Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Mar 1980

Vol. 318 No. 7

Financial Resolutions 1980. - Financial Resolution No. 19: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(Minister for Finance.)

When I reported progress before Question Time I was making the point that one of the major successes of the budget has been to deflect public attention and criticism from the cuts in the Estimates and the capital services. I was giving chapter and verse for that accusation from the public capital expenditure and current expenditure on education. I had not mentioned the fact that on the current side some of the most severe cuts would take place in the area of higher education in general and the universities in particular. The universities have been allocated about 5 per cent more in money terms on the college expenditure side in the Estimates than they were allocated in the previous year.

The irony here is that even a very sharp increase in university fees, which no doubt we can now expect, would not be enough of itself to cover the shortfall between what the Government are going to make available to universities this year and what they are going to have to spend to maintain their services at last year's level. The only option will be that the universities will have to cut their services and no parent of any child going to university, however much he may smile at his pay packet after this budget, can afford to look at it without looking also at what is going to be the effect on his child in third level education.

I was struck by one aspect of the Taoiseach's speech here this morning when he referred to services, the Public Capital Programme and the Estimates. Obviously replying to criticisms, which have been made very justifiably, he said in effect, that this year's allocations were—I hope I am not misquoting him—"sufficient to maintain existing services at a satisfactory level". That sentence would need to be parsed and analysed very carefully. He did not say that the allocations were sufficient to maintain existing services at existing levels. They are not. He said that they would be sufficient to maintain the existing services. Naturally, you can hardly close down a service wholesale, but to maintain them at a satisfactory level we must ask the question what is a satisfactory level?

What is satisfactory to the Taoiseach and to members of the Government may not be satisfactory to members of the public. The inference which it is legitimate to draw is that people are being asked now to accept less in the way of services than they got last year in order to pay partially for the income tax concessions which are being given in this budget. In all the important areas, such as local authority housing which has a cut in real terms on last year, education, which, if one ignores teachers' salaries, is cut also on last year, and no doubt health as well, the member of the public would have to realise that before he gets to the bank with whatever he has extra in his pay packet from the income tax concessions, he is going to be hijacked not once but twice, first by the VAT man and by the tradesman and other people who are selling him the things which are being taxed extra in this budget, and, secondly, by the Government, because if he wants to maintain the value of the services in these important areas such as housing, health and education, he will have to dip into his pocket to make good the deficiency which has been built into the Estimates and the capital programme. The confidence trick of the Government is that the ordinary punters are being led to believe that if they cut down a little bit on the drinks and smokes they will be able to keep all they get back in the way of the extra concession. To put it mildly what is not being emphasised—one might almost say it is being concealed—is that they will also have to dip into their pockets to pay extra for the services in these important areas that would otherwise have been provided for them at the last year's level. It is one thing to talk about discretionary expenditure in relation to drink, alcohol, betting and so on, but when you come to health, education and housing, different members of the public are in very different situations indeed when it comes to filling the chasm which widens in front of them as a result of this year's Estimates. That is the basis for the cynicism of this budget which does not—as Deputy de Valera's budget did in the olden days—merely take money out of one pocket and put it back into the other and charge for the privilege. It takes money out of the two of your pockets and puts it back into only one. The levels of investment in our social services that this Government consider satisfactory are not regarded as satisfactory by the people on these benches.

I turn now to taxation in more detail. I want to underline the fact that, whereas some of the comparatively modest claims that were made by the ICTU in their budget submissions have been met by this budget, the great majority of claims have not. I can identify them very easily for the benefit of the House. I have dealt already with the resource tax that has been proposed by the Government, but since this morning suddenly it has become seriously attenuated. Three of the most important sections of the ICTU's budget submissions dealt with capital taxation. They pointed out—the information came partly at least, from a Dáil question which I put down—that out of a total tax revenue of over £2 billion in 1979 capital taxes are expected to yield less than £15 million which is less than the figure for any of the four previous years. They say that this is wholly unacceptable. If that is wholly unacceptable how much more unacceptable is a budget which does not do anything positive in relation to increasing the yield from capital taxes and in fact lessens the yield from capital taxes in certain important respects?

It seems that nobody on the Government side of the House is prepared to accept that if you relax personal taxation in order to increase incentive, productivity and so on—and there are reasonable arguments for this—an essential concomitant of relief of income tax is a progressive system of taxation on accumulation of capital and wealth. Otherwise you are not encouraging initiative alone, you are encouraging accumulation, and almost inevitably the use of resources not in investment but in ostentation. I remember reading an article by Senator Whitaker in one of the Sunday papers not so long ago in which he referred very pointedly to the fact that as he saw it one of the main reasons for the tax grievances and for the tax marches was the very large perceived difference in lifestyle between some members of our society and other members. These differences in lifestyle are directly related to the absence of any effective capital taxation system. The ICTU say in No. 20 of their pre-budget submission, that something should be done about this. They specifically ask that the wealth tax be reintroduced, that the tax threshold applying to capital acquisitions tax and to capital gains tax should be reduced, certain exemptions amended and the rates of tax raised. They say that particularly short-term capital gains should be treated as income and taxed at the appropriate income tax rate. I was on the tax march and one placard out of every three asked the Government to bring back the wealth tax. If the Government think that these concessions relating only to income tax while doing nothing about capital taxation have satisfied the marchers they have another think coming.

A major aspect of the budget is the change to indirect taxation. I must pose some very serious questions about this. One of the exceptions I hold relates to smoking. We were rather surprised that this was not hit more heavily, even though people say that it is harder to give up smoking than to give up drinking. The Government chose to regard this as discretionary and I find it difficult to disagree with them. A minor item relates to the tax on cigarette lighters. I do not know who thought of that, but he has a splendid future in front of him either in the public service or in Government if he is on the Fianna Fáil benches. To have found something that was not taxed before, on which one can put a tax of 20 per cent to which nobody can object, is the mark of genius and I take off my hat to whoever it was.

One of the problems about the shift to indirect taxation is that we are already very heavily taxed indirectly. About 55 per cent of our total revenue comes from indirect taxation. This is one of the highest rates in the EEC. We already have one of the highest rates of VAT in the EEC. Indirect taxes, in some respects, especially where VAT and excise duties are concerned are open to evasion by many of the groups who avoid direct taxation. Indirect taxes are not related to ability to pay but one of the main reasons why I query this shift to indirect taxation is that although workers will continue to carry an unequal share of the tax burden, it is now harder to prove this. At least under the present income tax system, the unfair burden could be clearly shown.

How discretionary is expenditure on petrol? If one lives in Drogheda it is probably quicker to commute to the centre of the city than it is to get from parts of my constituency in south County Dublin. The Government's failure to adopt a rational comprehensive and co-ordinated transport policy means that for many people a car and petrol is not a luxury if they have to get to work. If the Government were serious about not wanting to pass this on to the general public in the form of rising prices and so on through industry they could have raised the VAT on petrol instead.

For large numbers of working people a modest amount of alcohol is fairly discretionary. Many people working in unpleasant surroundings, under considerable stress feel that a pint at the end of the day is as good any time as the business man's gin and topic, but the working man will have less to spend in terms of discretionary expenditure on his pint, for all the tax concessions, than the business man on his gin and tonic.

I was intrigued to hear the Taoiseach remark that the food subsidies were being retained. Anybody would think that the Taoiseach had introduced them and we were encouraged almost, to forget that a Fianna Fáil Government not only failed to introduce food subsidies but reduced their value by one-third since they came to office. This should not be forgotten and any attempt by the Government to further reduce these subsidies which unfortunately form a decreasing percentage of the price of some of the stable foods of large numbers of low income families, will be resisted from these benches.

In relation to income splitting the Government took their courage in both hands in going further than the Supreme Court wanted them, but it raises certain issues which have not apparently been considered. It makes it more likely that women in general, married women in particular, and married women in the lower income groups most of all, will tend to be forced out of employment and back into the home. In a socialist philosophy, in a socialist society, we believe in the equal division of labour both inside and outside the home. It is because I fear that the application of income splitting, unadorned by any serious consideration of some of the social consequences, may have this effect on female employment and on the right of women to work outside the home if they wish, that I must put a question mark against it. The incentives that income splitting provides are overwhelmingly in the region of those jobs where women are not only better paid but where their employment is better protected often by trade unions.

In relation to tax on businesses there has been a wholesale ignoring of the very modest requirements of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. In item No. 27 of their pre-budget submission they asked that steps be taken to ensure that the companies sector make a bigger contribution to tax revenue. This year corporation tax is expected to amount to £121 million which represents less than 6 per cent of central Government revenue. They also argue strongly for the need to review the various reliefs and allowances that have grown up during the years which companies can use to reduce their tax liability.

On capital taxation the budget provides three things: stock relief, a concession to be continued for a further year at the level which applied in 1979; a special incentive for manufacturing companies, again a concession which involves a special 25 per cent rate of corporation tax, to be extended to 1980 and the big attack on the world of the corporations in Ireland that the deduction for business entertainment expenses for tax purposes will be limited to 50 per cent. It is extraordinary that anybody can believe that this seriously represents any kind of an attempt to meet the justified call of the labour movement, inside and outside trade unions and on these benches, for a level of company taxation which comes close to meeting some kind of share of the profits they are making. We have the evidence of the Financial Executives Association, as quoted in The Irish Times of 4 December 1979, that there has been a boom in company liquidity or in the growth of company profits in recent years. Far from siphoning off anything from this boom the Government are giving even more away.

The Government are giving more away to the companies and the shareholders at a time when the introduction of new forms of technology make it all the more dangerously likely that these profits, in so far as they are not distributed in dividends, would be used to replace human labour with mechanical labour. Above all this is a time when the advent of new technology in general, and the microprocessor in particular, should be used by the Government as the excuse and the opportunity to bring in financial and fiscal legislation which would force companies to take a more realistic view of their responsibilities in the employment market. I do not believe that because the new technology may threaten some jobs we should never introduce it and no Member of these benches would take that view. However, we are concerned that the benefits of this new technology should be shared and the extra profits it creates should be used to create extra jobs in the service industry and not simply siphoned off into the pockets of directors and shareholders.

In relation to social welfare I should like to state that I do not believe that anyone in ICTU fully appreciated the levels that inflation would reach when they asked for a certain rise in the percentage of social welfare benefits. It is clear when one looks at that situation that we will be lucky if the increase given in the budget will match the inflation that will take place next year and the inflation that took place last year, which the budget increases also intended to cover. When this general approach to social welfare is set against the Taoiseach's action, when he was in charge of the Department concerned, of cutting the funds to the Committee on Poverty it can be said that, as far as Fianna Fáil are concerned, they do not care much if the poor are always with us.

I accept that we will always have relative poverty, that there will always be some people who will be relatively better off than others, but it should be part of the aim of any Government of this State to abolish absolute poverty. That can only be done if the Government have a clear sight of the structural causes of poverty in our society. The Committee on Poverty were doing that and are continuing to do so with limited resources. They are trying to analyse the structural causes of poverty in our society. It is because a clear analysis of this kind would threaten the interests represented on the Government benches that money is being denied.

In conclusion, I can only express the wish that the person who wrote the Taoiseach's speech had known a little more about some of the metaphors the Taoiseach was advised to use. In his peroration the Taoiseach referred to the ship of State and the ship of the economy and said, proudly, that in the months and years ahead he would keep her head to the wind. The Taoiseach does not know anything about sailing because if he did he would know that when one turns a boat's head into the wind she stops dead. The Taoiseach should stick to his horses.

I should like to congratulate the Minister for Finance on an extremely good budget. At least two Opposition Deputies told me last week that they found it very difficult to compose a speech criticising the Minister's first budget. They could not do so because what they wanted to see in the budget had been included. The newspapers, the community, the trade unions and PAYE taxpayers had been greatly concerned about taxation prior to the budget, but that was adequately dealt with by the Minister. I am aware that, irrespective of the good features of a budget, an Opposition feel obliged to tear it asunder just for the sake of criticising the Government. However, they cannot criticise the improvements in social welfare benefits or in income tax allowances.

This is the first time the women of Ireland have really benefited under the income tax code. I am aware that changes had to be made in the tax system because of a Supreme Court decision, but the Government extended that tax benefit to all married couples. As a result women who decide to remain at home to look after their children will benefit to the same extent as the women who decide to continue working. It pleases me to hear of women continuing their career after marriage and being able to bring home a decent pay packet every week or month. Before last Wednesday if a husband was being paid any sort of a decent wage she was stopped tax at the rate of 60 per cent. The result was that basically it was not worth while continuing to work after marriage.

I am very concerned about all affairs related to women in employment but I am old fashioned enough to express a preference for married women staying at home to look after their children until they reach a certain age. It is important that mothers should be at home in their children's formative years. I believe most Irish mothers would prefer to stay at home. The budget will benefit such people and will not make them feel inadequate when they hear of their working sisters continuing with their careers. The woman who stays at home will now feel more content.

To the best of my knowledge the trade unions only sought a 20 per cent increase in social welfare benefits but everybody was surprised to hear that they were being increased by 25 per cent in the budget. We are all aware that, even with that increase, benefits paid to pensioners, deserted wives, and widows are not enough. Even if we managed to increase those benefits by 100 per cent they would not be adequate.

On the question of widows and deserted wives, I am glad to note that so far as these people are concerned there will be an extra tax free allowance of £500 but, as I have said before here, I am concerned for widows and deserted wives who are left to rear young families. Usually they can cope fairly well until the children reach secondary school level at which stage the children of one-parent families are discriminated against because their mothers are not usually in a position to send the children to third-level educational institutions whereas if the fathers were there and bringing in incomes the situation would be different. Not many widows or deserted wives are in the position of being able to send children to third-level institutions. I hope that in another budget this sort of situation will be catered for in the sense that the third-level education fees will be covered in full in regard to the children of one-parent families and that any other possible help will be put at their disposal.

The greater problem in the city area is that of housing. Yesterday I attended a meeting of representatives from UCD and TCD at which was discussed the accommodation problems of students in Dublin. It is very difficult for the local authority in Dublin to cope with the influx of people to the city in so far as housing is concerned. Some years ago the students coming to Dublin to attend university would have been content to go into lodgings, to live with families, or to stay in a hostel, but that is no longer the case. Students coming to Dublin now are seeking flats. They look for accommodation in which they can be free to study without distraction. However, this trend takes from the housing stock in the city. Up to a couple of years ago young married couples would have been likely to live in flats for a few years and until such time as they had got together enough money for a deposit on a house or until they qualified for a local authority house. Now, however, there are not flats available for married couples. I am not saying that the number of flats occupied otherwise is colossal but the position is that the occupation of these flats by students is taking from the housing stock for married couples. Consequently these young couples seek corporation housing with the result that the situation is very difficult for the local authority.

We are building as many houses this year as have ever been built in any year, but the problem is the increase in the number of people seeking local authority housing. The first reason for this situation is the considerable improvement that has been brought about generally in the past decade whereby more young people are being employed gainfully at relatively high wages than was the case before. In addition, they are marrying at an earlier age with the result that we are finding it increasingly difficult to cope with the extra numbers on the housing list.

Since our young employed people have got such a good deal in terms of taxation in that they are being allowed earn a fair amount of money more before being eligible for income tax, with the result that their take home pay will be much improved, I trust that they will be encouraged to start saving for the time when they wish to buy houses of their own. I know that there is advertising on TV to so encourage these young people. However, we should go even further and launch a very strong campaign on the lines that since young people will now have a good deal more money in their pockets they should begin saving for their own homes. They should be encouraged to begin their saving not when they are engaged to be married but long before then, in fact from the time they enter employment.

Everybody knows that we are in a very difficult economic situation and that sacrifices are demanded of all of us. But I do not consider any sacrifice should be involved in so far as people may find it necessary to have fewer drinks than before, to smoke a little less than before or not to use their cars as frequently as they used them before for short journeys such as to the church or to the shops. While Deputy Flynn was speaking today there was an exchange across the floor about the horse and cart. A couple of Sundays ago I witnessed a beautiful sight when I saw a family going to Mass in a pony and trap.

Would that have been in Ballyfermot?

It was in Walkinstown, which is only a five-minute journey from Ballyfermot. That was a sight that I had not seen for years. I envied those people. I do not know how they accommodate the horse but they are to be congratulated. Perhaps we should revert a little more to this sort of transport. It is too easy for us to use our cars. Not even the traffic jams in the city deter us from using them.

Much has been said about increased taxation on some commodities. While I do not wish to go into more detail in regard to figures, I mention merely that I welcome the increases in respect of the low-mortgage scheme loan from £9,000 to £12,000 and also the increase of the same order in respect of the SDA loan. In addition, the income limit has been increased from £4,000 to £5,500. However, this is not yet enough and I should like the figure to be reviewed again within the next year if possible. On the other hand, house prices have stabilised during the last year. At least the increases in value have not been anything of the order of the previous year. I urge as many people as possible to take advantage of the improved situation in regard to loans and income limits and to try to buy their own houses. A start on the purchase of a house will be of benefit to a married couple throughout their lives. It is sad if young couples have to live with in-laws. As well as being devastating for them, there is an imposition on the parents who should be enjoying peace and quiet in their own homes. It is appalling for a young couple, perhaps with two young children, to have to live with their in-laws. Therefore, I consider it a priority to try to create a situation in which these young couples could have their own accommodation. It is extremely difficult to provide a £20,000 house for a married couple with one child. Would it be possible to provide short-term accommodation for these couples? It is extremely difficult for young married couples to live with their in-laws. If these young couples were given short-term accommodation it could mean peace in both homes.

No Government can be successful without the co-operation of the people. The people must be happy. They must realise that the Government are doing their best and that they are compassionate and caring. They must realise we care for our old people, and they should help the Government by also caring for the aged. The Taoiseach, when Minister for Health, more than once said communities should participate in the care of the old, the infirm and the disabled. When the people see that the Government are looking after the aged they will respond.

I have no objection to the increases in the price of alcoholic drinks but I was disappointed with the tax on soft drinks, because when young people meet in a disco or a pub they must have a glass in front of them. If the price of soft drinks was very far below that of alcoholic drink, I imagine they would choose soft drinks more often. If there is very little difference in the prices they would probably take alcoholic drinks. I do not know if the Minister could reconsider this tax at this stage, but he might encourage young people to stay off alcoholic drinks by reducing the tax on soft drinks.

I am extremely worried about the drinking patterns of our young people. They seem to have plenty of money. It is not unusual to see a group buying five or six rounds of small drinks for themselves in the course of an hour or two. I hope the increases in the price of alcoholic drinks will discourage this trend.

As I said, this is an extremely good budget. I was criticised about my remarks on farmers' tax last Wednesday. If I seemed to be harsh to the farmers. I am sorry. No matter what tax is mentioned the farmers' spokesmen immediately rebel and say it is a penal tax and they will not have it. All the PAYE workers wanted was to see a fair distribution of tax and they had a very good case. About 100,000 PAYE workers marched through the streets. It was better to have 100,000 people marching for that reason than to have 100,000 unemployed marching. These people were all working.

This time last year I spoke to a very well known spokesman for the farmers. I asked him to arrange a meeting with farming interests so that city Deputies could understand the farmers' problems and why the farmers do not want this tax or that tax to be imposed. He said he would arrange such a meeting, but nothing happened. In the last few days I spoke to another member of the farming community and said the same thing. I am very grateful to him for organising such a meeting; and any city Deputy who wants to hear the farmers' point of view will be very welcome at this meeting which I hope will be in the near future. As a Dublin Deputy I am not familiar with farming problems, but I know the problems of the PAYE workers. They were very heavily taxed on overtime and that tax was stopped at source.

As I said, this is an extremely good budget. I sympathise with the Opposition who are finding it very difficult to criticise it. They have to criticise; that is what politics are all about. In my view, this budget will work very well.

I can assure Deputy Lemass that it is not very difficult to criticise this budget. It was interesting to hear her pay tribute to the people with ponies and traps. Fianna Fáil would be prepared to welcome anything that would avoid embarrassment. I cannot see many Fianna Fáil Deputies going around Dublin in a pony and trap. She mentioned the aged and the underprivileged. If Fianna Fáil had any sympathy in their hearts for the old and the poorer sections of the community they would not be prepared to go into the lobby at the first opportunity to vote for the abolition of food subsidies.

When the budget was introduced I thought there was a certain amount of good in it. I agree that some of the provisions will be of benefit, but with the epidemic of prices increases any good in the budget will have been eroded by the time it reaches the would-be recipients. Therefore, the budget is a damp squib. We have had three years of price increases under Fianna Fáil and it leaves us doubting if they have any control over prices. They abolished the food subsidies although their 1977 manifesto told us how they would control prices when Fianna Fáil were given control of the economy.

When the National Coalition were in office the then Opposition told us that inflation was not imported but had been brought about by the inherent weakness of the Coalition Government. The present Government have a majority of 19 and what have they achieved in three years? There have been price increases and industrial unrest, everything that would lead to national bankruptcy. Since the budget we have had speeches by Fianna Fáil Deputies to the effect that international recession has caused a deterioration in our economy. It is nice to hear them say so now because three years ago the man who is now Taoiseach said from this side of the House that inflation was the sign of a weak Government, that if Fianna Fáil were in office everything would be OK. What has happened? Fianna Fáil have been three years in office. They have abolished food subsidies and have thus increased the prices of bread, butter, gas and numerous other commodities.

It is true to say that social welfare benefits have been increased, but was it not time to look after the underprivileged? They are entitled to these increases because in the past two years they have been left behind on the breadline. Many of our underprivileged children are in hospital because of lack of nourishment. Most of the relief being given in this budget to PAYE workers will have been eroded before it reaches them. How does anybody expect a family of four or five children to live on £50 or £60 a week? Why are they forced to live on such amounts?

The Minister said that between 1975 and 1978 farmers' incomes rose by more than 70 per cent but they have fallen by 4 per cent in this year. Was that why he imposed extra taxes on them in this budget? Is that why the agricultural grant has been abolished? I wonder what would have happened in this respect if 1979 had not been a bad year.

In 1978 the Minister for the Environment issued his famous document limiting increases in rates to 10 per cent. He said that people who did not derive benefit from the abolition of domestic rates were entitled to be protected from additional rates. What has happened since? Farmers have had their rates almost trebled. In other words they are subsidising domestic householders. When we were in Government we made provision in 1977 to reduce rates by 25 per cent, the Exchequer to bear the loss. Now we have levies on farmers which will mean substantial increases, and I cannot see how farmers will meet them. I come from Limerick where we have a number of large farmers, but there are many small farmers there who are finding it difficult to survive. I believe the Government will not be successful in getting the £6 million they are expecting from the farmers. It must be remembered that the people directly associated with agriculture are not the only people who make their living from agriculture; there are many thousands of others working in the processing services and that will be a danger to employment. I can foresee unemployment rising this year and the Government are doing very little about it.

When we speak about the amount of money paid by farmers we are told it is for services. I am sure there are many rural Deputies who find it very difficult at present to drive along country roads because they are full of potholes, rendering them unsafe even for school children and that is no exaggeration; they are like Beecher's Brook. Yet we are being told we cannot exceed 10 per cent. What are we supposed to do with our roads? Are our people entitled to any service? Quite recently I was approached by a constituent on a very limited income who had damaged his car on one such road, when one of his children was thrown against the windscreen because he ran into one of these famous potholes known as the environmental potholes down the country. In his case there is no compensation forthcoming. This is what we are asked to put up with; this is the type of progress we are supposed to be making. Where is the progress? At present there are many housing schemes before the Minister for the Environment in regard to my county in respect of which there will not be approval of allocations.

I am glad to see the Minister of State opposite writing because there are a lot of things he will have to write down. He is placed in that seat because it would be difficult and embarrassing for others to occupy it. I sympathise with him. At heart I believe he is a good-natured, honest man, but he will find it very difficult to tell our farmers why they have not proper roads on which to travel.

There are cut-backs in all of the services. I was reading in the Minister's brief reference to industrial disputes and the amount of man-days lost in 1978 and 1979. When the Taoiseach was picking his new Cabinet he reinstated the Minister for Labour. In fairness to the man, in view of the way he acted in 1978 and 1979. I ask the House why was he reinstated. The disputes that lasted for so long made it almost impossible and most embarrassing to make a telephone call, post a letter or whatever in the communications field. Bearing this in mind how can we expect tourists to come here? How can we expect industrialists to come when we have not proper roads, are unsure of our telephone service and, if we do have telephones, they are not automatic? Even in the capital city of my county we do not have automatic telephones and, as a result of lack of service, we have lost industry after industry. The first question any foreign industrialist will ask is whether there are adequate communications. There is no use in Ministers or Fianna Fáil Deputies going down the country, carrying on a whispering campaign that, now that Professor O'Donoghue has been demoted, all will be well. Recently at a cumann meeting in my constituency a decent Fianna Fáil man was told by a Minister of State——

No, we would know the Minister of State present in the House, though we would know the other Minister as well. That Minister told that man and a number of other people present that, now that we were rid of Deputy O'Donoghue all would be well. I understand that the new procedure is to have changes of Ministers every year. The former Minister for Finance has gone; the present Minister, Deputy O'Kennedy, will probably be gone before the next change of government. In these circumstances one can always blame former office holders for being responsible for mistakes made but that now one has the right man. We are asked to believe now that we have a new Government. We have no new Government, only a rehash of the existing personnel, who I believe to be a weak team. But perhaps a weak team is important to the Taoiseach because they will act to him, as do ventriloquists' puppets. When he pulls the string they will jump, because that is exactly what the Taoiseach is doing. Indeed, I am looking forward to the time in the near future when Ministers may well change again. It is very difficult now to pin down blame or to know who to criticise.

Would the Deputy please get back to the budget? We dealt with Ministers at length a few weeks ago.

I am with the budget. I am sorry, sir, this is the first time I have slipped up. I shall not delay the House much longer because I know there are other Deputies anxious to speak.

In fairness, with no criticism meant of the Minister of State present, we have experienced in the past three years the worst government we have ever had. That is said not alone by us but by Fianna Fáil people within their own party. As a result of what was known as the tug-of-war for power in the past three years our economy suffered; there is no doubt about it, no interest was taken in our economy but rather in power, when the party opposite had vindictive attitudes to one another from which this nation is now suffering. I look forward to the day when the Taoiseach will go to the country and give the people an opportunity to tell him what they told him in Cork City and in North-East Cork.

I have listened with interest to the comments of Opposition Deputies on the budget. But during all the time I have been here I have not heard one Fine Gael or Labour Deputy put forward a constructive argument, or say what they would do in our present economic circumstances. I should like to hear from those benches what they would do with our economy. It is all very well to comment here, contending it is not right, maintaining that the various proposals contained in the budget are not the proper ones but both Labour and Fine Gael have a duty to tell the House what they would do. They have not done that. Even the leaders of both parties have not. It is well known that the finances of the country have to be put in shape. We are setting about doing that now. Some of the measures we had to take were not of a pleasant nature but as a Government we have to face up to that.

It is well known that the employment situation has improved enormously. Let there be no doubt about that. Jobs are available for most people who want work but in some areas where employment was offered to certain individuals they refused it. I know that they have that right and we respect that. There is no use in saying that there is no work here or there. As regards the live register, which is the number of people who are supposed to be unemployed, there are a lot of people on that who are in employment and doing nixers and using the maximum know-how—in other words, exploiting the system we have. No one can deny that that is going on. I regret to say that all taxpayers have to prop this up.

Will the Deputy give their names to the Minister for Social Welfare?

A lot of people know about this and so does the Deputy.

I do not know of a single case.

We want to get our facts right in regard to who is unemployed and who is not. I am satisfied that the number of people on the register do not match those really looking for employment. A lot of them do not want employment and do not make any effort to get it. Some people who are offered employment refuse it.

As regards the tax situation, it has been said that we are forced into the position we are now in by the court ruling. For some time I was unhappy with the system we had. I admit that we were burdened with a big share of that amount and I am now glad that action has been taken on it. We have a long way to go yet. It is something that cannot be overhauled overnight. I come from a rural area and know a good deal about farmer taxation. I am a farmer and farmers know well that they have to pay their fair share of tax. The tax on land valuation is of a temporary nature only until a commission sits on the matter and reports to the Government. The farming community knew of our proposals in regard to taxation quite well. Farming organisations were unable to agree among themselves on the type of tax they wanted and they told me so. One organisation wanted it one way and the other wanted it another way.

They did it the Fianna Fáil way.

We will always do it our way. The previous speaker spoke about housing. Last year we honoured our commitments in full in regard to local authority houses and private housing. I am satisfied that we will be able to meet it again this year. We have increased the loans for new housing from £9,000 to £12,000. The income limit has risen from £4,000 to £5,500. Some people say that is not enough. Deputy Fitzpatrick complained about the weekly repayments on this amount. What way do we want it? We cannot have it every way.

Control the price of housing and the Minister will have it.

My Department are keeping a close watch on that under the CRV. Some people say that we are too strict about this. We cannot pave it every way. In regard to improvements on houses we have increased the loan and the income limit.

They are no longer there.

We also increased the limit on unsecured loans. We cannot have it every way.

The Minister told us that already.

It is good to remind the Deputy. Remember what the loans were on new houses two and a half years ago. One would have wanted to be on pauper's wages to get a loan.

What was the price of a house then?

Let us face the facts. It is a long time since we raised it from £4,500 to £12,000 and the income limit at the time was £2,150. It is now £5,000.

It was £2,350.

Deputy O'Brien has had his chance to speak. He had an hour and did not make it so he should not interrupt.

Can we have a House to hear the Minister?

Are Deputies asking me to call a House?

Deputies

No.

I thought they might want a House—that would be interesting.

The Minister does not know the kind of House he is looking for.

There is no point in anyone saying that we have not improved the loans for new houses. Earlier Deputies spoke about local authorities and the 10 per cent ceiling we put on county councils. A number of people I have been speaking to have been glad that we did this because they say if we had not done that what would have happened? The rates might go up substantially on farming, on business and people liable for rates——

They have gone up.

I have a 10 per cent ceiling but how would local authorities behave if they got a free hand?

They are responsible—

I never interrupted the Deputy.

That is true and I am sorry.

Debate adjourned.
Barr
Roinn