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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Mar 1980

Vol. 318 No. 7

Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 1980: Committee and Final Stages.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."

The Minister, when replying to the Second Stage debate, said that the last Government brought in an embargo on recruitment in the Civil Service and that this was responsible for the cutting back on services. I would think that for a Minister of any Government to say that there is an open door for public service recruitment and wage increases is most irresponsible, especially when the cost of public service pay in 1980 is going to run to 50 per cent of the amount of the current budget. Recruitment in the public service was certainly given free rein during 1978 and 1979. If it is not cut back in 1980 there will be a cut-back in services because too much of the amount provided in the Estimates will be eaten up by wage increases and there will be nothing left, as in the case pointed out by Deputy John Bruton in a speech he made about three weeks ago, where the Land Commission, after they had paid wages and everything else for 1980 will have £10 left to buy land. That is not servicing the ordinary people of the country.

Obviously we need a civil service, a well paid civil service; I do not mind saying that. We need an efficient civil service, but we cannot have a level of recruitment into the civil service that unbalances that provided outside the civil service. That is a self-evident fact. To plead, as the Minister appeared to be doing a moment ago, that it was a mark of their good Government that they have recruited heavily into the service and given wage increases does not strike me as responsible or something that any Minister in Ireland or anywhere else in the world should be boasting about. The public service has a role to play. The level of pay in the public service should be high in comparison with that outside it but one cannot unbalance the very delicate level of what the private sector can afford to pay in taxes to support the public service. If that is over-balanced in favour of the public service then we are going to have the type of tax revolt experienced over the last 12 months. It is the level of tax that people are paying that is causing the unrest here and those taxes are being paid to provide services and wages for the public service. If too much is demanded, as I believe is the case now with 50 per cent of the current budget going to pay for the estimate of the current side of the budget, then we are in danger of becoming unbalanced.

Another point made by the Minister was about the criteria which the Taoiseach would apply to the five new appointments he is going to make. Let me put it like this. I certainly should have said that Deputy Seán Calleary is exempted from any criticisms I may have had; I have always found him to be intelligent and concerned and hard working. I am sure the Taoiseach will apply the same criteria to the five new appointments as he did to the appointment of this Government and to the appointment of the Ministers of State before Christmas.

Let me say, for the sake of the record of the House that Deputy Barry appears to be putting words in my mouth that I never said. What I said was that the results of the embargo were evident. I agree entirely with the need for balance but the balance must be two ways. The balance must be such as to ensure that services are kept at an adequate level to service our public, taking into account the entire cost and particularly the cost of a structural economy such as ours. What I was referring to was the fact that Deputy Kelly claimed with pride something that I believed had done tremendous harm at the time, that is, in relation to the embargo and the subsequent special pay increases. That caused many more problems in later years than when it was imposed.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."

Where is it stated in the Bill that in future the Minister for Labour will be the Minister for the Public Service?

We are dealing with the matter in section 7.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Will the Minister tell the House the purpose of the section?

The purpose of this and following sections is to update legislation that existed with regard to Parliamentary Secretaries in relation to Ministers of State now. For example, section 4 refers to a Minister resigning his office and it sets out how he may do so. The legal advice we received was that when we were bringing in this legislation we should make the necessary amendments and tidy up the legal technicalities.

I accept what the Minister has said but I cannot see the necessity to put a section into a Bill as to how a person may walk out of his job.

If the person in office did not write a letter to the Taoiseach, does that mean he has not resigned?

Obviously this was found necessary when legislation was introduced with regard to Parliamentary Secretaries. There is no formal provision at present for the resignation of a Minister of State and, as we were introducing this Bill, the legal advice was that we should tidy up that area.

I have asked the Minister what would be the position if the person in office did not submit a letter. It seems an extraordinary situation to me.

The Constitution makes a provision regarding how a Minister should resign but no such provision exists for a Minister of State. The argument the Deputy has made could apply equally to a Minister.

No, because a Minister is appointed by the President. It is a different matter.

The Constitution decrees that he must hand in his seal of office.

A Minister of State does not have a seal of office.

That is so. At the moment there is no way set out with regard to the resignation of a Minister of State——

He could walk out the door.

I am surprised at a responsible individual such as the Deputy suggesting that any politician would act in that informal or disorganised manner.

I agree it is not a major point.

It is desirable that there be some order in the matter.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 5.

What is involved here?

For example, where a Minister is ill temporarily, another Minister may be appointed to take charge of the Department. This section is providing for the Minister of State to carry on in his capacity.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 6 agreed to.
SECTION 7.
Question proposed: "That section 7 stand part of the Bill."

As a result of the rearrangement of the Government before Christmas, the Minister for Labour will now be Minister for the Public Service. I think that is a more sensible arrangement than that existing heretofore when the Department of the Public Service was connected with the Department of Finance. At the time I would probably have thought it better to have the Department of the Public Service tied in with the Department of Finance but it does not appear to have worked. I know many other Departments considered that financial considerations took precedence in the activities of the Department of the Public Service. However, I may change my mind about the desirability of having the Department connected with the Department of Labour. I think I am correct in assuming that if there were to be a change in the future there would be no necessity for new legislation? I think the position is that it can be assigned to any Minister.

I thank the Deputy for his remarks. Although the new measure cannot be regarded as a panacea for solving all problems, I agree with the Deputy's comments. The purpose of this Bill is to repeal section 3 of the 1973 Act which stipulated that the Minister for Finance shall be the Minister for the Public Service. No longer does the Minister for the Public Service have to be the Minister for Finance.

Neither does he have to be the Minister for Labour. I presume Deputy Calleary will be taking over the day-to-day running of the Department as Deputy MacSharry did and I should like to congratulate him. I wish to assure him of our co-operation where it is not political.

I thank the Deputy.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 8 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment and passed.
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