The Deputy will have ten minutes and the Minister will have five minutes to reply.
Adjournment Debate. - Wandering Animals.
I am thankful to you, a Cheann Comhairle, for allowing me to raise this matter. When I raised the question it seemed to be taken by Members of the House as a joke but it is far from being a joke in the perimeter between Dublin city and county where it has been of grave concern for a long time. There was an instance where a horse jumped over a fence on to the bonnet of a car and wrecked and ruined the car. The legal result was that the motorist was responsible because the accident occurred on the road and he injured the animal, and he was liable for any costs.
Within the last week a collision between a motor-cyclist and a wandering horse resulted in the death of the motor-cyclist. This is a very serious matter. As the law stands at the moment, in cases of collision between a third party and a stray animal the onus is on whoever the party may be, generally a motorist, if he happens to collide with the animal on the road. Not alone is the motorist not guaranteed any recompense but he is liable for any injury caused to the animal.
At the moment in cases of animals found wandering on the road the fines are completely unrealistic. The Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1851, lays down that the maximum fine that can be imposed is two shillings. Everybody here realises how much two shillings is worth today. It may have been worth something in 1851. There is a later Act under which these charges can be brought and which provides a maximum fine of £6. However, we have consulted with the Garda and they have told us that they are reluctant to bring charges under this Act because they have to prove that there has been negligence on the part of the owner before they can get a conviction. Naturally if someone has been negligent and has allowed animals to wander for a year or two or three and no accident has ever occurred, he is not going to go forward and say that this has been a habitual thing. Therefore, the Garda find that it is nearly impossible to get a conviction under this Act whereas it is possible to get a conviction under the 1851 Act. But the maximum fine imposed in that Act is two shillings and one Justice threw a case out of court, saying that he would refuse to hear it because of the unrealistic fine.
I could go into several other matters but because we had a vote tonight we are very limited in time. I do not want to make political capital out of this. This matter concerns my constituency of Dublin-Finglas and it may concern Ballyfermot and other areas also which border on the city. I am going to give some of the time allowed to me to my colleague, Deputy B. Ahern, who is also a Deputy for my area on the Government side.
I thank my colleague on the opposite side for giving me the time. As everybody probably knows from reading the papers, the problem with stray horses is that, apart from three or four accidents which caused deaths in the last year, the legislation which covers it goes back to the days of the cowboys in 1851, 1861 and 1870 when the city was a big open place with corrals at every house and there was no need to have a proper place for horses. There is the 1851 Act, the 1961 Traffic Act and so on but the only Act we are talking about in this regard is that of 1935 which enables the Minister to act. Section 2 (1) of this Act says:
Every local authority shall provide in the functional area of such authority such pounds as the county registrar shall, with the approval of the Minister, direct either generally or in any particular case, and every local authority shall maintain in accordance with this Act every pound provided by them under this Act.
Dublin, a city with a million people, has only one pound located in Rathfarnham and a corral in Coolock which does not operate and this proves that the local authorities of Dublin city and county are not doing their job. Will the Minister direct the local authorities to stop allowing people to die? Apart from the problem of animals straying through gardens, there are derbys through the streets in Deputy Belton's and my constituency as well as in other constituencies. The local authorities should stop saying that it is the job of the Minister for Justice or the Minister for the Environment. They should take action under the 1935 Act where it clearly states that the Minister has powers. They have been asked to act on this but they have not done so.
Will the Minister instruct local authorities to act under this 1935 Act? It should then be an easy job to put heavy fines and proper poundage charges on all these wandering animals. Very little can be done at the moment when there are not any places to lock them up. It is not a function of the Garda authorities because they have too many other problems. The 1935 Act clearly sets out the functions of local authorities in relation to doing their job properly in this matter. There is land all over the north side of Dublin where such pounds could be provided. Deputy Belton and I have raised this matter on many occasions with the local authorities. It is only with reluctance that we have brought the matter into this House because we have failed to get the local authorities to do anything.
I wish to thank Deputy Luke Belton and Deputy Bertie Ahern for their contribution this evening on this subject. I would like to assure Deputy Belton that I did not regard it as funny when he gave notice this morning that he intended raising this matter. I believe it was the most important thing that was raised during the first 45 minutes of our debates this morning.
I fully accept that tragic circumstances have prompted this debate and I sympathise with the family and the relatives of Mr. Sheehan, who lost his life recently as a result of an accident with one of these wandering horses. The problem of wandering horses has been with us, unfortunately, for a very long time and we seem to be going around in circles in relation to it. There is no easy solution; if there was I would like to assure the Deputies that legislative and administrative measures would have been introduced a long time ago to eliminate it.
There are two sides to this particular problem, the criminal side and the civil side. There are a number of bodies with responsibility in this area. There has been a certain amount of buck passing here and nobody wants to tackle the problem.
We have the local authorities, who carry the main responsibility and, as was said, are not playing their part in this particular area. The Department of the Environment have an involvement here and the Department of Justice and the Garda Siochána also have an involvement. In fact, I wonder why I should be dealing with this debate tonight but the position is that, seemingly, I should be the person to deal with it. I come into the picture largely because of my overall responsibility in relation to the discharge of their duties by the Garda Siochána.
The position in so far as the Garda authorities are concerned is that where it is possible to do so they impound wandering animals in local pounds. In this city there is one pound in Rathfarnham and there was a sort of pound in Coolock, which is no longer functioning.
In cases where it is possible for the Garda to identify the owners of the animals, which of course is extremely difficult, they prosecute them for obstruction of traffic contrary to Section 98 of the Road Traffic Act 1961, but that is a very rare thing. The rounding up of wandering horses, rodeo-style, in this day and age should not be a function of the Garda Siochána. I am convinced, and I am sure Deputy Ahern and Deputy Belton are equally convinced, that the Garda have more than enough on their plate in trying to tackle crime and vandalism in this city without having to go around like cowboys rounding up horses. I am sure the Deputies agree with me that this job is appropriate to the local authorities and to people who can be employed by them to do this type of work.
The local authorities should provide proper transport facilities to move these wandering animals to the pounds. The traffic is bad enough in this city and in every city and town in Ireland without having these horses causing grave annoyance to people. These horses cannot be driven through the streets. The Garda are already stretched to the limit of their resources in fighting crime and doing other more important work.
The provision of pounds is a matter for local authorities. They have not been as attentive to the discharge of their responsibilities in this regard as they might have been. I got an up to date report from the Garda today on the situation in the area which has been covered here by Deputy Belton and Deputy Ahern and I was told that there is a very big problem there. They also said that the Superintendent in K Division, which covers this particular area, has been negotiating with Dublin Corporation for the last ten years for a pound but has failed to get one from them. I have powers under the 1935 Act. I am sure any Member of the House would hate having to use those powers but I have no option at this stage. I am quite prepared to use those powers. I have requested, and now, I am afraid, I will have to direct Dublin Corporation to provide proper facilities not just in Finglas but in Coolock and other areas because the number of these animals—more than horses are involved—is increasing. Dublin Corporation will have to face up to their responsibilities in providing the pounds that are necessary and in providing the work force which is required—on a full-time basis—to man those pounds. If it is necessary for the Garda to give protection to the people manning those pounds—because in the past they have been badly treated and beaten up—then the Garda will play their part. County councils must be made to provide the facilities. I will give Members of this House, who are members of local authorities, every possible help to try to do something worthwhile about this matter.
I assure Deputy Belton that in my own city of Limerick it is also a problem. It is also a problem in Cork and in many towns throughout the county. It is not just in the Finglas/Blanchardstown area but also right around the city of Dublin that public money is being ploughed in to make the areas in question look nice and tidy and those horses are driven in—sometimes in a well organised fashion—and they destroy everything they come in contact with. People are helpless. We should be prepared to call a spade a spade at this late stage. If I have to direct Dublin Corporation or Dublin County Council or any other corporation or county council to do what is expected of them, I am quite prepared to do it. I will this week or very early next week direct Dublin Corporation with whatever statutory powers I have under the Pounds (Provision and Maintenance) Act, 1935, to do what they should have done within the last ten years when we have failed in negotiations to get pounds.
I recently met an all-party deputation from Limerick city, which is bedevilled by this problem. As a result of that deputation, I have agreed to increase substantially the poundage fees to cover the full costs of running the pounds, which would help the local authorities to get over any financial problems which might be there in this regard. I refer to fees which will cover not just feeding but also transport costs to get those animals to the pounds. We should face up to this problem, which is not the hardest one to face up to, and say that we will tackle it through the local authorities and not be trying to depend on the overstretched force of the Garda Siochána to try to do work which they have not time to do or should not be asked to do.
I thank the Minister for his approach in relation to this matter. I understand that the Law Reform Commission have now recommended an updating of the fines and a more realistic approach.
That is on the civil side of it and has nothing to do with the fines. It is for damages and things like that. It is the civil side of the problem. They have only produced a working paper and have not come up with any recommendations.
Have they issued a final report?
Not yet. I am not prepared to wait for anything further from the Law Reform Commission on this. I am waiting almost three years for work from them. I am quite prepared to do something about this matter now.
The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 17 April 1980.