Deputy Griffin is in possession and has 26 minutes left. I am sorry, I thought the Deputy was here. I will wait for him.
Private Members' Business - Council for Adult Education in Ireland Bill, 1980: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
I must apologise for inattendance but I had anticipated a vote.
That was the fault of the Whips.
Last evening in the few moments at my disposal before reporting progress I congratulated Deputy E. Collins on his initiative in introducing to this House such a fine Bill. There is grave need for such a Bill. There is a void in our educational system this Bill attempts to fill.
On a point of order, is it in order to continue without a Minister or Minister of State in the House?
I understand the Minister will be back in a moment. It is not a matter for the Chair who is on the front bench on either side of the House. Deputy Griffin to continue.
I had congratulated Deputy E. Collins in filling this very obvious need.
On a point of order, might I hear the Chair's ruling again about the presence of a member of the Government.
The Chair has no responsibility in this matter. It is general, and the Chair thinks it is general for a Minister or Minister of State to remain on the front bench; but the Chair has no power in the matter and generally the House proceeds even for a short time until the Minister returns. I understand that the Minister will be here in a moment.
The Minister will not be more than a minute.
In the circumstances I feel I should call for a quorum.
I am sorry, Deputy, a quorum cannot be sought in Private Members' Time. Deputy Griffin to proceed.
I must say it is surprising with half the Fianna Fáil Party appointed as Ministers.
This is in accordance with Standing Orders?
The Minister for Education will not be more than a minute.
Yes, under Standing Orders. The Chair has no power in the matter, no power to suspend the House in a situation of this kind.
I was willing when the Minister of State was here to come in and I deliberately did not rise. Deputy Griffin was not available in the House——
Sorry, Deputy Murphy; Deputy Griffin to proceed.
He did apologise when he came in and let us not make an issue of it.
We are not going to argue about what happened.
There was a ruling from the Chair prior to Deputy C. Murphy coming into the House——
The Chair decided to await Deputy Griffin for a moment——
——when Deputy Griffin was called at 7 o'clock.
No, that was a misunderstanding due to the lack of a vote in respect of which Deputy L'Estrange let us all down. Deputy Griffin to continue please.
I compliment Deputy E. Collins on his work, initiative and industry in producing for the benefit of this House such a fine Bill to fill a very obvious void in our educational system. He has gone about it in a positive, practical and constructive way. He could have approached it in a negative way, asking the Minister why he was not producing such a Bill. But to avoid that type of a situation Deputy E. Collins, after months of research, hard work and industry, put this splendid Bill before us.
In his opening remarks last evening Deputy Collins gave us the obvious reasons for the need for such a Bill. I was disappointed at the attitude of the Minister when he felt that he could not accept this Bill, saying that he would vote against it. In his reply the Minister referred to the Vocational Education Act of 1930. That to me was the Minister hiding behind a 50 year old Act, which is reprehensible.
While that legislation introduced in the 1930s has withstood the test of time it cannot be expected to meet the needs of the 1980s as we move closer to the 21st century. Even after careful perusal of that Act I failed to find any reference to the term "adult education". There was reference to "continuation education" and to "technical education" but none, as far as I could find, to "adult education" and I would be obliged if the Minister would tell me if he can find any such reference. That 1930 Act was never envisaged or intended to carry on, promote, or assist adult education as it has developed since the 1930s.
Here I am not decrying the splendid work of the VECs. Indeed it is a fitting tribute to the then Minister for Education that an Act introduced by him should be relied on by the present Minister for Education, some 50 years later, in the task of providing adult education. I am fully aware of the splendid work being done by the VECs throughout the country as I have been for the past 15 years a member of South Tipperary Vocational Education Committee. I know at first-hand the splendid work they have done in their schools, particularly in the adult education field. I am in no way critical of that work, of any of the other VECs throughout the country, or of the other splendid voluntary bodies who over the years have served our adult population well.
At this stage, however, we feel something more is needed in the development of Irish education. What is proposed here by Deputy Collins is the formation of a Council for Adult Education, a body that would co-ordinate, regularise and unify all of the splendid organisation and effort at present being put into adult education.
The Minister is afraid of new structures. He is afraid that this new council will cost quite a lot of money. Any money spent in the setting up of this or a similar council would be well spent because he would have an overall umbrella organisation, watchful and careful of moneys being dispensed. They would be formulating a policy for all the Republic and there would be no wasteful duplication of effort, time or money.
I am disappointed that the Minister in his reply did not indicate to this House that he or his Department were thinking of initiating somewhat similar legislation. Like all Bills first introduced, this is not perfect in every sense, but it could be amended. I have no doubt that Deputy E. Collins would be in agreement with any amendments put forward by the Minister and by Members of the Labour Party so that in the final analysis we would have some Bill to cater for this new development in adult education. That there is need for such a council is beyond all doubt and I have no doubt that the Minister is fully aware of that very fine report of the committee chaired by Con Murphy entitled Adult Education in Ireland, published in 1973. This committee sought reports and submissions from many organisations and towards the end of their report are listed five or six pages of reputable organisations fully representative of all sections of Irish industrial, cultural and educational life making submissions to this committee appointed by the then Minister for Education.
Is the Minister now going to turn his back on these submissions and on the Murphy report? Surely there should be some continuity in a Department of Education. Ministers for Education come and go, but there should be continuity of purpose. If a Minister in the early seventies felt that there was a need to set up this committee and the committee have met and produced a very fine document, surely the report cannot be summarily tossed aside and by-passed and the work undertaken by them just written off as being a non-essential, unimportant or having no function. When a committee set up to report into matters put quite a lot of expense, trouble and careful research into their report which then is not acted upon, that is deplorable. This report mentions that there is a need for a council for adult education. It was in the knowledge of that report and of the full backing of all these organisations who have contributed so much either on a statutory basis or in a voluntary capacity towards adult education in Ireland that Deputy E. Collins introduced this Bill to set up a council for adult education in Ireland.
Surely the Minister is aware of the discussion document on an NCEA award structure for recurrent education. The NCEA authorised a working party to inquire into an award structure and they likewise have come up in their report with a recommendation for such a council, if not specifically at least implied. We have Aontas, an organisation who have done so much for adult education. They also have come out very much in favour of such a council.
The Minister is retreating back into the 1930s under the shadow of the Vocational Education Act, 1930. He has stated that in his opinion there is no need for such a council and that the work can be done quite capably and ably under that Act. I commend the Minister on his recent appointment of 50 adult education officers throughout the country. This is the first step towards giving true recognition to the role of those engaged in adult education in Ireland. I have no doubt that sooner or later the officials in his Department will see the light and the urgent need for such a council.
We have the report undertaken by Ciarán Benson on behalf of our Arts Council, The Place of the Arts in Irish Education. He likewise has indicated his wish for such a council as a co-ordinating body to overlook and oversee and to have a unity of purpose for all these multitudinous organisations throughout Ireland who are engaged in adult education. Anyone must admit that so many organisations involved at present in adult education, all doing splendid work, are bound to overlap in many respects. There is bound to be dissipation of energy, time, moneys and resources which are so scarce. In the spirit of that, Deputy Collins, the Fine Gael spokesman on Education, primed by those various interests in adult education, produced this Bill for this House. The Minister in tossing this aside glibly and saying that the interests of adult education are being catered for adequately is doing a disservice not alone to parliamentary life here in Dáil Éireann but also to the whole concept and theme of adult education throughout the country. The old phrase is that it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. Here Deputy Collins has shown his commitment to adult education, particularly to this aspect of it. He has gone to the trouble of introducing this very worthwhile Bill which will meet the fate of many other Bills introduced by Opposition spokesmen.
The Minister stated in his reply that he is very much aware of the impact of adult education in rural Ireland, but I maintain that we have touched only the tip of the iceberg. A tremendous amount more could be undertaken, given proper development and the proper council, to permeate every single area of Irish life. Regarding family life there is the old concept that if you educate a parent, particularly a mother, you educate a family. There are the workers, and nowadays with the progress of technology there is an urgent need to learn and relearn new trades so that we will be able to meet competition from our European counterparts. All citizens and, ultimately, the State would benefit if we had a sound system of adult education. Nowadays, especially with the curtailing of the working week and the difficulty of getting employment, it is the duty of any Government to prepare people for their leisure hours so that they are better able to cope with the extra free time they have at their disposal. A lot can be done in adult education to prepare people who are forced into early retirement so that after leaving their employment they can become interested in pursuing adult education courses.
We have only touched the tip of the iceberg. As one delves into this adult education field one can see how important it is in all our lives. When one is dealing with an educated electorate the problems of Government are better understood. A more educated people will react positively and constructively to the problems facing any Government and the economy. I believe for those reasons the Minister must take a look at the role he is prepared to play in this very vital sector of adult education. The importance of the role of adult education has been recognised not alone in Europe but throughout the world. We need a policy statement from the Minister, what his attitude is in relation to adult education so that those involved in this field will at least know where they stand. We also need to hear from him his determination to introduce legislation.
The time has now come for action. The action most needed is the introduction of legislation to take account of the new problems facing the educational world. The Minister should set up the structures for this in his Department. There are so many groups interested and working towards adult education at the moment that there are bound to be ad hoc policies, disunity and conflict. The Minister should ensure that every statutory body and voluntary organisation will know what their role will be and be complementary to each other, not opposed to each other, in every respect.
I urge the Minister to state where he stands with regard to adult education, his policy in relation to it, the role he sees for adult education in the educational sphere and to tell us what legislation he hopes to introduce and the structures he will get his departmental officials to improvise. At an international level, we are fully aware of the importance all nations have been placing on education. I will not bore the House by stating what other countries are doing. Some of them have shown us the way. We should not rely on what other countries are doing in this regard but should take our courage in our hands, take the initiative and be world trend-setters in this regard rather than falling behind what other countries have done.
France adopted a system some years ago where a training levy was imposed on all industries. I am sure this is the wrong time to talk about any further levies on industry but at least it shows the commitment of the French Government and the importance they attach to the development of adult education. The German Government are considering plans for adult education. I am told that in Denmark a number of their Ministers were formerly principals in high schools, which is the nearest thing they have to an adult education scheme. In Yugoslavia there is a movement set up, a workers' university, which has been well established. In Italy a scheme for 50 hours paid education per year was implemented. The new Government in India have provided for total parity between adult education and primary education. UNESCO have adopted a resolution in this regard, to which we are signatories. The OECD have also produced a document on comprehensive policies for the development of adult education. The Council of Europe in Strasbourg have done something similar, as has the EEC. We are not alone in this. Other countries have seen the value of education.
I urge the Minister, irrespective of his attitude to date on this Bill, for the sake of adult education in this country, to have another look at the role his Department are playing in this very vital field of adult education.
Why should an effort be made at this stage to introduce another vehicle in relation to adult education when there seems to be enough vehicles and structures available to allow for general advance in this field? I am surprised at this Bill being introduced now. I hope its introduction is not merely for the sake of optics, to give the impression of some activity. Legislation alone does not bring about a real advance on the ground. It takes time for many decisions to work their way down to where we want effective action. The setting up of another structure would involve a lot of duplication and it would blunt a lot of the enthusiasm that is there at the moment. We have sufficient agencies involved already which are being used by the Minister to advance adult education. Having listened to Opposition speakers I gather that the reason they are knocking the 1930 VEC Act is that it is 50 years old. Just because it is 50 years old is not a reason to change it or replace it although perhaps it could be changed in a positive way.
The Minister has given a clear indication of his interest in adult education in a very real and practicable sense, not in the theoretical sense of introducing a Bill like this but by his appointment of 50 adult education organisers who are at present active in the field and are working with local communities. Their presence on the ground has afforded recognition and a fair tribute to the many agencies that have pioneered and developed adult education. I cannot stress too much the importance of the practical side of this evolution.
Just imagine what the establishment of a council structure would mean at this point in time. It would mean a huge transfer of resources and material and the amount of interplay that would occur would obviate the progress we all want to see on the ground. Another structure would bring about a lot of unnecessary duplication.
I welcome the organisers that have been appointed by the Minister. One has been appointed to the VEC in Wicklow and he is actively meeting with local groups. Many of these local groups see the formation of a sub-committee within the VEC as a useful and worthwhile development and they highlight the importance of localisation. We have often been told of the necessity to leave the affairs of the community within the community. Why not in the case of education leave those developments in the community? Why move these developments under the umbrella of a centralised council? If the CAEI were to be launched into the educational arena, which already has many abbreviations, it would add a certain amount of confusion and lack of genuine advance. The function of the organisers appointed in conjunction with the sub-committees of the VEC is to identify the educational needs of adults in the area. The country is relatively small but educational needs in various areas are dissimilar especially when one considers the rural situation as against the urban situation. I prefer the localised approach of the sub-committees and the organiser who can pinpoint the deficiencies in adult education in a particular area. A council would give the more general aspect of matters rather than pinpointing the essentials.
Looking at appendix I of the Circular letter No. 42/79 about the appointment of adult education organisers I note that the function of the organiser is to cover practically all of the aspects of adult education. The organiser must identify the educational needs of adults. How better could these needs be identified than at local level? The organiser must also examine the existing provision of adult education courses and facilities and this can also be done better at local level. The function of the organisers is also to suggest possible areas of co-operation between agencies and services in the provision of adult education. A council could do that but a council would be working on a completely different plane. The organiser could also prepare for the VEC adult education subcommittee, a draft annual programme of adult education activities. That would ensure that leisure needs were catered for, it would also take cognizance of early redundancies and free time in an area and it could enable those courses to be provided in a local establishment. There are also other aspects where these co-ordinators could get involved.
The important thing is that these organisers are approximate to the local groups. Many voluntary organisations will be further encouraged by the immediacy of contact. The proposed council would centralise and by virtue of centralisation would slow down the on-the-ground impetus which we complement. At this point a council would move towards centralisation.
Adult education legislation per se does not bring about a real increase immediately. We would have a lot of ongoing discussion and to-ing and fro-ing where people endeavoured to find out where their spheres commenced and stopped. There would be a shocking amount of over-lap which would not bring a great deal of advance. The local community has a local axis and in relation to the VEC Act the local VEC is a very important cog in this axis. The people really treasure and take pride in the school. They feel a part of it and want to see its development. They respond to its flexibility and this flexibility is such as to enable it not alone to respond to the needs but also innovate for localised needs.
The Minister has actually shown a positive advance in adult education, not a theoretical advance, by utilising the available framework in a very practical way. Committees of the VEC have pioneered adult education through the years. I should like to pay tribute to them for their involvement and would not like to overlook the involvement of many primary schools and voluntary secondary schools in adult education. Their commitment is known and appreciated. They can readily develop within the field of adult education.
At a localised level they can have representation on the adult education sub-committee. They can get involved also with the huge number of voluntary agencies, some of whom have an annual grant from the Department, who are doing tremendous work in this field. They are moving ahead and developing still further a programme of practical adult education. We all know and esteem voluntary agencies such as ICA, Macra na Tíre, Macra na Tuaithe, National Youth Council and Aontas. They cater for the different needs and interests of adults. They continue to give distinguished service and within these groups there is a flexibility and an on-the-ground local organiser. If this council were to be established, it would dampen this localisation and on-the-ground enthusiasm.
When one speaks of adult education one must take cognisance of the involvement of RTCs, universities with their extramural departments many of which have diploma courses in adult education, and also the agricultural advisory service. They cater for the adult population and for people who have just left school by their many winter classes and lectures. AnCO also provide a vital role as do the agencies of other Government Departments. When one considers the different groups in vocational schools, primary schools, voluntary secondary schools, RTCs and local branches of voluntary agencies, liaison in adult education can be most effective at county or area level. Adult education sub-committees have and can have representatives of voluntary bodies who have much expertise and a lot of advice to offer in the realm of adult education matters. It must be advantageous to the sub-committees and the adult education organiser. Secondary, comprehensive and community schools should also participate in these sub-committees.
One must stress the practicability of the advance of the Minister for Education in the field of adult education. There is an on-going development. In each small town and village and in larger towns and centres there are people who are involved with those who develop and make adult education available. This is a very definite advance and a utilisation of resources in a very beneficial way. The establishment of a central body at this time in the evolution of adult education could dampen this local enthusiasm by its very remoteness from the real needs and involvement of local communities.
When one considers the many abbreviations that there are at present in education would the launching of the CAEI show enlightened advancement in this sphere? It may be the final straw that would bring about the necessity for a key for a ready reckoner for each citizen so as to interpret and identify the various groups and factors who are involved in education.
One would need a ready reckoner to interpret that sentence.
If one examines the different groups whose initials we hear mentioned regularly and throws in another abbreviation in the form of the CAEI people's minds will boggle. If Deputies read over the reports of the various congresses of the different bodies held during Easter—ASTI, TUI, INTO, all good and laudable bodies, CHRS, CCSS, FIPESO—they would know what we are talking about. Would throwing in another player, the CAEI, being the council for adult education in Ireland, advance that situation? Perhaps one might come up with a different form of title. Does this really bring about the practical advance we all desire? I do not think so. Its arrival on the education scene would bring about a huge transfer of development with resultant duplication, wastage of resources, stifling of expertise and would be very negative in the main.
Deputy Griffin drew some comparisons and spoke in terms of many laudable programmes that have been launched in different countries. It is not feasible to compare an adult education programme in India with one in Ireland. Thankfully, we do not have even a minute percentage of the illiteracy of that unfortunate country. If Deputy Kenny wants to comment on that I will give way to him.
The less said about that the better.
One must compare like with like. This Bill does not advance adult education in the areas we want, that is, at person to person level. The utilisation of existing structures is beneficial and I compliment the Minister for having moved in a practical way.
People take great pride in what they have at local level. They would not want to see any of their involvements moved to a central council. I fear that might happen. I am pleased there is sufficient flexibility within the Vocational Education Acts to enable an advance to be made. Every Deputy is conscious of the Minister's commitment in pushing ahead and they take note of the practicality of these organisers being available to local organisations and communities to advance adult education.
I would like to compliment Deputy E. Collins on producing this Bill and for giving the House the opportunity to discuss this very important area of our educational system. The need for adult education is beyond doubt and many contributions I have heard reinforce that view. The area of adult education, as has been stated in the Murphy Report and in various comments by people in the educational field for whom I have great respect, cannot be over-stressed. The only objection made by Deputy Murphy to this Bill was the abbreviation. He said that was the most confusing part of it.
It was too difficult to absorb.
It may have been, but if that was his only objection it was a very poor argument to put up. He complimented the Minister on umpteen occasions for pushing, shoving and trying to improve the situation. The Minister provided 50 officers who are now in the field. My county has two officers whom I know personally. Both are fine gentlemen doing good work.
Deputy Murphy talked about the dangers of centralisation and the lack of any local community input. The present system is having the opposite effect because what we have now is a grafting operation. We have 50 officers in the field grafted on to the present structure which is one of the most centralised in Western Europe.
The VEC?
The VEC, of which I was a member for some years, are responsible to the Minister for Education and dance to the tune played in Marlborough Street. Nobody in this House is naive enough to think they dance otherwise. There is no specific section of the Department with responsibility for adult education. This is unfortunate and when one considers the radical social changes that have taken place in the past few years, one cannot but be struck by the difficulties many adults have in coping with their environment. Nothing has been done to alleviate the pressures on the people. While the grafting of a system on to a system which was meant for full-time education of young adults in the vocational system will do good work and will be beneficial to those who avail of that service, obviously we must have a separate structure, a statutory framework, to deal with this problem of adult education, and it is a very grave problem nowadays.
Deputy Murphy talked about retraining, leisure pursuits and so on. There are people living under stress, who do not have enough funds to meet their needs, who have social problems, housing problems and so on. The part adult education courses will play in relieving them of some of these pressures and in alleviating some of their anxieties would be very great. Many people find they are ill-prepared to meet the problems confronting them in today's world.
We have those courses in Wicklow. What about Mayo?
It would be a good idea if the Deputy attended them.
Those courses are also conducted in Mayo in a very haphazard way. It is a hit and miss affair and the Deputy knows it. I am talking about an organised national approach based on a sound statutory framework and this is what this Bill is trying to do. The present courses are beneficial to the people who avail of them and, of course, they are doing good work but if the screw is tightened financially, as it is being tightened now——
It is not.
What about yesterday's circular directing the authorities to increase the fees by 40 per cent?
I do not wish to get into an argument with the Minister——
Look at the percentage for vocational education——
What about yesterday's circular directing the authorities to increase the fees for adult education by 40 per cent?
Deputy O'Toole, please.
The Minister did a tour over——
When Fine Gael were in Government they did not do anything for adult education.
Deputy Murphy has already spoken.
The Minister must have been deaf if he did not hear what they were saying at the conferences day in and day out.
I am talking about facts.
So am I.
Look at the vocational education programme and see what the——
We must deal with the Bill before the House.
The Minister is joking.
I am not.
There is a cut-back in the school transport programme. Much lip-service has been paid to our people being our greatest national asset.
And are they not our greatest national asset?
Deputy O'Toole is in possession.
If that is so we must ensure that that asset is protected and is improved in every way possible. This Bill is a step in the right direction but the Minister because of hide-bound tradition and because of party political attitudes cannot afford to accept the Bill as it is. I am disappointed that he would not see the sense in the Bill and at least give us his version of what is adult education. I do not understand the Minister's attitude because there is no reason to believe that a separate framework would involve extra expenditure initially but it would indicate a commitment on the part of the Government to what they say is our greatest national asset.
Would the Deputy not agree that our people are our greatest national asset?
Of course I agree but there is an insidious attempt by Deputy Murphy to point to us as downgrading the work of the 50 officers already in the field. There is no such intention on our part. All of us in this party are behind the work of those officers and we wish them every success. But of course any of these officers would be happier to be working in a system such as the one proposed in this Bill. However, I do not suppose that Deputy Murphy has talked to his local officers in this regard.
I have known the officer for my area personally for some years. He is a tremendous character.
Deputy Murphy should not be praising someone at this stage.
The provision of adult education or of recurring or continuing education as it is sometimes referred to is something that we cannot afford to approach in a haphazard way. We must ensure that our people get the opportunities they deserve and if we regard our people as our greatest asset we must be prepared to allow that asset to be developed to its full potential. Unless we have the guts and the commitment to provide by way of statute for a system that would give our people a chance in later life, to educate themselves in their chosen fields we are failing in our duty to them. The Minister is now failing in that duty.
Perhaps to some extent it is indicative of the Government's real interest in adult education that on the very day on which this Bill first came before the House for discussion—that was yesterday—every vocational committee received a circular from the Minister directing them to increase their fees for all adult education classes by 40 per cent. Perhaps that is nearer to the truth than some of the righteous fulminations we have heard from the Government side both yesterday and today.
The courses are well worth the fees involved.
The purpose of this Bill is to set up one single statutory authority with regional authorities and with county committees in order that there might be a clear understanding on the part of all those involved in adult education as to whom they were responsible and in what way the service was to operate. We all know that the authority are charged with the statutory obligation of providing adult education and this obligation is discharged by the vocational education committees with, I regret to say, varying degrees of efficiency and of interest.
There has grown up a situation in which some community schools provide an extensive range of adult education courses. The same applies to some of the voluntary secondary schools and to the comprehensive schools. The People's College and the Adult Education Institute and such organisations provide a different range of services but they are not responsible to any overall control or co-ordination.
I would have thought that the concept enshrined in the Bill was a good one and one that is long overdue not only in relation to adult education but in relation also to other aspects of education. Many of those who, on a non-party basis, are interested in education look forward to the day when we might have a regional education authority and a county education authority. This Bill would have been a forerunner of the concept of regional education. It would have been a step forward in the whole sphere of education apart altogether from the worthwhile contribution that it would have made in the area of adult education. For this reason I was surprised by the attitude of the Minister but I was taken aback at the cavilling attitude displayed by the Labour Party spokesman in outlining their approach to the Bill and in their criticism that what is needed in adult education is finance and not structures. That is an over-simplification because both finance and structures are needed. I was amazed on reading Deputy Horgan's speech to discover that having said that, the remainder of his speech was devoted almost exclusively to the fact that there was a need for the restructuring of the adult education system. One would have expected a greater appreciation on the part of Deputy Horgan, having regard to his experience in the field of education, than that displayed in his contribution.
Let us take, for instance, the VEC in Deputy Murphy's constituency who may be operating enthusiastically but who might very well be next door to a committee that are operating to the very minimum statutory requirements, who do not in any way co-ordinate the courses being provided between one centre and another and who do not co-operate with the voluntary secondary schools or with the community or comprehensive schools in their area.
The Minister has appointed 50 adult education officers but I know of one community school within the area of my committee who chose not to co-operate with the organiser assigned to the area on the basis that they did not like the system and wished to operate independently. There is no control, statutory or otherwise, whereby they could be made to fit in with the system for the good of the community and in the interest of the organised provision of adult education on the widest possible level. That is the sort of problem that would have been eliminated by the acceptance of this Bill but it is the sort of problem that would appear not to have been comprehended either by the Government side or by Labour.
In making these comments I should like to pay tribute to Aontas and to the voluntary organisations who have struggled despite lack of support and lack of encouragement down through the years to provide the level of adult education that is now available but which is available on an uneven basis. Not so many years ago the CEO of a vocational educational committee who were not one million miles away either from Deputy Murphy's constituency or mine, when he was asked the number of people attending his adult education courses said, "There are 1,400 this year but we are working hard to bring it down to 800". Is the House seriously suggesting there is no need for a statutory overall controlling authority who can see to it that that kind of man is made to do his job? Fifty adult education organisers have been appointed and that has been of considerable help. However, the more those organisers become involved in the field, as they should be, the more difficult it becomes for them to provide information and service to their committees because of the lack of administrative back-up staff. I appreciate this is a problem that was bound to arise but it will become more acute as the organisers become more successful. That needs to be taken into account. Another matter that must be considered is the derisory payments to teachers who participate in adult education courses and also the rate of travelling expenses. Most of the teachers who participate, especially the specialist teachers, must have a real interest in the development of adult education because from a financial point of view it cannot be beneficial to them.
One of the most important aspects that must not be forgotten is that we are moving more and more towards a non-work society where the population will have more leisure time but will not necessarily have more disposable income. They will spend more time out of the workplace but will not be given more money. If we do not find outlets for them, if we do not help them to develop their interests, we will have the recipe for a social time bomb. People may have to face the prospect of a shorter working week but may not have extra money and it is important that they know how to spend their leisure time. They must be given proper resources to develop their interests, to retrain and to develop their skills. Until we provide adult education on that co-ordinated basis we are not providing a proper service. In addition, we are not recognising the social time bomb that will exist. Adult education at the moment is being approached in a haphazard way.
This Bill proposes a single statutory authority to oversee the very uneven provision of the service. This would be good from the point of view of education in general by providing the first of the regional and the county educational authorities without the intrusion of any of the other vested interests.
What is the future for the VECs?
The VECs, the voluntary secondary schools, the community and the comprehensive schools would have played their part in the system. Unlike Deputy Horgan, I was chairman of a VEC board. I took an adult education course of 2,000 people in County Dublin and expanded it to 15,000 people in a period of two years. I can say I have some idea at a practical level of what I am talking about.
I should like to thank all Members, including the Minister, for contributing to the debate. Especially I should like to thank my colleagues, Deputies Griffin, O'Toole and Boland for their contributions. I am sorry that Deputy Kenny who wished to speak was not given the time to do so.
This Bill did not come out of mid-air. It was not a figment of my imagination. It was deeply researched. I had consultations with many people about the need for the Bill. It is a good Bill, but Fianna Fáil and the Minister do not want to give credit to it. They are frightened of changes and of new structures. I am sad to see that the Minister has been subsumed by his civil servants. I did not think it would happen. The power of the civil servants to keep what they have—they are better than the old loyalists in the North with "not an inch"——
The Deputy should not attack civil servants in the House. The Minister is responsible for his Department, nobody else.
It is most unfortunate that the Minister has been hoodwinked into taking a negative attitude to a basic structural change in education. We had the Murphy report on adult education and chapter 4 of that report dealt with structures. The summary of recommendations coincides closely with what is in my Bill. Obviously, I paid attention to it. I examined the structures and I saw advantages in introducing a Bill and in proposing to set up a council. I want to make it clear that the Murphy report recommends such legislation and it recommends many things contained in my Bill. I am on good ground in introducing the Bill and Fianna Fáil are on bad ground in rejecting it.
One of the most respected voluntary bodies involved in adult education is Aontas, the National Association of Adult Education. They have been praised by the Minister and everyone in this House. I should like to quote a press release of Aontas dated 14 April 1980 as follows:
Aontas welcomes publication of the Adult Education Bill. The Executive Committee of Aontas, the National Association of Adult Education, has welcomed the publication of the Council for Adult Education Bill, 1980, circulated recently by Mr. Edward Collins, T.D., Fine Gael spokesman on education. The Executive Committee considers the Bill to be a significant contribution to the discussions on the development of Irish adult education. The Bill is interpreted as being a serious attempt to give a new status to the whole area of adult education which is seen as a particularly desirable development. The Executive Committee has written to Mr. Collins, T.D., requesting clarification of a number of points in the Bill.
I consider that a welcome acknowledgement by Aontas. I also consider it to be a condemnation of the Minister's failure to take this opportunity to have a serious attempt to look at the matter.
I have been congratulated on the 50 per cent increase.
It has not been apparent in the Book of Estimates.
It is there if the Deputy would read it.
If the Minister has increased these grants by 50 per cent I hope he will do something similar for school transport.
I will certainly not do what Fine Gael have been asking for.
A new status is required for adult education but Fianna Fáil refuse to accept that. The only way it can be achieved is by having a proper structure, as recommended by the Murphy report on adult education.
What is the date of that report?
It is 21 November 1973, so it was probably on the Minister's desk in 1974.
So we got nothing between 1973 and 1977 but crocodile tears about adult education.
A major change is required. Would the Minister explain why he thinks it is not necessary to have a special section in the Department to deal with this? How serious is the Minister about it? He gives teachers 5p per mile to conduct adult classes throughout the country.
The Deputy cannot even get that right.
I got it from a Department official. If there has been a change I should like to hear about it.
The Deputy will find out if he goes to check it.
I am convinced that the opposition to this Bill is spurious and ill-founded. The Bill would provide a social weapon to fight inequality in our society. Deputy Horgan last night spoke of the one million who left school in the sixties without any formal certificates. This is an indication of the great need for a proper structure of adult education because many men and women now working have to tackle social changes and they want to be able to keep up with those changes. They want to be able to know about their opportunities, to be better informed. Perhaps they want to improve their position in life, their position as parents. They might want to know their constitutional rights vis-à-vis the institutions of State.
They are some of the reasons for providing a proper structure of adult education which is not there now. There is a very unequal distribution of the present provision for adult education services. Deputy Boland spoke of one county in which there is an active VEC, but in other counties there is only a minimum service. The voluntary bodies, and organisations such as VECs and county committees of agriculture, have done a lot in this field but there is a need to bring these organisations together. This can be done only by a national council for adult education which would co-ordinate national effort at local and regional levels so that local and regional interests would become involved.
I am disappointed that my Labour colleagues do not see fit to support the Bill because of their own policies in this respect. I assure them that the structures provided for in the Bill would give an impetus to local and regional involvement. There is no attempt to do anything more than to ensure such local involvement in adult education which would help us to face up to the problems in our society. There are many people crying out for a proper adult education programme. If that is not provided there will be a social upheaval.
The council suggested in the Bill would fill the gap that now exists in this field of education. At the moment there is no co-ordinating agency in the Department. All they do is to provide 50 additional adult education advisers. That is not tackling the problem. There is need for a national body to co-ordinate regional and local interests. I do not know where we would be without the voluntary bodies, the VECs and the county committees of agriculture. We want to have adult education put on the same basis as any other sector of education. There is need for further financial commitment in this field and I do not make any apology when I seek money for this purpose. If we do not face these problems we will be in for a serious social upheaval.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 33; Níl, 64.
Tá
- Barry, Myra.
- Barry, Peter.
- Barry, Richard.
- Begley, Michael.
- Belton, Luke.
- Boland, John.
- Burke, Joan.
- Burke, Liam.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Collins, Edward.
- Conlan, John F.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Cosgrave, Michael J.
- Crotty, Kieran.
- D'Arcy, Michael J.
- Deasy, Martin A.
- Donegan, Patrick S.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan-Monaghan).
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Gilhawley, Eugene.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Kenny, Enda.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Mannion, John M.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Brien, William.
- O'Toole, Paddy.
- Taylor, Frank.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- White, James.
Níl
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Kit.
- Allen, Lorcan.
- Andrews, David.
- Andrews, Niall.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Sylvester.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, Seán.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Callanan, John.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Fitzsimons, James N.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Fox, Christopher J.
- French, Seán.
- Gallagher, Dennis.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Herbert, Michael.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Keegan, Seán.
- Kenneally, William.
- Killeen, Tim.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lemass, Eileen.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leonard, Tom.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Loughnane, William.
- Cogan, Barry.
- Colley, George.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Conaghan, Hugh.
- Connolly, Gerard.
- Cowen, Bernard.
- Crinion, Brendan.
- Daly, Brendan.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Farrell, Joe.
- Filgate, Eddie.
- Lynch, Jack.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- Meaney, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Moore, Seán.
- Morley, P.J.
- Murphy, Ciarán P.
- Nolan, Tom.
- Noonan, Michael.
- O'Connor, Timothy C.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Leary, John.
- Smith, Michael
- Walsh, Seán.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael J.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies W. O'Brien and Begley; Níl, Deputies Moore and Briscoe.
Question declared lost.