I have given permission to Deputy Harte to raise the subject matter of Question No. 107 on today's Order Paper. Deputy Harte has 20 minutes.
Adjournment Debate. - County Donegal Housing Loans.
Some time ago I found it necessary to raise this matter by way of Private Notice Question but for some reason the Chair decided that it was not sufficiently urgent to warrant a Private Notice Question. I then asked to raise the matter by way of a question on the Adjournment and, with the consent of the Chair, I would like to ask the Minister for the Environment if he is aware of the chronic situation in County Donegal because Donegal County Council have insufficient funds to pay housing loans to applicants whose loans have been sanctioned. On the basis of this loan approval these people have committed themselves to a building programme and are now in severe financial difficulty because of the unavailability of funds. Will the Minister make a statement on the matter?
I raise this matter because the position in Donegal has reached crisis proportions. I have been unable to ascertain the exact number but I am assured that well in excess of 100 people, ordinary working class people, applied to Donegal County Council for loans to build their own homes; their credentials were fully examined and their ability to repay the loan assessed and the loan passed, and on the basis of the information that they would get their loan from Donegal County Council they proceeded to build their own homes. Now, having built their homes, they cannot get instalments from the county council even though the county council have sent engineers out to certify that the work has been done. Ordinary working class people are now financially embarrassed. They cannot pay the contractor; the contractor cannot pay the supplier; the supplier cannot pay the agent from whom he buys his materials. There is a total crisis. People are being hurt and something must be done immediately. I know young men and women who are rearing young families and they come literally crying to me. I do not exaggerate. Young people come to my house in tears to ask me if I can get their names on the list for the next payments. I go pleading to the loans section of the county council. The officials there are totally sympathetic. They say they will try to do something, that they know the hardship involved, that they will try to include certain people in the next payments, only to be told that the Department of the Environment have not sent them sufficient funds.
We need about £3.8 million this year. The Department have told us that they will give us money but they have not done so. The people on behalf of whom I am making this plea to the Minister cannot sleep in their beds for worrying. These are young working-class people embarking on the very serious project of building their own homes. It is probably the biggest thing they will do in their lifetime. They work out the economics of it all. They do everything right and are very particular about the way things have to be done. In good faith these applicants have commissioned contractors to build their houses. In good faith the contractors have undertaken the task of building the house, and in good faith the suppliers have supplied the contractors with the materials. The result is that everybody is bogged down in this vicious circle because the Department of the Environment have not made funds available to the county council.
It is a strange thing that in the city of Dublin a young Deputy, a novice by many standards, with one day's experience in this House — I do not wish to take away from the intelligence of the young man — can negotiate with the Taoiseach the price of his vote in this House, £150 million for the centre of Dublin, but the second longest serving Deputy in this House who is a buddy and a pal of the Taoiseach — I will not go into how close the relationship is — who represents the same constituency as I is not able to persuade Deputy Connolly, the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Burke, or the Taoiseach to provide a miserable £.5 million to get us out of our difficulty.
At election time Fianna Fáil said they would reintroduce loans for single people. It is easy to do that on paper when they do not provide the money. Now Donegal County Council have approved loans to single people and cannot get the money. Single people have to build houses urgently, but there are families living in bad housing that one would be ashamed to go into, and doing their best to make them habitable and embarking on the very noble and adventurous exercise of building their own homes instead of waiting for the local authority to build a house for them. But the blindness of the Government has put them into a financial cul de sac and driven them almost to the point of a nervous breakdown. Dozens of young couples are asking me to do something about the situation. I get on to the county council and I am told that they will do their best but that they are in difficulties. They have got to the stage where they are fed up making excuses for the negligence of the Department of the Environment. Too many times people have been told on the telephone that money will be provided. Time after time Donegal County Council have been told on the telephone that money will be provided but there is nothing in writing and the money has not been provided.
It is disgraceful to mislead a local authority into believing that the funds are available so that they approve loans to young people to build their own homes. These are ordinary working-class people. If they were not in the position of having to apply for a loan they would not be coming to me with cap in hand begging for something that they are entitled to. It is a disgraceful situation and it is time the Minister told us how much money we are going to get and when we are going to get it. I want an assurance from the Minister that he will make available immediately that £.5 million, which is approximately what is needed. If that money is made available then the people that I have been talking about and pleading on behalf of will be able to sleep well in their beds.
All of the people who are trapped because the Government do not make money available are working-class people. The contractors are not very rich people; they are ordinary working people, working to provide for their wives and their families and they can ill afford to be out of the money for the work that they have been commissioned to do. The suppliers in Donegal are not that big. They are not multinationals. They are just ordinary families who are in business for a living and find it difficult to stay in business and they cannot afford to do without the money. I hope the Minister is getting the message. This is a very unfair situation and there is no point in saying that it is not happening because it has been happening for the last two or three months. The officials of Donegal County Council have been consistently in touch with the Department asking them for funds to get them out of this terrible dilemma. They have been put off on numerous occasions and told that the money will be in the post, but nothing has ever been written down. Promises do not put cement blocks together. If this problem was relevant to his constituency, the Minister of State would be kicking up a great deal of dust about it. The ordinary people of Donegal who badly need financial help are as good as the ordinary people of Laois/Offaly. I ask the Minister to listen to my appeal.
I cannot emphasise strongly enough how important it is for the Minister to tell us if he can give us £400,000, and when can he give it. If he does not give this money the banks will put pressure on applicants who have bridging loans, the contractors will put pressure on the applicants for the money they invested in building new houses, and the suppliers will be putting pressure on the contractors for their money. These people will give no credit to a Government which glibly spend £150 million on promises given to the youngest serving Deputy, Deputy Gregory-Independent, who says "The price of my vote is this list of things I want done. If you promise to do them I will vote for you, Charles J. Haughey, as Taoiseach", which he did. It is time Deputy Blaney told us what price he put on his vote. The people on whose behalf I make this plea tonight give him no credit. It would be very easy for Deputy Blaney to ring the Minister of State and say the people of Donegal need money. Some of these people are my supporters, some support Deputy Blaney and others support Deputy Conaghan. They are ordinary, good living, working class people who deserve to be recognised for their efforts to build their own houses.
It should be recognised that inflation has caught up with them and the longer it takes to build these houses, the dearer they will be. I feel very strongly about this and if the Minister does not tell us how much money he is giving us and when, I will make myself heard much more loudly in this House. I am not exaggerating. The position is at crisis point. These people need the money and their problem cannot be solved unless the Department make money available for housing loans. I appeal to the Minister to tell me if he can give Donegal County Council £400,000 to get them out of this vicious circle.
As I have about six minutes left I will give way to Deputy Conaghan.
I was not aware that this matter was being discussed this evening. I appreciate Deputy Harte's concern. We all know there is a critical financial situation in Donegal but I would like to put on record that this problem existed before this Government came into power. For the first time in the history of the Donegal local authority there was no money for housing loans. This happened during the term of the previous Government. Last November there was no money available from the Department to pay housing loans which had been accepted by the council. Unfortunately the position has been aggravated ——
Face reality. I have been good enough to give the Deputy time and he should come clean.
We have to put this matter into its proper perspective and I must give the facts. I am aware of the present situation and appreciate that there is not enough money being given to the council to solve the problem which was created by the Coalition Government ——
That is a lot of nonsense.
This has left us in a ridiculous situation because of the shortfall created by the previous Government. I am convinced the present Minister knows the situation and he will take steps to alleviate the problem we are facing. He should seriously consider the situation we inherited and do something to solve it.
With a deputation from the Buncrana Urban Council I met the Minister of State, and Deputy Harte when a deputation from Donegal met the Minister for the Environment about the many problems facing the Donegal local authority. We made a very valid case and got a good hearing from the Minister and I am convinced he will provide some money to help us to get over these difficulties which were created because the previous Government did not provide the necessary money.
People who need the money will not listen to that story.
Since I was elected to this House I have made repeated representations for special consideration for County Donegal because there is a shortage of houses in that county and we have a very long waiting list. This situation was caused because we have a young population which is increasing yearly and these people need to be housed. They want to stay in Donegal and provide their own houses but they must be given the necessary financial help to do so.
Fianna Fáil have always made provision for these people. For the first time in the history of the Donegal local authority we were not able to provide the necessary money, month by month, to the people who were granted SDA loans. I know the Minister is aware of the position and will do something about it. Everybody appreciates that there is a great scarcity of money and that there will never be enough to meet the amount, we as Deputies, would like to see coming to our counties.
I want to put on record that we in Donegal have a case which deserves special attention and ask the Minister seriously to review the situation. Sympathy is not what we want, it is money that we need. The necessary finances must be provided to allow the local authority to get over their present difficulties. Would the Minister please deal with this serious situation as his finances permit?
The capital allocation of £3,200,000 to Donegal County Council in respect of local authority house purchase, erection and improvement loans is the supplementary grant for 1982. This allocation was made by Deputy Harte's Government when in office. It is difficult for anyone in my position to foresee accurately the demand for SDA local authority loans. An extra demand for these loans has been brought about because we stabilised the interest rate at 12½ per cent on these loans, non-fluctuating. The Deputy's Government increased that rate to 15½ per cent.
The Minister's Government did not give the people money.
I never interrupted the Deputy and if he continues to interrupt me, I will give him some facts. The Deputy may not like the facts, but they are there.
I do not want promises, I just want money.
The Deputy never got promises from me.
Let the Minister put his money where his mouth is.
I make no promises, but I will give the Deputy the facts, if he wants to hear them.
I would rather have the money.
The previous Government increased the loan interest rate to 15½ per cent, with a clause ordering reviews every six months as well. That was the situation. When I came into the Department I found many shortfalls in the housing allocations across the board and had to bring to the notice of the Government the making of a further allocation. In regard to Donegal County Council, and county councils in general, a comprehensive review is taking place among all the local authorities to see the exact position. I also want to say to the Deputy ——
Is the Minister's Government going to give us the £½ million or not? Donegal is being discussed. Do not bring in any other places.
Kindly let the Minister reply. He has limited time only.
But Donegal is being discussed, not anywhere else.
The Deputy should not interrupt the Minister.
I will not interrupt him if he talks about Donegal.
The Minister, on the issues, without further interruption, please.
I have never interrupted anybody in this House. Let people talk about the issues they want to raise and I will reply to them.
Hear, hear.
If they do not want to raise the issues, that is all right with me. I want to give some facts. The Deputy's Government of the day ——
These are Fianna Fáil facts. They do not always prove themselves.
—— allocated £3,200,000. The Deputy's Government did not prove themselves with the electorate, which is the main thing. I tell the Deputy as a man of long-standing in this House ——
After Dublin West, no wonder the Minister's Government are worried.
Will Deputy Harte kindly allow the Minister to speak?
When I came in to the Department in charge of housing, I had a look across the board to see ——
Just look at Donegal, not across the board. That is what we are debating.
—— what the situation actually was. Only last week an official from my Department was in consultation with the officials of Donegal County Council on the situation there.
Donegal County Council were informed by telephone ——
No official of my Department informed Donegal County Council by telephone that extra funds would be made available to that council.
Every day of the week you did that.
We told Donegal County Council what money would be available to them in regard to SDA loans.
Promises, promises, promises.
On 13 April, a sum of £832,000 was issued to the council from the Local Loans Fund. A further sum of £207,000 was issued from the local loans allocation on 13 May.
Would the Minister tell us is he or is he not going to give us the £½ million?
It is very difficult for me, in view of the restriction brought in by the previous administration ——
We have heard all the facts. Is the Minister going to give us the money?
—— in regard to SDA loans with discrimination against single people and special categorising of people as regards these loans. We abandoned this when we came into office.
Is the Minister going to give us the money?
Would the Deputy please let the Minister continue?
I want to get the Minister to say whether or not he will give us this money.
Deputy Harte had 20 minutes to speak.
I am surprised at the Deputy, a long-standing Member of this House.
All I want to know is whether or not we are going to be given this money.
Kindly allow the Minister to finish.
I am surprised at a long-standing Member of the House asking questions like that. He should have better "cop-on" than that.
Is the Minister going to give us the money or not?
I am having a comprehensive review of the SDA loans position carried out.
Promises, promises, promises.
I will not promise anything. I have never promised anything that I was not able to fulfil. I challenge the Deputy to prove that I have ever promised anything in this House which I did not honour. I never have done that and never will.
Is the Minister going to give us the money or not?
I am very sympathetically disposed towards Donegal County Council. I am having the matter investigated and the Council will hear from me in due course.
Tell us when? Will it be next week or next month? We did not even get sympathy.
The Deputy is not a man to want sympathy.
I am not asking for sympathy for myself. I can defend myself.
The Deputy never wanted sympathy.
The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 3 June 1982.