Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Feb 1984

Vol. 348 No. 5

Private Members' Business. - Inquiry into Placing of Listening Devices: Motion.

I move:

That it is expedient that a Tribunal be established under the provisions of the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Acts, 1921 and 1979 for—

1. Inquiring into the following definite matter of urgent public importance:

the circumstances in which listening devices were placed in a private house in Del-Val Avenue, Kilbarrack.

2. Making such recommendations, as the Tribunal having regard to its findings, thinks proper.

The motion calls for the setting up of a tribunal of inquiry into the placing of listening devices in a private house and that the tribunal make appropriate recommendations.

We are demanding in this motion that the Government set up immediately an independent judicial tribunal to inquire into the circumstances surrounding the placing of listening devices in a house where the deputy leader of the SDLP stayed while attending the Forum. We are also requesting that this tribunal make such recommendations as it considers appropriate The events which have unfolded since the disclosure in a Sunday newspaper, Sunday Tribune, 19 February 1984 of the bugging incident, the subsequent statements made by the Taoiseach, by the Department of Justice, and by the Garda, and the personal silence of the Minister for Justice have created such concern and mistrust that only an independent judicial inquiry will restore confidence and order necessary in the handling of these affairs.

The Taoiseach and the Government say that there is no need for an inquiry. The Government have refused to provide time for a debate on the Mallon affair and when we have set aside our Private Members' time for such a debate they have attempted to pre-empt the discussion by stating in advance that no inquiry will be held. What a stark contrast this is to the manly performance of the former Taoiseach, Deputy Charles J. Haughey, and his Government who, when allegations were made against the last Minister for Justice, approached the President of the High Court to request that an independent judicial inquiry be established and a judge be released to undertake this important function in relation to the administration of the affairs of that Department. Indeed, the Coalition promised on coming to office that such an inquiry would take place but that has not happened and the initial arrangements fell by the wayside.

Much has been said in the course of the last week in connection with the Mallon affair and yet because of some initially misleading statements; and a lack of frankness and clarity on the part of the Government, it has fallen to the Opposition and to some investigative journalists in the media to search for the truth and establish the facts. There have been many false trails laid before us. Initially we were led to believe that the whole affair was an attempt to burgle the dwelling. Then we were given the suggestion of the family's association with a nephew who was involved in a demonstration outside the British Embassy. Then we were told that the bugging attempt was the work of the Provisional IRA, even though the Government were admitting at the same time that they had no proof that this was so. The media and the public were skilfully led up these various culsde-sac and the headlines reflected the desired false leads put out by Government sources. Indeed, it is regrettable that this long process of investigation and discovery had to take place because it meant that the entire affair since the public became aware of it on 19 February has been drawn out further because of the lack of frankness and forthrightness in regard to it.

For the Moyna family this saga began on 29 October 1983 when their phone went out of order. Since this was a bank holiday weekend they reported the fault on Tuesday, November 1 at 9.30 a.m. That was a reasonable approach on their part, because naturally they assumed that they were unfortunate it had gone out of order on the bank holiday weekend. Mr. Moyna reported the fault from his place of business at 9.30 a.m. on 1 November the first opportunity he had. At 10.30 a.m. the phone was working again and at 11.00 a.m. three men, allegedly from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, arrived to instal a new wire. Late on the same evening Mr. Moyna discovered the microphone because he had bored a hole through the main outside wall and wanted to redirect the wire to behind the wall panelling.

A great deal has been said about the alleged crudity of this arrangement. We have heard a lot about this aspect of the matter in recent days. I should like to make it clear that the only reason the three men who called to this job could not bore a hole through the window was because Mr. Moyna's wife said, "No way". She knew that her husband would be upset if a hole had been bored through the aluminium window and that he would have had other ideas about how to handle the situation. That was how the wire was put through the base corner of the window rather than through a hole in the framework. That is a crucial point because it upset what might otherwise have been a reasonably tidy arrangement but not one that would come up to the standards Mr. Moyna would set for himself in his house. As was discovered later, he is a particularly meticulous type of person and everything about his house and his garden are of that nature.

Mr. Moyna found that the wire went through his back garden and trees and on to what he thought was a telegraph pole. In fact, it was an ESB cum telegraph pole which is unusual. We are talking about the dark nights of November when the Moyna's did not have much opportunity to do much more at that stage. On the following Saturday he took trouble to get up the pole to see where the wire at the top of it went to. He wanted to see where it was tied into the telegraph system, as he assumed. It was at that stage that he found that the wires went from the telegraph pole to a hideout in the back behind blackberry bushes in a neat little corner. Most people would have assumed that when the wire joined the telegraph pole that was the end of it. Mr. Moyna, being the meticulous type, climbed the pole to investigate further and made the discovery I have outlined. In the corner he discovered the transmitter and other arrangements for listening. On Tuesday, November 8 he called to Posts and Telegraphs sections at Distillery Road, Russell Street and Belcamp to see whether his phone fault had been recorded and from whence the three men came. The same day the senior Posts and Telegraphs man arrived following his inquiry, and later that evening Mr. Séamus Mallon arrived and set in motion the placing of the entire matter in the hands of the Taoiseach for full and immediate investigation.

People have asked why Mr. Moyna did not hand over the packages to the Posts and Telegraphs official. I do not think I have to explain to Members of this House why he did not do that. Obviously he had communicated with Mr. Mallon who had considered how the matter should be handled, at what level and with what confidentiality this matter should be handled because it affected security. Consequently when the official arrived Mr. Moyna showed him the wire but kept the other material until Mr. Mallon arrived later that evening. Mr. Moyna prepared as full an account as he could of what had happened and this was given to the Taoiseach by Mr. Séamus Mallon. The matter was so sensitive, occurring in the midst of the Forum deliberations, that he considered this to be the only sensible approach since the matter obviously involved security.

These, very briefly, are the events which preceded the Taoiseach's involvement in the affair. It has since been confirmed officially that on 16 November the Taoiseach got Mr. Moyna's report, read it and transmitted it to the Minister for Justice. Questions which still remain unanswered are, first, did the Minister for Justice read the report which contained reference to the microphone and the transmitter? That report was published in one of the weekend's newspapers, I have a copy here which I can show anyone who wants to see it. One could not read the two pages without seeing very clearly one-third of the way down "a microphone" and two-thirds of the way down, in block capitals, "a transmitter". Mr. Moyna spelled out in a very simple and straightforward way the events as they occurred. That report was handed to the Taoiseach and he handed it to the Minister for Justice. Second, did the Minister for Justice read the report which contained reference to the microphone and transmitter? Third, when did he pass the report to the Garda Commissioner for action?

We know that on 6 December, Detective Inspector Hawkshaw called on the senior Posts and Telegraphs technician and took his statement. This means there was a gap between 16 November and 6 December. The questions I ask are: did the Minister consider that this delay was warranted? Is this the way he would normally deal with such a serious security matter? On 11 January the Minister for Justice gave reports from Posts and Telegraphs officials, plus a covering letter from the Garda, to the Taoiseach. Here we must ask: had he read these reports? Why did he not question the fact that even at this late date the Garda had not called on the Moynas to collect the listening equipment and investigate the alleged bugging? Did he tell the Taoiseach he was satisfied that the report was comprehensive? Was he himself satisfied? In this respect we can refer to the statement issued by the Department of Justice and the Garda Síochána which must be regarded as the Minister's official view since it is the view of the Department and the Garda as expresed at that time.

This statement which was released by the Government Information Services says that it transpired that the Posts and Telegraphs official had already received a complaint from the occupants and that there had been two visits to the house by Posts and Telegraphs officials who had been given what seemed to be detailed accounts of the events. Statements were taken by the Garda from the Posts and Telegraphs officials concerned. That was a reasonable thing to do but we know now that those officials came before the case was presented to the Taoiseach.

The investigating garda assumed that what had been said to the Posts and Telegraphs official was a full account of what the occupant had to say. The Garda were conscious of the fact that the only allegations the occupants had made at official level had been to Posts and Telegraphs officials and not to the Garda and they had no reason to think that any information had been withheld from those officials. The Garda assumed that an earlier reference to a microphone, etc., must have been due to some misunderstanding.

The statement said that: "the gardaí were conscious of the fact that the only allegations the occupants had made at official level ...." Is the Taoiseach not official level? Is the Minister for Justice not official level? What does that statement mean? That statement cannot be true because we know that Mr. Mallon, recognising the need for confidentiality, had placed the matter solely in the hands of the Taoiseach, who placed it in the hands of his Minister. It is very difficult to understand how the Garda took that approach to the report. Somebody at some level in the Garda Síochána and the Department of Justice must have had a copy of the report which the Taoiseach received and which he said he gave to the Minister for Justice.

That statement goes on to say that a report was supplied to the Department of Justice by the Garda and the substance of it was brought to the notice of the Taoiseach. At that point it was not known that any further investigation would be made and no mention of such a possibility was made to the Taoiseach. Shortly after that the Garda decided to seek an interview with the occupants of the house. They had earlier hesitated to seek such an interview because the occupants, presumably deliberately, had not raised the matter with them.

To whom should Mr. Mallon have given the report? Was he not being responsible and conscientious in the way he handled this matter by presenting it to the Taoiseach and the Minister? Apparently the view was that since the matter had not been raised directly with the Garda there was hesitation about calling on the occupants of the house. In evidence of this it was suggested that the occupants, when approached by the investigating Garda inspector made it clear that they were not expecting that approach and he was asked who had sent him, why he was investigating this matter and so on. The facts are that the Garda officer rang in the morning, asked to come, was told he could come and when he came after tea he met Mr. Moyna who asked him who he was and who had sent him. That was all. That was a very reasonable thing to ask given the fact that other people had been there before. He was entitled to be a little surprised when the Garda inspector arrived on 12 January when the report had been made on 16 November. Would you not be surprised if a Garda inspector came at that stage? The whole story was given to the Garda at that time.

Then we go on to other statements dealing with the technical assessment of the matter. On the last page it says that "a Garda report about the matter had not been sent to the Taoiseach before the matter was raised this week-end by a newspaper". On 12 January, Detective Inspector Hawkshaw rang Mrs. Moyna to ask if he could come out to their home. She suggested he wait until after 7 p.m. when her husband would be home. This was the day after the report had been given to the Taoiseach. Is this not very significant? Why not call before the report was given to the Taoiseach? Was this a proper way to serve the Taoiseach? The Taoiseach has said in the Official Report of 21 February 1984, Volume 348, column 288 that when the Garda report was received in the Department of Justice:

... it was immediately sent to me because I was about to meet Séamus Mallon but after that, as a result of an evaluation by the Minister for Justice, it was suggested to the Garda that there could be no real objection to their seeking an interview with the occupants and that it would be better to do so.

This was a strange time to say that there was no objection to their seeking an interview with the occupants. It was surprising that it was left until the day after the report had been given back to the Taoiseach, which was 12 January. The coincidence of those two dates is quite remarkable — the 11th January, the day on which the report was given to the Taoiseach by the Minister for Justice, and from the Taoiseach it goes to Séamus Mallon. Then on 12 January the Garda called to the home of the Moynas to collect the equipment and also to carry out an investigation. Why did the Minister for Justice wait until the Posts and Telegraphs reports had been given to Séamus Mallon before sending the Garda to the Moyna home? Surely Séamus Mallon could have been expected not to accept the Posts and Telegraphs reports when the Garda had not even called to collect the equipment? Was it not a case of the Minister for Justice hoping that the matter would rest at that? It was obvious that the Taoiseach recognised from his statement, as contained in the Official Report of 21 February, 1984 at column 286, the discrepancy between the Minister for Justice's report of 11 January and the original Moyna statement given to him by Séamus Mallon on 16 November which clearly mentioned the existence of the microphone and transmitter. Surely it was obvious to the Taoiseach at that stage that there was a glaring omission in that report. Had he looked at the date he would have seen that the Posts and Telegraphs officials had called before he had passed on that document. It is obvious that the Taoiseach and the Minister either knew that there were clear indications of a cover-up attempt or they were themselves involved in it.

The Taoiseach's statement suggests that once Séamus Mallon received the Posts and Telegraphs reports he was satisfied and did not wish to pursue the matter any further. Clearly this was not the case. Séamus Mallon rightly regarded the investigation by the Posts and Telegraphs official as being largely irrelevant since it had been conducted on 8 and 9 November before the Moyna report had been given to the Taoiseach on 16 November, before the Taoiseach had promised Mr. Mallon a full Garda investigation and long before the Garda called to the Moyna home on 12 January to investigate the alleged bugging and take away the listening devices which were kept there for them. I find it very difficult to believe that the Taoiseach was not aware of the representations being made by Séamus Mallon to get a full report of the investigation which he knew to be in progress.

My information on the events is as follows: on 12 January the detective inspector investigating the case called to the Moyna home to get their verbal account of the events and to collect the microphone and transmitter. On 1 February Séamus Mallon told his direct Foreign Affairs contact that he wanted answers concerning the promised investigation by the Garda of the planting of the listening devices. This is his direct and immediate line to the Taoiseach. He expects that his increasing concern and annoyance at the long delay in getting an answer will be conveyed immediately to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice. Naturally he would expect that because that is the reason such a contact is provided — for immediate and direct contact. So immediate and direct is this contact in normal terms that the Taoiseach refers to it from time to time as he having received something from Mr. Mallon, or having given something to Mr. Mallon, which in effect is given to the contact who gives it to Mr. Mallon or is received through the contact from Mr. Mallon. There are a number of errors in that respect which are natural errors in some of the comments that have been made by the Taoiseach and in some of the statements that have been made. But in effect it is through this direct contact that this is done. That was 1 February that Mr. Mallon protests that he wants answers concerning the promised investigation.

On 2 February Moyna's nephew, Donal, is arrested under section 30 of the Offences Against the State Act in circumstances which on the information available so far raise questions of a most serious nature. On 4 February Moyna's nephew is charged under the same Act with an alleged offence. On 7 February Séamus Mallon tells his official contact that he is still demanding to know what is being done about the investigation by the Garda into the bugging incident. This is a second instance of Mr. Mallon making his position very clear, that he largely regarded the Posts and Telegraphs report as prior to the items and the Moyna report being handed over and that he was waiting to have the matter cleared up. He stresses that this is his wish notwithstanding the alleged charge being pursued against Moyna's nephew in a totally unrelated matter. He believes that his concern is again relayed to the Taoiseach in the normal way as a matter of urgency and priority because that is the normal way any of those contacts are handled and that is the reason for having that arrangement. At that stage he was becoming particularly frustrated with his attempts to have the matter closed off, concluded and put away, however it was to be put away.

Then on 19 February the Mallon affair was reported in the Sunday Tribune having allegedly been leaked by a “confidant” of the Taoiseach. Was this a “deep throat” or a concerned civil servant? The Taoiseach claims in the Official Report of 21 February at column 291 that up to that date he did not know that the Garda had made further inquiries after 11 January and that a report of these inquiries existed. I emphasise: the Taoiseach did not know at that late stage that a further investigation had been carried out after 11 January and that a report of these inquiries existed. The Taoiseach claims also in the Official Report of 21 February at column 293 that Séamus Mallon:

...accepted what was in the report

— that is, the Posts and Telegraphs report —

and that the earlier suggestion

— of the existence of a microphone and transmitter—

must have been without foundation.

The Taoiseach continued to say:

I presumed if he

— that is, Séamus Mallon —

felt the earlier suggestion was valid, despite what was said in the report, he would take up the matter further with me.

It appears that the Taoiseach had in mind that Mr. Mallon might be taking up the matter further with him because, of course, the Taoiseach would have known very clearly from the report he had on his file and desk that these two major items, the microphone and transmitter, were clearly spelled out in the report.

Again, in a further reference to this central issue the Taoiseach said in the Official Report of 21 February, at column 298:

... at no stage did Séamus Mallon suggest to me that the original allegation made was substantial or that he was dissatisfied with that report which, on the face of it, showed no evidence of any microphone or transmitter.

But Séamus Mallon understood that he had taken up the matter further with the Taoiseach via his Foreign Affairs contact. Is the Taoiseach saying that he was not informed of these further representations? Was the Taoiseach not aware of the Garda activity taking place? Did the Minister for Justice not inform his Taoiseach of these events? Are we witnessing a saga of incredible incompetence and carelessness on the part of our Taoiseach and Minister for Justice, or is this something more sinister and even more disturbing? That is a question Members of this House must face.

The next point at which the Taoiseach's approach is highly questionable is when he issued his early morning statement on the Sunday. His Press Secretary, Mr. Peter Prendergast, apparently informed the Taoiseach that the Sunday Tribune article was coming. His Press Secretary was always sensitive to the impact of the media. In my view he panicked and got the Taoiseach to prepare a rebuttal by way of a statement of the facts. This would appear to have been a cardinal error for two main reasons.

First by so doing the Taoiseach exposed to the nation the fact that his Minister for Justice had allegedly not bothered to inform him of the visit of the Special Branch to Moyna's home and of the fact that they were in possession of the listening devices. If the Taoiseach's statement is true, then his Justice Minister was either grossly incompetent or he was involved in a cover-up in concealing this important evidence even from his Taoiseach. The Taoiseach later said that he was unaware — this was the Official Report dated 21 February 1984, col. 291 — that listening devices had been obtained, and that the Moyna report had been correct. His Minister for Justice can hardly have been so unaware of these facts since on his suggestion the gardaí collected the listening devices and interviewed the occupants of the house — I refer to the Official Report 21 February 1984, col. 288. Is it any wonder that the Minister for Justice has been so silent, refusing to be interviewed?

Secondly, the Taoiseach's decision to open his statement on Sunday 19 February with a reference to a private and confidential request from Séamus Mallon, Deputy Leader of the SDLP — I quote from The Irish Times, 20 February — that “the application of sections of the Offences Against the State Act that precludes someone convicted under the Act from being in State employment, be lifted in respect of a person (Mr. Moyna's nephew, Donal) who had been convicted of an offence in connection with the British Embassy riot”. This was a clear and very obvious attempt to smear in public the Moyna family and, by implication, Séamus Mallon himself. This attempted smear was successful in the short term. I know the community in which the Moyna family live: in fact, they live not very far from me. I know them to be a very honourable and peace-loving family and I know the impact it has had on them. When someone tries to suggest it has not had this effect, I will bring them to the scene and let them see the effect this smear campaign has had in the short term.

Is it possible that the Taoiseach inspired such a smear campaign? If he did not inspire it, then who has the Taoiseach on a string? Whose grip on the Taoiseach is so strong that he can be enticed to conspire to destroy the reputations of two decent and upright citizens whose only apparent crime was to provide a safe refuge for a man in constant danger of assassination because of his strong defence of constitutional politics? This first statement, apparently made at the request of the Government Press Secretary, represented the worst kind of character assassination in which a Government can be involved. Séamus Mallon has sought an apology from the Taoiseach. He deserves at least that. The Taoiseach betrayed a confidence for shallow political expediency. Who would now be foolish enough to entrust a confidence to this man?

The Minister for Justice showed no respect for the Deputy Leader of the SDLP, or for those who provided him with hospitality and a safe house. This was a strange contradiction in standards for a man who only a year earlier purported to be so highly sensitive to the tapping of the phones of two journalists. Séamus Mallon asked that the matter be investigated in a secure and confidential way. For his co-operation he was treated with contempt. He did not seek publicity or attempt to jeopardise the State's security. Contrast Mallon's statesmanship with the Minister for Justice who just a year previously did not hesitate to destroy the careers and reputations of two senior Garda officers for petty political advantage. He has now further damaged the morale and reputation of our Garda force, a force of which we can be justly proud, by leaving this cloud of uncertainty caused by his obvious lack of direction in this most serious bugging incident.

Following receipt of the Moyna report in mid-November, why did the Minister not immediately order the investigation of the bugging incident? Was it because he already knew all the answers? Why has the Moyna house to this day not been "swept" for listening devices? Does the Minister not consider the Deputy Leader of the SDLP to be worthy of his personal attention? Had he so little regard for Séamus Mallon's intelligence that he thought he could be fobbed-off with a facile report? Was he too busy persecuting a hapless member of the force who had already been found innocent by the courts in connection with a car crash in Kerry? What are this Minister's priorities? The Mallon affair should have been at the top of his list. Are we now to assume that anybody who makes the Minister uncomfortable or disagrees with his views will run the risk of having his family and friends suffer from the vindictiveness of the Government?

Did the Minister for Justice authorise the tapping of the Moynas' telephone? Has this tap now been removed? Can the Minister give me a categorical assurance that my home telephone is not tapped? I demand to know the answer because I also receive communications from "deep throats" who are concerned at strange happenings in the Minister's bailiwick. Is it true that having failed to get the information he wanted on Séamus Mallon, the Minister authorised or turned a blind eye to an attempt to plant a listening device under the breakfast table where Séamus Mallon dined?

This whole saga of the Mallon affair has done much to undermine confidence in the ability of the Government to handle security. The story being put about now is that this bugging was done by some maverick group within the specialised branches without the prior knowledge of the Minister. If this was the case, then who is in control of security? If this was so, then why did the Minister not immediately, thoroughly and conclusively investigate the matter and report, with appropriate assurances, to Séamus Mallon? All Séamus Mallon wanted was to have the matter investigated and have the appropriate assurances given. If the Taoiseach and the Minister had done this in the first instance when they were asked to, then we would not be discussing it this evening and nobody would know of it.

If it was the Provisional IRA, why did he not immediately investigate and provide security for Séamus Mallon and the Moynas? But then would the Provos be in a position to cut off the phone, fix the fault, supply all the Posts and Telegraph equipment involved, synchronise the arrival of the three men and a Posts and Telegraphs-type van? This is hardly likely.

The most likely explanation, given all the information at our disposal, is that Moyna's phone was tapped and this failed to yield the information desired by the Taoiseach and his Minister for Justice. It was then decided to install a listening device in the House and this job was bungled mainly because of the meticulous nature of the houseowner. The attempted cover-up failed. The attempted smear failed because of the honesty and forthrightness of Séamus Mallon, and his decency and concern for the Moyna family. To his these good people were not expendable. It would have been far easier for him to withdraw and protect his own character from the smear but this was not his nature. He stood by his hosts. With such a man you can surely sit down to talk with confidence of a new Ireland and know that your trust will be respected.

No matter who was involved, the Government stand condemned for their incompetent and vindictive handling of the affair. The only recourse now is to salvage public confidence and the confidence of this House through an independent judicial inquiry as suggested in our motion.

Limerick East): I oppose this motion. Nevertheless I welcome the opportunity to deal with the various points that have arisen in one way or another. It also gives me the opportunity to deal with jibes that I have taken refuge in silence. As for my silence, I know there are people who do not like to let facts interfere with the free flow of their imagination but nevertheless I propose to recount some facts.

The matter we are referring to — the bugging or the attempted bugging of a house—was first published in the Sunday Tribune on 19 February. On that day a statement was issued by the Taoiseach concerning the complaint that had been made to him about it. One day later, on 20 February, in association with the Garda Síochána, I issued through the GIS a long statement about it. I find it difficult to understand how it could be suggested in the face of that statement that I was silent on the matter.

The day after that, the Leader of the Opposition decided to table a Private Notice Question to the Taoiseach and to direct a number of supplementary questions to the Taoiseach. I assume it is not suggested that it was either necessary or appropriate for me to try to intervene in those exchanges.

On the following day, Deputy Woods tabled a Private Notice Question to me. It was ruled out of order. The issue of my speaking in the House did not arise on that occasion. At the same time, if not before that, it became clear that I would be called on to speak this week in a debate of the kind we are now having. I am speaking at the earliest possible moment in this debate. I strongly believe, and I say this without intending to be in any way acrimonious, that Deputy Woods knew perfectly well his Private Notice Question was blatantly out of order and had no prospect whatsoever of being accepted since it could not possibly be regarded as urgent. I believe the question was put down as a Private Notice Question for the express purpose of getting some political mileage out of a claim that the Opposition were not being allowed to raise matters, and that we the Government side, and I in particular, were running away from them.

I should like to begin by clarifying some points raised in public. The most important clarification from my point of view concerns certain interpretations put on comments made by the Taoiseach in his statement in the House about the reaction of Mr. and Mrs. Moyna to the approach made to them by the Garda. As might be expected, what the Taoiseach said in that respect was based on material supplied to him by me, so I have a special interest in clearing up those points.

The Taoiseach said that the reaction of Mr. and Mrs. Moyna to the approach to them by the Garda was one of surprise. That has been publicly misinterpreted as an allegation that their reaction to the Garda approach was hostile. I genuinely do not know how anybody could think that a reaction as being one of surprise was intended to convey that it was a hostile reaction. Even if the word had been ambiguous, which it was not, the context also made it clear that that was not what was intended.

The point being made was that the Garda Síochána had been hesitant to interview the two Moynas because they felt that the Moynas might not have intended that the Garda should be brought into the matter and, as it turned out, it appeared that was not an unreasonable feeling for the Garda to have had——

Could we have some copies of the Minister's speech? Apparently the Press Gallery have been given copies but Members of the House, particularly Members of the Opposition, have not.

(Limerick East): I am speaking from notes and script. The question of hostility did not arise in any way in the Taoiseach's comment. Similarly, and in the same context, the point was made in the Taoiseach's statement that while the status of Séamus Mallon was well recognised he is not the occupant of the House and that what the Garda had to take into account primarily was the attitude of the occupants. This has been construed publicly as meaning that whereas Mr. Mallon is a man of honour, Mr. and Mrs. Moyna are to be taken as people of a different type in the eyes of the Garda Síochána — most emphatically not so.

If the words themselves leave any room for any doubt, which I very strongly deny, the context makes it clear that no such meaning was intended. The meaning is straightforward and, I believe, quite clear. At the time this statement was made Mr. Mallon already had made certain comments that left no doubt that at all relevant times he had wanted the Garda investigation. The point being made in the Taoiseach's statement was that although Mr. Mallon is a senior member of the SDLP and a public figure, his wishes in this matter would not necessarily have been the determining factor because it was the Moynas, not Mr. Mallon, who had the right to have the determining voice.

It seemed to the Garda, rightly or wrongly, that the Moynas had reservations about involving the Garda Síochána. I repeat that that did not mean that they were hostile or in any way unco-operative. They were neither. If they had been under the impression — I do not know if they had been — that that was intended, I very much regret it was so. As far as I and the Garda are concerned, no issue of any kind that could be defined as antagonism had arisen as between the Garda on the one hand and Mr. Mallon and Mr. and Mrs. Moyna on the other. There may have been some misunderstandings but that is a very different matter.

This brings me to the second main point that I am anxious to make by way of clarification. There has been much talk about the sophistication or lack of it of the equipment used and the effectiveness of it as installed and about the skill or amateurishness displayed in the matter of the wiring and so on. The impression has been created that the Garda are engaged in some way in making a case which it is in their interest to make and which they are determined to defend at all costs, and that ranged against them are Mr. and Mrs. Moyna with the backing of an admixture of people. We have had Deputy Woods seeming to act as if he and the Garda were acting in competition in the collection of evidence. We have had statements that the transmitter found was one that transmitted on the Garda frequency, a point that, though not of much importance, admittedly might be of some interest if it had been right. I am assured that it is not right.

I should like to try to put this matter back on the rails. The Garda are not setting themselves up against Mr. and Mrs. Moyna. They have no vested interest, nor of course have the Government, in putting forward anything but the truth, in so far as we know it, about the equipment, about the manner of its installation or any other aspect of it. It is an easily verifiable fact that the technical advice from within the Garda was and is that this was an unsophisticated device. That, too, is the view of competent people from outside the force who have studied the matter. For very good reasons, the Garda view has been that that device as installed was not effective to transmit normal conversations in the room in which the microphone was. They carried out several tests to check it in conditions materially similar to those in which it was reported to have been found. On both points the Garda reported the facts as they had found and evaluated them. If they had found that the device was highly sophisticated and effective there is no reason whatsoever why they would not have said so. Furthermore, if it was now to be shown that because, for instance, of some information given to them that was either incorrect or misunderstood, any of their conclusions was mistaken, there is no reason whatsoever why they should not change their evaluation. They are not selling a product or a theory, but as of now they have no basis for changing.

For the same reason it is quite misleading to suggest that the Government or the Taoiseach claimed or maintained this or that about the equipment. We have stated the position as it was given to us. We have published that information because it helps people to form a conclusion as to what the whole thing may have been about. If the information had been any different we would also have published it.

The same applies to the manner of the wiring. In the Sunday Tribune of 27 February, it is stated that photographs taken by Mr. Moyna overstate the crudeness of the manner of wiring and that the photographs relate to wiring not as found by him but as temporarily replaced by him. I do not know if this is so, but if it is, well and good — it may modify a little the impression that has been given. The photographs were understood by the Garda to have been given to them precisely to show the kind of work that had been done, but I do not think much hinges on any difference because Mr. Moyna himself put strong emphasis on the very bad workmanship that was displayed.

The point about all this is that the evidence appears to point strongly towards a conclusion that the job was done in the full knowledge that it would be discovered very quickly. It is but a short step from that to the conclusion that it may well have been put there for the specific purpose of being discovered though there is, in theory at least, the possibility that it was put there in the belief that it could pick up such conversations as might take place in a short period after its installation on the basis that the foreseeable subsequent discovery of the equipment was irrelevant. But that raises questions of how it could be thought that such conversations were likely to take place in the short period before detection. One way or the other, the evidence was put forward on a neutral factual basis to help towards an understanding of what is involved, not in an effort to paint a particular picture.

I repeat with all the emphasis that I can that the Garda Síochána have no interest whatsoever in putting forward any particular theory, or in adhering to any particular theory if new facts emerge to invalidate any views that have been put forward.

This brings me to the matter of the siting of the microphone. Deputy Woods, without apparently realising that what he was saying would do damage to another of his theories, announced that it was three inches up the wall — but then retracted.

On a point of order, that information is not true. That is someone's interpretation.

(Limerick East): Likewise, it seems that his expert witness was not quite as supportive of his views as he had expected. The latest suggestion about the microphone in the Sunday Tribune is that it was between an upturned end of the carpet and the wall. I have seen Mr. Moyna's written statements. It will not be in dispute that he stated clearly more than once that the microphone was under the carpet. The Garda assessment of the ineffectiveness of the device as installed was based on what they had been told. I do not know if the Sunday Tribune report means that Mr. Moyna now believes that he was mistaken in what he said. If that is the position, fair enough. The Gardaí will take that into account and see how it may affect their view of the episode as a whole.

I now turn to the question of the lapse of time between the handing over of the complaint to me by the Taoiseach on 18 November and the interviewing of the Moynas on 12 January. In the joint statement issued by my Department and the Garda Síochána on Monday of last week, it was said that the Garda decided to seek that interview only just shortly before it took place. On the following day, in his statement the Taoiseach amplified that by saying that as a result of an evaluation by me it was suggested to the Garda at that stage that they should arrange such an interview. I note that the Sunday Tribune commentary by Mr. Vincent Browne looks on those two statements as contradictory and asks “Which is it?”. The answer is “Both”. There is no contradiction. The decision to interview was made by the Garda. The suggestion that such an interview should be sought was made on my behalf by my Department.

I cannot refrain at this point from observing that when Mr. Browne noted that I decided to convey that response to the Garda Síochána, a response that he earlier suggested that the Taoiseach should have conveyed, he proceeded to question the right of the Minister for Justice to give, as he puts it, directives as to the way in which the Garda should carry out their investigations. Heads he wins, tails I lose.

As I have said, the suggestion that the two Moynas should be interviewed was made at that point on my behalf to the Garda Síochána and on receiving information to that effect the Garda arranged to interview the Moynas. Within the last 48 hours, however, I have learned that the explanation given in the joint statement as to why the Garda had not done this earlier does not do full justice to the perspective of at least some of those involved on the Garda side. I think it is right to clear it up. The written complaint received by the Taoiseach was handed by an officer of my Department to a Garda officer. There was discussion about the need to carry out the inquiries in a discreet way and specifically of the need to keep the information in a very small circle, so as to avoid the danger of leaks. But the thrust of the discussion was interpreted on the Garda side as meaning also that inquiries would be confined to P and T officials unless the Garda then got confirmation that interviewing the Moynas would not involve any breach of confidence or any understanding that might have been reached between the Taoiseach and Mr. Mallon, or anything of that kind.

That interpretation corresponded with an underlying Garda perspective that they were approached in this matter in an unorthodox way, with the result that they apparently felt unsure about what exactly they were expected to do and were concerned that they might be acting in a way that was unwanted by the complainants. The result was that for a significant part of the period before the interviews with Mr. and Mrs. Moyna, action was effectively held up because of this misunderstanding. It is relevant to note that it was a time of extreme pressure because of a variety of other events. However, that stage ended when, as a result of an inquiry from the Taoiseach, an immediate written report was sought on 12 January and the fact that the two Moynas had not been interviewed was noted in my Department when the documents were read.

I am giving this explanation. I do not wish in any way to evade or blur my responsibility as Minister in the matter. As Minister, I received the complaint and undertook to have it looked into. I have to accept, and do readily accept, that for the reasons I have outlined an unfortunate delay arose. I have given the explanation because an explanation is called for, in view of developments.

I now turn to the specific terms of the motion. This day week, the Leader of the Opposition, by means of a Private Notice Question to the Taoiseach, began the call in this House for a judicial inquiry to investigate the circumstances of the bugging, or attempted bugging, of the house where Mr. Mallon stayed from time to time. The Leader of the Opposition knows as well as anybody in this House — and better than most — that the idea that such an inquiry could do anything to find the culprits would not bear examination. I do not propose to delay the House by raising issues about the principles involved in the setting up of an inquiry to deal with something that might later have to be determined by a court. It is unnecessary to raise such issues because the proposal fails on the practical level. It would not work.

An inquiry could not secure an admission from the culprit unless the culprit were before it in the first place. Who is to identify the culprit in order to bring him, her or them before the tribunal? The Garda Síochána are not in a position to do so. Even if they were able to identify someone as having been involved, their duty would be to submit a report to the DPP with a view to seeing whether there were grounds for criminal prosecution. If a situation were to arise where the Garda Síochána had information identifying those responsible, or narrowing the range of identifiable suspects to manageable proportions and if it became clear that no prosecution could be taken and if it then appeared that a tribunal could be set up to conduct an investigation that would not infringe on the basic rights of those involved — three very big "ifs"— the matter could, no doubt, be looked at again. But as matters stand, the setting up of such a tribunal would mean that we would have a tribunal solemnly sitting to ascertain culpability with no evidence available to it on which it could do so.

The Leader of the Opposition suggested that the tribunal could work in association with the Garda Síochána. So, indeed, it could — but to what purpose, since the Garda cannot identify any particular individual? That suggestion, therefore, is devoid of substance — and I suggest it is clearly known to be so. Why then is this demand made by people who must know that the tribunal they are seeking could not have any prospect of success?

(Limerick East): This whole business of eavesdropping, bugging, telephone tapping and so on is something that many people find fascinating, but it is an area where essential distinctions are often blurred and sometimes totally forgotten. The Opposition objective, stated simply, is to confuse the public about what is involved. They have set out to sell the idea that a bug is a bug and that there is some kind of comparison between what has happened here and the events of 1982. There is none.

This is much worse.

The Government are making their defence in a manner which is disgraceful.

(Limerick East): There is, quite simply, no comparison between an incident in which three unknown men, for reasons unknown ——

Did the Minister give them instructions? He gave them instructions.

(Limerick East):——place a listening device in a private house in circumstances where it is obvious to all responsible people that there could be no possible question of any Government involvement and in which, needless to say, there is not, and could not be, a little of evidence to suggest that there is and, on the other hand, a situation in which telephones were improperly tapped on the instigation of a Government Minister.

The three men who turned up at the house in north Dublin were not acting with the knowledge or approval of the Minister for Justice, still less at his instigation — despite what Deputy Woods tried to read into the record tonight. Neither were they acting on the say-so of the head of the Garda Síochána. Whatever else they were at, they were not there to collect information about what some Members of the Cabinet might be saying about the Taoiseach.

No, Sir, that attempted comparison will not work. But I must say that the worst aspect of this whole saga has been the outrageous attack made by certain members of the Fianna Fáil Party on the Garda Síochána. It is a sad situation when the main Opposition in this country will refuse to believe categoric denials by the Garda Síochána, repeated by the Garda Commissioner, and will take the word of the Provisional IRA that they were not involved.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Minister is a liar.

Nonsense.

(Limerick East): On the question of the amendment to the motion——

Out of his mouth, he condemns himself.

A Deputy

The Commissioner has not explained Claremorris yet.

(Limerick East): On the question of the amendment to the motion, I shall just refer to it briefly. The proposition that a review of the general legal position of our privacy would be desirable is one that I would not oppose in principle, but I have to make two points, the first that it is an extremely wide-ranging and complex subject and one that certainly would take quite a lot of time and resource to investigate. The second is related to that and is that, whatever else may be said, a judicial inquiry under the 1921 Act would be a totally inappropriate way of going about it.

On a point of order, I want to point out to the Chair that the Minister has misled him and the House on one matter and probably on every matter he has mentioned. He read every single word of his statement from a document which he did not circulate to the Members of the Opposition in accordance with the rules of this House.

Deputy De Rossa to move the Adjournment.

(Limerick East): On a point of order, I had a bundle of notes in front of me and a complete script arrived just before I started to speak.

(Interruptions.)

On a point of information——

(Limerick East): I will arrange that the Members will get full copies of the script. I had a bundle of notes in front of me. A complete script arrived and I had some notes at the end.

The Minister's word is no longer accepted in the House.

On a point of information, how long has Deputy De Rossa got?

He has half-a-hour and the next speaker will be from Fianna Fáil.

In order to set Deputy Burke's mind at ease I will not be taking half an hour. I move amendment No. 1:

To add after "Kilbarrack", the following words:

"and other such incidences of telephone tapping or electronic eavesdropping which may be drawn to its attention; and to examine whether existing legislation offers sufficient protection to citizens against unwarranted intrusions into their privacy."

The purpose of the amendment is to broaden the scope of the inquiry proposed in the motion. Despite what the Minister says about the amendment I feel that in an inquiry which is looking into the question of phone tapping or bugging it is only reasonable to expect that they would take into account the present legal position for the protection of citizens.

The apparent attempt to bug the house in Kilbarrick used by the Deputy Leader of the SDLP, Mr. Séamus Mallon, is a matter of serious concern. We have had the spokesperson from the Fianna Fáil Party and the Minister for Justice repeating word for word the allegations and counter allegations that have been made in this whole controversy but it has not yet been clarified precisely what went on on the particular day when the attempted bugging took place. It appears to us that none of the parties involved in this controversy have been entirely convincing in their explanations and that the only way to clear the web of allegation and counter allegation is by the establishment of a judicial inquiry.

While the allegation in this case is one of concern, there have been other allegations of a similar nature made in recent years. We believe it would be a better use of public finance, and also give the Government an opportunity to fulfil one of their election promises, that any inquiry which takes place will not be limited to the Kilbarrick case but should conduct a comprehensive investigation into all similar allegations made in recent years, particularly the bugging of the phones of a number of journalists during 1982.

Many serious allegations have been made concerning activities of this nature, the illegal tapping of phones, the bugging of individuals and the abuses of the system by the tapping of telephones under warrant from the Minister for Justice. Indeed, in January last year there were a number of leaks from sources associated with the former Minister for Justice which suggested that the phones of The Workers' Party offices in Gardiner Place were being tapped and had been tapped during the terms of office of the two previous Coalition Governments. If our phones have been tapped it represents a serious attack on our democratic rights and a greater abuse of power on the part of the authorities.

When I tabled a number of questions to the Minister for Justice last year asking him to repeat the assurance given by the former Taoiseach, Mr. Jack Lynch, in 1970 — an assurance which was repeated on two subsequent occasions — that no phones of any TDs were being tapped, the Minister declined to give any such assurance. The failure of the Minister to do so can be reasonably interpreted as an admission that the phones of some TDs may in fact be tapped. If this is so it is a matter of serious concern, as serious, if not more so, than the allegations about the Mallon affair, and should be investigated by any judicial inquiry which the Dáil decides to establish.

The disclosure last year that the phones of two journalists, Miss Geraldine Kennedy and Mr. Bruce Arnold, had been tapped is also a matter of serious concern. It is an intolerable state of affairs that journalists phones can be tapped because the Government of the day do not like their stories. The circumstances in which warrants were issued by a Minister for Justice authorising this tapping have never been adequately investigated or explained and many questions still remain unanswered about that particular incident. It is, of course, necessary to remind the House at this stage that the inquiry which we have been promised into allegations of political interference with the Garda has not yet been held.

The Joint Fine Gael-Labour Programme for Government contained a specific pledge that there would be such an inquiry. The programme said that the inquiry would cover:

allegations of political interference with the gardaí, with terms of reference covering the past three years, and a remit to recommend any necessary action to ensure that such interference cannot take place in future.

This undertaking was repeated by the Minister for Justice in January last year when a series of disclosures led to the resignation of the two most senior Garda officers in the force. The plan for a judicial inquiry was supported at that time by Fianna Fáil. However, since then no action has been taken by the Coalition Government on this matter.

The allegations of political interference in the affairs of the Garda going back over a number of years are far too serious to be allowed to sink into the sea of the Government's broken promises which we have at the present time. The credibility and authority of the Garda has been damaged and will be damaged permanently unless there is a comprehensive and impartial inquiry into all of the allegations that have been made in recent years. It is my belief that the Garda would welcome such an inquiry. If the Government are not prepared to honour the commitment given in their election programme I believe they are stoking up the very great degree of apathy and cynicism which exists among the electorate concerning the possibility of a political solution to the many problems which face us.

One important element which has largely escaped attention in this controversy is the fact that even if those who placed the bugging device in the Moyna household are detected it is very doubtful if they could be charged with any criminal offence. While under the Postal and Telecommunications Act, which came into effect in January this year, it is now illegal to tap phones without a warrant, there is no law against planting a bugging device of the nature involved in this case. There is now an urgent need to introduce a Bill for the protection of privacy which would protect citizens against unwarranted electronic eavesdropping from any source. I feel this should be coupled with a Freedom of Information Bill which would guarantee all citizens reasonable access to files concerning them held by Government Departments, State agencies or commercial bodies.

These are the matters which a judicial inquiry could reasonably be expected to cover and should be looking at. Anything else will be of little lasting value to the citizens of this State. I urge the Government and the Fianna Fáil Party to support the amendment which The Workers' Party are putting before the House.

Before making my main points, it would be remiss of me if I did not mention the statement the Minister made to the House and say that he has treated the House with nothing but contempt. He made no effort to answer the many points raised both inside and outside the House since this matter was first published in the Sunday Tribune last Sunday week. He made no effort whatsoever to answer the question of his own failure to act on the complaint over a period of two months. On the contrary, in his contribution the Minister has raised more questions and has confirmed the need for a public sworn inquiry which we call for to be set up by the House.

In defence of his silence over the last two weeks, the Minister said if he had had an opportunity he would have come into the House. I ask the House to contrast that with his ability, sense of urgency and positive ambition to go out to the "Today Tonight" studios roughly this time last year when he was trying to spitefully destroy the organisation of which I am privileged to be a member. His silence during the last ten days compares very badly with his efforts in the spiteful campaign he carried on at that time.

In his contribution the Minister referred to the difference in the technical nature of the equipment found in the Moyna household and raised questions which should be properly answered by a sworn public inquiry. He raised questions with regard to the theory of the rough workmanship and whether the device was intended to be found. He refused to answer questions about the time lapse or why it took two days for such a serious matter to be brought to the attention of the Taoiseach. Why did the Minister when he was asked to carry out his duty by the Taoiseach fail so miserably to do so? He spoke about keeping the inquiry in a nice tight circle and about misunderstandings in the Garda force. I thought this was merely an incidence of totally inept handling by the Minister and the Taoiseach but the more I listened to the Minister and the Taoiseach and to the serious questions asked in the media in the last ten days, which he did not answer, the more I wondered if there is not something more sinister than just the Minister's recognised and proven inefficiency.

Why did the Minister not act from 18 November until 12 January and only then on the basis of a further query from the Taoiseach? The Minister made no effort to defend his position or explain it. We are entitled to an explanation as to why, as Minister for Justice entrusted with the Department of Justice, he made no effort to follow up a serious complaint that was made. The Minister asks who is to identify the culprit. If the Garda cannot identify anyone, which the Minister said, why have suggestions been made regarding the Provisional IRA and why did the Minister make spiteful comments regarding taking the word of the Garda against the Provos? The Minister cannot identify who the culprits are at this stage but he is still prepared to carry on in his usual form of being an expert on smears.

The primary responsibility of the Minister and of the Government of any nation is to provide for the security of its citizens. Security in this sense does not just mean security of borders and seas but, more importantly, security which would allow citizens to go about their daily lives without fear of intrusion by criminal elements in their homes or places of business and the mental security provided by the knowledge that they will not be spied upon in their homes by telephone tapping or other electrical bugging equipment, audio or visual. A citizens' right to protection must be matched by his meeting his responsibilities to the State in the sense that he is not a threat to the State. Only to that extent has the State the right to eavesdrop on citizens' conversations.

In the case before us tonight, neither the Minister nor the Government have performed their most basic duty to the Moyna family and Séamus Mallon. The Minister and the Taoiseach have been guilty of at least tardiness and carelessness, as mentioned in the editorial of The Irish Times of 22 February. They are guilty at the very minimum of failure to follow up the matter in the appropriate manner. Unfortunately, from a national point of view, the Taoiseach has been guilty of vindictiveness in his treatment of the Moyna family. I remind the House of the timescale of the incident we are debating and why we feel nothing short of a tribunal of inquiry is necessary. As we heard from Deputy Woods in his carefully prepared and argued contribution tonight, the Taoiseach on 16 November was given two documents by Séamus Mallon. They were given to an official of a Government Department. Two days later — I ask why this official took two days to handle such a serious matter — the Taoiseach asked the Minister to investigate the matter. When did the Minister ask the Garda to investigate the bugging? How long was it from the time it arrived in the Department to the time the Garda were asked to act?

The Minister was asked by the Taoiseach on 18 November to investigate this matter but he did not take any further action until 11 January when the Taoiseach gave Séamus Mallon two flimsy P & T reports from two Post Office officials who had investigated the bugging. Then they said this was a satisfactory reply to a complaint made on 16 November by the Deputy Leader of the SDLP. Following 11 January, Garda inquiries really only began and are still continuing. Why did it need the Minister to tell the Garda to call to the Moynas? As a layman I assume that if the Garda get a request from the Taoiseach, through the Minister for Justice, from the Deputy Leader of the constitutional Nationalist party of Northern Ireland that at least the Garda would interview the persons concerned. However, that was not the case. The Minister's excuse here was that this was to be kept in a nice, tight circle but it is not acceptable that it takes practically a ministerial directive to the Garda to do this. I do not want to attack the Garda. Indeed I say it as a defence of the Garda from the type of political interference that evidently exists.

Unfortunately, while these investigations are continuing the Taoiseach feels it appropriate — in a totally irresponsible way — to hurl innuendoes at Michael and Marjorie Moyna, even suggesting that they were hostile to the Garda inspector who visited them and, as stated in the editorial of the Sunday Tribune of 26 February, that there was a clear connection between them and one of the vilest form of subversive activity, the construction of bombs. No words would better describe the Taoiseach's approach than those used by the editorial in the Sunday Tribune as follows:

...that the Taoiseach should so cheaply and meanly vilify these people for the sole purpose of lessening the embarrassment this incident has caused him is a testimony to the extent to which he can debase himself while still presuming to have almost a monopoly of righteousness.

Throughout all this sad and sorry performance, the Minister for Justice has remained uncharacteristically silent. I should like to address a few questions to him and I hope that during the course of the debate somebody else will answer them as the Minister has not answered any questions. When the Taoiseach issued an instruction to have the matter investigated, why did the Minister for Justice not report back to him until nearly two months had elapsed? This delay would be unacceptable in the case of an ordinary citizen. However, when the complaint is made by the Deputy Leader of the constitutional Nationalist party of Northern Ireland, a party which is engaged in the great national effort of the Forum and where the individual concerned, Mr. Séamus Mallon, played such a key role and whom the Taoiseach meets on a weekly basis, the Minister's performance borders on national sabotage and I use the phrase advisedly.

Recently I had the privilege of representing the Members of our Parliament as one of a delegation to London under the auspices of the Inter-Parliamentary Union. I met many fellow parliamentarians from both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. We also met the Foreign Secretary, Sir Geoffrey Howe, and the Northern Ireland Secretary, Mr. James Prior. Incidentally, like other members of the delegation, I was depressed by the low level of interest in or knowledge of Irish affairs and the lack of a sense of urgency of the need for a speedy solution to our national tragedy which was claimed 2,500 lives. However, any interest shown in Ireland was in the outcome of the Forum and any action by the Government which would damage the credibility of the Forum is to be abhorred. There was a dereliction of duty by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice in not following up this matter and it has damaged our national image and that of the Forum.

If the Minister signed a telephone tapping warrant for the Moyna household either before or since 11 November it should be clarified by the tribunal. I would not normally raise such a question in the House but the Minister set the precedent regarding warrants about this time last year, or slightly earlier, when, for political expediency, he spoke on the "Today Tonight" programme regarding warrants. An answer as to whether the Minister did or did not sign it would remove the aura of suspicion in the public mind with regard to Garda involvement in this unfortunate matter. Since their foundation, the Garda have served the people and successive Governments loyally and honourably. I confidently believe they will continue to do so but it is the Minister's duty, as political head of the Department of Justice, to ensure that the Garda are given the manpower, resources and equipment to carry out their task. For the Minister to make the spiteful suggestion that in some way we were casting aspersions on the Garda and accepting the word of the Provos is even below the level of the Minister's form of political attack.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Because of the contradictory expert opinion with regard to the bugging equipment as to whether it is crude, efficient or effective, does the Minister not consider that this matter should be properly investigated by a separate tribunal similar to that which we have suggested? We are going through a very difficult time economically and socially. Over 200,000 people are unemployed, many are school leavers from second level colleges and there are also unemployed graduates. The response of the institutions of State to the predicament facing our people is subject to critical examination of a type to which they have never before been subjected. There is a depressing level of cynicism with regard to the ability of the State to respond to the crisis which we are facing. It is incumbent on any Government not only to be just, correct and even-handed in the performance of their duty but also to be seen to be so. Our party feel strongly that the Government have failed, either through ineptitude or vindictiveness, to meet the criteria in their handling of the matter before us. In order to restore confidence in the institutions of the State, it is vital that the Government should agree to the establishment of this tribunal.

The Workers' Party tabled an amendment to our proposal and I see much merit in the section which asks for the inquiry to examine whether existing legislation offers sufficient protection to citizens against unwarranted intrusion into their privacy. Such an examination is timely when one considers the advances in technology that have taken place in recent years. Our legislation which authorises the Minister to sign a warrant for phone tapping was drafted at a time of less technical advancement. It is appropriate that the rights of our citizens should be protected by legislation in such areas as micro-bugging of homes, a very important matter. My understanding of the technical advances is that bugging equipment is now so small and sophisticated that it can be implanted with no great difficulty.

Debate adjourned.
Barr
Roinn