Deputy Bertie Ahern has been given permission to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of a Private Notice Question which he submitted today to the Minister for Finance but which did not qualify as a Private Notice Question. I ask him please to read the question by way of introduction.
Adjournment Debate. - Customs Officers Dispute.
My question was:
To ask the Minister for Finance if, in view of the strike by members of the Irish Customs and Excise Union due to commence at midnight and the grave financial, economic and social consequences for the country which such a strike will have, he will state the steps he proposes to take to prevent the strike; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I thank you, Sir, for allowing this question. I know that you have been very much tried during the course of the week and you were very helpful in allowing Deputy Gallagher and me to raise this matter.
The Minister will agree that this is a serious strike and I have not brought him back here from his Department at 5 p.m. to create any unnecessary row. This strike is partly the concern of his Department but mainly of the Department of the Public Service. At midnight tonight 700 of the officers involved at airports, the land frontier, as it is called, and the various ports will leave their duty posts and will not be replaced. While a tiny number of other people are involved, it has been made quite clear on an unofficial basis what might be said on an official basis, that these people will not be in a position to do any of the duties done by these 700 people from midnight. I will be glad if I am not told anything else because that is the position.
The Garda have made it quite clear that they have not the resources to take up any of this work. They are involved in security and will not be involved in this. Therefore, the position arises that for 24 hours at least all the points of entry into the State will be totally clear for people to bring in whatever they like without documentation. Not only will it cause major problems tomorrow but it will cause major problems for trade, industry and the economy. The Minister recently tried to regulate in an effort to control the amount of goods coming into the country and to change the limits. I agree with the proposals he made then, but that work will be totally negatived from midnight. It is commonly known in this city, in the northern constituencies, in your own constituency, Sir, in Deputy Gallagher's constituency and by all my colleagues that a huge shipment is ready to be organised into the Twenty-six Counties from midnight. We have received enough information on this to keep me here night and day considering what is going to happen, which the Minister will know far better than I through his Department officials.
This strike is mainly about four very minor things. A document No. E105/2/80 dated 5 July 1982 with circular 11/82 covered travelling and subsistence regulations for the members of the Customs and Excise Officers Association. This issue has been going on for two-and-a-half years and last Monday letters surfaced relating to some of the matters raised by the officers. I do not believe that they will want a strike and even at this stage the Minister for Finance in conjunction with the Minister for the Public Service could easily avert this strike.
The matters at stake are very minor. There are two questions of definition, of where a home is for an individual — which I am sure is not too difficult to define — and where an individual's headquarters are. Those matters do not seem to be the reason for tonight's proposed strike. They can be negotiated and agreed quite easily, and I got that assurance from senior members of the association today. The third point is about payments of daily rates for subsistence and temporary transfer which again I do not believe is a reason for the strike. The fourth is the motor mileage rate and I believe that is the reason for the strike. The issue of this strike is fairly simple. It has seemed complicated in latter days, but the point is that a relief officer who is daily at a particular station if moved to go temporarily to another station under 15 miles away, at present will receive half the rate set out in the 1982 document which is half the Civil Service subsistence and travel rate — we are talking about travel rate. If a relief officer goes to work tomorrow morning and is told that he is not in his present location, and has to go to a different location under 15 miles away, he will get half the Civil Service rate. If on the following day he was to get an instruction to go to your house, a Cheann Comhairle, about some matter, he would get the full rate although that house might be only a very short distance from the headquarters. The issue of this strike is that they are demanding the full rate whether they go to your house to check a query or to their base.
Fewer than 20 staff are concerned. It cannot be costly. If it was a matter of cost that might present a strong argument, but the officers some time ago, to put pressure to finalise the decision, decided that they would not use their own transport, they would use taxies. Now when a relief officer is sent from his normal post to another post he gets a taxi instead of the mileage rate. The taxi fare is far dearer. Therefore, far from this being an increase on the Exchequer, the Revenue Commissioners' bills for mileage, probably would be a decrease.
The consequences of tomorrow's strike the Minister knows only too well. It will be used as an occasion for smugglers to bring in large quantities of whatever they wish. Householders perhaps will bring in a certain amount but I am not too sure that the abuses in that are major and they are often exaggerated. The big smugglers, apart from smugglers of drugs, a very serious matter, will have almost a free day. That has been accepted and yesterday the commissioners accepted that customs posts along the Border would be left unmanned. That is extremely serious and it is publicised in the front pages of this morning's newspapers. Therefore, I am not scaremongering. The Garda accept that this is the position. Responsible officers of the Irish Customs and Excise Union accept that that is the position. I talked to a number of their officers today and I know that they would like to see this strike deferred because they realise that it is not in the interest of the State to allow it to go ahead. They have seen the movements today of certain people with trucks, individuals who they know are involved in smuggling in a large way.
I appeal to the Minister who still has five or six hours in which he, his officials, the Minister for the Public Service and the Minister for Labour can act quite easily. I do not think any great matters of principle or great amendments of regulations would be involved. It all comes down to the definition of what official business is and how that is interpreted in the document. While it may be suitable for some official involved in this directly to have to stand his ground, I am sure that the Minister or some of his senior officials at this stage could arbitrate easily and divert quickly a potentially serious strike. I ask the Minister to endeavour in the interest of trade and of the State to avert this strike and the problems that will go on long after tomorrow if it takes place. There is a possibility that it could continue after tomorrow. If that is so, in future when customs officers question people about their possessions they will be told: "We brought that in on 7 December and it was legal". This could have all types of consequences. Now we are asking the Minister to spend these few valuable hours in an attempt to avert this strike. If this matter had been raised on Tuesday we would have asked him to do so then. Now time is running out. This strike would not be difficult to avert as some strikes would be. In the interest of all concerned I ask the Minister for Finance to take action over the next few hours.
I want to take the opportunity to impress on the Minister the disastrous effects, as Deputy Ahern has pointed out, which this pending strike will have. It is to be hoped that the Minister for Finance, or, more appropriately the Minister for the Public Service will take action this evening before it is too late to try to avert this strike. I have tried to raise this matter on a number of occasions this week because, coming from a Border county I am aware — as I am sure the Minister is — of the disastrous consequences of a strike such as this. I do not believe that there will be any winners or losers if this strike takes place. The commitment entered into in 1982 was concluded for the public service generally in relation to travel and subsistence and it included the members of the Irish Customs and Excise Union. Now these people who are temporarily movable, being relief officers in areas, are entitled to and were being paid prior to March 1983 approximately 50 per cent of the rate paid to civil servants. Therefore the Department of the Public Service feel that these people should be paid, but not as much as was agreed in 1982.
The officers decided then to take taxis. While the mileage rate for civil servants was in the region of 40p to 45p these people up to the end of March were being paid in the region of 22p to 24p. Since it is necessary for a taxi to do a double run, the cost to the State is 80p to 90p. Common business sense suggests that we should revert to the system that prevailed. We are talking about only 20 people. The negotiations have been taking place during the past two-and-a-half years. The Customs and Excise Union are not looking for anything in addition to what they are entitled to. At least that is my understanding. However, we cannot allow this strike to begin because it would have a disastrous effect on the Border counties particularly but also on the country as a whole.
The Minister will be searching in the coming weeks for millions of pounds in relation to his budget but by resolving this dispute this evening he can immediately save millions of pounds. The amount of money that would be lost as a result of this proposed strike would be incalculable. The strike would be the first by the customs and excise officers since the foundation of the State. It could result in there being no mobile patrols and no surveillance along the Border. What is particularly of concern is the loss that would be suffered by people in the Border areas. Only today I have spoken to a number of people in this city who are prepared to go to the Six Counties tomorrow.
An answer such as the one issued by the Civil Service yesterday does not make sense because if the strike begins there will be freedom of movement and if gardaí are to be taken from their ordinary duties to deal with the illegal importation of goods from the North, we may suffer in other ways. However, if there should be no repercussions as a result of the strike, one must ask the ridiculous question whether the 700 customs officials are necessary.
We are all aware that such items as video recorders and television sets can be purchased much cheaper in Northern Ireland than is the case in this State. Tomorrow will present an ideal opportunity for anyone to purchase either of these commodities or any other electrical goods because there will be no officials at the frontier posts. In this matter we must distinguish between the frontier posts and the road stations. For up to three years afterwards customs officials could visit any house in the State and ask when certain goods were imported. If the person being questioned were to give the date as 7 December 1984, there would be a great obligation on the Revenue Commissioners to prove that the goods were taken in illegally.
I should like to hear what powers the Garda will have tomorrow to prevent people from bringing in goods illegally. I would be concerned particularly about the importation of drugs especially into my own county. I regret to have to say that I am receiving reports daily from constituents about the availability of drugs in the county. Obviously, these drugs are being imported through the various ports or airports or across the Border. The strike that is due to start tomorrow would afford an opportunity to those involved in drug smuggling to bring drugs into the State.
If the Minister tells us this evening that he is prepared within the next few hours to meet senior officials of the union to discuss the issue with them, he will have nothing to lose but will stand to save millions of pounds. I shall be writing to the Minister later about the electrical trade but suffice it for the moment to say that in the past couple of years about 2,000 jobs have been lost in that sector. If the strike goes ahead there are likely to be another 2,000 lost.
We are confident that the Minister is anxious to ensure that the Border posts are manned tomorrow. There is time left in that respect. We have given the Minister every opportunity in the past few days and we plead with him now to meet those people this evening with a view to coming to some definite arrangement.
I appreciate the concern shown by both Deputies in raising this matter this evening though — I trust the Deputies will understand this — it seems to me that their action represents a very good way of encouraging people to bring in drugs, for example. I say this because the Deputies have emphasised the opportunity that will be presented tomorrow to people of that intent.
News of the strike has been in the newspapers. The Minister is scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Perhaps the Deputies could have been a little less lurid and a little more constructive in expressing their concern.
We are talking about an industrial relations matter. It is not my intention to become involved across the floor of the House in the kind of discussion that ought to take place between the union representatives and the Revenue except to make the point that the 50 per cent mileage rate to which the Deputies have referred does not apply only to the officers in question. It has general application throughout the Civil Service with one area of exception.
As the Deputies have outlined, the Customs and Excise Union have threatened a one day stoppage for tomorrow. They are in dispute with the Revenue Commissioners on the one issue of the motor mileage rates though, as I have pointed out, the rate in question applies generally in the Civil Service in similar circumstances.
As Deputy Ahern mentioned, there were a number of other items in contention. Three of these other areas of disagreement were resolved but it has not proved possible to reach a conclusion on this one point. I regret very much that the union have decided to take industrial action on an issue such as this. The consequences of their action would be that the regular staff would not be available to man customs posts. I do not envisage any significant disruption of the import or export of freight though there may be some minor delays at some posts. Arrangements are being made to ensure that the strike situation cannot be exploited by persons who would decide to break the customs regulations. I do not intend going into the details of those arrangements because such an exercise would be neither wise nor useful at this point. I would not wish to prejudice the effectiveness of such measures. The Garda are fully aware of the situation. I am concerned to ensure that the Garda authorities will have a proper presence.
Is the Minister sure that they are co-operating?
If Deputy Gallagher is now suggesting that the Garda authorities would not co-operate he is making a very serious allegation and he should be ashamed——
The Deputy asked a question.
There are ways of asking questions——
The Minister's definition of co-operation and mine would not be the same.
——that make it a bit more than a question.
If they co-operate as well as the Minister, that will be very little.
There are ways of asking a question that make it a bit more than a question and on reflection the Deputy will regret what he said. It seems to be a matter of some regret that the union have decided to take industrial action on a point such as this. It is always possible for the union to change their minds between now and midnight.
On a point of clarification, what did the Minister mean when he suggested I would regret what I said? He is making a threat.
With the greatest of pleasure. When the Deputy looks back on the inference in that question he may decide that he should not really have said that. I am not making a threat.
You are.
The Deputy may come to realise that it was unwise of him to make that kind of allegation.
The Dáil adjourned at 5.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 11 December 1984.