Before we adjourned the debate I was making the case that the Minister for Justice has been left to carry the can for the failure of the Government's social and economic policies. I said there is a direct link between the high level of unemployment which is growing at an alarming rate and the level of crime. I regret there is nothing in the Supplementary Estimate that will restore public confidence. There is nothing that will allow the people to think their level of protection and security will increase in the months ahead, particularly during the winter which is always a time of great fear for many citizens and particularly old people. We must not forget the tragic events of this time last year when old people in rural areas lived in fear because of the many attacks made on them during the long winter nights. The Minister in the reply should indicate to the House if he proposes to introduce a reorganised plan to provide a new level of protection——
Supplementary Estimates, 1985: Vote 23: Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed)
Limerick East): On a point of order, I have been asked by a series of speakers to reply to certain specific points. There are many people waiting to speak and it appears I will not be able to reply as there is only a little more than an hour left for the debate. We are dealing with two Supplementary Estimates: one is for the Office of the Minister for Justice and the other is for the prisons. There is no Supplementary Estimate on the Garda Vote but most of what Deputy Hyland is discussing are matters relating to the Garda.
With respect to the Minister——
(Limerick East): I do not mind but others wish to speak in the debate and I should like to reply.
I have no intention of depriving the Minister or other speakers of contributing. I spoke for a considerable time before the Adjournment and I will conclude within the next five minutes. We expect the Minister in his reply to inform the House if he has any plans or proposals to help to restore public confidence in our institutions. This is sadly lacking at the moment.
I do not want to go over ground already covered by previous speakers from this side of the House. I should like the Minister to comment on the serious problem of money lending. It always seems to be a case of reacting too late after an event. Whether the Minister accepts it or not, money lending is a serious social problem particularly in urban areas. This matter was highlighted on a television programme and has also been highlighted in reports from credible organisations such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and the credit unions. The only people who can do anything about resolving the problem are Members of this House, through the Minister for Justice and his Department. I do not want this problem to remain unattended.
Illegal money lending will escalate at grave risk to families and marriages if it is not tackled immediately. Wexford town was referred to in the recent TV programme. In Wexford no fewer than 5,000 people are having or have had contact with illegal moneylenders. There are nine moneylenders in Wexford and only three of them can claim to be legal. I had a letter during the week from a Wexford clergyman who, naturally, is concerned about this despicable practice and its effects on the lives of young people and on marriages. It does not take any great imagination to see how friction can occur in families or individuals who fall victims to these appalling arrangements, which are widespread throughout the country. When he is replying, I should like the Minister to tell us what action he has taken since this was brought to his notice. I ask him to do something about it.
We have been reading in the newspapers in the past three weeks of two deaths in prison of young people from drugs. It is terrible to see people in State custody losing their lives because of drugs.
(Limerick East): That is not true.
The Minister will have an opportunity to reply.
Not if the Deputy continues like this. He is not even on the subject of the Estimate.
I ask the Minister to take some positive action. Whatever Deputy Skelly may say, this relates to the Estimate because it deals with the prison system. One young man lost his life while in a prison. I suggest that prisoners who have drug problems should be segregated from other prisoners.
I am glad of the opportunity to speak on the serious problems under the Minister's jurisdiction. I have no difficulty in agreeing with the Estimate because money must be spent if law and order are to be reinstated. The problem is of huge dimensions and it is escalating. In a few years the amount of money we are voting now will seem very small by comparison with the amount that will be needed to maintain law and order. We must be honest and face facts. We are losing the battle despite the valiant efforts of the Minister for Justice whom the Irish nation is lucky to have in that job. On his admission this week, we are losing the battle against crime — the criminals are winning. We have been told that only two out of 84 cases are detected by the Garda Síochána. That is a horrifying insight into the depth of the problem.
I will speak briefly of the prison service and the Garda Síochána. In spite of a temporary personal hiccough in relations with the Garda, I give my wholehearted support to the job they do, very often with great personal danger to themselves, in their efforts to protect society from the hordes of criminals who are threatening to engulf society. I pay tribute to them as a general body, but I should like to draw attention to the lack of proper training in Templemore.
I have been in Templemore and I was impressed with the apparent set-up there: about six months training for a boy who has done the Leaving Certificate and joins the force is not nearly sufficient. After six months he is sent out in the streets of Dublin or some other city. His training is totally inadequate for that job. A youth of 19 or 20 years has not got the experience, the tact or the sensitivity to deal with the necessity to handle people——
I presume the Deputy will make only a passing reference to this.
You presume rightly. I believe that lack of adequate training is a weakness accepted by the Garda. I suggest that no young recruit should be allowed out on his own until he has served two years: he should be accompanied by a senior officer who would be experienced. There is also a need for upgrading training in civility and courtesy to the public. In this respect, gardaí could learn something from the RUC.
Money lending is pertinent to the Estimate. I suggest that rather than the public and the political world having to be told of these problems through television programmes, the Garda should be aware of the activities of moneylenders and should be able to build dossiers on money lending instead of reacting when the magnitude of the problem has been exposed on television. It is a dirty practice and the people most vulnerable to the moneylenders are the weakest in society. Most are social welfare recipients — they are the most vulnerable to the advances of these vultures.
Deputy Hyland suggested that this is a rural problem but that is not the case. It emanates from the city of Dublin where the largest firm engaged in this disgraceful practice have their headquarters. This is a company of apparently respectable business people, many of whom are engaged in the accountancy field. They use deplorable methods in preying on the most vulnerable people. This is a practice that should be stamped out ruthlessly and immediately. The practice is prevalent, too, in the town of Drogheda. I have been aware of very many unfortunate people who became ensnared in this evil practice and were unable to extricate themselves from it. I am confident that the Minister will act in this area with his usual speed.
On the question of the expenditure of £50 million on our prisons, I am a believer in the old fashioned theory that prison should be a penitentiary and not a rest home or a grade three hotel. We should spend less on such facilities as snooker tables, videos, colour televisions and sauna baths for our prisoners.
And gaming machines, too.
When prisoners riot and destroy these facilities they should be left among the debris or confined to their quarters but the facilities should not be replaced. The only replacement should be by way of water hoses because these people should be treated as outcasts from society. If they cannot behave themselves in jail what chance is there of their behaving themselves outside? We should consider the reintroduction of hard labour and of flogging because the measures we are taking are inadequate. We are fighting a losing battle and the main reason for this is the absence of a deterrent.
Because there is no deterrent, increasing numbers are being encouraged to break the law and to commit criminal acts which have terrifying consequences for the victims and for the people generally. This is evidenced by the recent despicable murders that have been perpetrated. Therefore, instead of providing for prisoners the kind of facilities to which I have referred, the Government should think in terms of providing leisure centres in certain areas as a means of combatting crime. The British Government, in the interests of reducing subversive activity in Belfast, provided five leisure centres in that city. These are on a par with anything to be found elsewhere in Europe and the experiment has been highly successful. The centres provide an area of recreation and relaxation for many young people who otherwise would be sucked into the maelstrom of crime and violence.
I realise that my views are considered old fashioned and that they may be sniggered at by the liberals in our society. But the liberals and the apologists for crime are in many ways responsible for the growth in crime. I suggest to the Minister that, despite his own views as published recently on the question of capital punishment, in America where the liberals had their say for a long time, there is now an acceptance of the reality of reintroducing capital punishment. If the Minister were to conduct a referendum on this question, I submit that by a large majority the people would vote for the reintroduction of capital punishment here. The Government have a duty to protect society but society is disintegrating. I accept that capital punishment is not a complete deterrent but neither is jail a total deterrent. There is no complete deterrent for anything in life but in many cases capital punishment would provide the deterrent that is needed.
I shall conclude my remarks within about ten minutes so as to allow Deputy Skelly to contribute.
Deputy Skelly, Deputy Bell and, if possible the Minister would be anxious to contribute before 5 p.m. The Minister has been asked a number of questions, and I am sure he is most anxious to answer them so I appeal to all concerned for co-operation.
I am willing to curtail my contribution to allow the Minister in if the other Deputies would co-operate in the same way.
There are only 33 minutes remaining.
If we co-operate with each other, perhaps the Minister will be called on at 4.50 p.m.
Ten minutes would probably be sufficient for the Minister.
Deputy McGahon's speech must reflect the pain felt in the community by reason of the unacceptable level of crime. I have here a petition which I received yesterday from the residents of 52 houses in the South Circular Road area. This number of houses represents only a small portion of that area but the petition is a reflection of the feelings of the community generally. It is a microcosm of the whole area of Dublin, north and south. The authors of the petition must speak for every resident in Dublin. The petition is signed by all 52 householders and reads as follows:
We, the undersigned, all residents of the South Circular Road area at the addresses as set out hereunder petition you to use your influence with the Department of Justice and the Garda authorities to ensure that a more efficient and uniform system of policing of this area of the South Circular Road is implemented immediately.
Break-ins and general interference with property are now an everyday occurrence, and in particular, there are a number of old people living in the area with whose safety we are gravely concerned. While we are fully conscious of the present difficulties being experienced by the authorities in the law enforcement situation we submit and petition accordingly that, the safety of ordinary citizens in their homes and their constitutional right to the peace and security guaranteed by the State are given a significantly higher priority in local policing arrangements than that which they are apparently being accorded at present.
We trust that in the making of this petition it will be recognised that we demand an improvement in the crime situation which is threatening to become worse. And we hope that positive steps will be taken towards the furtherance of that end and to ensure that the rule of law becomes an actual fact rather than what it is now — an empty formula.
These must be the sentiments not only of the people of Dublin but of the people of every town in the country. In the seventies I recall speaking out here in favour of the Loughan House concept and being abused for my views. I said then that the hooligans of today would be the gunmen of tomorrow.
This week I got a reply from the Minister to my question about armed robberies. In 1984 there were 440 armed robberies and in the first nine months of this year there were 457 armed robberies. A Minister for Justice today has the most arduous job in the Cabinet. People find it difficult to understand when they hear about prisoners wrecking their television sets and videos and about the items being replaced. It is incomprehensible to people that prisoners have such luxuries because the reason many of them are in prison is that they have deprived others of those luxuries. It is understandable that prisoners with nothing to do can become bored and dangerous and that it is in the interests of prison officers and everybody else that the prisoners are kept happy. However, perhaps it is time as Deputy McGahon said, to review whether or not certain forms of work practices should be extended. Prison should be a deterrent and we should drop this idea of rehabilitation. The Minister knows that these people would knife one in a church, given the opportunity, and many of them are destined for a life of crime.
Deputy McGahon referred to liberals and it reminded me of a book which was sent to me some years ago entitled "If Liberals had feathers, Gee What a Hunter I would Be". Recently there has been some improvement in the joyriding situation but the problem is still serious. Gardaí are still having their cars rammed. When I see a motor cycle garda out at night, I salute him as a brave man. For that man's wife or mother it must be a terrible ordeal knowing that her husband or son is out on that motor cycle at the mercy of criminals who show no quarter, who are prepared to kill. When I heard about the riot in Spike Island my attitude was — leave them there. I would have given them 25 suits of underwear between 50 of them and I would have told them to use their excess energy fighting for them. I would create work schemes for these people so that they would be too tired for joyriding at the end of the day. The assistant city manager of the housing department of Dublin Corporation said that if the Government gave him the dole money he would not have difficulty in creating work for these people. If many of these young people who find themselves in trouble with the law had to do a good hard day's work they might be too tired to steal cars and go joyriding.
Senior Garda officers have stated that there are about 120 ringleaders in the city and I would be the first to vote powers to the Minister in this House to round them up.
(Limerick East): About 500 of them were put into jail in the first six months of this year.
Perhaps the jails are not keeping them long enough.
(Limerick East): We are keeping them as long as the courts put them in. Nobody is getting out prematurely from a sentence given for joyriding.
Some of the court decisions must have upset the Minister. We want to see tougher sentences and if certain justices are not giving tough sentences they should be moved somewhere else to deal with other types of cases. When will we get a court set up with two judges dealing with drugs cases? We should have two tough men who show no quarter to the drug pushers. The concerned parents' assocation is a product of this situation. If the State cannot protect the citizens they will take the law into their own hands and the subversive organisations will take a hold. The people will vote for them in return for protection.
There are a number of questions down for next week to deal with the money lending problem. I was delighted to see that credit was given to my father who prepared a Private Members' Bill which was later taken over by the first Fianna Fáil Government in 1933 in relation to controlling the interest that these people could charge. When the Minister replies to my questions next week I would like to know if he is going to update that legislation.
I would ask Deputy Daly and Deputy Skelly to conclude by 4.50 p.m. to allow the Minister in.
I was considering whether to concede my time altogether to allow the Minister to reply, because the debate has been messed up so much by the Private Notice Question and by other Members wandering all over the place.
In relation to the Supplementary Estimate I would point out in the area of legal aid that we are not getting value for money from the legal profession. The Minister's and the Department's attention should be drawn to this area. Neither are we getting good professional services. As most people who depend on free legal aid are the deprived sections, they should get a very keen rate and a very good service. The deprived sections get the worst kind of service from the most junior lawyers who often do not see their clients until they are actually in court.
The amount paid to the legal profession is scandalous. The medical profession put them to shame as they can provide the most highly qualified people to give a service anywhere at all hours for a modest outlay. The legal profession do not do that. During the debate on the Criminal Justice Bill last year, when fees were discussed, an invitation was issued to the legal profession to provide a reasonably costed service and there was no response. We need more centres throughout the city of Dublin in particular and better information for the public. I approve of this Estimate but we could get much better value for money and possibly extend the service.
In relation to the consciousness of the legal profession, I received a letter from the President of the Law Society, Mr. Collins, on 29 March this year seeking my support in which he said that as a profession they were continually trying to improve the services to the public and he said that one cause of complaint against solicitors is delay. I wrote back to him and said I was delighted to see that he was trying to improve the service and that he recognised the problem of delay. I told him that his placing of the blame on everyone else was unbalanced because he failed to accept responsibility for delays in the legal profession. I told him there was gross incompetence, inefficiency and protectionism in his profession and that there was room for suspecting that peculiar knowledge is used extensively for the enrichment of the members of the legal profession and that there was also a dreadful laxity on entry into practise by members who are woefully inexperienced and that many of the most outrageous mistakes cannot be checked until the estates are wrapped up.
I said, furthermore:
Moneys have been held for extraordinary lengths of time by solicitors when they should have been passed over to the client. Members of the public cannot even find out whether their case is dealt with between calls or visits to the solicitor. You and I know that, in the majority of cases, they are not being dealt with.
I gave him an example of foreign lawyers who in order to save a £10 million deal for business for this country, had to intervene to speed up the legal process. Finally I said to him that one of the stinking things about the legal profession, solicitors, is the way they cover up for each other, the rogues being protected by the hard working, decent members. I then went on to say to him that he could see readily, of course, advantage being taken of the general honourable image of the profession that image being put under strain by irregularities which are often cloaked over by his society, that is the Law Society, and that the Law Society should do themselves a favour and come clean.
Interestingly, a newly formed union, the Irish Solicitors' Union also wrote to me, independently, saying they were most dissatisfied with our present legal system, that they wanted massive increases and support. I wrote back to them — Susan Bowler-Geraghty was the person who had written to me — saying I was delighted to note that they wanted a fair and just legal system. I also asked them the following question, "Will you also be willing to do that even if it means curtailing some of the excesses of your profession?" I said I found her letter heartening in that she recognised the shortcomings. I said I would be quite willing to enter into debate with some of their union, that I was sure I could inveigle some Members here to participate, when we could both work for real change to bring about a fair and just legal system. I said she had taken the first important step on behalf of her union to bring about progress in an area which is a cause for shame.
I have not received any reply or invitations by way of a follow-up to that, because all that the legal profession want is more money. When one takes up a cause in this House one risks putting oneself in danger by way of one's reputation or character because people tend to take it personally. They forget why we were elected, that we have responsibilities to carry out. I think all of us try to carry them out in an honourable way.
I have witnessed the experience of Deputy Allen who has been disgracefully treated by that profession in that it must be remembered he has been endeavouring to carry out his duty as a Member of Parliament elected by the people. I have received letters from people around the country asking me to support him. I have enough causes on my plate. I did not want to interfere in what he was endeavouring to do. I should like to put on the record of the House that I fully support the stance he has taken over the last few years. We would be doing everybody a great service if we could iron out the irregularities in that profession which is enlitist, a very small group, tending to comprise family members, sons and daughters who progress in it, when all the time the sufferer is John Citizen, the poor unfortunate public. I do not want to dwell on this.
I shall omit reference to prisons which I regret — because of the time factor — having to do. But in regard to commissions and special inquiries, we should strive for improvement. As far as the Kerry Babies Tribunal is concerned we did not get value for money. I do not think the mandate this House gave that tribunal was carried out. It is unfortunate that we were not allowed to debate its findings in the House although such debate was called for by Members, leaving a very big question mark over what we are doing here. I wish the adversarial system would be changed to an inquisitorial system. The tribunals we set up tend to encourage the gravy train system which we all understand. These high fees of the legal profession are just not warranted. Nobody else gets guaranteed money as they do. Nobody gets guaranteed money whether they win or lose. These tribunals are a particular scandal in that often, for a month or two, a solicitor or barrister may not even be needed. Yet he receives his daily fee which is very high. This is not likely to be said in the House by anybody else but I think there should be some kind of an average worked out because it is a rip-off profession and it should be tackled. We can do so by streamlining it, by watching costs and insisting that its members conform to certain standards. If the House is prepared to vote moneys like these for the establishment of such tribunals, then we should ensure that we get value for those moneys.
There is one suggestion I might make — perhaps I should do so privately in order to conserve time and give Deputy Bell five minutes — and here I refer to the Barra O'Briain report, paragraph 60 of which reads:
On the first occasion an accused appears in the District Court, the Prosecution should be required by the District Justice to say whether any statement or confession made by the accused will be relied upon. If the answer is in the affirmative the Justice should enquire of the accused whether or not such confession or statement was made freely. If the answer is that the confession or statement was not made freely, the accused should be permitted, but not compelled, to elaborate, particularly with regard to any alleged ill-treatment. The proceedings in the District Court should be duly recorded, and the record (including the original of any statement) should later be available to the trial Court. We so recommend.
That would have saved us many problems with regard to that tribunal. Perhaps I will be given an opportunity on another occasion to elaborate further.
I fully support the Supplementary Estimate brought forward by the Minister and congratulate him on doing a very good job in very difficult circumstances. Likewise we should pledge our support to the Garda Síochána and prison officers who undertake a very difficult task in very difficult times. Much more could be achieved by the Garda if they received the full support of the Oireachtas and the general public. Likewise, prison officers have a difficult task. I was involved with one wing of the Defence Forces and I know the difficulties people encounter daily in relation to the maintenance of law and order.
In regard to the Garda Síochána Complaints Bill I would very strongly urge the Minister to sit down with the representative bodies in an effort to work out an agreed formula.
I would remind the Deputy that we do not refer to impending legislation.
It is important that the Garda should have full confidence, not only in the management of the force itself, but in the parliamentary system. It should be clearly seen that we, as legislators, are doing everything within our power to safeguard their interests. The disciplinary code within the force has operated quite well. I have been looking at the figures produced in the House and it appears to me that more gardaí have been disciplined over the period referred to than people in any other walk of life. The evidence is clear that they can carry out this task quite well within their own regulations. Before that Bill comes before the House I would appeal to the Minister to sit down with the Garda Síochána in order to work out a more acceptable formula for dealing with complaints against members of the Garda. Otherwise we shall spend more time dealing with complaints against members of the Garda than we shall with criminals. Living, as I do, in a Border constituency I have observed the enormous increase in serious and subversive crime.
Limerick East): I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for arranging to allow me in and I thank everybody who contributed. While people had some critical things to say, everybody supported the Estimate and I appreciate that support.
A number of people mentioned recent murders which have frightened some people and it is worth putting the matter in context. In 1980 there were 20 murders, in 1981 there were 24, in 1982 there were 24, in 1983 there were 26, in 1984 there were 23 and in 1985 to date 23 with the DPP not having yet made decisions on what he will charge in another four cases. Therefore, even though we had recent horrific murders, there is no increase over the past five years.
I thank Deputy Haughey for his contribution and particularly for the kind words he said about the Attorney General in connection with the Stardust scheme. I endorse what he said about the Attorney General because it is the Attorney General's scheme more than anybody else's and the deserves great credit for it. Deputy Haughey made one point about disclosing the amount of awards. A condition of the scheme which a claimant undertakes is not to disclose the amount of any award unless he has accepted the award. Once he has accepted the award there is nothing to prevent a person from disclosing the amount of the award.
Deputy Liam Cosgrave asked for information on community services. The scheme was brought into operation on 5 December 1984. In the first year 990 offenders were referred for reports on their suitability for community service. So far over 500 orders have been made. It is written into the legislation that these can be imposed only instead of a prison sentence. The average number of hours ordered has been 80. The cost of a community service order is about £21 a week compared to over £400 a week for imprisionment. Recently I saw some schemes in Dublin which are working very well. The scheme is very good and I hope it expands further.
Deputy Woods argued about what he described as my confrontation on policy with the Prison Officers Association. I refer the House to the Whitaker Report pages 307-310 where details are given of 44 episodes of industrial action which took place in the prisons in the years 1981-83. There has been no instance of industrial action since the resolution of the November 1983 dispute in Mountjoy, and that fact speaks for itself. Since the Mountjoy incident in 1983 not as much as five minutes have been lost in any prison through industrial action. In the two years prior to that 44 industrial episodes were recorded.
I do not want confrontation with the POA. I want good relations with them.
There is no doubt who is supposed to be running the prisons, and I am prepared to negotiate with the POA on any occasion in the normal atmosphere of trade unions with no threats on their side and certainly no confrontation on my side. As I said in my introductory remarks, they are very dedicated prison officers who work in difficult circumstances and we should show our appreciation of them.
Deputy Woods asked about the extra resources on the Border in patrols, overtime and all that activity which began in September and where the money was coming from. The money is provided out of savings elsewhere in the Vote, principally out of the provisions for superannuation which were over-estimated last year. Therefore, we did not have to come in with a Supplementary Estimate on that side even though significant amounts of money were spent. For example, the 1985 Estimate was £10.7 million and the projected outturn is £12.5 million. There has been extra expenditure on overtime. It is worth noting that the December figures always go into the following year. Once you reach 3 or 4 December you go into 1986, so what we do before Christmas will not be shown in the 1985 Estimate.
Very little structural damage was done to the prison on Spike Island. The damage done was to wooden floors and ceilings which were due to be replaced anyway and we were within about six weeks of starting the replacement work. That is why I say it is very difficult to put a cost on it. The prison fulfilled the objective for which it was opened at the time.
The question of moneylending is disturbing and many Deputies have referred to it. A number of oral questions are down to me which I will be answering when next I answer oral questions, so I do not think I should get into detail and pre-empt Deputies in their legitimate rights. The Garda have been asked to report on the content of the television programme to which Deputies referred and the Garda in Cork are investigating certain items. Deputy Hyland talked about illegal moneylending in Wexford.
The prosecution of offences is not a matter for the Minister for Justice. It is a matter for the Garda and the DPP I have said previously that Deputies should complain to the Garda so that they can get their files correct and put the matter up to the DPP and let the law take its course.
Deputy Allen talked about the untouchables. As long as I am Minister for Justice there are no untouchables in this country. If people break the law they will be dealt with by the Garda and it is for the DPP to decide whether prosecutions will be taken.
Deputy Allen and other Deputies asked about criminal legal aid. I have no discretion here. There is a Supreme Court decision which says that the courts can give criminal legal aid and we must provide it. I have no discretion either as to how long a case will run or about the nature of the case. Some of the cases are very expensive indeed. We seem to get good value for money; certainly it seems to be cost effective in comparison with other jurisdictions. The net cost has increased greatly. In 1980 it was £767,000 approximately and in 1985 it is £1.8 million approximately. These are net figures with the VAT taken off so there is no conflict here with what I said earlier. It is a great deal of money and we must examine the matter very carefully to make sure that the interests of justice, the community and the taxpayer are being served.
Regarding general crime, the trend is improving. For example, in the Dublin metropolitan area in 1980 crime went up by 15.5 per cent, in 1981 by 26.5 per cent, in 1982 by 9.3 per cent and in 1983 by 4.9 per cent. In 1984 it went down by 4.8 per cent and in 1985 it was going down again. All around the country in the same years it went up by 13.6 per cent. It went up by 22.8 per cent in 1981, by 9.2 per cent in 1982, by 4.9 per cent in 1983 and down by 2.6 per cent in 1984 and again it is showing a minus down this year. The reduction there is quite big. I suggest also that there was an increase in the number of crimes being reported. People often claim that these are not full statistics because all crime is not being reported, but insurance companies now will not consider a claim for burglary unless you can say on your form that the Garda have been informed. Therefore, you can be sure now that not only are 100 per cent of burglaries being notified to the Garda but something around 103, 104 or even 110 per cent of burglaries are being notified to the Garda Síochána. There is no difference between the real statistic and the supposed statistic.
Deputy Hyland asked about the transport of cash. We have worked on that and we have arrangements now which are different from previous arrangements, but I do not think I should give out detailed information like that. I accept what the Deputy said.
The schemes which were put into effect last year to prevent attacks on old people were maintained, increased, reactivated and strengthened, starting about September of this year and progressed as the nights became longer. They seem to be effective because the incidence of attacks has gone down.
Is that scheme in operation?
(Limerick East): Yes, in the west and has been for a number of months past. We will pay extra attention to it over Christmas. The Deputy is right. We should give priority to this.
I thank all Deputies. I am sorry I had not more time to reply in more detail but I thank everybody who contributed. I am sure we will have other occasions to take up the discussion.