asked the Taoiseach if the Government intend to undertake any investigations into reports that the Minister of State at the Department of Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism, Deputy Eddie Collins, involved himself directly in negotiations about the possible takeover of a firm in which he is a shareholder by another firm in the meat industry, at a time while holding office and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Meat Firm Negotiations.
2.
I presume the reports to which the Deputy refers concern an article published in a recent edition of an Irish periodical.
At the outset I would like to confirm that the underlying principle in relation to business interests of members of the Government and Ministers of State is that no Minister or Minister of State may engage in any activities that could reasonably be regarded as interfering, or being incompatible, with the full and proper discharge of the duties of office. All Ministers and Ministers of State are aware of and fully subscribe to that principle.
When appointed Minister of State in 1982, Deputy Collins resigned all of his company directorships as well as resigning from the local authorities and subsidiary bodies of which he was then a member. In so doing he disassociated himself from the day-to-day operations of the companies in which he and his family have a financial involvement.
I am satisfied that there was no impropriety on the part of Deputy Collins, in checking, as a major shareholder in a family holding company, the implications of the possible sale of his family's holdings in these companies. This did not impinge on his responsibilities as Minister of State at the Departments of Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism, or Energy and no conflict of interest issue arose.
The Taoiseach is correct in that my question arises from an article in the New Hibernia. Did the Minister meet representatives of the Halal Company and were these meetings to discuss the terms of a takeover of his family firm? Was the Minister negotiating on those occasions or simply checking on an already agreed package?
My understanding is that the Minister had meetings with Halal in his capacity as a major shareholder to examine the implications of any offers for the company. That seems to be an entirely appropriate course of action and is not incompatible with the normal procedure under which Ministers or Ministers of State resign from the directorships and disassociate themselves from the day-to-day running of companies. The question of the sale of a company is a major issue in which as a shareholder such a person would be legitimately concerned and it would be appropriate to hold meetings to establish to his own satisfaction the likely consequences for him and his family of any proposed action.
Is the Taoiseach satisfied that there was not a gross error of judgment involved in this instance in that it is clearly indicated by the people whom the Minister met that the Minister, Deputy Collins, was negotiating with them regarding the purchase of his family's company? Will the Taoiseach accept that it would have been much more appropriate, given the Minister's position in Government which involves him in a Department which grant-aids industry and so forth, for him to engage a negotiator on his behalf, so as not to be directly involved?
The article to which the Deputy referred does not conform to the statement he has just made. What is said in the article is that the negotiators were Mr. Denis Fortune, chief executive of Collins Brothers, and Mr. Jack Khalid of Halal with the future of the Collins Brothers's subsidiary company, and bacon and lamb company, Leinster Limited Resources, included in the discussions. Subsequently the Minister had discussions to satisfy humself as to the implications for the shareholders but the article states that negotiations were carried on between those two people, the negotiator in the company in which the Minister has shares, being the chief executive of that company.
It has been represented to me that one of the two people involved in these meetings, Mr. Rafique and Mr. Jackie Khalid, has a clear recollection of the Minister indicating that he wanted to make a lot of money fast and suggested that his company and Halal would work together to maximise profits and effectively operate a cartel.
If Deputy De Rossa wants to make a serious charge against a Member of the House or against a Minister, he should put down a substantive motion, he cannot come in by way of——
(Interruptions.)
This may be left to the Chair. I am ruling the Deputy out of order if he is making charges of that nature against a Member of the House without putting down a motion.
I am making the point that the question of a Minister of State being involved——
You are making a serious charge.
——directly in negotiations in relation to a company he owns, is improper.
Yes, but the Deputy went on and made another charge with a very vicious innuendo.
Hear, hear.
I was about to say to the Taoiseach that I can make this statement available to him if he so wishes.
If the Deputy wants to go on on that line he should put down a motion.
I regret that perhaps I have not approached this in a manner that the rules of the House permit, but the Taoiseach has a responsibility to ensure that the other rules of the House are complied with and that the question of a serious error of judgment at least has——
The Deputy will have to confine himself to questions. The Deputy is now making a statement and this is not an appropriate time for that.
Will the Taoiseach follow that up?
I am satisfied that the Minister of State behaved properly in this regard, that negotiations were carried on as stated and he was perfectly in order, as a major shareholder in the holding company in seeking to satisfy himself as to the consequences and effect of the deal for himself and his family. Deputy De Rossa's statements and innuendoes are based on an alleged statement by somebody in one company and will not carry very much weight.
Question No. 3.
Could I just make the point——
No. The Deputy may ask a question.
I am attempting to be as fair as possible in relation to this matter. It is reasonable for a Deputy to put questions in the House in relation to a serious matter such as how a Minister carries out his function.
Yes, but he may not make serious charges, as the Deputy did. Question No. 3.