asked the Taoiseach if he will give statistics of the number of people emigrating from Ireland to the US, Britain and Europe for each year from 1980 to date.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Emigration Statistics.
4.
(Dún Laoghaire): Information of the type requested by the Deputy is not available. In the absence of comprehensive documentary or other administrative procedures relating to the movements of persons into and out of the State, there is no way of determining the actual number of inward and outward migrants in any period or the destination of those emigrating. The only reliable estimates of migration flows are those for net migration (i.e. the difference between the inward and outward flows) between successive censuses of population. The estimates for these periods are obtained by relating the intercensal population changes to data for births and deaths in the same period. The preliminary results of the 1986 census of population, to be taken in April, will be available next autumn. It will then be possible to obtain a firm estimate of net migration for the 1981-86 intercensal period.
That is cold comfort for the several hundred people who will leave the country this week. Does the Taoiseach agree that he has a vested interest in not wanting to inform himself of the real level of emigration at present and over the past three years because it has provided him with the most significant escape hatch from the ever-increasing rise in the unemployment register?
(Dún Laoghaire): I reject the allegation——
I addressed my question to the Taoiseach and it is a matter for him.
Would the Deputy resume his seat for the moment? I have considered this matter at some length because this is the third occasion on which the Deputy sought to approach the question in this way. As is clear from the text, the question is purely a statistical one and relates to the Central Statistics Office and not to policy as drafted. The Minister of State, Deputy Seán Barrett, is responsible for questions relating to the Central Statistics Office; he has dealt with the question and is apparently prepared to answer further supplementaries. I understand that the responsibility for the Central Statistics Office falls on the Minister consequent on a statutory order made.
I accept that but 30,000 people who left the country in 1984 are more than simply statistics, although the Government do not seem to think so. This is the fourth question which I have put down on this subject and the Taoiseach sidestepped the last three by referring them to the Minister for Foreign Affairs.
If Deputy Fahey refers to the previous questions he put down and compares them with this one, he will see that they are very different and framed in a different way.
(Dún Laoghaire): There is no evidence to show that 40,000 people emigrated last year.
I mentioned a figure of 30,000.
I cannot have two Deputies standing at the same time.
(Dún Laoghaire): I should like to reply to the supplementary. The provisional mid-April 1985 population estimate is 3.552 million which is 109,000 above the 1981 census figure of 3.443 million. The natural increase in the population during the same period was 141,000. Thus, in the four years from April 1981 to April 1985, it is estimated that 32,000 people emigrated which is an average of 8,000 per year. They are the only relevant facts.
(Interruptions.)
(Dún Laoghaire): In relation to the United States, from information received from the Department of Foreign Affairs, permanent visas issued in 1985 amounted to 690; in 1984, 555; in 1983, 491; in 1982, 522; in 1981, 534; and in 1980, 579. In regard to non-emigrant visas, in 1982 46,604 were issued; in 1983, 40,613; in 1984, 40,208; and in 1985, 49,426. There is no other concrete information available, although Deputy Fahey has been quoting a figure of 40,000——
The figure I mentioned was 30,000.
(Dún Laoghaire): I do not know where the Deputy's information is coming from.
It is hard to credit that a Minister could come out with such balderdash in the House——
Please do not make a speech.
It is not acceptable that a Minister could give such irrelevant data when everybody knows——
This is not in order. The Deputy will find another platform and another opportunity to make a speech about this when it will be in order.
I am not making a speech, I am simply pointing out that the Minister was reciting balderdash. If he comes to Shannon Airport tomorrow he can say goodbye to the 20 people who will be leaving for the United States. It is the same every day, people are going on holiday visas but intend to work there.
(Dún Laoghaire): The figure which the Deputy is giving now is different from the one he gave earlier.
That is to the United States alone. Is the Taoiseach aware of the research, on which my figures are based, carried out by the Irish Hierarchy, the United American-Irish Emigration Committee and several Irish committees in London, who compiled information and have come up with an estimated figure of 30,000 young people leaving Ireland in forced emigration in 1984? In view of the fact that to date he has chosen to ignore the statistics, would he now set up a monitoring service at the eight major air and seaports used by young people leaving the country so that we can get accurate, up-to-date information on the numbers leaving, why they are leaving, where they are coming from and their educational standards, so that the Taoiseach can inform himself of the true level of emigration——
That is a very long question. The Deputy should conclude.
If he came to Lettermore he would find that half the football team are now in England or in the United States, which is clear from a photograph which appeared recently in The Sunday Press——
The Deputy is making a speech.
(Dún Laoghaire): The only accurate information in relation to these matters will be supplied when the census of population——
The Minister does not want accurate information.
(Dún Laoghaire): Do not talk nonsense, I have as much interest in young people as the Deputy has.
(Interruptions.)
Do not be facetious.
(Dún Laoghaire): The information supplied to the Central Statistics Office in relation to centres in Britain is that the number of Irish emigrants contacting Irish centres and societies is quite small and do not provide an adequate basis for measuring emigration to that country. I should also like to point out that statistics relating to international migration are generally derived from records based on administrative controls and procedures governing the movements of persons across national boundaries. No such administrative controls which could provide a measure on emigration, particularly between this country and Great Britain to which the bulk of emigration takes place, apply in Ireland.
Could the Government set up a monitoring service?
Does the Taoiseach acknowledge that the matter which Deputy Fahey raises is one of very deep emotional concern to everyone? Would he further acknowledge that, because of the great significance of these figures from the point of view of economic and social planning and the administration of the Government generally, there does exist in his Department and elsewhere in the public service a very good, reliable estimate of what emigration from this country was in 1984 and 1985? Will he avail of some way of disclosing that information to the House and the country because we all know that his economic advisers and the planners throughout the public service have very good, reliable calculations of these figures. For Heaven's sake, stop keeping them under wraps and let the country and the House know what they are.
(Dún Laoghaire): The best information available from all sources is that for the period April 1981 to April 1985, it is estimated that there was net migration of 32,000, an average of 8,000 per year.
That is wrong.
(Dún Laoghaire): That is best information available from all sources and Deputy Haughey is aware of how these checks are carried out from his period as Taoiseach.
May I——
A short question, Deputy.
The Minister gave us a figure of temporary visas of the order of 49,000 in 1985. Has any attempt been made by the Central Statistics Office to break down that figure and to ascertain the number of people who used those temporary visas to stay permanently in the country of destination and who are working illegally there? As the Minister is aware, this is happening in many cases in the United States at present.
(Dún Laoghaire): The Deputy's question should be put to the United States Embassy, not my Department, the Central Statistics Office or the Department of Foreign Affairs.
That is a cop-out.
(Dún Laoghaire): In 1982 the number of non-immigrant visas issued was 46,000. There has been no radical increase from 46,000 to 49,000.
How real are they?
(Dún Laoghaire): Will the Deputy believe anything?
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Ray Burke may ask the last question.
In his contribution to the Dublin in Crisis Conference last Sunday, the Taoiseach referred to a study which had been carried out by the Eastern Regional Development Organisation and asked, indirectly, that the organisation take back the study on the basis that the statistics used were incorrect.
A question, please.
What statistics was the Taoiseach using which are not available to us and how are they different from the information we have been given?
(Dún Laoghaire): I am not getting into that subject because it does not have anything to do with the question on the Order Paper. We are holding a census in 1986 and when those figures are available, we will have accurate information.
I am calling the next question.
May I ask a final question?
Yes, if I get an assurance that it is the final question and not a speech.
In view of the recent passing of the Simpson Bill in the United States, and amendments to that Bill by several Irish-American politicians, giving an amnesty to young Irish people in the United States and providing a quota of temporary work visas, would the Taoiseach negotiate — he has already refused to do so — with the American authorities in support of those efforts by Irish-American politicians?
The Deputy was to ask a short question.
I have seen the Taoiseach in a sorry state many times before but never have I seen him in such a sorry state as he is in today, sitting in silence during this debate——
I am calling Question No. 5.
(Interruptions.)