Vol. 393 No. 3
asked the Minister for Education if, in view of her reply to Parliamentary Question No. 191 of 9 May 1989 which disclosed that the pupil-teacher ratio at primary and post-primary level in this country was one of the highest in Europe, she will indicate the plans she has for the reduction of the ratio; when it is expected that Ireland will reach the average figure of the other EC countries; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
127.
asked the Minister for Education the arrangements, if any, which she has made with a view to revising the teacher-pupil ratio from 1991 onwards to coincide with the fall in school numbers as indicated in the current population trends.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 12 and 127 together.
In accordance with the agreement reached by the Government with the INTO in negotiations under the Programme for National Recovery, the enrolment figures for appointment and retention of teachers in primary schools will be reduced by one unit at each level of the enrolment schedule with effect from 1 September 1990.
The Programme for Government provides that a continuing review of the pupil-teacher ratio at primary and post-primary levels will take place in consultation with the central review committee with regard to the feasibility of a further reduction under a new Programme for National Recovery.
I should add that I have specifically required the Primary Education Review Body to deal with the question of demographic trends and their implications in preparing their report.
The Minister's reply is most unsatisfactory. Would the Minister agree that the reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio is causing teaching difficulties as well as enormous disciplinary problems in certain schools in the Dublin area and in some schools that I know of in rural areas? Would the Minister agree that the increase in the pupil-teacher ratio at post-primary level, particularly in vocational schools, is causing enormous difficulty for practical subject training? Has the Minister addressed that question in conjunction with the Programme for National Development?
I agree with Deputy Mac Giolla that addressing the pupil-teacher ratio is an overriding consideration within the Department of Education and with the Government in general. Under the Programme for National Recovery we have already made arrangements, as I outlined in my earlier reply, and under the central review committee arrangements are in place with all the teacher unions whereby these issues can be addressed in a progressive way. I hope that talks which are due to commence again in the spring will prove satisfactory.
Surely the Minister recognises that this is not a matter between the Minister and the teacher unions and that the parents and pupils are involved. Why is the Minister not addressing them on the question?
First, I must put on record that the teachers' unions are not just concerned about themselves, but are also concerned about the pupils in their care. When they come to meet me or the Government, they constantly speak of the issues concerning pupils. I constantly meet Deputy Mac Giolla with members of the national parents council at primary and post-primary level. I also meet with the management bodies of primary schools, and of the vocational sector and the voluntary secondary sector. I meet regularly with the various bodies concerned with education. I am of the opinion, as is everybody, that the issue of the pupil-teacher ratio is going to be tackled and we have already started on that.
I now call Deputy Brian O'Shea, he has tabled a question on the subject and he is present in the House.
In the context of the improved teacher-pupil ratio, as we have 10,000 fewer pupils starting national school this year, has the Minister any plans to make provision for emotionally disturbed children, who are different from remedial pupils and are causing a great many problems in our schools?
The Deputy has raised a very relevant issue. Apart from the allocation of extra teachers to what are termed disadvantaged schools and extra remedial teachers there remains the need to meet the problems of the children about whom the Deputy speaks. I have given the go-ahead to the pilot project for the primary school psychological service. This need should have been addressed many years ago. Be that as it may, we are making a start now. The psychological society have advised that what they would like to see is two pilot projects running for three years, with proper monitoring and evaluation. We would hope at the end of that stage gradually to extend the service. The areas chosen for the pilot project are west County Dublin, embracing a large area, and also a rural-urban area further down the country.
Somewhere in the midlands?
It is not the midlands, Deputy Bruton, for all your smartness. I wish it was, but it is not.
Is the Minister aware that at present teachers feel abandoned by the Department of Education in matters of discipline as they do not seem to have any clear guidelines under which to operate? I heartily agree with the question which Deputy Mac Giolla tabled on the matter.
Is the Minister aware that the reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio introduced by her on a discriminatory basis against vocational schools has caused particular difficulties in introducing new subjects? Because of the operation of the last in first out principle, a school that gets a new subject teacher, is likely to lose him or her if there is any reduction in numbers at the school.
The question of circulars on the code of discipline and the directions issuing from that was tabled as a priority question but it was not reached because of the extensive supplementary questions on the three previous questions. The pupil-teacher ratio in vocational and community-comprehensive schools is to be reviewed in the light of the Government's commitment under the Programme for National Recovery. I would not accept the assertion that the introduction of a subject is militated against because of the present staff structures. Most schools are innovative and have made great strides in the introduction of new subjects.
That is not so.
There are a number of Deputies offering. Clearly I cannot call you all. We have dwelt at length on this question and I should like to deal with other questions. If the four Deputies offering are very brief I will call them.
(Dún Laoghaire): Would the Minister agree that the evidence to date shows that there is a dramatic difference in employment opportunities between those who receive proper opportunities for education and those who do not?
The labour force survey shows that the longer you stay on at school and the greater the formal certification received the better equipped you are to take up the opportunities offered. The percentage of those who stay on in formal education is increasing yearly.
Would the Minister agree that the only way to break the cycle of poverty that exists in areas of multiple social and economic deprivation is to positively discriminate in favour of children in these deprived areas?
Deputy Byrne is quite correct, through education lies the pathway to many opportunities. It is essential, during a time when we are trying to manage resources, that extra resources should be targeted towards areas of deprivation. This policy goes across all Government Departments, and particularly the Department of Education.
(Dún Laoghaire): Will you begin with west County Dublin?
Because of the implied threat to the future of the Cork Dental School in the Minister's reply to Question No. 11, could I raise that matter on the Adjournment on behalf of Deputy J. O'Keeffe and myself?
The Deputy is too late.
We will be renewing the request next week.
We will get our teeth brushed up.
With regard to the school psychological assessment, will the psychological service be an in-house service of the Department of Education or will it come from the Department of Health? I think it is very important that the Department of Education provide the professional psychological assessment because there is virtually nothing available from health boards because of the cut-backs.
I am aware of the problem to which the Deputy referred. The educational psychologists and the psychological society, with whom I have been meeting, have been telling me that. I am very anxious that the psychological service would be properly monitored and evaluated in a professional way. I take note of the danger that the Deputy has mentioned.
