Vol. 393 No. 4
asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the matters discussed at the recent meeting of Heads of Government, convened by President Mitterrand to discuss developments in the German Democratic Republic and related matters; if any decisions were reached at the meeting; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
8.
asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on any discussions he had with the British Prime Minister in the course of the recent European Summit; if he took the opportunity to raise with her the case of the Birmingham Six; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose, to take Questions Nos. 7 and 8 together.
I attended the meeting, over dinner, on Saturday, 18 November, hosted by President Mitterrand in the Elysee, Paris and attended by the other Heads of Government of the Community countries and by the President of the Commission. Foreign Ministers met separately, as is the custom at European Councils, and joined us later.
The meeting was called to consider the implications for the Community of, and how it should respond to, the momentous events happening daily in Eastern Europe where barriers are being swept away and fundamental changes are taking place which will have a profound impact throughout our modern world. Our meeting lasted almost three hours and since it was, of its nature, informal no communique was issued. At a press conference after the meeting, which President Gonzalez of Spain and I, along with President Delors also attended, President Mitterrand outlined certain principles on which the meeting decided.
The Heads of State and Government had no doubt about their responsibility to take all measures open to them and adopt the necessary policies to support the peoples of Eastern Europe in their efforts to achieve democratic freedom.
Our meeting was of the view that the dramatic and welcome changes in Eastern Europe, emphasised the need to proceed even more expeditiously and effectively with the integration of the Community so that it would provide a focus for progress throughout Europe and be in a much stronger position to respond positively and effectively to the changes taking place.
One of the most significant and trenchant interventions was that of the Federal German Chancellor who stressed that the Federal Republic always has been and always will be part of the European Community, which it regards as essential to its future and to the future of Europe.
The meeting decided to ask a Troika, consisting of the French President, the Spanish President and myself together with the President of the Commission, to study a French proposal to establish a new international bank which would help in the restructuring and economic development of the countries of Eastern Europe. This group is to report to the European Council in Strasbourg on 8 and 9 December.
A second proposal was for the establishment of a foundation for training which would monitor and co-ordinate the provision of management training for the countries of Eastern Europe — already provided or in the course of being provided by a number of Community countries, including Ireland, on a bilateral basis.
Proposals were advanced for the participation by East European countries in a number of Community programmes, such as ERASMUS, dealing with the exchange of students, Lingua on the teaching of languages, and certain projects in the area of science and technology.
The meeting was firmly of the view that financial aid should be provided for Poland and Hungary and that a decision must be given by the International Monetary Fund before the end of this year on the requests submitted by these countries.
The question of how some or all of the East European countries concerned could be more closely involved in the work of international organisations like GATT and the Council of Europe was also considered.
The point was stressed that the situation of the different countries varied greatly. Poland is, for example, critically in need of food aid. The position of Hungary is better; and that in East Germany different again. The approach of the Community and the mechanisms for assistance must be adapted to the needs of each case. However, it was agreed that aid would be conditional on a verified or verifiable return to democracy, respect for human rights and free and secret elections in the countries concerned.
The meeting agreed that concentration on the events of Eastern Europe should not be permitted to call in question the relationships of the Community with the United States, the European Free Trade Area countries or its exiting commitments to the African, Caribbean, Pacific, Arab and other States and territories with which the Community has a long and valued association.
The meeting was regarded by those who took part as successful and well worthwhile. There was a feeling that history was unfolding before us as we considered the evolution of the East and the further integration of the West.
At his press conference, President Mitterrand used the words solidarity and unity to summarise the tone of our meeting. He was speaking of the solidarity of the Community as Eastern Europe comes to its rendezvous with history, and of structural change leading to greater integration within the Community.
The Government will deal with the Birmingham Six case and other Anglo-Irish questions during the course of this week's statements on Anglo-Irish relations.
I assume I am being called because I have a question down to the Taoiseach.
The second question. I rise in connection with Question No. 7——
I am here——
I have called Deputy Spring, who has a question tabled in the matter, Question No. 8, and who is present in the House.
Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. May I take it from the Taoiseach's reply that he did not have the opportunity of raising the question of the Birmingham Six? In regard to the British Prime Minister's remarks which she made at a press conference in relation to safe havens for the IRA, can I take it that those remarks were directed at the Republic of Ireland? Was the Taoiseach aware at the time of the discussion that the British Prime Minister was going to mention the contents of that conversation at a press conference?
I understand that the British Prime Minister used the phrase "safe havens anywhere" in her television broadcast. I was not aware that the British Prime Minister intended to give any press conference after the Summit meeting. In fact, as far as I understood the situation, the troika led by President Mitterrand were to conduct the necessary press conference.
It would appear from the conduct of the British Prime Minister at the weekend that she has a habit of conducting Anglo-Irish relations or Anglo-Irish diplomacy through the medium of press conferences. Has the Taoiseach conveyed to her that this is particularly unhelpful?
As soon as I became aware of the statement by the British Prime Minister I availed of the earliest opportunity to place on record my view, which I am sure would be the view of all Members of this House, that we are not aware of any safe havens anywhere for terrorists, and particularly for the Provisional IRA.
I would like some response from the Taoiseach in relation to the Birmingham Six. Did he have the opportunity of raising this case? Perhaps I could be accused of suffering from historical amnesia if I was not aware of the fact that Mrs. Thatcher's press conferences sometimes convey a totally different impression from what took place at meetings she has had with Irish Taoisigh, but could the Taoiseach inform the House if the impression she gave at the press conference on Sunday afternoon reflected what happened at his short meeting?
I have already indicated that the British Prime Minister and I did not have a meeting. As the Deputy knows from his own personal experience, as these conferences break up and people move away, frequently the different participants have a word with each other. Very often it is just to wish each other good luck until the next conference. That is the sort of conversation I had with the British Prime Minister, no more and no less.
Let me say first how much I welcomed President Mitterrand's initiative. I must thank the Taoiseach for the substantial answer he gave outlining what was discussed. I am glad to see that the question of further participation in various programmes, such as ERASMUS and GATT, were discussed there. Was there any discussion of the question of extending the EC further east at a later stage with a view to bringing the whole of Europe into the Community? Was there mention of how dangerous outside interference in the internal affairs of these countries during the course of the changes which are taking place could be if emphasised? I would like to know also if the question of further disarmament in Europe, under both the NATO and the Warsaw Pact, was touched upon?
The question of the relationship, now and in the future, of Eastern European countries with the Community was, of course discussed. I think I would be right in summarising the views by saying that the general view would be that it is too early to think of anything specific in that regard. As the Deputy knows, the relationship between a third country and the Community can vary from a trade agreement simpliciter to associate membership and, in that connection, the phrase "privileged association" was used, but more in the context of the future than the present.
In regard to the question about intervention by the Community in the affairs of these countries, that can best be met by my saying that the member states were very clearly of the view that all these issues in these countries are a matter for the countries themselves and that would apply particularly to questions about the reunification of Germany where the standard position is that this is primarily a matter for the German people.
On the question of disarmament, there was a clear view at our meeting that any questions of security or anything of that nature should be left to be dealt with in the context of the alliances which exist. In fact, they were not dealt with or discussed at all at our meeting, nor indeed was the question of frontiers and international boundaries. Again the view was that our meeting was not concerned with those issues.
Could the Taoiseach confirm that the view of the member states of the European Community in relation to external interference in the events in any of these Eastern European countries would be very much along the lines that the kind of democratic centralism we saw up to not so long ago is totally inappropriate in those cases and that they would wish to see that ruled out?
Centralism, not democratic centralism. There is a difference between centralism and democratic centralism.
I think the Taoiseach would probably agree with me that if events in Eastern Europe show anything, they show that a particular brand of Stalinism is now totally outmoded over there. I think the day is going to come when it will be totally outmoded over here. In the light of what the Taoiseach has been saying about Anglo-Irish relations and a very brief conversation with Mrs. Thatcher, would he not agree that the time is now ripe for the Taoiseach and Mrs. Thatcher to have a meeting, no matter how informal, in order that a number of rather vexatious impressions, on at least one side, and perhaps on two, could be got out of the way so that Anglo-Irish relations could get back on some basis of frankness and normality?
I would have to reject any suggestion that Anglo-Irish relations are not on a basis of frankness and normality. I would point out to the Deputy that the British Prime Minister and I will have a meeting in Strasbourg in a week or so.
Another one of those meetings in the margin?
Well, they are useful.
That is Mrs. Thatcher on the long finger.
I do not think she is the sort of lady that anybody would like to put on their long finger.
Diplomatically speaking.
I would like to ask the Taoiseach if, in view of the elimination of the Berlin Wall, he would discuss with the British Prime Minister the possibility of eliminating the 13, 25 foot walls which exist in the city of Belfast? In relation to the last question I would say to Deputy Dukes that it is a matter which should be taken up with the British Prime Minister at this stage.
Having regard to the Taoiseach's replies to a number of supplementaries and his indication of the unsatisfactory nature of brief encounters between different heads of Government at these European meetings, does he have any plans to have a full and formal meeting with the British Prime Minister so that a range of issues can be discussed in the fullness of time?
As I said in reply to Deputy Dukes, there will be a meeting between myself and the British Prime Minister in Strasbourg. These meetings are very useful and afford us an opportunity to deal with matters of mutual interest and concern. There is no time limit set for these meetings. So far I have always found them adequate for dealing with current issues as they arise.
