Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 May 1990

Vol. 398 No. 9

Adjournment Debate. - Carysfort (Dublin) College.

Mr. Gilmore

I thank you for allowing me to raise on the Adjournment the resale of Carysfort College which is of great importance to my constituency, especially to the Blackrock area. When Carysfort College was first put on the market last summer I asked the Minister for Education to ensure that the college be kept in public educational use I specifically suggested that Carysfort should be the location for the long-promised DunáLaoghaire RTC.

In the course of an Adjournment debate here on 20 July 1989 the Minister undertook to reopen discussions between senior officials of her Department and the Sisters of Mercy Order and to keep local Deputies informed of progress. I regret that the Minister did not succeed in keeping Carysfort for the public and that she used the excuse of a third party legal case to deny to me information about progress on the discussions. As we now know, Carysfort was sold. The Minister, instead of securing it for the State and for the future, settled for less than adequate compensation for the taxpayers' investment in the college. Indeed, the amount recovered was in real terms about one-fifth only of the real value of the investment. Since then, the new owners have obtained outline planning permission for 550 houses in Carysfort grounds and have put the college and approximately 20 acres back on the market. Reports in a number of newspapers suggest that the sale is about to be completed.

I should like to make a case to the Minister for Education that she purchase the college and the 20 acres and that she should further consider purchasing as much of the remainder of Carysfort park as comes back on the market. I have three main reasons for my request. First, there is widespread concern in Blackrock at the environmental impact of another 500 to 600 houses in an already densely populated area. Such a large scale development will place an intolerable burden on the already over-used roads, sanitary services and schools in the area. The problem for the planning authority is that in the seventies, for reasons which I cannot understand, Carysfort park was zoned for housing. Notwithstanding the current appeal to An Bord Pleanála it is virtually certain that planning permission will eventually be granted for some kind of housing development in Carysfort park. The only way this can be reduced or avoided is by the State purchasing as much of the property as possible.

Second, the needs of the people of Blackrock and Dún Laoghaire will not be met by another up market housing development but rather by open space recreational facilities. Only today I heard of yet another football club in the Blackrock area which cannot be allocated a playing pitch because there is no ground available. There is a critical shortage of outdoor playing facilities for sports clubs, expecially for girls' clubs. It would be a great shame to see Carysfort park covered in concrete when there is such a need. It has been described as the last green lung in Blackrock; build on it and it will be green no more.

In the past few years all the big green spaces in Blackrock, St. Helen's in Booterstown, the Dominican lands and now Carysfort, have been bought up for development. All this will choke Blackrock with additional houses and traffic. Carysfort, or at least part of it, can still be saved but only if the Minister acts quickly.

Thirdly, we need additional third level places for our young people. All the reports from the HEA and other bodies show that there is a critical shortage of third level places in Dublin and especially for non-university courses. This is what contributes to inequality in education and to discrimination against the children of PAYE workers and low income families whose taxes are paying for the education service in the first place. Dún Laoghaire has been promised a regional technical college but the plans for a Dún Laoghaire RTC are covered in dust in the Minister's office. Carysfort provides the Minister with a readymade facility which, with adaptation, could become the Dún Laoghaire RTC.

There is now some talk of a private educational concern acquiring Carysfort. Today it is reported that an Opus Dei-backed foundation may acquire the property. While a private college would keep Carysfort in education, it will be a poor comfort to the many young people from Dún Laoghaire, south Dublin and north Wicklow who would never be able to afford its exclusive fees and who are denied educational opportunity because there are no places. The Minister on 22 July expressed her wish that Carysfort be kept in public education.

The Government have already failed Carysfort twice, first by allowing it to close and, second, by allowing it to be sold. Please do not fail Carysfort a third time. Do not miss the opportunity to buy the college and grounds.

I see in a report in The Irish Times that the developers, Devmac, have already given the Minister an opportunity to acquire the building and 20 acres at terms which they describe as favourable. I appreciate that to purchase Carysfort is now an expensive option but only because the Government have failed twice to save it for public interest and have allowed it to be exploited for private speculative gain. It is very easy to point out that because of stretched public finances we cannot afford to buy Carysfort, but can the Government afford not to buy it?

The Minister's reply to my Dáil Question on Thursday last gives me little cause for optimism. She effectively said she will wait until Carysfort is sold, until there is another private interest involved, before she does anything about it. It will be too late then. Unless the State buys Carysfort — some of it is now on the market and on offer to the Minister — Carysfort College will not be a public educational facility, Carysfort park will become grey with houses within five years and Blackrock will be choked with the additional traffic which will be generated.

I am making this final appeal to the Minister. Do not let Carysfort sink for a third time.

Minister for Education (Mrs. O'Rourke)

I thank you, Sir, and I thank Deputy Gilmore for raising the matter. I had an informal discussion with him this morning and made sure he was aware I wished to answer the matter in the Dáil myself. He raised several issues. Let me lay some of them to rest immediately because, though put forward with great integrity, they are based on misconceptions.

First the Deputy questioned the right of the Sisters of Mercy to sell their own property — he did not say so openly but that was implied. I would like to put on the record of the House that of course it was the private property of the sisters. Last summer my concern was that I would guarantee the State interest in that property, which we did with quite a struggle and the Deputy played his part in that as did other Deputies in the House when I highlighted the issue here. Eventually a valuation to safeguard the State's interest in it was agreed and that sum of money will be conveyed to the Department of Education in July when the sisters leave the property. The amount has been publicly declared and was arrived at by common consent. I do not deny that there was quite a bother, so to speak, to get it, and it required discussions, sometimes heightened, in public to bring about an amicable solution. However, in the end we were all in agreement and I thank the nuns for the ending of that phase.

The second question is about the wider ownership of the Carysfort land. With naivety or, if I may say so, a pretence of naiety, the Deputy asked me to ask the Government to purchase the whole area which is zoned for housing. I put it to Deputy Gilmore that Dún Laoghaire Corporation have agreed to the plan for housing, and that it was open to them to alter their development plan materially if they so wished——

Mr. Gilmore

Planning compensation.

Mrs. O'Rourke

——and to preserve the land. The public representatives of Dún Laoghaire agreed to the planning of 500 houses. To bring that to the door of my Department and to tell them to undo what was done by Dún Laoghaire Corporation is nave in the extreme. I suggest that is a matter for which the local authority members and executive of Dún Laoghaire Corporation have shouldered responsibility. Whether we agree with their decision is another matter. They saw fit at a properly convened, statutory meeting to take that decision. There is an appeal against it by An Bord Pleanála and the Deputy has admitted that that appeal would really have not much basis because the area was zoned for housing in the seventies. Be that as it may, it is disingenuous in the extreme to put forward that the Department of Education should now foot the bill for a planning decision made by Dún Laoghaire Corporation to allow 500 houses to be built. That disposes of the second issue.

I want to put on record the commitment of the Mercy Order to the training of teachers over so many years. The benefit of their work will extend into the next century. We are inclined to overlook that and to consider that they have been the only gainers. The country and the world have gained through the training of so many fine primary teachers by the nuns who gave up their lives and, in many cases, their salaries.

The third issue is that of the buildings and the surrounding 20 acres which the Deputy said, rightly, were the subject of discussion between my Department and, first, the convent authorities and, later, the group who took over the whole enterprise. Last autumn a group of technical people from my Department examined it in the light of the proposal to have an RTC located on that site. I have stated publicly the technical advice given to me and on which I place reliance because in technical matters one has to take account of the expertise of the people involved. It was to the effect that most of that building was not at present suitable for, nor would it be amenable to conversion to a regional college, that because of its nature a regional college requires rooms of particular sizes which must be adapted to technical equipment, heavy equipment and so on. All of the older building and much of what would be termed the newer type building would not be suitable for that. That was the basis of the plea from Deputy Gilmore and other Deputies. I want to commend Deputy Brian Hillery who met with me repeatedly in regard to Dún Laoghaire education requirements, and Deputies Andrews, Monica Barnes and Seán Barrett, who all joined here one evening in a common debate on the subject.

The question arose: what was to be done with the property? There is an ongoing need for third level places and for accommodation for all sorts of activities. I take the point the Deputy made about the need for Dublin and greater Dublin, which have the second lowest participation in third level education, to get more third level places. That is borne out by Clancy's report which is there for all to see. Sometimes I have little patience with other areas who come in with demands for third level educational facilities when I know the Dublin area has the least participation in that regard. On that basis we instituted the college at Tallaght. It was serving a population need. Third level educational needs in Dún Laoghaire were evidenced in the earlier decision to build an RTC on the Carriglea site. The site was purchased and then the College of Art was established. The general third-level needs of the greater Dublin area have been kept under constant review, though the Government coming in in 1987 took a decision to defer the provision of further third level places pending the interdepartmental report which is nearing completion now. In tandem with those decisions, we have always kept an eye on third level needs throughout the country. The Clancy report, my thoughts on the matter and the Government decision arising out of all that led to the establishment of the Tallaght college and its building has commenced. The College of Art, the very fine and exciting development there in the School of Animation and the Ballyfermot centre have all rightly achieved very favourable notice and hold out great promise for future employment for creative young people.

Currently talks are in progress, I understand, between the owner of the whole property and sub-sets who wish to purchase the school properties, the training properties and the surrounding 20 acres for use as education-training development. I assure the Deputy and the House that, while I am not formally involved in those talks, I am informally kept informed about what is happening. It might be said I have my eye very much on the matter. That is against the background that the college would not be suitable for conversion to an RTC and my wish to keep in mind the third level needs of the country and the Dublin and greater Dublin area in particular.

I understand that the report in the newspapers this morning suggests that a particular group have bought the property but that is not true. Matters should reach a conclusion within the next couple of weeks when I expect there will be a wider and more open debate on the issue.

To sum up, Dún Laoghaire Corporation have given their assent to the building of 500 houses, the religious order will repay to the State in July the amount of money and the buildings cannot be easily converted to a regional college. I accept the points made by Deputies Gilmore, Hillery, Andrews and others that there is need for a critical look at the provision of third level places in Dún Laoghaire but that is a wider issue and a matter for further debate.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 May 1990.