Vol. 399 No. 3
5 Miss Flaherty asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will outline his policy on the proposal, made by the Secretary of his Department, for the future issuing of social welfare identification cards and that such cards would be a source of identification data for many Government Departments.
7 Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will make a statement on the proposal to issue magnetic identification cards for use by his Department.
11 Mr. Byrne asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he intends to issue to the entire adult population, magnetic identity cards resulting in his Department acting as a supplier of data to a wide variety of organisations and agencies; if he will outline the implication for the rights of the citizen to access to the files and the civil rights of the individual to opt out of such a scheme; the implications for the rights of privacy of the citizen; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 5, 7 and 11 together.
My Department already issue cards in a number of circumstances. Prior to 1979 all insured persons were issued with an insurance card which provided identification and to which insurance stamps were affixed. At present new entrants to social insurance are provided with a lightweight card advising them of their RSI number and unemployed persons are issued with signing cards which they must produce for identification each time they attend at the local employment exchange or office. More durable signing cards have been provided for unemployed persons and a pilot scheme of plastic cards to claimants in a number of offices in Dublin has been quite successful. Many of these cards are used for identification purposes when the holder is dealing with my Department and the Department will continue to seek better ways of improving identification procedures.
At this stage, the question of whether magnetic cards will be used for social welfare purposes is a possibility that is being examined in a general way having regard to various factors. Progress in this area will depend, I believe, on the opportunities provided by emerging technologies. There is no immediate need for such cards at present. In view of the widespread use of magnetic cards by banks and other financial institutions, magnetic cards may have something to offer social welfare claimants in the future. Such cards could extend the range and nature of the services that my Department might provide.
I am examining various measures which would offer improved services to claimants in the future. These services would include greatly improved access to our services at local level, comprehensive advice on social welfare entitlements and related services or benefits and, ideally, a wider range of payment options. Improvements of this nature will not be fully realised until better arrangements are available for claimants to establish their identities. It is intended that identification of claimants will be based mainly on the individual's RSI number.
Planning is underway to move responsibility for the issuing and management of the RSI numbering system from the Revenue Commissioners to my Department. This will help to improve service to the public and act as an important control measure. The scope for abuse involving personation will be reduced by a more secure identification arrangement. These new arrangements will begin to be phased in later this year and the actual transfer of responsibility will take place next year.
There are no plans to issue identification cards, magnetic or otherwise, to the entire adult population, nor are there plans for my Department to act as a general supplier of information on individuals to other Departments or organisations. The exchange of data between my Department and other organisations is strictly regulated in law. Apart from specific provisions within the social welfare code, the Data Protection Act introduced in 1988 gives protection to members of the public in relation to computerised information.
Since 1979, when the PRSI scheme was introduced, data on employer and employee PRSI contributions collected by the Revenue Commissioners is transferred to my Department for social welfare purposes. These contributions are used as the basis for deciding on entitlements to social insurance claims. In addition, my Department have links to and exchange information with other agencies such as health boards and FÁS.
I thank the Minister for his reply which ranged over areas which perhaps were not directly related to the question. Will he clarify the status of the remarks made by the secretary of his Department, in which he indicated that he expected they would issue social welfare ID cards to the total adult population? Will he ensure that any changes — I can see that there might be merit at some stage in such a system — will entail maximum attention being given to the privacy, records and confidentiality of the individual because that is the area that caused greatest concern in response to the remarks made?
I assure the Deputy — as I have in my original reply to the three different questions — that there is adequate provision in law under the Data Protection Act to protect people in this regard. There are also other protections and I intend to ensure that there is protection for our clients, the only people with whom we will deal. The secretary of the Department did not make any statement in regard to this matter. The remarks were made by one of the assistant secretaries who was quoted following a technical conference in which he was explaining the developments in technology which could, in future, affect the way we do things.
There is no doubt that technology will effect us. A wide range of cards is available from Telecom and there are insurance cards to all sorts of others. This is the way people live nowadays. We have done surveys on the attitude of our clients to cards generally. We find that younger people do not understand anything else and that they want this kind of transaction, whereas older people are much more reluctant to accept it. It is interesting to note — as I learned recently — that in France when older people had the availability and the facility which went with these cards they took to them very quickly. It is one thing to do a survey and to find that people are not very enthusiastic but it can be very different when facilities and options under this kind of system are provided. If the Deputy reads my answer fully she will see the direction in which we are going.
Is the Minister for or against the system?
I am calling Deputy Ferris as his Priority Question No. 7 refers to this matter.
My question specifically refers to the magnetic identification cards. When the Minister talked about cards he did not say whether all social welfare recipients had been offered Visa, American Express, Gold Card, Access or others. Why has the Minister chosen to give identity cards to categories of social welfare recipients? It discriminates against one section. The question of an identity card for everyone — regardless of whether they have a social welfare number — is a different matter. The Minister admitted that he has confined identification cards to recipients of social welfare.
No. The Deputy should refer to my comprehensive reply to three questions. In the old days people were not used to plastic cards and there was just one social welfare card in operation. We modernised the system and transferred the issuing of RSI numbers to the Revenue Commissioners. As was pointed out by Deputies on many recent occasions, that has not been the most satisfactory arrangement in relation to the RSI numbers as they apply to social welfare. It is quite satisfactory in relation to collection of moneys but we are concerned with paying the people and there have been many instances in which this has not been satisfactory. We will now take over the issuing of RSI numbers which is a huge undertaking. Do not underestimate its size. We are going back to the 1979 system but we will be using modern methods. There used to be one card for unemployment assistance but it is now a combined one for unemployment assistance and benefit. It is very simple, everyone who has one uses it regularly. The signing day, RSI number and certification number are entered on the back of the card and nobody has any problem. There is no discrimination in this regard. We really need to have RSI numbers very clearly issued. I have not doubt that new technology will operate in this area because the Department involved is a leader in this regard.
Deputy Ferris rose.
I want to make progress on other questions, we are dealing with questions nominated for priority in which a rigid time limit applies. I will allow one question.
The Minister has just confirmed that his Department will only issue these cards to people in receipt of social welfare——
There is nothing new about this system, it operated in 1979. Perhaps the Deputy has only now discovered it? Everybody had a card in 1979 — perhaps the Deputy is too young to remember — it was very useful because they could show it to employers. However, with the improvements in the scheme and the PRSI system coming into effect the card was done away with. With it the control that the individual had also went. As a result of demand from Deputies in this House — apart from anything else — we are coming back to the system where the RSI numbers will be issued by the Department. What they use it for afterwards is their own business but some people will find it very useful. People get all sorts of benefits in shops when they produce the unemployment card; that has nothing to do with the Department although, of course, they encourage shops to provide such benefits.
