Vol. 405 No. 9
8 Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Social Welfare if his attention has been drawn to the anomaly whereby an insured person working in Britain and making social insurance contributions in Britain will not be eligible for social insurance contributions in Ireland unless they work one week and make one week's social insurance contributions; the steps he will take to rectify this anomaly; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
14 Mr. Byrne asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will outline the procedures for EC nationals who wish to avail of unemployment assistance and/or other social welfare benefits that they may be eligible for, and who are actively seeking work here and have no independent means or financial support, in view of the rapidly approaching free-flow of labour within Europe in 1992.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 8 and 14 together.
That is unfair.
A person who becomes unemployed in one member state should first claim unemployment benefit under the legislation of that State. If, after a minimum of four weeks, he is still unemployed and decides to seek employment in another member state he may, under the EC regulations, transfer his unemployment benefit to that State. He will then be able to claim benefit immediately on arrival in the State and may continue to receive it for up to 13 weeks, while he or she is seeking work.
Where a person is not receiving unemployment benefit before coming to Ireland, the EC Regulations provide that contributions paid in another member state can be taken into account for entitlement to unemployment benefit under Irish legislation. Before these contributions can be counted, however, the person must first become insured under Irish legislation by becoming employed here. It is because of this requirement that the person cannot be paid unemployment benefit on the basis of foreign insurance if the person concerned does not have at least one social insurance contribution in the country which is responsible for the payment of the unemployment benefit. This requirement is legislated for within the EC Regulations on social security and applies equally in every member state.
Unemployment benefit is the only benefit which has such a requirement. Sickness benefit under EC Regulations is paid by the country of last employment while pensions are paid by each State concerned.
The difficulties which this requirement can give rise to particularly in the case of persons who are returning to a member state from which they have emigrated and with which they have close family ties have been acknowledged in the Community.
I placed this specific issue on the agenda of the meeting of Social Affairs Ministers which I hosted during the Irish Presidency. The Ministers agreed that the Commission should give priority to bringing forward proposals for decision by the Council to meet this and other related problems.
The Commission services have indicated that they will bring forward proposals for consideration shortly.
Social assistance payments are not covered by the EC Regulations. Any person claiming these payments in any member state is subject to the national conditions which cover eligibility for such payments in the State concerned. A person who comes to Ireland and is not entitled to payment of unemployment benefit is entitled to claim unemployment assistance. To qualify for payment such person will have to satisfy the conditions for eligibility in the same way as all claimants and there are no special requirements in the scheme related to the person's nationality.
Supplementary welfare allowance is also available to any person resident in Ireland regardless of nationality, whose means are insufficient to meet their needs.
I tabled my question because of the very large number of people who returned from England at Christmas because of the recession in Britain. Would the Minister agree that there is an anomaly in a situation where people are required to be seeking and available for work but cannot obtain benefit unless they get one week's work? Is it not possible for the Minister to act independently of the other EC member states in this matter and simply allow eligibility if people have the required contributions and credits on British cards?
Two important matters arise in relation to this question. First, emigrants who are planning to return to Ireland would be wise, if possible, to claim their unemployment benefit, if that is due, in Britain for four weeks before coming back in which case they would then become entitled to the 13 weeks' unemployment benefit. That would then give them an opportunity to find employment when they return here. That is EC law. The social security arrangements are made under the provisions of EC law.
The anomaly to which the Deputy refers is one that we in the EC do not particularly like and for this reason it has been debated a great deal over the years. It is known as the one stamp rule, that is persons must get one stamp when they come back. If returning emigrants have the opportunity to draw the four weeks unemployment benefit there they should do so and they will then be eligible for the 13 weeks unemployment benefit here. Subsequently we recoup that money from Britain.
The one stamp rule has been debated over the years but we could never reach agreement on it at EC level. I brought it forward again during the Irish Presidency. I was advised that it was probable that we would not get acceptance but we brought it forward on the basis of countries with which people have close family ties, for example, a person from Ireland, who works in England, who comes back to Ireland where he has family ties, in that case it should be possible to transfer his unemployment benefit. The EC does not want people going around the EC, moving from country to country, unless they have at least looked for work for four weeks after they became redundant in a particular country. If they look for work for the four weeks, then the EC accepts that they can move and take their unemployment benefit with them. The indications from the work which is taking place at EC level at present are good. I could not be too optimistic about it but the Commission is preparing proposals. Once they come back to the Council of Ministers, which I hope will be in the reasonably near future we will press as hard as possible. That is the position in relation to the one stop rule; it is covered in the EC legislation on social security.
Recognising that the Minister has brought forward many progressive proposals and removed many anomalies from the social welfare code during his term of office, would he not agree that people working in England are simply not aware of the four week rule? Does he know of any way in which that could be reformed in the short term? Would it be possible to seek a derogation from the EC regulation? Can he explain to the House the reason for this rule?
I thought I had explained it to some extent. The position is that a person is in the social security system of another EC country and, as I have said, it does not apply to pensions, disability benefit or other areas. The reason is the fear that large numbers of people would move from country to country, or to one country in particular, and draw unemployment payments in that country without genuinely seeking work. We have argued against this position for a resolution of the problem. During the Irish Presidency we got what the experts regarded as surprisingly favourable views on the question of countries with close ties, as a practical way of dealing with the problem. That is the line we are pursuing, and we will do so as vigorously as we can.
I must call Question No. 9. If it is to be dealt with at all it must be dealt with now.
