It is proposed to take Nos, 3, 4 and 15. It is also proposed, subject to the agreement of the House, that: (1) Business shall be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. tonight, (2) the Minister for Health shall be called on to reply to the debate on the Second Stage of No. 4 not later than 6.45 p.m. and the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 7 p.m., (3) the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach shall be called on not later than 10.25 p.m. to reply to the debate on No. 15 and the question necessary to bring the proceedings to a conclusion shall be put not later than 10.30 p.m., and (4) Private Members' Business shall be No. 35.
Order of Business.
Business shall be interrupted at 10.30 tonight. Is that satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 4 agreed?
No. We do not agree to this unduly short debate on the legislation on the health services. This legislation is unwise and unacceptable in principle and we believe more time should be allowed for debate on the principle of the legislation, in view of its total inadequacy in dealing with the existence of a two-tier health service and the ever-lengthening queues and waiting lists in the health service.
I am opposing the application of the guillotine to this Bill. My party do not oppose this Bill which we believe to be a good and proper Bill, but nevertheless we believe that three hours for Second Stage debate is totally inadequate and on that basis we are opposing the application of the guillotine. It is not sufficient time to deal with many of the related issues in the hospital services to which many Deputies want to give an airing. I am in favour of the expeditious processing of legislation through this House and some more rational way of dealing with legislation, other than the application of the guillotine, must be found. The Child Care Bill, which has been rambling through both Houses for six years, has still not been brought to a conclusion, yet we are capable of applying guillotines to legislation within days of its introduction to the House.
I have no desire to make a song and dance in relation to the Order of Business and I particularly do not want to depress the Taoiseach. This is the third week in a row in which the Order of Business has been brought in by guillotine. I appeal to the Taoiseach to try to reorder our business in such a fashion that we do not have the Government voting in favour of a guillotine every Tuesday afternoon. It is not a desirable way to conduct business.
In reply to the points raised by Deputy Bruton, I am astonished that he is not accepting this legislation. It establishes the availability of hospital services to a wider section of our community.
At whose expense?
People have been waiting two years as it is. Who is the Taoiseach trying to cod?
It is a question of time allocation.
Deputy Allen, I will not tolerate that kind of conduct from any Member of this House. This is a democratic assembly. Members are entitled to be heard here without constant interruptions from the likes of you.
Ongoing guillotines.
Deputy Allen, if you persist I shall have to ask you to leave the House.
He endeavours to make an impression by being unmannerly. I regret that we have to curtail time but I really think Deputies who are serious about this matter cannot have it both ways. We are constantly under pressure from the Opposition to get more legislation enacted and the only way to do it is by curtailing the time taken on legislation of this kind in particular. It is a simple, one-issue Bill and if we use our time properly we can discuss it in the time allocated.
Beds are closing all over the place. Forty beds have been closed in Cork this week.
Please, Deputy Allen. Even when the Chair is on his feet to put a question to the House the Deputy continues to be disorderly.
I apologise.
Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with item No. 4 be agreed."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 74; Níl, 56.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullimore, Séamus.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Lyons, Denis.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, Jim.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P. J.
- Nolan, M. J.
- Noonan, Michael J.
- (Limerick West).
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Dennehy, John.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Ellis, John.
- Fahey, Frank.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
- Flood, Chris.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kelly, Laurence.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Toole, Martin Joe.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Roche, Dick.
- Smith, Michael.
- Stafford, John.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barnes, Monica.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Belton, Louis J.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Cotter, Bill.
- Crowley, Frank.
- Currie, Austin.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Garland, Roger.
- Gregory, Tony.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kemmy, Jim.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Lee, Pat.
- McCartan, Pat.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- Mac Giolla, Tomás.
- McGrath, Paul.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- Owen, Nora.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Sheehan, Patrick J.
- Sherlock, Joe.
- Spring, Dick.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Boylan and Durkan.
Question declared carried.
In response to parliamentary questions about two or three weeks ago the Taoiseach indicated that he wished to have a debate in the House on the issues arising from the intergovernmental conferences in regard to economic and monetary union and political union. When does he expect the debate to take place?
I would be interested in having the Whips discuss the matter. It seems fairly clear that the topics about which the House is primarily concerned, namely, common foreign and security policy, have receded far into the future and I am not sure that a debate on those aspects would be urgent. However, I am prepared to talk to the parties about that. If the House is under pressure for legislation then it might be advisable to leave that debate until the autumn. It would be much more relevant then. I shall know more about that shortly because the President of the Council — Luxembourg have the presidency — will be coming to Ireland to discuss the forthcoming Council and I will have a better idea then of the immediate agenda. It might be a more appropriate way to proceed if the matter were to be left over until I could report on the Luxembourg Council. At the moment it does not seem that there will be any immediate action on that issue.
I now call on Deputy Spring.
I want to go back on that matter.
I am sure that Deputy Bruton realises that it would not be in order to have debate on that issue now. The question has been posed and it has been answered.
There should be a committee on foreign affairs and then there would be no hold-up on legislation.
That is not a matter to be decided by the Chair.
Given that the preparations for discussions in Northern Ireland have now entered their fifth week without any formal discussions taking place, can the Taoiseach say whether consideration will be given to an extension of time for the talks or the resumption of the intergovernmental conferences. Or are the Government concerned that the talks have not commenced and that all formalities for the three stages have not been agreed to?
The Government are very concerned and disappointed about that. I assure the House that the Government have been making every effort to have the matters brought into focus or to have the arrangements perfected. The next meeting of the Intergovernmental Conference is fixed. The Government certainly would not be prepared to make any difficulties in that connection.
I wish to ask a question in respect of the promised legislation arising from a commitment in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. When will legislation to establish the legal aid service on a statutory basis be circulated? At what stage of drafting is the legislation?
It will not be ready this session.
Is the matter under active consideration? Is legislation being drafted at the moment?
All the Government's obligations under the programme are being pursued.
Could the Taoiseach say when the legislation is likely to be introduced?
No, I could not.
In view of the fact that the Minister for Industry and Commerce has said that the 1973 patent legislation is presenting certain difficulties and that a constitutional referendum may be required, why is it not possible to hold that referendum on local election day, 27 June?
Two different pieces of legislation are involved. The Government are proceeding with one of them. The other matter is not immediately on the agenda.