It is proposed to take Nos. 8, 4, 13 and 1. It is also proposed that No. 8 shall be decided without debate Private Members' Business shall be No. 37, motion 50.
Order of Business.
Before Deputy Bruton rises, may I ask if it is agreed that No. 8 be taken without debate.
No, Sir. My party do not agree to take No. 8 without debate or with debate. We believe this attempt to guillotine legislation through this House is fundamentally anti-democratic and occurs only because this Government do not wish to allow Dáil Éireann to continue in session because the Government are unable to resolve their own internal difficulties in regard to the budget and other matters and do not wish to find themselves under scrutiny in this House.
On No. 8, for the reasons I have already stated, we are going to oppose the Order of Business today because this is not the way to do business. This House needs more time to discuss vital issues, in particular the Estimates and the Revised Estimates which are now under consideration by the Cabinet.
As I have said here previously on other occasions when opposing motions of this kind, I do not have any objection in principle to guillotines in certain circumstances; for instance, I do not oppose the guillotine on section 4 of this motion which seeks finally to deal with the Child Care Bill which has been rattling around the system of this House since 1985. There are occasions when it is necessary to apply guillotines but it is quite unacceptable to have seven other Bills being guillotined this week. I would draw particular attention to the Temple Bar Bill which we were told last week was being taken off the agenda for this week and then we were told it was being put on again. We are not being given any time to debate the Committee Stage of that Bill. There is quite an extraordinary situation in relation to that Bill. We are told that in order to ensure the proper development of that area a bus station was not suitable, but in the middle of the Bill we now find——
The subject matter of the Bill should not arise now.
——there is provision to provide multistorey car parks which we will not have an opportunity to delete from that Bill. It is totally unacceptable that this range of Bills should be rammed through this House this week in view of the fact that we are not being given adequate time. I would urge the Taoiseach yet again to do what was promised two years ago in this House by way of the Programme for Government which was agreed between Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats, that they would introduce proposals for reform of how we do our business in this House.
I think the Deputy has made his point.
It is way past time that that was done.
I am now asking the House if it agrees, in respect of the Order of Business proposed by the Taoiseach, that No. 8 shall be decided without debate.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 76; Níl 69.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Calleary, Séan.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
- Cullimore, Séamus.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Dennehy, John.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Fahey, Frank.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
- Flood, Chris.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kelly, Laurence.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, Jim.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Morley, P.J.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Noonan, Michael.
- (Limerick West).
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Toole, Martin Joe.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Roche, Dick.
- Smith, Michael.
- Stafford, John.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Ahearn, Therese.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barnes, Monica.
- Bell, Michael.
- Belton, Louis J.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Cotter, Bill.
- Creed, Michael.
- Crowley, Frank.
- Currie, Austin.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Garland, Roger.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gregory, Tony.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kemmy, Jim.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Lee, Pat.
- Lowry, Michael.
- McCartan, Pat.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- Mac Giolla, Tomás.
- McGrath, Paul.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sherlock, Joe.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Howlin.
Question declared carried.
Deputy John Bruton on the Order of Business.
Will the Taoiseach say whether the Government propose to make any statement on the measures they intend to take in regard to the overrun on the budget for this year?
That matter does not arise on the Order of Business.
Sir, will the Taoiseach agree——
It can be raised at another time but not now.
A Cheann Comhairle, you have not yet put the Order of Business. It is "fast forward" by Fine Gael.
The Deputies on that side were slow in taking their seats.
I will be dealing with that later, Deputy.
A Cheann Comhairle, you might be able to assist the House. I am not clear as to where precisely we are in relation to the Order of Business. We have voted on No. 8 but the Order of Business in toto has not yet been agreed. Is that correct?
We have only agreed that No. 8 be taken without debate. I shall be putting that matter formally before the House later, that the motion in respect of No. 8 be agreed.
Am I in order in raising the proposal to take all Stages of No. 4 today?
That question has not been put.
Sorry, Deputy McCartan, I am trying to pursue a line of questioning. Am I in order now to raise the proposal on today's Order of Business to take all Stages of No. 4 by 7 o'clock?
It is covered by No. 8.
Therefore, as it is covered by No. 8 it has been decided upon?
I shall be putting it later. The House has only decided to take No. 8 without debate.
If it has been decided to take it without debate — and you will be putting it later — what precisely will you be putting to be taken without debate?
I will be calling on the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach to move that the motion be agreed in respect of No. 8. There can be no debate but it can be challenged of course.
At that stage the Order of Business will be over.
Why is it on the Order Paper twice?
The first question was that it be taken without debate. Having disposed of that it must be put again to you formally that it be agreed. That is the normal procedure. I am calling Deputy Rabbitte.
Deputy J. Bruton rose.
I thought you had concluded, Deputy Bruton.
On the Order of Business, I want to ask a conventional question about business of the House. May I ask the Government and the Taoiseach if they will make provision for an announcement of their intentions in this House in regard to the over-run that has emerged on the budget?
That matter does not arise now. As I have said earlier, there will be ample opportunity for Deputies to ventilate their views on that subject later this week and next week.
I do not wish to ventilate my views on the subject; I merely want to know if the Government will provide time to make an announcement on the matter.
This is not Question Time.
In relation to the ordering of business in this House may I ask the Taoiseach if he considers it important that time is provided to discuss the over-run? You, Sir, seem to feel that we will have an opportunity of discussing this matter in the context of the Estimates, but it is apparent that the Estimates will have to be altered significantly. Surely this House should have time to address the matter before we debate the Estimates.
There is no question of the Estimates being altered significantly.
The Minister for Finance said so at 1 o'clock.
As you rightly pointed out, a Cheann Comhairle, the Estimates will provide an ample opportunity for Deputies to discuss that matter.
Which Estimates?
All the Estimates.
The published Estimates or the ones you will decide on?
May I ask the Taoiseach or the Minister for Industry and Commerce if time will be provided before the House rises to discuss the appointment of a group to review industrial policy and if we will have an opportunity to debate the scope, membership and task of that group?
Deputy Rabbitte will have to raise that matter at a more appropriate time.
Questions may not be put down concerning this matter.
I cannot facilitate the Deputy now.
(Limerick East): I thank the Taoiseach for his assurances that the Estimates will not be altered. In view of the fact that the Minister for Finance has said that remedial action will be taken on the over-run, am I to take it from the Taoiseach that we will have a second Finance Bill this year?
No.
That matter is not in order now.
(Limerick East): It is a very important matter.
Indeed it is, and there are ways and means of raising it in this House other than on the Order of Business.
(Limerick East): Not if we do not get time to raise it.
May I ask the Taoiseach in respect of promised legislation, particularly legislation that was promised to be circulated and dealt with by the end of this session, when legislation will be introduced to amend the family planning laws to make condoms more freely available?
Is this legislation promised?
Yes, it is promised. It is likely that the legislation will be published during the recess and taken next session.
A Cheann Comhairle—
I will call the Deputy if he will be patient. I am calling Deputy Dick Spring.
The Taoiseach seems to be indicating that it is not necessary for this House to have a special debate on the budget over-run. Are we to take it then that the Government are not going to take corrective action in relation to this matter?
I am sorry, I have ruled on that matter.
With respect, the Taoiseach is telling us that nothing will happen——
The matter cannot be debated now, Deputy Spring.
——while the Minister for Finance said on radio that the Government will take action, but not until the Dáil rises. He should make an announcement in this House.
I would like to ask the Taoiseach and the Government if they are aware of the serious concern among the general public about the necessity for indemnity for insurance brokers and people with life assurance. Large sums of money have been invested——
Deputy Enright knows full well from his experience in this House that that matter must be raised at a more appropriate time, and I will assist him in that regard. He may not ventilate his views now.
May I——
I am sorry, Deputy Enright, this is totally out of order.
I am not asking to ventilate my views on that matter; I am anxious to inquire whether the Government have promised legislation on this matter. I put it to the Taoiseach and the Government——
Is legislation promised in this area?
No.
The Deputy will have to raise the matter at a more appropriate time.
I would like to know whether the Taoiseach and the Government will be introducing legislation in this regard.
Deputy John Bruton, a final question.
There are people who have lost between £2 million and £6 million.
Deputy Enright will have to desist.
These are innocent victims——
Deputy Enright, please obey the Chair.
This is a very serious matter——
I am calling the Leader of your party, Deputy John Bruton.
——in that innocent people have lost life savings. I am calling on the Taoiseach to look into the matter and give it serious consideration.
Deputy Enright may not ignore the Chair in this fashion.
May I ask the Taoiseach when it is proposed to take item No. 22, the Electoral Bill? Will he give an assurance that that Bill will not be taken under a guillotine so as to ensure that the provisions in regard to the proposed ban on opinion polling will be properly debated and decided on in this House?
That legislation will be taken next session. It is a matter for the Whips to decide the time-table to be followed.
Can we have an assurance that there will be no proposal to guillotine this Bill?
That depends entirely on the co-operation of the Opposition.
It does not.