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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 26 Nov 1991

Vol. 413 No. 5

Regional Technical Colleges Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Over the years the Dublin Institute of Technology qualifications by way of diplomas and certificates have achieved international recognition by educational and professional employers, trade union and other organisations. A diploma and a certificate from any of the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges has the guaranteed quality mark. The current liaison between the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges and Trinity College, whereby the Dublin Institute of Technology currently have 12 degree courses validated by Trinity College has been a very happy relationship. The Dublin Institute of Technologys are very grateful to Trinity for providing the facility. However, it is a strange situation that the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges provide the courses, which are recognised as being of degree quality and status, but nevertheless the colleges have to have the degrees validated by a university, in this case Trinity College. In the Bill the Minister takes unto himself the right to allow these colleges to award degrees in the future. I fail to see, however, why this cannot be introduced now and why the Minister will not now enshrine in the Bill the right of these colleges to award certificates, diplomas and degrees. I fail to understand why there should be mystery or mystique about the awarding of degrees. Surely if the New University of Limerick, formerly the NIHE, and Dublin City University, formerly the NIHE Glasnevin, have been earlier this year bestowed with degree-awarding powers, I cannot see why the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges cannot be given such conferral powers now and not left to the discretion of the Minister at some future date. Fine Gael will be introducing an amendment to this effect on Committee Stage.

One of the biggest challenges facing education particularly at second level and, by extension, into third level is the challenge of having our education system meet the employment demands in the real world. When one examines the technical content at second level one finds that woodwork, metalwork, mechanical drawing, engineering technology are supplied in the bulk of vocational schools. However, quite a substantial number of secondary schools still shy away from vocational or technical content or give a very limited range of choice. Apart from the fact of meeting the aptitudes, needs and abilities of the pupils, there is the obvious need to meet the growing demands for people with skills and technical training. It is incredible that there are still approximately 300 second level schools which do not have any technical subjects whatever. There is an obvious need for a total re-orientation of our second level education, both from the point of view of providing additional technical subjects, new technical subjects and a wider range in the technical curriculum. This is something that will inevitably go to the top of the educational agenda.

One of the major problems facing the country has been our failure to rise to new challenges. Our tendency is to buckle beneath the challenges rather than confront them, master them, exploit them to our advantage or see them as opportunities. Our failure to change, to adapt and meet these challenges has marked our performance on many fronts.

As the Minister is aware, less than 20 years ago our farmers were told to produce more milk and beef. Grants for milking parlours, and drainage to bring more land into production and headage grants were very much the order of the day. However, all this suddenly changed utterly and there is now a complete U-turn on policy. Farmers and farm families are now left wallowing in a whirlpool of dismay, uncertainty and indecision. Little diversification has taken place, and we have begun to talk about organic farming almost too late.

We have repeatedly talked ourselves into a top spin about tourism with seminars, studies and stop-go pilot projects. Yet we have failed miserably in the basic task of attracting tourists here. That is the job we have to do. We are tremendous at producing global statistics about growth in industry but the truth is that there is no growth in our tourism industry. The bottom line is that tourists are not coming here. Yesterday I received in the post a very interesting, glossy, well produced and expensive report produced by the tourist board for my area, the 1990 Ireland West report. The report is ecstatic about the fact that tourist revenue for the region grew from the 1989 level of £194 million to £217.4 million in 1990. This is supposed to represent a growth rate of 11.6 per cent. They pride themselves on achieving their target in relation to overseas visitors. Any owners of guesthouses and small hotels will tell you that this is arrant nonsense. There are very few tourists around. At a time when numbers have actually dropped, the capacity of semi-State organisations to come up with global assertions of growth astounds me. In fact, to do so is to run from reality.

I want to see a complete reorientation of education. We need to steer education away from its massive over-emphasis, particularly at second level and, by extension, at third level on the academic. I want to see far greater emphasis on the technical. I see absolutely no reason whatever why vocational schools, community schools, community colleges and comprehensive schools which have in some cases up to £500,000 worth of expensive technical equipment cannot undertake pre-apprenticeship training and the first stage of apprenticeship training at post-junior certificate level, particularly for students who do not have a very strong academic bias but who have a very strong technical and vocational orientation.

We live in a world where the influence of technology is already very powerful and will continue to grow and dominate.

From the point of view of meeting educational requirements of providing the necessary courses to seek out, meet and develop the manual and technical skills of students, we must provide the range and options of technical subjects in every post-primary school. Every school without exception should have a core technical content. We must elevate the status of technical subjects to its right and proper rung on the educational ladder. In this regard I look with great hope to the new junior certificate subject of technology. I wish to pay tribute to the inspectors and teachers who have pioneered the subject on to the curriculum and the examination system at junior certificate level. The subject has enormous potential and it must become a major educational instrument in the years to come. Even at this stage it is a proven success and it must now be made available in every post-primary school.

For some reason or other, we as a nation have always managed to have an inferiority complex about technological subjects. For some reason or other we have by and large shied away from technology. For our own sake we must become increasingly comfortable with technology. Good jobs in the future will increasingly depend on people who can put that knowledge to work. We have got to get across the message that low skills lead to low wages and low profits. The days of high-paying unskilled jobs are gone. Indeed this is one of the problems increasingly facing the Irish in the building sites in England. Schools will have to become high performance if we are to achieve the objective of ensuring that everybody who leaves Irish schools has a solid training and the know-how to make their way in the world. However, thousands of young people who leave school every decade are not competent to face the world. They have not had their skills and talents determined let alone developed by the system. Of course, there are far too many drop-outs.

One of the major problems is that many youngsters fail to see the relevance between what confronts them in the classroom and day-to-day living in the outside world. They do not believe that the lessons they are learning are connected to the real world or that they will in any way enhance their prospects of employment. A major gap in our system is that employers have never clearly spelt out for educators what they require from students or what students need to know to meet the requirements of the work place, particularly as we move away from the more traditional work to high tech work. Therefore, we need far more dialogue, contact exchange and interaction between employers and educationalists. At present the world of the employer and the world of the school are like ships in the night, passing each other and each using a different language, one using Morse Code and the other signalling by way of flags. We look, therefore, to the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges and the Regional Technical Colleges to develop a more integrated approach with industry. We again demand that these colleges be given the resources of which they have been starved up to now in order to do the important job assigned to them.

One of the biggest indictments of our education system is the big and increasing drop-out rate. From a social as well as an economic point of view we simply have got to keep our young population in school longer. It would be very interesting to establish whether any of the youngsters who stole and burned the cars, stoned the fire brigade crews and attacked the gardaí in Neilstown or Ballyfermot attended school last week. I doubt it very much. I also doubt if they see any connection whatever between education, learning and living. Every one of those youngsters probably has a high level of skills, talents, aptitudes and abilities, yet they are condemned to a self-perpetuating life of vandalism. I know people get rightfully hot under their collars and label them as this, that and the other, but the fact of the matter is that the system had failed them and society has failed them as a consequence. We are failing to develop the full academic and technical abilities of the poor, the disadvantaged and the minorities.

We need relevant, practical, attractive education, particularly in areas of high social disadvantage. This is the key social instrument to getting society in those areas back on an even keel. That means a practical relevant second-level structure and curriculum. It also means the establishment of a regional technical college in Dublin in order to take these people through to third level. One of the outstanding characterisations of the regional technical colleges in the povinces is the manner in which they have opened up access to all ranges of abilities and aptitudes. The range of post-leaving certificate and diplomas courses available are targeted to all ability categories. Dublin needs at least one new regional technical college as a matter of urgency. How much more socially progressive it would have been to use the £11.7 million wasted on Carysfort in the provision of a business college, on the building of a regional technical college in Dublin. I fully support training for business but if we want to produce many more Michael Smurfits and Dermot Desmonds, then the business sector should fund this training themselves.

The point has been made repeatedly that the Smurfit School of Business Studies would have gone ahead in Roebuck, in Belfield, for £5 million and would not have cost the taxpayer a single penny. It was a scandalous and a wrong decision — and I know the Minister in his first address to the Seanad defended it — particularly in the light of the Valuation Office's report last week of a £3.8 million estimate, to lash out £8 million of taxpayers' money for that facility and a further £3.7 million to refurnish it.

I welcome this Bill. I compliment the Minister, in his absence, and I wish him well in his portfolio of Education which is a difficult and challenging post. We will suspend judgment until we see how he performs but he has our good wishes in that regard. In this measure he is piloting through one of the most important developments in third level education we have seen in this country.

I support the Regional Technical Colleges Bill. I would like also to congratulate the Minister on his promotion and I have no doubt he will be successful in this post. I have watched him over the years, especially when he was an MEP, when with other party members he briefed us on developments in the EC and he had a very good grasp of the EC at that time. I pay tribute also, as did other speakers, to the regional technical colleges which have been a success. We have only to examine the Minister's speech and the statistics he gave us regarding the numbers and the increases, the level of training and the general acceptance of the very high standards by those employers who take on graduates from those colleges. There has been substantial movement from the academic to the technical and vocational field and now we are getting the right mix.

Reference was made in the Minister's speech to the freedom to expand the college facilities and to allow them to have links with the local democratic structures. This is very important in the vocational field. There are a number of areas about which I would be concerned. For example, when the national development plan was being drawn up about three years ago, sub-region number six of which my constituency is part, the working group and the advisory group which were representative of practically every facet of the community — the Congress of Trade Unions, the Irish Farmers' Organisation, the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association, the Co-operative Organisation and Macra na Feirme — made a recommendation in relation to educational training. They recommended measures which would take advantage of existing educational expertise in the region and which had the potential to strengthen indigenous industry and to promote enterprise and development. They mentioned three areas: a precision engineering centre at Sligo Regional Technical College, a regional telecommunications and information technology centre at Letterkenny Regional Technical College and a quality assurance laboratory associated with the fish processing industry. They recommended also a centre of further education in the Cavan-Monaghan area to develop a range of post-second level education and training programmes geared to local industry and services and enterprise development; centres for the dissemination of European languages and a forestry technology centre for Sligo Regional Technical College. This is something we welcome.

A centre geared to local industry and services would be worthwhile but, unfortunately, it has not been set up and I do not think there are any plans to have it implemented. Twelve months to the day following the announcement on 21 November 1990 I put down a question to the Minister for written reply asking when it was proposed to provide the training centre. I was told there was a range of post-second level training programmes already in place in the region. It did not satisfy me or anybody else in the region that that recommendation was not proceeded with.

The Cavan College for further studies has been an outstanding success and the Cavan Vocational Education Committee provide some third level courses. As recently as last week the chief executive officer of the Monaghan Vocational Education Committee said he proposed a new centre which would be closely linked to the needs of future development of local industry including furniture manufacture, food processing, agricultural cooperatives as well as other educational and local needs. He said this proposal grew out of the success of the committee's post-leaving certificate courses. He proposed that an expert consultant be appointed to develop the proposal. While this is desirable it is not what we had asked for or expected. In that region there were suitable buildings which were formerly used by the Army before they moved to the new Cavan military barracks and we were disappointed that project was not proceeded with.

It is important that facilities be geared to the needs of the area. Practically every region has traditional areas of development and manufacturing which require those facilities. For example, there were many people employed in the footwear industry in the post-war years but now in excess of 90 per cent of our footwear is imported and most of those factories have closed down. The furniture manufacturing was one of a number of success stories over the years in Monaghan. In this area there are almost 1,000 people employed in furniture making. Through the efforts of the IDA in research and development and in new product development they have now built up a massive export market with a number of very efficient firms in the county. No further development can take place in either woodwork or steelwork without the involvement of the vocational education committees and the colleges. In the food processing industry where there are in excess of 1,000 people at work, there is a need for continuous courses on food hygiene to be held in vocational education committees.

We should make more use of the available education facilities across the Border. One of the best ways in which to develop goodwill and improve community relations is for counties adjacent to the Border to avail of those facilities. There should be co-operation between the two sides and the facilities could be developed further.

From time to time we hear about a scarcity of particular skills. Over the years people have complained to me about the scarcity of qualified diesel mechanics. It makes one think that there is not proper co-ordination between the regional technical colleges and the vocational education committees to ensure a continuing supply of people for these trades. Most of the regional technical colleges and vocational education committees have plenty of students who would be prolific in these areas.

I welcome the recent announcement of EC funding under the Leader Programme which has accepted the Cavan-Monaghan plan. I hope the proposal for a third level education centre for the Cavan-Monaghan area will be acted upon.

On the occasion of the first visit of the Minister for Education to the House since his appointment I wish him well. It is an exciting time to take over the Education portfolio. I am sure the Minister will give it his full endeavour for however long his period of office lasts.

I am aware that a number of speakers wish to speak before 7 o'clock, so I will make my remarks brief. I will address the general thrust of the Bill and will point to some areas about which I am specifically concerned. If the Minister has an opportunity when replying I trust he will refer to my queries.

I am aware of the importance of regional colleges because of the college in my home town. The colleges are a very important part of the infrastructure in towns such as Tralee, Waterford, Limerick and so on. It is of major importance to Deputies in those constituencies which have colleges, that the colleges are seen to be well funded and to have the support of the Government and all parties in relation to the important roles they play in the towns and counties where they are located.

I agree it is necessary to put the colleges on a statutory basis but I am not sure that the Bill achieves what the former Minister stated as being its objective, to improve the overall governance of colleges, to clarify matters in relation to administration and to deal with the responsiveness of the colleges to the world in which we live. The Bill is riddled with confusion between the role of the college and the role of the Minister. That must be addressed on Committee Stage. The Minister will have the opportunity during the debate to outline why the Minister for Education and, indeed, the Minister for Finance in many situations have to have such a hands-on role in relation to the operation of the colleges. Of the nine functions given to the colleges, other than the minimal function of accepting gifts, all are subject to the direct intervention of the Minister. I am not sure that it is in the interests of education, of the development of education or of the development of colleges that the Minister has such control. Such a degree of control is unnecessary and undesirable. This control should rightly be placed in the governing body of the institution.

Some of the provisions in the Bill strike me as being interference with the role of the academic council. The powers of the academic council in relation to the recommendations they can make to the governing body on the selection, retention or exclusion of students are areas in which the academic council and the governing body should have authority without the necessity of reverting back to the Minister or being subject to the requirements as set out from time to time by the Minister.

In terms of the regional colleges, the Bill leaves the colleges without the degree of autonomy which these institutions as third level colleges should have. It is undermining the colleges to some extent to be unprepared to give them the autonomy which they should have.

Another part of the Bill which has not been clarified relates to continuing education, the functions of regional technical colleges in relation to continuing education or in terms of higher education. That is not clarified in the interpretation section either. Will the Minister refer to it and more succinctly clarify it than has been done to date?

I would not oppose the Bill for the sake of opposition but there must be a question mark as to the timing of its introduction, given the challenges facing the new Minister and the promised publication of the Green Paper. Given the importance of regional colleges in the overall education policy, I would have thought that we should have waited for the Green Paper. There is a danger that we are about to embark on giving the regional colleges a statutory base and some powers may not be given now which may be shown to be necessary in the Green Paper. It would have been more workman-like to wait until the debate on the Green Paper has taken place.

All parties in the House will want to make a contribution on the Green Paper in the context of the development of education and setting out the fundamentals of education for, perhaps, well in to the next century. That is the major challenge facing the Minister for Education. If there are to be changes in the structure of local educational authorities, and this has been at least hinted at in recent years in terms of the role of the vocational education committees, their structure and their reorganisation, we would have been better to deal with that in the Green Paper rather than having a stab at it now in these Bills. At one stage we were informed that the Green Paper was to be published in December but, obviously, the Minister is entitled to time to have a look at the Green Paper, at the structures, the philosophy and the control of education. The debate on all these areas of education is eagerly awaited by people involved in the teaching professions, in the administration of education and by educators in every institution in this country. It is unfortunate in some respects that we are now outlining this new structure for the regional colleges at a time when we could be looking at the structures in the context of the overall debate.

Obviously the colleges will play a major role in the education process in this country. In the generality of education there are still some glaring omissions and inadequacies and I would have thought that we would have to address those in the context of the role of the colleges and, indeed, of the necessity for more regional colleges.

There are two areas which are worthy of mention and which are hard to address in the context of a Bill which is merely giving the existing colleges statutory status but which need to be addressed. One is the level of qualifications where it appears that we, in Ireland, are doing quite badly in relation to our colleagues in the European Community. The figures show that whereas 13 per cent of Irish persons are graduating with a degree or other academic qualification, the corresponding figure in Britain is 22 per cent and France 55 per cent. That would indicate that we have a long way to go to be on a par with our European colleagues.

The second matter which would have to be addressed in the generality of the debate on education would be access to education, and access to higher levels of education is particularly bad. It is something we all have responsibility for and we have had major failures in breaking down the barriers and getting better access to the higher education institutions for children of less well off parents. The figures are quite glaring in this area. The children of class A parents have a 35 times better opportunity of getting into third level education than the children of unskilled working class parents. Of all the areas in education, resources, the curriculum or anything else, the question of access is one the Minister should give particular attention to. Obviously it is more relevant to the provision of a Green Paper than to a Bill which merely deals with the statutory establishment of the regional colleges.

An aspect that appears in the recent review of the curricula of the regional colleges is the commitment to the liberal arts. Because of specialisation and the necessity for specialisation, arts generally, and the liberal arts in particular, seem to be neglected in the curriculum for third level education, whereas 40 or 50 years ago, when there was far less pressure in education for many reasons, liberal arts seemed to form a part of all professional education. In the context of reviewing the curricula for regional colleges, I would like to see liberal arts getting a more pronounced direction as an integral part of scientific and technical education. There is no reason this should not be the case.

The question of the economic development of this country is central to the role of the regional colleges. We can break down the role on a college by college basis but obviously on the question of economic development and partnership between the local community and the college, we must look at the development of enterpreneurial skills, business administration, marketing, engineering and the applied sciences to ensure that our graduates have better skills and more relevant degrees in the context of the marketing which has to be done. In a country like ours which is particularly orientated to exporting, if we do not have the basic skills we will not be competitive, we will not get to the marketplace and consequently we will not create the jobs this country so badly needs.

If we get the partnership right, an aspect of this Bill I welcome which has been long overdue is the granting of entitlement to the colleges to engage in research in co-operation with local industry. I believe that one of the very frustrating aspects for local employers and for industry around this country is the way everything has to revert back to Dublin in terms of the research skills available. Obviously State bodies such as Eolas and others will have to be, broadly speaking, Dublin located but there are high levels of skills available in the science and engineering departments of these colleges and it is absolutely necessary that these skills should be applied at local level, obviously at minimum cost but with maximum efficiency. That is a very welcome part of this Bill and one which is overdue.

Some aspects of the Bill worry me, for example, section 11 (1) (a), (b) and (c) of the Regional Technical College Bill in the context of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act which passed through this House in 1988, and the duties imposed by that Act on employers. Perhaps the Minister could have a look at these two Acts and inform me if he feels they are consistent because I would be worried that employers would not be able to fulfil the requirements of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 1989, in the context of the provisions of section 11 of the Regional Technical College Bill. It certainly warrants some clarification.

The duties of the employer are very specific in the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act. I find it difficult to reconcile the duties, which are fairly straightforward in terms of references to conditions of employment, which should be in the hands of the employer. I wonder if it is possible, in the context of the powers of the Minister to reconcile them with the provisions of the prior Act. That is something the Minister could have a look at. If he is not in a position to reply today, we could certainly have a look at it on Committee Stage. I highlight it because I believe there is a possibility, if not a probability, of inconsistency between the provisions.

Also in relation to the provisions of the Bill, the functions which lie with the new governing body — for example, the advertising of posts, the interview selection process and the payment of salaries — the employer, the vocational education committee, is only entitled to access to such reports as the governing body are obliged to provide for the department. These reports come at the end of the year so that effectively the vocational education committee will not know what is going on inside a college in the course of the 12 months.

The new part-time workers legislation and the employment equality legislation refer to the employer specifically. The question I would put to the Minister is how can the vocational education committee monitor the implementation of these Bills where they do not have direct access to the information required and there is no direct reporting on an ongoing basis? There is a possibility that a case could end up before a Department of Labour tribunal and the vocational education committee in question would not have any prior notice; the first time they would be informed of the problem before the tribunal is, in fact, when they receive a summons from the tribunal. I am not sure if that is what the Minister has in mind, and perhaps he could clear that up.

Likewise the Bill would appear to allow the individual colleges, if they so desired, to lay down conditions of employment or rates of pay. Is this what the Department of Education and the Minister have set out to do? How will a vocational education committee know how to regulate the correct rates of pay and how will they know that they are being applied? Is there a generality in relation to grades throughout the country?

The Bill undermines the conciliation and arbitration machinery which I think we all accept has stood the test of time, particularly in the vocational education committee sector. There is a danger that that conciliation and arbitration machinery will now be placed in limbo. I would like to see this matter clarified and to have answered the questions I have raised, including the question of whether these Bills can be reconciled with previous legislation such as the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 1989, the legislation dealing with part-time workers and with employment equality, which is of particular importance in this area.

We have been informed for quite a long time that the Bill sets out to give autonomy to the colleges in the day-to-day management and to allow them to become involved in research and development and consultancy work in the industrial and commercial sectors. Obviously, these are aspects of the Bill which I would welcome but, unfortunately, while the Minister gives on the one hand, he takes away, on the other hand the ultimate responsibility for admission, academic courses and financial control. I would like to hear the Minister's reasons for this. Are there strong reasons? Do we not have confidence in the capability of the colleges, as they exist, to administer these important aspects and to carry out their day-to-day responsibilities and roles? We should be expanding and giving responsibility to these colleges and ensuring that they operate in a more localised way. Unfortunately, these are not the tenets that I see in the Bill and I believe there are many aspects of it that we will need to take a long, hard look at.

I am not sure — and perhaps the Minister will address this matter also — if a particular timetable has been set or if there is a possibility that the Green Paper on education will be published before these Bills are enacted or will the Minister press ahead and seek early enactment of these Bills. There are good intentions in the Bill but, unfortunately, the Bill dealing with the regional technical colleges falls far short of what was intended originally. The regional technical colleges, as an instrument in the education brief, are far too important for us to get it wrong. As things stand at present, there is a danger that we will make many errors on this Bill.

Some assurances will be given in relation to what we can achieve on Committee Stage. The Labour Party will table many amendments on Committee Stage and we may be able to make an input, depending on the receptivity of the Minister to our suggestions. The new Minister will probably be receptive and will want the best to come out of the House given that the Bills, as I said, deal with what will be an important aspect of the education brief in the future both nationally and locally in terms of the role the colleges play in the regions. We must take cognisance of the pressures the regions are under at this time.

We will be opposing the Second Stage of the Bill but given that the two major parties in the House are supporting it we hope that on Committee Stage we will be able to make constructive amendments in an effort to make it better than it is at present.

I welcome this opportunity to speak on the Bill but before I do let me congratulate the new Minister for Education on his appointment. I have the utmost confidence in his ability to discharge the onerous responsibilities of the Minister for Education and I wish him every success in his new role. I also wish to pay tribute to the previous Minister for Education, Deputy O'Rourke, for the manner in which she conducted and looked after the affairs of the Department of Education during her tenure as Minister.

As I said, I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill and my remarks will be directed mainly towards the role and functions of the regional technical colleges with which I am more familiar. I commend the previous Minister for introducing this welcome legislation and for the manner in which she sought advice, consulted and took on board a number of recommendations made to her during the negotiations and in drafting these two Bills. I also compliment her for stating during the course of her speech on Second Stage that she would be willing to make amendments on Committee Stage if it was felt amendments were needed. I am sure the current Minister will bear the statements made by Deputy O'Rourke in mind.

The sixties saw a major thrust in the development of technical education in Ireland. This was initiated by the publication of the Investment in Education document in 1962 and the Training of Technicians in Ireland document in 1964. The then Minister for Education, Dr. Patrick Hillery, proposed the Government's intentions to arrange, with the various vocational education committees, for the provision of a limited number of technical colleges with regional status.

The present network of regional technical colleges was built between 1970 and 1977, and there is no doubt about the impact these colleges have had on the life of the regions in which they were established. I must acknowledge the efforts made by public representatives, by County Carlow Vocational Education Committee and, in particular, by the then chief executive officer, Mr. Austin Waldron, to ensure that a regional technical college was sited in Carlow.

The provision of these institutes in the various towns brings great life to the towns and regions in which they are located. The steering committee who advised the Minister in setting up these colleges broadly defined the role of these colleges as being to educate for trade and industry over a spectrum of occupations ranging from craft to professional, notably in engineering and science but also in the commercial, linguistic and other specialities.

The people who set up and took over at the helm at these institutes were pioneers in education. Their vigour and enthusiasm during the years has ensured that these institutes of education have now received recognition internationally as establishments which provide firstclass education. They have during the years consistently sought to increase the range of courses which they provide and have as a result on a yearly basis increased the number of students put through their colleges. From relatively humble beginnings when they offered leaving certificate courses and apprenticeships they now offer certificate, diploma and graduate courses and, in some cases, post-graduate courses.

It is worth noting at this stage that the regional technical colleges are 21 years old this year and during that relatively short span of time they have made a remarkable impression on our educational system. It would be fair at this stage to compliment all Ministers for Education for their generosity and support of this section of third level education during that time.

The timing of the provision of these regional technical colleges could not have been better. As the number of young people leaving secondary level education grew and the demand for third level education increased, these institutes were able to cater for that demand. Our international reputation as a country which looked after its young was enhanced by the quality of our young graduates and school leavers who sought employment in foreign countries. Their experience in these countries will, I hope, lead to an enhancement of the status of our young graduates.

Each college and vocational education committee should be complimented for the manner in which they have sought out funding, particularly from the European Regional Fund, for the development of their colleges and their particular courses. Every year one sees a new degree course being provided and new courses developed. Of late, as funding becomes increasingly more difficult to acquire, there is a slight slow down in the development of the various courses in some of these institutes.

The contribution that these colleges have made towards the education of our young school leavers is to be commended and the potential which these courses offer to young students is very much appreciated by the young people themselves and by their parents. The fact that they have never refused to increase the intake of students over the past number of years is testimony to the commitment to third level education of these colleges.

The Bill goes a long way towards striking a balance between greater freedom and autonomy for the institutes in their day-to-day operations while, at the same time, maintaining their links with the vocational education committees in their regions. It also constitutes a means by which these institutes can engage in development and consultancy work for business and industry as well as entering into contracts and assignments with companies to develop together the results of their work.

The flexibility of the courses which the Regional Technical Colleges provide play a vital role in the provision of highly skilled personnel which is essential to our evolving industrial economy. These institutes are also able to improve the interaction between business and educational establishments which is evidenced by the establishment of the CIM centre in Carlow with the provision of a full-time industrial liaison officer who liaises between industry, commerce and the regional college. This Bill seeks to retain the RTCs and Dublin Institute of Technology with the vocational education committee structure while establishing them as self-governing institutes. It provides a framework for the operation of the institutes subject to general policy and within the operational programme and budgets drawn up annually by the governing body subject to the approval of the appropriate vocational education committees and the Minister for Education.

It is important to pay tribute to the work of the vocational education committee under whose management the regional technical colleges have grown and developed. Under their guidance these colleges now have a framework in which they can enter a new phase of growth. The contribution by the staff of the colleges should not be overlooked, nor should the input of the National Council for Educational Awards which, over the years, have been very supportive and worked closely with the various colleges. Their flexibility in adapting to the changing needs and the continuing strong demand for their expanding range of awards has been a contributory factor to the success of these colleges.

The Bill as published goes a long way towards giving the institutes greater autonomy and freedom in the conduct of their day-to-day activity and to exploit the potential which they see in the educational and commercial sectors. If one was to be critical of the regional technical colleges my sole criticism is that their structures are dull and unimaginative. These colleges are the result of architectural thinking of 1969 and 1970 and, if they were being built today, they would be much warmer and appealing to the eye. When one compares these buildings to third level institutions such as Earlsfort Terrace, Trinity College and UCG, one can immediately see the difference in the design and thinking. Having said that, I hope in their own time and own way they will become easier to accept.

I will now digress slightly from the Bill to register my concern at the related role of vocational education committee in the appointment of teachers to various positions in schools within their control. This is an area of vocational education committee which has concerned me for some time. All appointments to teaching posts should be made by an independent body such as the Civil Service Commission. The composition of interview boards which select professional teachers for various positions should consist of individuals with the necessary qualifications and background in teaching, education or in the selection of teachers to ensure that there is not the slighest suspicion of favouritism. For too long, individual teachers have felt that their qualifications and experience in the educational area are not appreciated — or indeed recognised in some cases — by some of the individuals who currently sit on vocational education committee interview boards. Perhaps this matter can be dealt with in more detail when the new education Bill, promised by the Minister for Education, is published. It is an area to which the Minister should give attention.

I wish both these Bill every success and a speedy passage through the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I welcome Deputy Nolan's conversion to the thinking of this side of the House because it is only a short time since we brought in a Private Member's Bill to introduce some of the measures he suggested and against which he and his party voted.

At the outset, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate my colleague from South Tipperary, Deputy Davern, on his appointment as Minister for Education. I am confident that he has the ability and temperament to successfully conduct the business of this onerous, complex and difficult Ministry. I wish him well in his endeavours.

There can be little doubt that the regional technical colleges have been one of the great success stories on the Irish education scene in the past three decades. Part of this success stems from the fact that they fulfilled a long felt need for a third level education system which was not available through the existing university structure and which catered for that large segment of the student population for whom the university system did not provide the answer. The regional technical college provides the bridgehead between the manpower requirements of our growing, technologically-based industries of the seventies and eighties and the educational systems' ability to provide their students with the skills to take up the challenge. The colleges have succeeded in their task, thanks to the vision of the people who conceived the ideas and those who had the courage to implement them.

Our regional technical college network must form the basis for the way forward in the future; any legislation to be enacted which will affect the colleges must take cognisance of the history and the background to their advancement thus far and of the reasons for their success. In other words, I am saying that legislation in this instance must be very carefully drafted lest it damage the very thing it sets our to protect.

Like many of my colleagues in the House, and many educationalists outside it, I welcome the broad general thrust of the Bill, though I would share some of the reservations which have been expressed in regard to the apparent diminution of the role of the vocational education committees. However, this matter and, indeed, other aspects of the Bill have been critically analysed by several other speakers so, rather than be repetitive, I would like to concentrate on an aspect of the Bill which affects me personally in my capacity as a representative for North Tipperary and which, indeed, also has ramifications for the Minister himself. I refer to section 3 of the Bill which deals with the formal establishment of the colleges and with the provision which allows other educational establishments to be brought within the ambit of the Bill in future.

In this context, there is a strange irony in my speaking on this Bill here today representing as I do a constituency which had legitimate and carefully planned aspirations towards having a regional technical college within its bounds. In fact, not alone was it a constituency aspiration, but a county one. Seldom, if ever, has a subject united the people of Tipperary as the proposal to establish a regional college in Thurles. The Minister himself, as a former chairman of South Tipperary Vocational Education Committee, is thoroughly familiar with all aspects of our case and has on many occasions both privately and publicly, expressed his support for the concept of a third level college in Tipperary. Our case now presents the Minister with an early and invaluable opportunity to set a benchmark for the future thrust of third level education by recognising the validity of our case for a regional college in Thurles, based on a unique concept of rural and business development, and which caters in a very real way for a county which has suffered more than most from the ill fortunes of the economic recession.

This morning, before coming into the House, I looked again at the map of the country showing the location of the regional technical colleges and I was struck once again by the glaring blank space in the south midlands, in that area occupied principally by County Tipperary. The dots on the map representing the various towns where the colleges are located form the basis for an educational web, but a web which sadly, has no centre. That centre can, should and must be provided by giving to Thurles and to Tipperary the college it needs, the college it was promised and, above all else, the college which would form a perfect link in the educational chain. This is not a plea based on emotion and proposed on empty rhetoric; it is a plea based on the reasoned and carefully planned deliberations of all interested educational bodies in the county and put forward in the form of a well documented and excellently constructed proposal.

The idea for a third level college in Thurles has been mooted and pursued for a number of years now, and seemed to have reached fruition with the purchase of a site for the college in 1987, but then came a series of deliberately orchestrated setbacks with the result that there has been no departmental progress since then. The people who care, those who see this project as a major priority, have been working on the idea, refining and distilling their proposals to the point where we now have a concept which is original and innovative and which will form the basis of an entirely new approach to third level education.

Recognising that the regional approach was one of the key factors in the success of the regional technical colleges to date, the promoters of the college, which they have titled Tipperary Rural and Business Development Institute, have studied the needs of the region at large. What has emerged is the need for a rural development institute, emphasising community development, agriculture, forestry, alternative incomegenerating farm enterprises and technology transfer to rural Ireland. The institute would focus on making third level education accessible and relevant to the rural community. It would be accessible in physical terms through out-centres in second level schools. As part of their contracts, staff will have built into their terms of employment specific time for this "out-work" and there would be a series of bridging programmes to make third level education accessible to people who have not achieved the standard requirements for third level entry. This is perceived by the promoters as a significant gap in the present system and one which they intend filling.

Rural development is now a national and European priority, a fact which is recognised internationally. The main focus of the institute would be on creating and developing in the student body skills and an awareness to match existing and potential business needs. In some ways, we have a classical catch 22 situation in Tipperary in so far as we need to attract new industry but lack the core skills among our young people to provide a workforce. This is one of the prime needs which exists and which the institute proposes to fill.

I must stress the need to prevent further rural depopulation. Maybe it is overstating the obvious, but it is very valid. Rural Ireland is in serious decline and Tipperary is no different from any other region in that respect. It is a fact that in many areas of the country the ratio of young to old is altering radically on an almost daily basis and even among those young people who are in a position to remain, all too many of them are forced to travel far afield to further their education and, having done so, have then got no incentive to return. The institute would provide the framework for the exploration of new business ideas, the development of regional opportunities and the provision of supplementary income possibilities.

An EC study carried out last year on the future of rural society highlighted the risk that technological innovations are being concentrated on a small number of economic activities, to the detriment of rural society. A more sympathetic use of new technology in rural development is now imperative and, recognising this, the institute would place special emphasis on information technology and the application of technological advances to farm work, such as for example "Airtel Agriline", in addition to using computers for the monitoring of crops and animals. The institute would be planned in such a way that the mix of programmes in Thurles would adapt to changing national needs and demographic trends. The existing resources provided by Shannon Development, Teagasc, local industry and services would be used as strategic arms to develop existing business and to attract new industry.

How is all this to be achieved and where does it fit into the picture being framed by this Bill? I would like to place on the record of this House the purpose of the proposal for a third-level college in Tipperary, the programmes envisaged in those proposals, the operating procedures, staffing levels, management structures and linkages with other educational establishments. As will be seen, this is not a proposal for a college to stand in splendid isolation but a college which would enmesh itself into the fabric of life, both town and village, and which would fulfil in a manner not thought of up to now, the principles which motivated the foundation of the regional college system in the first place.

The mission of the institute, therefore, would be to provide full time and part time third level education programmes oriented towards employment in rural business, to point the way forward for future national measures which would use appropriate technology and enhance our lives and our environment. These programmes would be tailored to meet the needs of people and business in rural areas and the institute would provide a blueprint for new third level education strategies for the 21st century which would give practical expression to the ideals enshrined in the EC document, "The Future of Rural Society". That is how the institute see their mission. The putting into practice of these aspirations is something which has received the undivided attention of a great many educationists in the country over the past few years.

In regard to their operating principles, the institute would be open 14 hours a day for 360 days a year. This radical step is the first measure of the determination of the proposers of the institute to make it physically accessible to the student body at all times and to make it living and vibrant. The courses would be flexible and student oriented, geared towards employment and maintaining close links with industry and Government agencies.

Education would be used as a vehicle for development and to maintain a forward looking profile at all times. The institute staff would have continuing education as part of their contractual brief, as well as being required to assess rural development needs on an on-going basis by way of close contact with community organisations. The development of student skills would be enhanced by having work placements during their study term as in the VPT model.

This would be seen as another aid to fostering strong links with existing businesses and industry and would act as a medium for cross-pollination of ideas and innovations. The out-centres of which I spoke earlier would be the spokes in the educational wheel whereby the institute would deliver their programmes to the client and to the potential student, forming what one might term a floating campus, providing a feeder service for the greater body of the institute.

The title of the institute incorporates the ethos envisaged by their promoters, the main focus of the institute being perceived as being on rural business and rural development, these being unified by the common concern for technology transfer. The programmes would be delivered through full time education of the student body and through the continuing education of those who would use the institute to develop and enhance skills garnered in the work place or on the farm.

There are five broad areas for which the programmes would cater. The first is in the business area, which would include agri-business, forestry, marketing, accounting and general business practices and which would provide a sound framework for the progression of the student into other related areas. The second base of the programmes would be in engineering, a discipline which is envisaged as catering for food production, agricultural, engineering, electronics and construction. This section makes practical sense because of the long tradition of food and agriculture related businesses in Tipperary generally and in north Tipperary in particular.

The depredations wreaked on the town of Thurles by the devastation of the sugar industry has been well documented and has been spoken of in this House on many occasions. The town has not recovered from the trauma brought about by the sugar factory closure. I see here an opportunity for reparation, a chance for the sugar industry to return to the town some of the dignity which it stripped away from it and to repay some of the terrible price it wreaked by removing the town's most tangible asset. I call on the sugar company to throw their full weight behind the proposal to establish a college in Thurles but, more than that, to give practical expression to that proposal by offering to finance the faculty of food production by an endowment. The sugar company are engaged in food production. They have a valued and valuable food processing plant in the town in their Erin Food subsidiary. What more practical expression of their goodwill towards the town could they make than by offering financial assistance in the establishment of a third-level college which would benefit not just the town but the whole region served by the college? Such a step forward might well encourage greater participation in serving educational needs by the larger companies and industries who have much to gain from a thriving, vibrant educational network.

The third base of the proposed programmes is a natural progression of the one just described, covering as it does the broad spectrum of science and, more specifically, food processing technology, natural resources technology, agricultural science, chemistry, biology and environment. All of these have particular relevance in regard to future trends in agri-business, with the increasing emphasis on the need for environmental controls.

The fourth base of the programme is one which has particular relevance for the county at present. It covers the area of humanities and has as one of its aims the imparting of skills in local concerns, the appreciation of and approach to mental handicap being one of them. I am aware that County Tipperary lags some way behind other regions in the provision of an infrastructure for the treatment and care of mental handicap and is able to cope only because the statutory services are augmented by a huge voluntary input, an input matched by financial contribution from all the parents involved, again on a voluntary basis. This aspect of the programme would bring about a change in attitudes, a greater understanding of the needs of the individual and the responsibilities of the community. The humanities programme would also incorporate the study of languages, including Irish, and the study of local history, so necessary if the course is to have real application to the needs of the community.

The fifth base of the programme is in the area of continuing education. Even a cursory study of countrywide trends indicates that there is a growing demand for education from those who have left second level but who chose, for whatever reason, not to continue to third level. This demand will be catered for by the institute by the provision of one-year courses which would include industrial design, computer-aided design and receptionist skills. It is envisaged that post-leaving certificate students would comprise a significant proportion of the overall attendance at the college and that they would represent an important segment in the transmission of ideas and needs from community to college and vice versa.

As a corollary to this broad base of programmes, the institute would promote a more systematic use of new technology in rural development by means of information technology, and subsequently translating that into the practical application of technology in a "hands-on" situation in farming. Coupled with this would be the provision of a focal point for EC programmes in rural technology such as the industry-education interaction and rural communications technology programmes.

With regard to continuing education, it is now recognised that this helps people to cope with change and there is a noticeable international demand for education from those who have left the education system. Coping with that demand forms an essential part of the national strategy in many advanced economies and one of the most important criteria in the success of continuing education is accessibility — the convenience of location to the student. The institute itself and the proposed use of "out-centres" will solve this problem. These "out-centres" would be provided in the second level schools in the institute's catchment area and courses in business and enterprise, applied science and environment, engineering, technology and community development would be offered there. In addition, the teaching staff would act as advisers or counsellors for local enterprises in the community, out of which would spring further courses suggested by people in the community.

Another important facet of this aspect of the institute would be the upgrading of business skills within existing enterprises through the solution of practical problems, the provision of follow-up counselling and by being accessible to the people taking the course.

In order to provide all these programmes the institute would have a broad spectrum of staff. There would be full-time staff with the appropriate qualifications for teaching at third level. Arrangements would be made with Shannon Development and Teagasc for the part-time secondment of staff with appropriate qualifications and experience; it may even be envisaged that Shannon Development could have a full-time business development officer on campus. There would also be part-time staff drawn from local industry and business.

There is a very representative and wide ranging corpus of statutory and voluntary organisations to provide the framework of the management structure, among them being the Department of Education, the Office of Science and Technology, Shannon Development, Teagasc, North Tipperary and South Tipperary Vocational Education Committee's, voluntary secondary schools, churches, industry, trade unions and others. As part of the overall linkage with the broader framework of third level education, the institute would adopt as a matter of policy a programmed approach to linking with the other institutions in the area, including the University of Limerick, University Colleges Cork and Galway, the Garda Training College, Templemore, the College of Art, Commerce and Technology, Limerick, Thomond College, Rockwell Agricultural College, Gurteen Agricultural College, St. Patrick's Diocesan College, Thurles, and others.

The proposal to establish a Tipperary rural and business development institute is well researched. It identifies and articulates a unique concept and educational requirement, as well as catering for the economic and educational needs of the area. The institute would contribute to providing further badly needed third level places for students in Ireland. I would earnestly ask my distinguished fellow Tipperary colleague who now occupies the office of Minister for Education to give this proposal priority, to exercise his ministerial authority to advance its cause and to help us to bring our plans to fruition.

While all of what I have just said may sound like a local issue in the context of the Bill under discussion, I feel that the point must nonetheless be made. It is important for us all that the advances made in Irish third level education in the past three decades should be continued and enhanced. I believe this Bill is a significant and worthwhile step on the road to doing so, just as I passionately believe that the proposals in the Tipperary rural and business development institute plan are not only vital to the well being of my area, but may well prove vital to the future of the whole concept of regional colleges in Ireland. Those are my thoughts on section 3 of the Bill and the way it affects current events in the development of regional colleges.

As I mentioned already, I welcome the Bill in broad terms. I believe it seeks to give greater autonomy to the colleges, and this is a good feature. The success of the colleges is partly attributable to their adaptability to the needs of their regions and in order to be able to do this, the managements of the individual colleges must be free to make independent decisions based on measured and quantified local requirements. I believe the Bill is doing this by devolving authority to the colleges themselves.

It would also seem from this that the Bill will effectively sever the direct link between the vocational education committee and the college by transferring the powers not delegated to the colleges directly to the Department of Education. This would certainly assist the colleges to conform to the regional concept rather than the local mandate imposed by existing legislation. But let me caution, there is an ongoing body of experience in the vocational education sector and this should form an integral part of the advisory body to both the Minister and the college management. For example in section 6, it should be made clear that the regional nature of the college should be reflected in the composition of the governing body.

It has been said that development in higher education can, and often does, presage political and administrative change in society in general. The regional technical college system is an example of now successful the decentralisation of educational opportunity can be. If it is used as the role model for future progress and for the sensible blancing of local, regional and national interests, then the long term benefits could be very great indeed. When we look at the figures for student enrolment in regional technical colleges we find that an average 80 per cent of the students come from within the region of each college. This more than anything else highlights the regional nature of the colleges and the need for care in restructuring the system.

The governing body of any educational establishment should, of its very nature, reflect the academic status of that establishment but in this context should also take cognisance of regional needs and achievements. This requires awareness of commercial and industrial enterprise in the region in order to maintain the socio-economic balance which is vital to future progress.

It is a fact, regrettable but nonetheless real, that access to third level education for many students from the lower socioeconomic backgrounds is not a realisable proposition and this must be of concern. It is an area in which the national colleges have a major part to play. Just over 50 per cent of third level enrolments each year are in the non-university sector and this figure is likely to increase in the future. With a properly structured approach the regional technical colleges are in a unique position to feel the pulse of educational requirement in a regional basis and to ensure that individual groups or segments of society do not get left behind. They can do this by remaining close to their roots, to the people and the students of their own regions.

The regional technical colleges are a major component in the broad spectrum of Irish education. This Bill should consolidate that position but we should be aware of the concerns being voiced by various groups about individual sections in the Bill.

In conclusion, I am very pleased to have heard this morning that Mr. John Slattery, Chief Executive Officer of South Tipperary Vocational Education Committee has been seconded by the Minister to work in the Department of Education. I offer my good wishes to Mr. Slattery coupled with my hope that his professed desire for a college in Thurles will now be allied to the expertise of the Minister in providing a real Tipperary flavour to the next regional college to be added to the list in the First Schedule to this Bill.

To pick up where Deputy Lowry left off, if there is to be a real Tipperary flavour it may be a little further south than Thurles. However, that would be the nature of politics in Ireland.

I wish to take this opportunity to welcome Deputy Davern as Minister for Education. He brings with him years of political experience and skill, all of which I know will be tested in the Department of Education as he tries to balance the conflicting demands that no doubt will be coming from all areas of the educational spectrum. I have no doubt that he will rise to the occasion and that he will go down in history as an excellent Minister for Education.

I also welcome the Bills in general. In fact, I have very few complaints with them, although there are one or two points that could perhaps be considered again on Committee Stage.

As mentioned earlier, it is 21 years since the regional technical colleges were founded. In that time there has been a revolution in education. Perhaps the title, "regional technical colleges" is a misnomer now since these institutions provide courses of national importance and draw students from all over Ireland. Their success is due mainly to the excellence of the staff of the colleges and to the type and variety of courses provided. The Galway Regional Technical College, to name but one, provides a practical course in art that encompasses nearly all levels of art from practical hands-on art work to fairly advanced sculpture and design work. That course is on a par with anything that can be provided by the NCAD and by many internationally known colleges.

My own constituency has three Dublin Institute of Technology colleges, at Bolton Street, Cathal Brugha Street and the College of Marketing and Design at Mountjoy Square. The latter was a rather late entry to the academic scene but Bolton Street and Cathal Brugha Street have been in existence for many years, originally starting as vocational schools for the development of skills in building and building design and in cuisine skills. Bolton Street college now provides a range of construction design courses from pure hands-on appenticeship courses in bricklaying and so on right up to architecture. Their school of architecture is internationally renowned. The position is similar for Cathal Brugha Street, which was called Coláiste Mhuire le Tíos when it was founded. These colleges might be regarded as the university of the travel business or the university of the tourism business, such is the range of courses provided by them.

It is appropriate that at this time the colleges be given more independence. It is the intent of the Bills to provide the colleges with the governing and administrative tools necessary for them to function as third level colleges while at the same time retaining them within the vocational education system. It is important that the vocational aspect of their work should not be lost sight of as they move towards a third level status.

While speaking of third level status, on Committee Stage, in relation to section 5 which deals with the functions of the institute and the provision for them to confer, grant or give diplomas, certificates or other educational awards but not degrees, we should consider including degree awards. If the colleges are to be raised to third level status, why should they not be able to award degrees?

That is right, a balance.

Every other third level institution does so. I personally do not recognise any reason that the colleges should not award degrees. I hope this matter will be considered on Committee Stage in more detail. Though it may be a minor point, it is important for the self-respect of the colleges concerned and for the self-respect of the graduates of those colleges.

There is one third level college in Dublin that is often overlooked yet has probably the biggest single group of students. I refer to the College of Music which, at any one time, caters for roughly 2,000 students. The College of Music could be the basis, if it were developed properly, to what I would call a college of the performing arts. In Dublin we have colleges teaching film, other colleges teaching drama and we have four publicly funded colleges teaching music — UCD, Trinity, the Royal Irish Academy of Music and the College of Music — not to mention private colleges around the city. A college of performing arts, as I would envisage it, would encompass not just the performers but also those who would go on to work in television and radio — people involved with sound effects and visual effects and those involved with stage design, etc. Why not have those people under one roof if at all possible? I know that would be a major undertaking, but every party in the House pay lip service — I do not mean that in a denigratory way — to developing the talent of our young people coming through the system. As I see it, though I may be open to correction, one of the great talents of the Irish people is their artistic talent. However, an artist has to fight against the odds to develop in this country. There is no encouragement, good, bad or indifferent. Perhaps when the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill and the Regional Technical Colleges Bill are passed the Department of Education could set up a task force to examine the development of the performing arts. So far as I know, the only regional technical college offering courses in the performing arts is the college in Waterford. That college has a school of music which is doing great work in training performers. The Royal Irish Academy of Music, Trinity College and the Dublin College of Music have been talking about such courses for years and I gather that they set up a degree course for teaching musicians, a B.Mus. teaching degree, but they are still talking about setting up a performing degree. Perhaps the Minister would give them a nudge and ensure some movement in that area.

The vocational education committee have a site in Seán McDermott Street which, I gather, will not be used for the purpose originally intended. Perhaps it could be designated as a site for a college for the performing arts. Many years ago, and great credit is due to them for this, the Department of Education set up the National College of Art and Design in the old Power's Distillery. I do not intend any pun when I say that that has become a powerhouse of artistic thought. Yet another distillery, which I gather is owned by the Office of Public Works at the moment, Jameson's in Smithfield, is derelict but it is a large site that could, again, be developed as a college for the performing arts. Other Members have dealt with the Bill in greater detail and have greater overall knowledge of education and our educational establishments.

The provisions of section 9 cater for the appointment of a director rather than a principal of each regional technical college, the existing principal to become the first director, which is as it should be. Perhaps we could examine on Committee Stage the appointment of a director. The job of the director of any national institute — which is what the regional technical colleges are becoming — is so demanding their appointment should be for a limited period of, say, seven years, under a contract of service rather than an open ended contract to retirement age of 65. It should be remembered that these colleges will demand of their directors a 24-hour hands-on commitment. In fact, their role could be compared with that of the Master of a maternity hospital in Dublin, when he or she is appointed for a period of seven years, paid a large salary but is in total financial, academic and clinical control of their hospital. Dublin maternity hospitals have been at the forefront of maternity medicine for over 250 years which I contend is due in no small measure to the method of appointment of their chief executive or director, otherwise known as the Master. It is a method of appointment that has withstood the test of time.

I wonder whether there is a case to be made for the stablishment of what might be described as a national academic selection board who would vet and recommend appointments above a certain level to the regional technical colleges in that henceforth the appointment of staff will necessitate a degree of sophistication and cohesion. I ask the Minister to examine that possibility.

It would appear there is a major change being introduced in section 2 (2) in that a college, with the approval of the Minister along with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, can decide the terms and conditions of holding office or employment. That provision is not confined merely to new staff but includes existing staff. In theory that provision could lead to different terms and conditions of employment in different colleges, and indeed in different schools within the same college. Perhaps we could examine that section on Committee Stage. One might well ask, are we to have a plethora of colleges under the control of the Department of Education stipulating different guidelines and terms of employment to the same type of staff? Are we initiating competition between different regional technical colleges? That may be a theoretical possibility but, once written into the Bill, it could become a practical possibility.

I welcome both Bills. They were needed and will afford the Dublin Institute of Technology and regional technical colleges greater scope for development becoming even more a focus of growth in the cities, towns and counties in which they are located. Overall, these Bills provide the governing and administrative tools necessary to these colleges to function as third-level colleges to the greater benefit of students generally.

I am calling Deputy Garland. I understand there is a sensible agreement among those Members who have been waiting patiently to divide the remaining time, that is, approximately eight to nine minutes each.

I will endeavour to honour that commitment to the best of my ability.

While grateful to the former Minister for a lucid summary of the development of vocational and technical education here her claim to recognise its maturity does not carry conviction. For example, she says that, in the 21 years since the regional technical colleges were established, they have developed to the stage at which they can truly be said to have come of age.

These Bills represent, in a symbolic sense the key usually associated with such an event. Anyone who has read the Bills must feel that this is a key being handed over with the instructions: Of course, you understand, my child, that you must give me back this key every night at 10 o'clock and I shall return it to you in the morning. In other words, the tradition of underestimating any education labelled technical dies hard. Whether we revert to 1889 or 1930, whether we refer to vocational schools or technical colleges the general opinion held was that students attending them — at least day pupils — were regarded as those who were not quite up to the serious academic work of real schools. The general opinion held was that when a student had reached third-level he or she might obtain a scholarship to university. I am happy to recall at least one student who was offered such a scholarship 20 years ago but who preferred to remain in Bolton Street once he knew he could continue his studies just as if he held a university degree.

The schools now more likely to be called community colleges are undertaking the same good work they used do under another name, that is picking up the children who where short-changed by an overcrowded primary system, giving them the means and confidence to deal with the leaving certificate, hopefully polished off by third-level. I regret that, to some extent, these colleges have been swallowed up by the traditional academic leaving certificate. Nonetheless they balance this with equipment and instruction that enable pupils to help build and maintain the structures on which we all depend. As the Minister said, the development of the regional technical colleges over the years has seen a phasing out of apprentice training and increased involvement in diploma and degree level courses. At present the vocational education committee third level colleges have approximately 40 per cent of the total enrolment at third level nationwide.

While the Green Party, in general, welcome these Bills, nonetheless we are disappointed at the degree of centralisation they contain. Decentralisation is a concept with which everybody in this House would agree. From time to time I have heard Members of every party in this House say what we have been saying for a very long time, that is, decisions should be taken at the lowest effective level, in other words, supporting the principle of subsidiarity which is manifestly absent from these Bills. Rather, the dead hand of the Department of Education is to be seen throughout. I appeal to the Minister to challenge the mandarins in his Department, to ensure that power devolves where it rightly belongs, that is, with the vocational education committees and the principals and staff of the schools. The vocational education committees nationwide have overseen and taken part in this organic evolution and have acquired expert knowledge. It is absurd they should not be considered competent to decide when some other educational institution has reached the stage at which it should be considered a college but rather must wait until "the Minister considers" the time has come to consult the Minister for Finance and the relevant vocational education committee.

I cannot help remarking that in section 3 (2) of the Regional Technical College Bill, 1991 and some following sections "Minister" appears in capital letters but the vocational education committees do not. We contend that the words "Minister considers" should be amended to read:

"Vocational Education Committee recommends" and we will be tabling an amendment to that effect on Committee Stage.

Throughout section 5 we discover that the regional technical colleges may only provide courses of study, engage in research, enter into arrangements with other institutions, exploit any research, consultancy or development work "subject to such conditions as the Minister may determine". This is another area in which we will be tabling an amendment on Committee Stage. Of course the colleges must welcome greater scope to exploit research and so on, but permission to do so under unknown conditions which may be laid down by some unknown Minister at some unpredictable time does not match the autonomy appropriate to institutions which have come of age. It is not acceptable that the Dublin Institute of Technology should be permitted only to give diplomas and educational awards other than degrees. I understand that the constituent colleges have been awarding degrees by means of a linkage with Trinity College. Surely this should end.

I congratulate Deputy Davern on his elevation to the office of Minister for Education and I wish him well.

I welcome the opportunity of addressing the house on the Second Stage of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill, 1991, and the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill, 1991.

It is very appropriate that, as many of our regional colleges celebrate 21 years of providing third level education, we should be debating a Bill which will give recognition to the tremendous expansion of student numbers, courses, services, and the expertise available in these colleges, and give them the framework for further expansion and autonomy. The 28,000 students attending these colleges are a testimony to the important role which they have in equipping our young people to fulfil their ambitions and enable them to take their place in society.

The regional colleges were set up in the late sixties and early seventies to fill a vaccum in the field of technical education. We were at that time preparing to enter into and play our part in a modern Europe. If we were to become at least partially industrialised we needed to fill the gap in the provision of expertise in the field of technology. The phenomenal success and dramatic growth of these colleges is ample proof that they fulfilled the expectations.

The regional colleges were set up under the 1930 Vocational Education Act and were thus under the control of the vocational education committee in their area. Each college had its own board of management, which was a sub-committee of the County Vocational Education Committee. Decisions taken by this board of management had to be verified by the vocational education committee.

I want to pay tribute to the various vocational education committees who undertook, about 20 years ago, to enter into these unchartered educational waters. They provided the framework and mechanism for the establishment of our present-day colleges. It was with their blessing, guidance and enthusiasm that regional colleges developed so successfully and now account for almost 50 per cent of students at third level.

Everybody now acknowledges that the regional colleges of 1991 are very different from the fledglings which emerged in 1970. They have larger budgets, bigger staffs, much increased student numbers, a wider range of courses catering for the needs of business, industry and commerce. The legislation provided in the 1930 Vocational Education Act is no longer adequate to facilitate the many new developments in these colleges. The links with industry, the research and the development work and the possibility of being involved in limited companies will be developed on a firm legislative base.

At the time of the establishment of Athlone Regional Technical College, the midlands region was characterised by a high level of dependence on agriculture. Manufacturing activity was in its infancy and the existing textile industry was in decline. Bord na Móna had a thriving peat industry and, along with the ESB, provided a high level of apprenticeship training. There was a low level of participation in third level education.

It was in this atmosphere that Athlone regional college opened its doors in 1970 with a mere 36 full-time students. It now has an enrolment in excess of 2,200 full-time students and a staff of over 250. To cater for this huge increase in student and staff numbers, building extensions have been ongoing in the college life, and floor space is now 50 per cent more than the original.

To my mind Athlone regional college eptomises the ideal of a regional college. Situated at the gateway to the west, with a good number of large provincial towns within easy reach, it is a natural focal point for surrounding counties. This is reflected in the enrolment at the college for the year 1990-91, which shows that 15 per cent of students come from Westmeath; 5 per cent from Longford; 11 per cent from Offaly; 9 per cent from Roscommon; and 20 per cent from Galway. This geographical spread demonstrates clearly the important regional significance of this college to the midlands. This third level educational facility is available in what is an ideal central location to draw from a rural catchment area.

Because Athlone Regional Technical College has developed many specialities, approximately 40 per cent of its student intake is drawn from further afield than from its hinterland. These speecialities are in mining, engineering, accountancy, catering, toxicology and plastics. Indeed the degree in plastics from Athlone is considered to be the premier award in Europe in this field.

The availability of a highly trained workforce in this region has been a strong incentive to attract industry to locate in the region. Accordingly, a high volume of overseas investment was secured for the region in the seventies and eighties. Potential investors are impressed by the college and its facilities and by the quality of student graduates from that college.

We in County Westmeath are delighted to welcome in the area the establishment of the National Polymer Development Centre and in conjunction with the plastics faculty at the regional technical college, we envisage Westmeath as a region to be developed as the plastics manufacturing centre of Ireland. This will, I hope, help to reduce the rising unemployment figures in the county and help reduce the flood of emigration from the area.

The expertise, commitment and flexibility of the staff at the Athlone Regional Technical College, guarantee the quality and worth of the education provided at the college. We can be confident that the taxpayer is getting value for their investment in this educational establishment. There is of course need for further investment in this college. More space is badly needed for staff to undertake their preparation and research. More space is also needed to enhance and enlarge research facilities, particularly extra laboratory space.

I would appeal particularly to the new Minister for Education to ensure that EC Structural Funds are allocated to help the regions. The regional colleges serve many of the rural disadvantaged areas and, if regionalisation within the community is to have any meaning, then the regional colleges should get their fair share of Structural Funds. These colleges, even though they have almost 50 per cent of third level students, get only about 20 per cent of the moneys allocated in this area.

In welcoming this Bill, I would ask the Minister to give consideration to a number of points. I welcome the inclusion of a student representative on the board of each regional technical college. In view of the huge numbers attending these colleges, it is particularly important that there should be student representation. I would suggest that there should be two students on the board so that when one of them moves on, the second will have had time to become familiar with what is happening. The inclusion of staff members on the board is very important.

I welcome the inclusion of representatives from organisations and interest groups on the board and I would implore the Minister to ensure that these are meaningful appointments and not nominated on the basis of political favouritism.

In situations like that at the Athlone Regional Technical College, when the students come from a number of adjoining counties, I would suggest that recognition be given on the board to vocational education committees from adjoining counties.

I would like the Minister to assure the House that where a college develops a commercial venture which proves to be lucrative, the college budget will not be cut by this amount, but rather, that the profit can be used for further reorganisation and development.

The college should be given the power to award their own certificates and diplomas. This facility is in the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill but is not allowed to the regional technical colleges.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and wish him well in office. It is fair to say that he has always been very pleasant and affable. I have no doubt he will put his communicative skills to good use in the Department of Education. He has been thrown in at the deep end in terms of these Bills. There is also a Green Paper in the offing. While I imagine this is a daunting task for a new Minister I have no doubt Deputy Davern will apply himself to the job with enthusiasm. There are many problems in the education area, for example, the pupil-teacher ratio prefabs and the need for more home-link and guidance teachers. Unlike the Minister's colleague from County Tipperary, I am not going to give the Minister a shopping list.

The Labour Party welcome these Bills in that they will give regional technical colleges greater autonomy in their day-to-day operations. They will also allow the colleges to become involved in research and development and engage in consultive work with industry and business,. This linkage is essential.

The Minister's predecessor, Deputy O'Rourke, indicated she would give consideration to amendments tabled by this side of the House in Committee Stage. I have no doubt that the Minister will repeat that commitment. I look forward to hearing his reply to this debate which will be his maiden speech in this House as Minister for Education. I hope he will be as receptive as his predecessor to the amendments put down by Opposition members which we believe will strengthen the Bill.

If there is a weakness in the Bills it relates to the effect of legislation in the labour area. The Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Spring, referred to this. I am referring in particular to the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 1989, the equality legislation and the part-time workers legislation. At present the vocational education committees are the employers with ultimate responsibility for regional technical colleges. Yet the question of answerability and communication between the regional technical colleges, the chief executive officer and the vocational education committee is suspect. Given the greater autonomy now being devolved on regional technical colleges it is possible that a college could involve their employer, the vocational education committee, in a situation over which they would have no control. This points to a very obvious weakness in the Bill. I hope the Minister will put down the necessary amendments to the Bill or accept opposition amendment,. People should not be allowed to make deciisons which may not be in the best interests of the college and not answerable at the end of the day. It is conceivable that the board of a college could make a decision which may untimately embarrass the vocational education committee, their employer. I hope the Minister will address this obvious weakness in the Bill.

Much criticism has been levelled at the Bill by the IVEA who represent local authorities regarding its centralised nature. Practically all the subsections of section 5 begin with the words, "subject to such conditions as the Minister may determine". I do not think it is the Ministers intention to go against the drift towards decentralisation. Yet that is precisely what will happen under these Bills. People have been talking about the need for local democracy. But these Bills fly in the face of what we have been preaching here for many years in regard to the need for decentralisation.

This Bill takes account of what transpired in regard to regional technical colleges over the past 21 years. I welcome this. The growth of regional technical colleges has been one of the greatest success stories of recent years. At present 40 per cent of third level students attend regional technical colleges. That is an indication of the success of these colleges. However, as previous speakers said, we have to make these colleges more accessible to people. At present many students are unable to attend third level institutions due to a shortage of space and the fact that their families do not have the means to pay for the third level, education. The Minister should address these problems in the coming year.

There is an imbalance in third level education in that many regional technical colleges are opting to run courses on business studies. However, the founding fathers of the technical school movement was to foster technical education. If we are to prosper and come to grips with our unemployment problem, it is absolutely essential that people get involved in technical education. Deputy Garland said technical education was established for people who were not academically bright. We need to create an environment which will encourage our brightest students to get involved in technical education. If we do not have people who can invent and create jobs there will be no jobs for people who are successful in the area of business studies. For instance, accountants are employed by manufacturers; they depend on each other. We need to place greater emphasis on technical education in keeping with the original concept.

I wish to refer to the question of accountability. Up to now vocational education committees were subject to scrutiny by the local government auditor. Under this Bill they will be subject to scrutiny by the Comptroller and Auditor General. If anything went wrong in the past the chief executive officer of the vocational education committee was questioned by the local government auditor and matters had to be put right. The success of this system is evident from the fact that after 60 years in existence no major misdemeanour or malpractice has been discovered or highlighted by local government auditors. Under this Bill the Comptroller and Auditor General will carry out the audit on behalf of the Minister and, if he so desires, the Minister may refer it back to the local chief executive officer or the vocational educational committee. This could lead to a breakdown in the system.

I wish to refer to the research and development and consultancy provisions in the Bill. We are going into the unknown in this respect. It seems the Minister may inadvertently act in a heavy-handed manner in this area. Colleges will have to give two years advance notice of what courses they will offer. There is not sufficient flexibility for the various colleges to react to situations as they arise. Take, for instance, a firm coming into a particular area — where, admittedly, there is usually some build up by the IDA — if certain skills are demanded the local college should be in a position to respond to the individual needs of that firm. The Bill could be an impediment to such a development.

I thank you, Sir, for allowing me to address this matter. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has in mind and how he hopes to deal with amendments.

Thank you Deputy for your co-operation in the matter of time.

I wish to join with all other Deputies in congratulating our new Minister, Deputy Davern, and wish him well. I thank him also for his successful foray into Sligo last Sunday. I wish to inform the House that he handled a potentially delicate situation extremely well.

Generally speaking, I welcome the Bills. The Regional Technical Colleges Bill has particular interest for me as Sligo Regional Technical College has been functioning, indeed flourishing, in my constituency since 1970. The Sligo college, and the training and education it has provided, has had a major impact on the north-western region. It has worked well and year after year turned out highly trained and highly motivated graduates — even though many of them had to exercise their talents and their enthusiasm a long way from Sligo.

Due recognition should be paid at this stage to the work of the vocational education committees and college boards for their control, guidance and direction over 21 years. However, I believe the time has come for a review of the colleges and the governing structures. The Regional Technical Colleges Bill sets about doing this. It is not perfect and will need wholesale amendment, particularly where it gives power to the Minister, but it is a basis, a start. I believe the new Minister may be closer to the local democratic structures than was his predecessor, with due respect to her.

Over the past years the whole scene has changed and this Bill gives formal recognition to those changes, especially the change from the original concept of post-primary education to the colleges which are mainly third level. The regional technical colleges are now to be given statutory recognition for the first time. More power is to be devolved to them. Academic councils and boards of governors are to be established on a statutory basis.

Up to now there was too little opportunity for forward planning by the colleges and much of the activity there had by necessity, to be on an ad hoc basis. Perhaps the Minister would inform us later about the composition of the academic council. Presumably it will include many of the key personnel from the college concerned. Also, I would like him to elaborate on the degree of autonomy each college will have in dealing with their own budget. For example, will finance officers be appointed? To what extent will the regional aspect of the college be reflected in the governing body?

At present, Sligo Regional Technical College has two degree courses — environmental science and quality control, both of which are under the National Council for Education Awards. The new Bill provides that awards may be conferred by the NCEA or a university within the State. I wonder would the Minister consider extending that for an regional technical college in a Border area, such as Sligo, where there would be a possibility for similar arrangements to be made with Queens University, Belfast, or the University of Ulster. I believe that as we approach 1992, that could possibly be a very valuable and imaginative idea and I do not think there are any insurmountable barriers. Also, the Minister should seek to ensure that there would be a healthy balance in each institution between degree and sub-degree work.

Sligo Regional Technical College has at present three apprenticeship courses — toolmaking, for which it is famous, motor engineering and CERT. FÁS is just down the road, about 100 yards from the regional technical college building. Within 100 yards there are two Departments of State — Education and Labour — involved in apprenticeship courses. Has the Minister given any thought to possible changes in this area, particularly with the huge pressure that exists for places in the regional technical colleges? The existing situation works very well, but we must ask ourselves, in the circumstances, whether it is the most advantageous arrangement.

Recently we closed a magnificent, refurbished vocational education school in Tubbercurry because of a lack of pupils. That facility has excellent equipment. Because of the pressure for places at present, consideration should be given to holding apprenticeship courses there on a short term basis. There is enormous potential there.

There is a need for retraining regional technical college staff. This is, I think, universally accepted, especially by the staff members themselves. What happened in 1970? Most of the present staff started in that period, many of whom are now in their mid-forties or mid-fifties. They operate in areas where there have been massive developments and there have been few opportunities for retraining. This must be an area of major concern for and major concentration by the new boards and academic councils. Some staff members would like to be given the option of early retirement. Staff development is vital and more funds should be channelled into this area. Colleges can now engage in research and development. This is good, positive, and should be encouraged but a balance must be maintained with teaching always given priority. I understand this is the trend in other countries.

I hope that in the headlong rush for jobs and career opportunities —Deputy Fitzpatrick spoke very well on this topic —the humanities are not neglected. With space at a premium in most colleges this could happen with technological domination. For instance, art, art and design, could become a victim and this would be a pity. Some might regard the humanities, the liberal arts — to which Deputy Spring referred — as courses which take up too much of the scarce resources but there must be a balance. I believe it would be a big mistake to go headlong into the other area.

I note that the board of governors of the college will have to submit an annual plan to the vocational education committee. If the vocational education committee do not like it, and want deletions or additions, who carries the day? I do not think it is made clear in the Bill. Do the board of governors have the right to stick with their original plan? This could be an area of contention. There are also the totally inadequate and gloomy buildings already referred to in which the regional technical colleges are located and inadequate sports facilities.

I know that the Regional Technical Colleges, Sligo among them, are destined to play an ever greater and more significant role in education in the future and in the economy of the future. They have been of enormous benefit to the economy of the north-west and have had spinoffs in different directions with the attraction of industry. I had the great pleasure of announcing an industry, Shaehan Media Corporation in Hazelwood with a promise of 850 jobs. Already there are 450 employed there now. The reason for that number of jobs is that the regional technical college provided the skilled labour they needed. That has been the experience of many other areas. I hope this Bill, suitably amended, will be a major contributor to the future progress of the regional technical colleges.

The Chair notes the cultured and sensitive atmosphere prevailing in the House and would wish to associate with the words of congratulations and confidence expressed in our new Minister for Education, and now invites him to conclude Second Stage.

Is mian liom buíochas a ghabháil le gach uile Theachta a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht seo.

I thank those Deputies who in their contributions to this debate, of their contributions to this debate, offered congratulations and good wishes to me on my appointment. I look forward with enthusiasm to meeting the challenges and exploiting the opportunities which I have no doubt will come with further developing our educational system.

I have, of course, read the earlier contributions to this excellent debate and I am very heartened by the degree of support which has been forthcoming for the general thrust and intent of these two important Bills.

The need to give greater autonomy to the institutions in their day-to-day operation, the statutory establishment of governing bodies and academic councils, the firm foundation being given for involvement in research, consultancy and development work, as well as the exploitation of such work, are among the progressive aspects of the Bills which have been highlighted by quite a number of speakers.

Deputy Ahearn in the course of her very positive contribution to the debate raised a number of issues. I agree with her fully that the title of the colleges should reflect their role in regional as well as national development. This point has also been made in representations. On the Committee Stage I will be moving an amendment to section 5 (1) of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill, to make specific reference to the regional role of the colleges while not in any way diminishing the contribution they have made and will continue to make to national development.

The Steering Committee on Technical Education defined the role of the colleges as being:

to educate for trade and industry over a broad spectrum of occupations ranging from craft to professional level, notably in engineering and science, but also in commercial, linguistic and other specialities.

The committee did not wish that this definition would in any way constrain the development of the colleges. Indeed, it pointed out that if they are to make their most effective contribution to the needs of society and the economy they must be capable of continuing adaptation to social, economic and technological changes. This type of adaptation is exactly what has happened and was in no way inhibited by their title of technical colleges. The Regional Technical Colleges Bill, will provide a flexible legislative framework under which further adaptation and development can be fostered and encouraged. The evolution and development of the colleges over the past 21 years has been achieved as regional technical colleges. I do not see that we should in any way diminish this achievement or suggest that the title is now inappropriate and needs to be changed to polytechnics. This is a term which is almost exclusive to a particular range of institutions in the United Kingdom.

The principal function of the colleges as set out in section 5 (1) of the Bill is to provide vocational and technical education and training for the economic, technological, scientific, commercial, industrial, social and cultural development of the State. It is this broad statement coupled with the quality of the work in the colleges which more than anything else reflects their present role and provides the necessary flexibility for their future development. The colleges, under their existing titles, as well as the qualifications awarded by the NCEA have over the years achieved international recognition and standing. Some colleges have linkages and joint programmes of study with sister institutions in Europe and are participating in the European Community Erasmus and Comett programmes. Any difficulties they have in participating in these programmes derive not from their title but from the difficulty for students on relatively short cycle courses spending periods of study abroad. The Commission of the European Communities is aware of these difficulties and is looking at ways in which they may be alleviated or overcome.

Deputy Ahearn went on to raise the question of providing for two students on the governing bodies of the colleges. This point was also referred to by Deputy Gerry Reynolds. I certainly can accept their views on this matter and I am prepared to table an appropriate amendment on Committee Stage.

The question was also raised by Deputy Ahearn and Deputy Gerry Reynolds, as it has been in representations to the previous Minister, of ensuring an appropriate balance on the governing bodies between representatives of the vocational education committee in whose area the colleges is located i.e. the principal vocational education committee and other vocational education committees in the college region i.e. associated vocational education committees.

I have sympathy with the general sentiments of the proposal which is to ensure the involvement of all the vocational education committees in a college region. However, section 6 (4) (b) of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill provides that up to four of the six governing body members nominated by the vocational education committee can, by direction of the Minister, be effectively nominated by other vocational education committees in the college region. It would be my intention to use this provision to ensure that the appropriate vocational education committees will be represented on the governing bodies of all the colleges. This provision provides flexibility and, at the same time, can be used to ensure appropriate representation.

The difficulty of enshrining in the First Schedule to the Bill the names of associated vocational education committees is that it would relate to the present geographical distribution of the colleges. If a further college or colleges were to be established the schedule of associated vocational education committees would still apply and the Act would have to be amended to alter it. We should not lock ourselves into this situation and I assure the House that I will use the existing provision in section 6 (4) as intended so as to ensure representation on the governing bodies of the appropriate vocational education committees. It will be the governing bodies which will be responsible for the preparation of the operational programmes for the colleges required under section 13 of the Bill. All of the vocational education committees represented on the governing body would, accordingly, have an input into this process.

Deputy Ahearn raised the question of granting degree awarding powers to the Dublin Institute of Technology and the regional technical colleges. Her view that this should be included in the Bill was supported by Deputies Mac Giolla. Doyle, O'Shea, Kennelly and Browne. A unified Dublin Institute of Technology as envisaged by the Bill would be the second largest third-level institution in the State.

The International Study Group on Technological Education in its 1987 report noted that:

Colleges of Dublin Institute of Technology have been making their own academic awards for over forty years. Industry and the professional bodies have recognised these awards and accepted them as basis for appointment to professional positions and admission to membership of professional bodies.

This is the main reason the Bill provides for the institute awarding its own qualification at sub-degree level.

The report went on to state:

The research activities of the Dublin Institute of Technology are wide ranging, as would be expected in an Institute of such diverse character. Collaboration with other researchers and institutions both nationally and internationally, is a common feature of much of the research carried out by the Institute.

The size of the institute, its history in awarding qualifications and the study group report are among the points being advanced for the granting of degree awarding powers. Degrees are at present awarding by Trinity College and this will continue for the present. However, in her speech opening this debate the Minister pointed out that section 5 of both Bills include a provision that additional functions may be assigned to the regional colleges or the institute by order of the Minister made with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance and the formal approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Minister went on to say that degree awarding powers could, at the appropriate time, be assigned to the Dublin Institute of Technology under this provision. The appropriate time will be when the director and the governing body have established the Institute as a single cohesive entity as envisaged by the Bill. I have every confidence this will be achieved within a relatively short term after the Act comes into operation and I will have no hesitation in then presenting the appropriate draft order for approval by both Houses of the Oireachtas. In fact, to indicate my goodwill in this regard, on Committee Stage, I will table an amendment to section 11 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill to extend the functions of the Academic Council so that it may make recommendations to the governing body on the appointment of external examiners and the conferment of honorary awards. This would be in line with the 1989 legislation establishing the two universities at Limerick and Dublin and would be appropriate when degree awarding power is granted.

The situation in the regional technical colleges is somewhat different. The National Council for Educational Awards is the statutory body entrusted with the approval of courses and the award of qualifications at degree, diploma and certificate level outside the universities. The council is required to ensure that the standard of its qualifications corresponds to relevant standards in the universities. It has taken its mission seriously and has served the regional technical colleges well with the result that today the quality of the council's qualifications is held in high standing both nationally and internationally. In these circumstances and given that section 5 (1) (b) of the Bill provides, inter alia, for the colleges entering into arrangements with a university for the award of qualifications, the role of the NCEA should continue in relation to awarding qualifications in the regional technical colleges.

Deputy O'Shea questioned the appropriateness of introducing these Bills now in the light of a Green Paper on Education. This matter was also referred to by Deputies MacGiolla, Blaney, McGinley and Spring.

The recently agreed joint Programme for Government includes a commitment to publish a Green Paper on Education before the end of the year. This will be a comprehensive policy discussion document leading to a White Paper and ultimately to an Education Act. The publication of the Green Paper is intended to initiate a nationwide debate on a whole range of important issues in education.

This will obviously involve a reasonable period of time after publication so that interested parties may consider the issues raised, make submissions on them and allow the necessary process of dialogue and consultation to take place. Following detailed examination and consideration of the many views that will no doubt emerge during this period the White Paper will be published which, it is intended, will lead to an Education Act. This is a very important process since the Education Act will set down a legislative framework for our educational system for many years to come. While the work will be pressed ahead at all stages as quickly as possible it is of such importance that I am not prepared to lay down an absolute time frame for its completion.

On the legislative front the most serious deficiencies relate to first and second level education. A legislative base exists for most of the university sector and while it is somewhat disparate, some of it is of relatively recent origin. These Bills are in line with those relating to the two newer universities. The need for a satisfactory legislative basis for the work of the Dublin Institute of Technology and the regional technical colleges is well established and accepted. It has been promised for many years and it would be inappropriate to delay it further.

I believe that the Bills we are discussing will serve the needs of the Dublin Institute of Technology and the regional technical colleges for the forseeable future and accordingly should go ahead now. Future legislation in the higher education area will relate to the university sector.

Deputy Brian O'Shea expressed concern at what is perceived in some quarters to be a diminution in the role of the vocational education committee and a tendency to centralised control by the Minister and the Department. He also raised the question of public accountability. These points were also raised by Deputies Tomás Mac Giolla, Joe Doyle, Neil Blaney, Eamon Gilmore and Brendan Howlin.

One of the purposes of these Bills is to give increased autonomy to the institutions. The need for this is accepted and of necessity involves a reduction in day-to-day control at both the local and the central level. It is the governing bodies and not the vocational education committees or the Department who will have the responsibility for the general operation of the institutions on a day-to-day basis. This is in keeping with the situation in the third level sector generally. The move to greater self governance by the institutions has been long promised and has been widely welcomed both in and outside this House.

The impression is being given that these Bills take away all input in relation to the colleges from the vocational education committees. This is simply not the case. Vocational education committees will nominate the chairman and over a third of the ordinary members of the governing bodies. This gives vocational education committees a substantial input into the operation of these bodies which after all will be responsible for the operation of the colleges and for exercising the functions conferred on the colleges in the Bill. Since the governing bodies must prepare annually the operational programmes and budgets, vocational education committees will have a significant involvement in this process.

The vocational education committees are also the bodies who will have authority to approve of the programmes and budget either with or without modification and submit them for final approval to the Minister. Since the governing bodies will be required to operate within the programmes and budgets as approved, the vocational education committee have a fundamental role to play in the process which in effect will provide the overall framework within which the colleges and the institute will be required to operate.

I am a bit concerned about parts of the contributions of Deputies Mac Giolla and Blaney which could be taken as implying that the undoubted success of the colleges was due only to the vocational education committees operating in the face of difficulties placed in their way by an unapppreciative Department. While I readily acknowldge the major contribution these bodies have made to the growth and development of the colleges it would be remiss of me not to stress again the enormous contributions of the principals and staff of the institute and of the colleges. I prefer to think that what we have seen is a successful partnership of all those involved leading to today's situation where these Bills will allow the colleges to go on to a new phase of their development.

The impression is also being given that control is being centralised in the Minister or the Department. This view is based mainly on the numbers of times phrases such as "subject to such conditions as the Minister may determine" appear in the Bills. Much play was made of the number of times the Minister is mentioned in section 5 (1) of both Bills in relation to the functions of the colleges and the institute. Deputy O'Shea in the course of his contribution to the debate raised certain questions as to what would happen in particular circumstances in relation to the involvement in research and consultancy work and in the limited liability companies. He also raised the very important question of ensuring that moneys voted by this House for educational purposes are not in some way diverted to subsidise research and consultancy work for business and industry. In raising these questions I feel he proves the point that in some areas related to functions a completely open-ended approval would be inappropriate.

The Bills are generally in line with the Acts which in 1980 established on a statutory basis the then National Institutes for Higher Education at Limerick and Dublin. In those Acts, of seven areas mentioned in the sections relating to the functions of the institutes, five of these required either the approval of the Minister or were exercised subject to such conditions as the Minister prescribed.

These Acts could not be regarded in any way as having impeded the development of these two institutions nor could successive Ministers or the Department be accused of having a heavy hand in their operation as has been suggested would be the case for the regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology under these Bills. In fact the Acts coupled with the partnership between the staff of the institutes, the Higher Education Authority, the National Council of Educational Awards and the Department fostered and encouraged their development to become the universities which they now are since 1989. It is my firm conviction that these Bills and the partnership of all those involved will similarly facilitate the development of the colleges and the institute.

I can however assure the House that what would be at issue would be the laying down of a general policy framework under which the institutions would then be free to exercise autonomy in their day-to-day operations. As I have said, one of the purposes of the Bills is to give this autonomy and there is no intention that either I or my Department will use the provisions in the Bills to inhibit in any way the general development of the colleges in line with Government policy for the third-level sector as determined from time to time. I will however look at the Bills again to see if there is, in any way, undue interference in the day-to-day operation of the institutions.

Deputies Mac Giolla and Doyle raised concerns with regard to including under the provisions of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill only courses of higher education in the College of Music. Deputy O'Shea suggests that this provision may have been included "as a wedge to get rid of non-higher education courses in other colleges at a later date". This of course is not the intention. Deputy Mac Giolla in his contribution said that pupils are admitted from the age of five upwards. I believe that Deputies will appreciate that students from this age group may not appear to readily belong to an institute of technology.

Despite my reservations on the matter however I have been impressed by the arguments put forward by the Deputies on this question. I am therefore prepared to put down an appropriate amendment on Committee Stage deleting the reference to courses of higher education in relation to the College of Music in the First Schedule to the Dubin Institute of Technology Bill. There will be a need to discuss with all the interests involved the delivery of musical education to those students who are essentially first and second level pupils.

With regard to the question of apprenticeships, which was raised by Deputies Mac Giolla and Doyle, I would strongly refute the suggestion that not specifically referring to apprenticeships in the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill is due to lack of knowledge of the situation or lack of appreciation of the very important apprentice training provision in the colleges. The provisions in the Bills aim to give the greatest possible flexibility in encompassing existing course provision and future developments. The provisions were drawn up bearing in mind the diversity of existing provision and including, of course, the apprenticeships area. I am satisfied that apprenticeships provision is adequately provided for and I will not be proposing changes in this regard.

Deputy Mac Giolla suggested also that there is a need to put a clause in the Bill to try to promote equality of opportunity in education. Second chance students were mentioned by Deputy Doyle. All aspects of educational disadvantage, including the provision of specific programmes for second chance education, are matters for particular attention within the overall strategy for education.

I therefore welcome Deputy Mac Giolla's suggestion in relation to equality of opportunity and I will table an appropriate amendment to cover this important matter.

Deputy Cullimore dealt in some detail with the question of Outreach courses. He spoke of supplementary satellites or approved outcentres in which instruction leading to third level qualifications would be provided outside of but in association with and under the supervision of the regional colleges. This matter was also raised by Deputy Boylan. Deputy Cullimore would like to see the scope of such outcentres spelled out in the Regional Technical Colleges Bill through more specifics about what outcentres entail, the finance available and how they can be encouraged and developed. My view on this matter is that very specific provisions on such matters can end up being restrictive and impeding development. The type of provision envisaged by the Deputy, while not specifically referred to, is not precluded either. For these reasons I am not prepared to change the bills in this regard.

Deputy Doyle in his contribution relating to the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill raises concerns about academic integrity and in particular the function of academic councils. He voices particular concerns about section 11 (3) (e) which provides that a function of the Academic Council shall be to make, subject to such requirements as the Minister may specify, recommendations to the governing body for the selection, admission, retention and exclusion of students". I have already indicated that I am prepared to table an amendment to section 11 of this Bill to provide for academic councils making recommendations to the governing body on the appointment of external examiners and the conferring of honorary awards. In order to further dispel any impression of what Deputy Doyle refers to as a "hidden agenda" I am willing to bring forward a further amendment to section 11 to remove reference to the Minister in section 11 (3) (e).

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but he will appreciate that the time has come to put the question, in accordance with the order of the Dáil of this day.

Accordingly I move: "That the Regional Technical Colleges Bill, 1991 and the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill, 1991 be read a Second Time".

The question is: "That in the case of each of the following Bills, namely, the Regional Technical Colleges Bill, 1991 and the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill, 1991, the Bill is hereby read a Second Time".

The Dáil divided: Tá, 96; Níl, 24.

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Bell, Michael.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies D. Ahern and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Howlin and Ferris.
Question declared carried.

I must now ask when it is proposed to take the Committee Stage of these two Bills. First, may I have a date for the Committee Stage of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill, 1991?

Next Tuesday subject to agreement between the Whips.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 3 December 1991.

May I have a date for the Committee Stage of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill, 1991?

On the same date, subject to agreement between the Whips.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 3 December 1991.
Barr
Roinn