Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 Feb 1993

Vol. 426 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 2 and 1. It is further proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: 1 Business shall be interrupted at 8.40 p.m. tonight; 2, No. 2 shall be decided without debate; 3, The Second Stage of No. 1 shall be taken today and the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the debate; (i) The opening speech of the Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Progressive Democrat Party and the Technical Group shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case. (ii) The speech of each other member called on shall not exceed 20 minutes and (iii) The speech in reply by a Minister of State shall not exceed 15 minutes. 4. Private Members' Business which shall be No. 11 shall commence at 6 p.m. and the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.40 p.m. this evening and Members shall be called upon to speak as follows:

6.00 p.m.-6.40 p.m., Opposition;

6.40 p.m.-7.05 p.m., Government;

7.05 p.m.-7.35 p.m., Opposition;

7.35 p.m.-7.55 p.m., Government; and

7.55 p.m.-8.40 p.m., Opposition.

Leaders of the Opposition Parties will be aware of the Government view in relation to item No. 4 and the reason for the changes.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must now ask whether the proposal that business be interrupted at 8.40 p.m. this evening is satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal that item No. 2 be decided without debate agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with the Second Stage of No. 1 satisfactory and agreed?

Mr. O'Malley

No. Is it proposed to dispose of Second Stage of item No. 1? That is not clear from what is proposed now. That debate may not start until 5 p.m. and that would leave one hour for a Bill of some significance. There will probably be only two speakers and it is totally unsatisfactory.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no provision for concluding the debate today, if that is of any help to the Deputy.

Mr. O'Malley

If it is not proposed to conclude the Second Stage, that is all right.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no such intention. I take it then that the proposal for dealing with the Second Stage of No. 1 is satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. I must now ask if the proposals for dealing with Private Members' Business as outlined are satisfactory.

Mr. J. Bruton

No, Sir, This is a Fine Gael motion on the position in Digital Equipment International Ltd., being taken in Fine Gael time and I propose that the words in the item after the words "No. 11" be deleted. The Government agreed last week that this debate, which is a normal Private Members' Time debate, be taken over two days. The importance of this subject and the concern of the people of Galway about possible job losses in this major industry is such that the Dáil should allow two day's debate.

The Government should not take the exceptional step of confining a Private Members' motion to one day, as it is proposing to do in this case particularly in view of the fact that it agreed last week that Private Members' time would be taken today and tomorrow.

Proinsias De Rossa

On the same subject, the Taoiseach invited me and the other party Leaders to meet him to discuss this matter and we pointed out strongly that we were not agreeable to telescoping this debate into one evening and that the matter should be debated over a two-day period. This side of the House must take exception to what is essentially interference by Government in Private Members' Business, using bullying tactics to get its way in having this debate concluded tonight.

Mr. M. Smith

That is not so.

Proinsias De Rossa

We appreciate the matter is embarrassing for them but nevertheless there are a number of jobs contingent on the survival of this factory and this House must be seen to take the matter seriously.

Mr. Barrett

On a point of order, it is my understanding that Standing Orders set down when Private Members' Business should be taken. I contend that the Government is not entitled to put this motion to the House.

Mr. Shatter

On a point of order, perhaps the Taoiseach may want to respond to what is being said. I invite the Taoiseach, when responding, to indicate how trying to curtail Private Members' time and muzzle Opposition Deputies is compatible with Dáil reform.

Mr. E. Kenny

At last Wednesday's meeting of the Whips, we agreed to the structure of this week's Private Members' Time. As the budget debate is tomorrow, it was agreed by all concerned that the second portion of Private Members' time would be taken from 12 p.m. tomorrow until 1.30 p.m., concluding with a vote. The motion to be debated was not presented to the Whips' meeting. This morning I informed the Government and the Whips' office of our intention to pursue our right in Private Members' time to debate this matter today and tomorrow. Notwithstanding that, the Government Whip was prepared to concede extra time this evening, I regard this as a gross interference by a Government with the largest majority in the history of the State in a fundamental right of an Opposition party, namely interference in our Private Members' time. As such we object most strenuously to this.

The Taoiseach

I met the Leaders of the Opposition parties at lunchtime today. I conveyed to them the Government view that this debate would not serve the national interest. We are trying to do the maximum we can to save all the jobs at the Digital plant in Galway affecting many hundreds of families and their future.

Mr. Molloy

There are thousands of families.

Mr. Shatter

This is a democracy.

The Taoiseach

Consequently, we are not interfering with the Fine Gael time, or that party's right to put down a Private Members' motion. I am sure the Deputies opposite are only too well aware that similar matters have arisen in the past which were postponed for a week when they had not been disposed of on a Wednesday evening. The time given over to Private Members' time is three hours. We are providing three hours for Fine Gael. Any curtailment of time this evening is being compensated in Government time. If the Opposition parties want more time we do not have any problem with that. That is the position. I regret they do not see it the way we do.

I also offered a four-hour-debate, after which a decision would be taken. We do not see a debate this evening as improving our position, which should be the intention of everyone. It is a matter of national interest. At this late stage if the Opposition still wish to go ahead with the debate I see no reason why the debate cannot be completed this evening. Anything that could be said tomorrow morning could be said this evening. If the Opposition require more time and if they wish to preserve their Private Members' time for something else, we are prepared to provide Government time for a full debate whenever a decision is taken.

Mr. Dukes

It will be too late then.

The Taoiseach

It would be the wish of this House and everybody in it that the decision be favourable when it is taken.

Mr. Shatter

We hope it is, despite the Taoiseach's incompetence.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach seems to have forgotten that one of the reasons Ireland has been so successful in attracting foreign industry is that this is a parliamentary democracy. There is not one party rule. That is one of the reasons so many industries have felt secure here. For the Taoiseach to suggest it would only be appropriate for the Dáil to discuss this issue after the decision has already been taken betrays his inadequate understanding of the national interest. It is important that all Members in this House should have an opportunity to express their concern about this matter so that they might influence the decision. The only way that can happen is if the debate takes place before the decision is taken and not afterwards as the Government seem to want. There is a strong case for having a two-day debate because it would allow Opposition and other Deputies an opportunity to reflect on whatever the Minister might say tonight and respond in as constructive a fashion as possible tomorrow. That is why we want a two-day and not a compressed one-day debate. For that reason I must press my amendment. I do not regard the Government's attempt to compress this into a one-day debate as satisfactory in view of the seriousness of the issue and also because this is a Fine Gael motion in Fine Gael time. It is not Government business.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. Having regard to the conciliatory nature of the Taoiseach's remarks, is there any purpose in referring this back to the Whips?

Mr. J. Bruton

I would be happy for the matter to be discussed by the Whips but we are anxious that there be a debate on this matter tomorrow as well as today so we may have an opportunity to reflect on what the Minister said. I have already indicated to the Taoiseach our view that it is important there be a united approach on this issue so that the general concern of all Members in the House can be expressed. That is why the normal procedure should be allowed to continue and the Government should not interfere with Private Members' time.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we come to a consensus or shall I put the question?

The Taoiseach

It would be phoney to have part of a debate today and part tomorrow.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is not normal practice.

The Taoiseach

This would not be the first time Private Members' Business was started and finished on a Tuesday night.

Mr. Flanagan

Private Members' time is not a phoney debate.

The Taoiseach

It is a phoney debate. If the Opposition wants three hours we will give it three hours; if it wants four hours we will give it four hours. Whatever time is wanted will be given. No one intends to take any time from the Opposition. Anything one would wish to say tomorrow one can say this evening.

Mr. Shatter

What will happen tonight that the Taoiseach does not want debated in the Chamber tomorrow?

Mr. Flanagan

It is not a phoney debate.

The Taoiseach

I appeal to Deputy Flanagan to apply normal decency in this House and let people speak.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Why is the Taoiseach trampling on our rights?

The Taoiseach

Deputies' rights have not been trampled on. We are giving the Opposition more time than their entitlement. We will provide three to four hours of Government time for a debate if the Opposition so wishes. If the Opposition pursues this phoney argument I cannot stop them. If the debate does take place tonight I appeal to all speakers to be careful what they say and not adversely affect what might happen in Digital.

Proinsias De Rossa

That is a disgraceful imputation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I want to come to a consensus on this matter.

Mr. E. Kenny

It goes without saying the people on this side of the House are responsible and anything they would have to say in regard to the Digital company would be constructive. There was agreement at the Whips' meeting last week that the second portion of this Private Members' time would be taken tomorrow between 12 p.m. and 1.30 p.m. irespective of what motion was put down. It is not the Fine Gael party that seeks to change this; it is a mandate from the Government to their Whip to force this change in Fine Gael Private Members' time. We regard that as a fundamental matter.

The Taoiseach

To clarify matters for the House, I put on the record that on Thursday of last week Fine Gael notified the Whip's office that its Private Members' Business would be Dáil reform. It was pointed out that such a motion would be discussed one week after a detailed two-day debate on the matter in the Dail and that they might wish to reconsider. On Friday the Government Whip's office was informed that a motion on crime was to be put down. On Monday morning when the Government Whip's office asked for a copy of the crime motion it was imformed that a motion on Digital in the names of Deputies Richard Bruton and Pádraig McCormack would be put down within five minutes. Such a motion was tabled.

Mr. O'Malley

It was agreed last week that this motion would be taken, as Private Members' Motions normally are, over two nights — one and half hours tonight and one and a half hours tomorrow. For the Government to seek now to compress it into one night and to shorten the time——

A Deputy

The time is not being shortened.

Mr. O'Malley

It is shortening the time. It is the first time that any change of this kind has been made without agreement.

It will set a dangerous precedent, if the Government decides today when and how long Private Members' time will be taken, because it has not happened before. The Members of the House, irrespective of the merits of the motion itself, should not agree to such a change being forced.

An Ceann Comhairle

The business is urgent and important. I am concerned that precious time is being eroded.

Mr. Flanagan

The Taoiseach has said that he can vet a Private Members' motion from the Opposition to determine ample time for debate.

Minister for the Environment (Mr. M. Smith)

That is unworthy of the Deputy.

Mr. Flanagan

Will that be from now on? As guardian of the Members' rights and as Chairman of this Chamber, I ask you for direction, a Cheann Comhairle. Are you as Chairman of the Committee on Procedure and Privilages to preside over a House that will depart from all precedents in this regard and allow the Taoiseach and the Government with the largest majority in the history of the State, to decide when and for how long a Private Members' motion may be taken, with careless disgard for Standing Orders?

The Taoiseach

I must put on the record that I am not questioning what Fine Gael want to do or say. I said that the argument to have more debate tomorrow for the same length of time as today was a phoney argument and I still believe it is a phoney argument.

Mrs. Owen

Why? What is the Taoiseach trying to hide?

The Taoiseach

It is quite reasonable to suggest to the Opposition parties that the normal pattern of Private Members' Business should not apply this week, because of the budget tomorrow evening.

Mr. Dukes

Nonsense.

The Taoiseach

I suggest to Opposition Deputies that if they believe it is necessary to debate this matter until midnight tonight, as far as the Government is concerned, they can do so. Only Government time will be curtailed. There is no proposal to curtail Fine Gael or other Opposition time. If there are any serious arguments against curtailment of time, or that the three hours is not sufficient, I am prepared to extend the time until 10 p.m., 11 p.m. or 12 midnight. That cannot be considered bulldozing or jackboot tactics.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is being brought into the matter. I have sought to find a consensus. I said earlier that it should be referred back to the Whips. There is goodwill on both sides of the House for an amicable solution in respect of the time factor. Let the Whips decide.

Mr. J. Bruton

We on this side of the House are very appreciative of the fact that you have sought to find an amicable solution to the matter. In deference to your wishes we will discuss it through that channel.