Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 Feb 1993

Vol. 426 No. 5

Adjournment Debate. - Teachers of Art and Physical Education.

Mr. J. Higgins

I thank the Chair for selecting this item for the Adjournment debate and I take this opportunity to wish the new Minister for Education well in her portfolio.

One of the most precious rights and privileges of Members of the House is the right to ask a parliamentary question. It is a legitimate device to extract information from Ministers in relation to local and often national issues. It is the one occasion when a Deputy can really get to grips with an issue. Supplementary questions afford Deputies their only real opportunity of eyeball to eyeball contact with the Minister in relation to topics and subjects.

In fairness to Ministers, questions are generally answered in the required detail when such questions are quite obviously going to come within the lucky lottery of 15 or 20 questions to be taken orally. All Ministers, or the majority of them, will give Questions 50 on the Order Paper, the answer to which will only be given in written form, the same kind of attention to detail as a question which is to be orally answered. We can say in fairness that the information is generally readily given. Sometimes it may be unpalatable but generally it is put on the table for debate for discussion.

Apart from an acknowledgement of the right of Members to seek and extract information, there is also the fact that every Minister has the substantial bureaucracy of the Civil Service at his or her disposal to deal with each and every aspect of their Departments where files are readily available, information can be obtained at the press of a button and accountability is very much the order of the day.

The easiest questions for Ministers to answer are statistical because we are talking about precise figures as against something of an arbitrary nature or something that is open to conjecture, the subject of a policy review, etc.

The Department of Education is one of the biggest Departments. The total Estimate for that Department and the running of the services under the aegis of that Department is £1.6 billion. The Department of Education is one of the three big spenders in terms of staff and services. On 16 February 1993 I put down a question to the Minister for Education to state the numbers of qualified teachers of art, music and physical education in post-primary schools with first, fewer than 100 pupils, then between 100 and 200 pupils, between 200 and 300 pupils and so on, up to 800 pupils plus. I asked the Minister to make a statement on this matter. I received the following reply:

The information sought by the Deputy is not readily available in my Department.

That is not acceptable because this information is readily available in the Minister's Department. The information is on file and on computer in the Department. Each and every teacher about whom I sought information is an employee of the Minister's Department, is paid by the Department, is monitored and is the subject of inspection by the Department and is answerable to the Department. Yet, when I sought this information I was given a reply which is not in accordance with the facts and is not acceptable.

When I asked the former Minister for Education, Deputy Brennan, for specific details in relation to precise class sizes and other statistical information, I received precise replies. Similarly, I tabled during the limited period in office of former Minister for Education, Deputy Davern, equally detailed statistical questions and again accurate responses were forthcoming. The former Minister for Education, Deputy O'Rourke, and I never really hit it off in political terms but I will say that when it came to supplying statistical information, even though it may have been unpalatable at times, she never flinched, never shirked and never tried to evade an issue. I am saying to the Minister for Education in the straightest possible terms that when I table a Dáil question, seeking precise information particularly statistical information which is on file within the Department, I want an accurate reply. As a Member of Dáil Éireann I am entitled to an accurate reply and I will have an accurate reply.

I note, that in the intervening week I was not afforded the courtesy of a followup reply giving the details which I did not receive last Tuesday. I also note that a similar question tabled by Deputy Frances Fitzgerald on 10 February received a reply, which again, is unacceptable. The question was in relation to Scoil Mhuire, Sandymount, Dublin 4.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are dealing with one question here.

Mr. J. Higgins

The answer was vague, imprecise and dealt more with the intention of the Minister to make direct contact with the school authorities rather than with the Member in question who was seeking the information.

Looking at the Education Estimate I note that the greatest single increase has been under subhead A.7. There is a 147 per cent increase for consultancy services. There have been advisers, programme managers and assistants appointed. The Minister has the most efficient Civil Service office. I ask the Minister not to come before this House again with a flimsy, inadequate, imprecise, evasive and incomplete answer.

Minister for Education (Ms Bhreathnach)

I thank Deputy Higgins for his good wishes on my appointment as Minister for Education. I am glad the Deputy raised the matter he did as it gives me an opportunity to inform the House of my Department's position on this statistical question. The Deputy requested specific information in relation to the number of qualified teachers of art, music and physical education in schools of varying sizes. I would like to assure the House that the prime reason for not supplying the information sought is, as I stated in my reply to his parliamentary question on 16 February, that the information requested is not readily available at this time in my Department.

My Department determines the teacher allocation for individual secondary and community/comprehensive schools and vocational education committees by reference to the current pupil-teacher ratio and taking account of the approved ex-quota posts. Wherever approval given for the filling of a vacancy it is a matter for the management authorities of individual secondary and community/comprehensive schools and for vocational education committees, in the case of the vocational schools, to decide on the subject or subjects which should be catered for. The management authorities would be expected to take account of the curriculum needs of their pupils and their existing resources in arriving at that decision. The approved appointment procedures must then be followed in the filling of the post.

The authorities of community/comprehensive and vocational schools must submit a formal proposal and recommendation for appointment of a particular teacher to my Department for approval. My Department examines the proposal and, provided the post is within the approved teacher allocation, the proper appointment procedures have been followed and the person is fully qualified, the appointment is approved.

In the case of secondary schools, my Department does not formally approve the appointment. It does, however, sanction the filling of the vacancy and ensures that teachers are registered in accordance with the conditions set down by the registration council. The authorities of the schools notify the Department of the appointment and the Department arranges the payment of incremental salary, where appropriate.

My Department allocates and approves the appointment of teachers to the vocational education sector on a scheme basis and not to individual schools. It is a matter for the chief executive officer of each vocational education committee to allocate staff to individual schools within his vocational education committee as he thinks fit.

The relevant documentation in relation to appointments is not kept in such a way as to enable me to indicate that a teacher who holds a specific qualification is appointed to a school in a certain enrolment category. In order to compile the type of information requested by the Deputy it would be necessary for my Department to correspond with the authorities of each postprimary school and to divert scarce staff resources for the purposes of analysing the relevant returns.

My Department is conscious of the need to maintain readily accessible up to date statistical information on teachers. I am pleased to inform the Deputy that it is proposed to set up a computer-based personnel system for teachers which, when operational, will enable the type of information sought by him to be made available at short notice.