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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Jun 1994

Vol. 443 No. 5

Appointment of Ombudsman: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann recommends Mr. Kevin Murphy for appointment by the President to be the Ombudsman.

I am very pleased to move this motion recommending that the President should appoint Mr. Kevin Murphy to succeed Mr. Michael Mills in the position of Ombudsman. Under the terms of the Ombudsman Act, 1980, Mr. Mills will vacate the office on reaching retirement age at the end of next October.

The House will be aware that the Ombudsman Act provides that the Ombudsman is to be appointed by the president upon resolution passed by the Dáil and Seanad recommending the appointment of the person concerned. The term of office is specified in that Act as six years.

I feel sure that I speak for every Member of this House when I say that this country owes Mr. Mills a debt of gratitude for the service which he has rendered during his two terms of office as Ombudsman. It should be remembered that he was our first Ombudsman and to him fell the onerous task of setting up the office, of making its presence and purpose known to the public and of establishing trust and confidence with a public service which was occasionally — during the initial years at any rate — somewhat suspicious of this new creation. In this way he successfully counterbalanced any popular perception that the Ombudsman was there simply to attack the public service. Finally, and most importantly, Mr. Mills established the office as offering an easy and effective form of redress to those citizens who felt that they had been short-changed in their dealings with the public service.

Mr. Mills rose to these tasks with a determination and enthusiasm to vindicate the rights of the citizen in his or her dealings with the institutions of Government which, allied to a sense of fair play, ensured that the Office of the Ombudsman rapidly became a vital and respected element of our system of public administration. His achievement has been reflected in the genuine tributes which have been paid to him from all sides of this House and of Seanad Éireann on the various occasions when his annual report or other matters pertaining to his office have been discussed in the Oireachtas.

A revealing index of Michael Mills' success has been the volume of cases which he and his staff have processed since he first took office. An examination of the annual reports of the Ombudsman from the first in 1984 up to the most recently published one in 1992 reveals that some 30,000 complaints were processed and that, of these, some 20 per cent were resolved in favour of the complainant, while a further 26 per cent received assistance in one way or another by, for example, directing complainants to other benefits, other schemes or other courses of action which could afford a resolution to their problems.

These statistics are a monument to a truly remarkable achievement. I know that all Members of this House will wish to join me in expressing our sincere appreciation for his contribution to our country and in wishing him a very long and happy life after he vacates the position of Ombudsman.

Mr. Michael Mills set a remarkably high standard of achievement and the Government was determined that, in recommending a successor for the position of Ombudsman, the chosen individual would be somebody who could emulate and, indeed, build upon these achievements. When we approached Mr. Kevin Murphy and requested him to allow his name to be recommended for the position of Ombudsman, we felt sure that we had identified somebody with the ideal profile for the position. We are appreciative of the fact that he responded positively to our approach.

It is appropriate to say something at this stage about the thinking which informed the Government's decision to approach Mr. Murphy. We had in mind the way in which we wish to see the public service develop and the complementary role which a strong and committed Ombudsman could play in this process.

A major element of the Government's approach is the perceived need to develop and strengthen the customer relations culture in the public service. When recently launching an initiative to develop strategic management in the Irish public service, the Taoiseach highlighted a number of specific ways in which customer service must be improved — for example, by making services accessible to the users, by making systems and procedures as simple and straightforward as possible, by ensuring that official forms are fully comprehensible and by reducing the number of official forms.

We are blessed with a public administration which is rich in talent and commitment, possesses a remarkable degree of professional integrity and is immersed in the public service ethic. I know from personal experience that nobody is more aware than our public servants themselves of the need to change and adapt in the face of the rapidly accelerating rate at which society and social expectations are developing here. If change is to be successfully implemented, public servants must have a sense of being involved. Change cannot be imposed from outside. I am confident that there is huge commitment to, and enthusiasm for, change among our senior public service managers.

Of course, we have had reforms and attempted reforms of public administration in the past — some were largely ignored, while others were implemented in part. What I feel sets the current initiative apart is the degree to which the purpose of public service is highlighted. There is clear focus on the ends to be achieved — the identification of the real needs of our citizens and the delivery of appropriate services to those citizens.

The Ombudsman operates within an independent legislative framework. Nonetheless, the Government considers that there is a significant parallel between his statutory role and the initiative announced by the Taoiseach. This is seen most clearly in the shared commitment to championing the rights of the citizen in his or her dealings with the bureaucracy.

The impact which an effective Ombudsman can make in defending citizens' rights can be seen most strikingly in those cases, which appear again and again in the annual reports, where he precipitated change which reverberated far beyond the individual case. One thinks of such initiatives as the many procedural improvements, the reforms of anomalies, both legal and otherwise, the encouragement of public officials to adopt a more sympathetic approach to the predicament of their client, each one an initiative which made life much easier for so many of our citizens who had business to transact with Government Departments or other public agencies.

In Mr. Kevin Murphy we believe that we have somebody who as Ombudsman could move forward the process of championing the cause of the individual citizens in their dealings with public agencies. He is one of our most gifted public servants. Indeed, on many occasions I have been the beneficiary of his valuable advice, and advice based on a wide experience of public administration at the most senior level, advice always given frankly and objectively.

I would like to say something about those aspects of Mr. Murphy's background and experience which persuaded the Government of his particular suitability for the position of Ombudsman. His senior management postings have involved him in an extensive range of dealing with people outside as well as within the public service. For many years he was a member of the Employer Labour Conference. More recently he has played a leading role in negotiating the Programme for National Recovery, the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and the recent Programme for Competitiveness and Work. The skills which Mr. Kevin Murphy displayed in leading those negotiations included patience, judgment, intellectual and physical stamina and a creative approach to problem solving.

In addition to these qualities, he possesses another and in my view vital attribute: the ability to maintain good relations with, and retain the trust of, all sides, without compromising his own position. This is a quality which I have so often seen him display even when negotiations ran into stormy waters.

I note with regret that the Government's announcement of its intention to nominate Mr. Murphy drew a knee jerk reaction from some who contended that a public servant was by definition unsuitable for this appointment or that this particular nomination would in some way diminish the independence of the Ombudsman. These are views to which I do not subscribe and which have no basis in reality.

Neither I nor the Government see this appointment as indicating in any way that civil servants should in the future monopolise or have any prior claim on this particular office. The range of backgrounds from which Ombudsmen in other jurisdictions have been drawn is wide and includes, in many instances, public service backgrounds. This diversity, I think, reflects the needs of the institution at different stages. Our first Ombudsman had to face the task of gaining acceptance for his office from parliamentarians and making potential clients aware of its existence and utility to them. His unique familiarity with Deputies of all parties, who could well have seen the Ombudsman as competing with their own grievance resolution role, and his journalistic experience contributed in no small way to the successful accomplishment of these talks.

At all times the essential task of the Ombudsman will be to bring justice and compassion to bear on the situations where the law, or the application of the law, does not provide them. Investigation and resolution of individual grievances must always be his or her prime function. In that regard, I am aware that Mr. Murphy's trade union colleagues on the other side of the table always have viewed him as a tough and principal negotiator on macro issues of pay and conditions but as an accessible and sympathetic listener on individual cases involving grievances or inequities.

However, there are other aspects to an Ombudsman's role besides individual grievances once the institution has secured acceptance as part of the administrative landscape. For instance there is a need to assess independently, and provide feedback on, organisational deficiencies which give rise to individual grievances. We have put in place mechanisms to review from the "value of money" point of view the operation of public service organisations and to improve their managerial efficiency. The office of Ombudsman, at this stage of its development, has reached the point where we would be justified in looking to it to provide an institutional audit of such organisations from the point of view of the client. This particular task would be facilitated by the appointment as Ombudsman of someone whose background gives a ready familiarity with the organisational and procedural functions of the public service.

There are other prospective developments which reinforce that view. This Government set out in its Programme for a Partnership Government an agenda for change aimed at broadening, or as I would prefer, deepening our democracy. Our proposals in relation to such matters as ethics in public office, electoral reform and freedom of information are at an advanced stage and some will be brought before this House shortly. In many of these areas, there will be a need for mechanisms to resolve disputes which have a public interest dimension or which arise between individual citizens and State interests. The outgoing Ombudsman has already highlighted the similarity between the adjudicatory tasks involved and the current functions of his office. This is something which the Government will take into account in its consideration of these matters.

I consider that it is Mr. Murphy's background which especially fits him for the position of Ombudsman. He has a thorough grasp of the realities of public service here. His high level management experience in the Civil Service would afford him a particularly valuable point from which to distinguish between those cases where legal or other legitimate circumstances preclude a certain course of action as opposed to those where dubious administrative practice is the main obstacle.

Mr. Murphy had the unusual experience for a civil servant of competing successfully in a public competition for a senior management position of Deputy Secretary in the Department of the Public Service, a Department where he was soon to rise to the rank of Secretary. When that Department merged with the Department of Finance in 1987 he formed part of the top management team in that Department. The positions which he has held in both Departments involved him in regular high level contacts with management in all Government Departments and with bodies in the wider public service as well. They also required him on numerous occasions to take, and stand over, difficult decisions, decisions which would on occasions have been unpopular with his public service colleagues in other Departments and agencies.

As Minister for Finance, I am conscious of Mr. Kevin Murphy's particular aptitude for innovative and progressive thought on all matters relating to the reshaping of the public service. I know that the many Members of this House who like to keep abreast of the latest thinking in public administration will be aware of Mr. Murphy's reputation in this regard, based on his many public and published addresses. Lest any cynics present might view these plaudits as the biased view of a Minister for one of his senior mandarins. I should like to quote the words of Senator Professor Jospeh Lee, one of the most trenchant critics of shortcomings in the Civil Service. In his book, Ireland 1912-1985 about Mr. Kevin Murphy's contributions to one particular debate:

Kevin Murphy ... committed himself to a courageous public statement on the possibilities for improved productivity in the civil service. Few senior decision-makers in other institutions, whether in the public or private sector, would comment as candidly or as intelligently on the difficulties they faced.

I have the utmost confidence that Mr. Murphy will make a remarkable contribution to this country if appointed as Ombudsman. Therefore, I have no hesitation in commending this motion to the House.

I pay tribute to Mr. Michael Mills, who served the office of Ombudsman with great distinction during the past number of years. The annual reports produced by his office clearly indicate his concern for natural justice, for sorting out problems for a great many people and ensuring that the interest of his clients was followed through in as complete a fashion as possible. I wish Michael Mills well in his retirement. He played a major part in the life of this country as a political journalist for many years and subsequently in his role as Ombudsman. In dealing with 30,000 cases, 20 per cent of which were in favour of the client, Mr. Mills brought a great deal of relief to many people through his office.

The establishment of regional offices, within the Ombudsman's department, was innovative and long overdue. One has only to hear of the numbers of people who attend the regional offices for discussion on a wide variety of problems to appreciate the interest and understanding of the role of the Ombudsman's office. He had to fight trenchantly and go public, during the reign of another administration, to seek extra staff and funding to ensure that the terms of his office were adhered to.

My party is opposed to the proposed appointment by the Government of Mr. Kevin Murphy as Ombudsman, although not on the basis of his credentials and I have no doubt that the attributes accorded to him by the Minister for Finance are genuine. I am sure he is a civil servant of great ability and, obviously, of long service to the State. However, in his role as proposed Ombudsman he is appointed as judge and adjudicator over many of the offices, civil servants and colleagues with whom he now works. This appointment is being made without consultation with any leaders of the Opposition parties, a precedent stipulated when Mr. Mills was first appointed.

Speaking on the Ombudsman (No. 2) Bill, 1979 — volume 320, column 1175, Official Report of 8 May 1980 — the former Minister of State at the Department of the Public Service, Deputy Calleary, gave details of the role of the Ombudsman as it was then seen. He pointed out that civil servants are expected to be advisers and to ensure that the Minister's actions are legally correct and defensible and to analyse and offer views on available options. He said:

This role calls for certain skills ... and expertise. At the same time, he is expected to be a manager in the best modern manner, identifying and even anticipating the citizen's needs ... While, in general our civil servants perform with a high degree of dedication and competence, it is clearly very difficult for any individual to discharge both of those roles at once.

In column No. 1177 he went on to say:

I and the Government regard it as vital to the success of the institution that the Ombudsman be acceptable to all sides of this House.

There has been no consultation with the Leaders of the Opposition parties in regard to the proposed appointment of Mr. Kevin Murphy, which is not in keeping with the precedent established on the appointment of Mr. Mills. The then Minister for the Public Service, Mr. Boland — volume 345, column 608 of the Official Report of 25 October 1983 — said:

In accordance with the commitments made during the passage of the Bill through the Dáil and Seanad in 1980, and specifically my own commitment here in the House on 8 July last, I have consulted with the Leader of the Opposition in advance of making known the nominee.

In the context of the Bill, the office of the Ombudsman and the nominee being acceptable to everybody the Minister should, out of courtesy at least, have discussed this matter with the Leaders of the Opposition so that nobody would be in any doubt. I also note that when the Taoiseach was Minister for the Public Service — volume 394, No. 6, columns 1674 and 1675 of the Official Report of 14 December 1989 — he was asked on three separate occasions, arising out of Private Notice Questions, by the former Deputy, Dr. Garret FitzGerald if the Government would consult the Leaders of the Opposition prior to making public the name of the proposed nominee for Ombudsman. Three times, Deputy Reynolds — now Taoiseach — refused to answer any of those questions. That is simply not good enough and a point that rankles. This is an independent office with an independent adjudicator and the nominee should be acceptable to all sides of the House, through which he is appointed by the President, and to whom he is answerable.

I note that the role of Ombudsman has been expanded by virtue of legislation and ministerial regulation. The Minister was right in saying that the results of decisions by the Ombudsman, in many of the cases on which he has adjudicated, "reverberated far beyond the individual case". The then Minister for the Public Service, Mr. Boland — volume 345, column 607 of the Official Report of 25 October 1983 — said:

He may begin an investigation on his own initiative — arising out of a newspaper report, for example.

There is a cloud over the Taoiseach as a result of newspaper reports which may or may not be accurate. It may well be that the Ombudsman might wish to proceed with an investigation on his own initiative in so far as his responsibility relates to the Civil Service. This would obviously have an impact on the present situation with regard to passports, as far as reports to the Minister for Enterprise and Employment are concerned about companies involved and named in the newspapers. If the Taoiseach did not want to answer a question it may well be that the Ombudsman would decide to investigate whether the Taoiseach would benefit from any of the Masri investment in C & D Foods. If the Tánaiste does not wish to refer the present dispute to the Commission, provided for in the Ethics in Public Office Bill, 1994, it may well be that the Ombudsman's office would initiate an investigation arising from newspaper reports. If the Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, does not wish to answer questions in regard to the consultancy firm appointed, the status of that firm, or to give the name of the managing director of that firm, the Ombudsman's office may wish to investigate that matter.

I do not think the Deputy should travel along that road.

I do not want to go down too far.

We had a debate on that matter yesterday. I find it difficult to relate that matter to the issue before us, that of the Ombudsman.

Speaking on the appointment of Ombudsman motion on 25 October 1983 the then Minister for the Public Service, Mr. Boland, clearly said it was possible for the office of Ombudsman to initiate an investigation on his own initiative and he referred specifically to newspaper reports. I make that point in case the Ministers involved do not wish to dispel any clouds which hang over the Taoiseach or members of the Cabinet.

This should not become a rehash of yesterday's proceedings.

That is not my intention, but it is possible for the Ombudsman to initiate investigations on his own initiative arising from newspaper reports. There are newspaper reports which cast doubt on the independence of this House. If the Ombudsman is to be a truly independent judge and adjudicator of the Civil Service and semi-State bodies these are legitimate questions which should be asked by him and to which he should seek answers. I hope he will initiate an investigation into the matter arising from the newspaper reports to which I have referred.

I wish to make one other point which is of great interest to me. When the previous Leas-Cheann Comhairle former Deputy Tunney, spoke to this Act he referred to the Irish language. He felt that the office of the Ombudsman should be allowed to investigate the matter. Numerous small primary schools throughout the country, particularly in fíorghaeltacht areas, are now being reduced to single teacher status. As Irish is the official language of the State the Government should provide every support in those areas where it is alive.

I am sorry but I have to oppose the appointment proposed by the Minister on the basis that no consultations took place with the leaders of the Opposition parties and that Mr. Murphy is expected to act as judge and adjudicator of his own kith and kin.

I accept that all the plaudits given by the Minister for Finance to Mr. Murphy are well deserved. I am sure he is a decent, skilled and experienced man and that the nation owes him a considerable debt of gratitude for the way in which he applied himself to the various positions he has held within the public service. I do not say this in an offhand way. I recognise the validity of much of what the Minister had to say in relation to this man's track record in the public service. I accept that he is a person of considerable merit. However, that is not what we are dealing with today; we are dealing with the question of whether he should be made Ombudsman.

In order to address this question properly it is important to go back to the origins of the office of the Ombudsman. It is relevant to note that the Devlin committee on the reform of the public service marked the starting point, in Ireland at any rate, in relation to the call for the appointment of a person to administer a system of administrative justice and who would be accountable to the Houses of the Oireachtas.

It is also relevant to note that in 1977 an all-party committee of this House was established under the chairmanship of Richie Ryan — the late George Colley was vice-chairman — to discuss how the proposal that an Ombudsman be appointed could be advanced. This committee, which reported in that year. recommended unanimously that the appointment of an Ombudsman should have cross-party support and should be designed to ensure that whoever would be appointed to the position would have the united support of the political establishment. The formula it devised at that time was that the resolutions relating to the appointment of the Ombudsman should receive the support of two-thirds of the Members of this House. It decided that that was the correct way of ensuring that everybody in this House would be consulted on the issue and that the appointment would carry cross-party support. By definition, it was also designed to exclude the possibility that one side of this House could decide to impose its own candidate on the rest of the House in a way that was controversial or deprived the person nominated of the cross-party support that is essential to the proper functioning of the office.

The suggestion that there should be a two-thirds qualified majority was not, unfortunately, incorporated in the Ombudsman Act, 1980, but it is relevant to point out that in departing from this recommendation of the all-party committee the Government of the day made it clear that it was its intention to ensure that there would be cross party consultation and that the position would not be filled following a partisan nomination from one side of the House.

As we find out so often in this House, words are cheap and promises are evanescent. The logic behind the recommendation that the resolution relating to the appointment of the Ombudsman should receive the support of two-thirds of the Members of this House was quickly forgotten, although when Mr. Michael Mills was appointed there was consultation with the Opposition parties. The promise was kept for a short period but shortly thereafter it was discarded.

When Mr. Mills came to be reappointed this House found itself in a peculiar situation in that there was opposition from the then Taoiseach, Charles Haughey, and particularly from the Department of Finance, which was unhappy with him for a number of reasons, It was only after a titanic struggle, and one of the less publicised confrontations within the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrat Coalition, that there was a back-down on the issue and he was reappointed for a second term.

I regret to say, in sadness, that at that time the Department of Finance had its own agenda. It deprived the Office of the Ombudsman of necessary resources. There was a cutback without any reference to this House and the Ombudsman had to protest that his Office was effectively being neutered. I say this not to recriminate but to outline the facts, as sometimes we proceed on the basis of fiction. It is worth pointing out that the independence and integrity of Michael Mills, to whom the Minister has paid a generous tribute, was born out of cross-party consensus and a process of consultation. There was a clear indication on his nomination that he was to be independent of the public service and manifestly independent of political patronage.

Section 2 (2) of the Ombudsman Act, 1980, provides that the appointment shall be made following the acceptance of a resolution by each House of the Oireachtas. This was supposed to symbolise the notion that it was the Members of these Houses who would make the decision. There is nothing in the Act which hints at the notion that the Government will make a nomination and seek the approval of the Dáil. This was never envisaged; theoretically, the Government could have a minority in one House. This is not a Government position and it was never in the gift of the Government. It was therefore wrong for the Government to take the decision to approach Mr. Murphy. It is also wrong for the Fianna Fáil and Labour parliamentary parties to accept that this is a Government appointment rather than a parliamentarians' appointment. It should be dealt with on a cross-party basis.

Deputy Kenny was extremely polite in saying that the Government lacked courtesy in failing to consult with other Members of this House. The manner in which this was done was much more than a lack of courtesy, it was a complete subversion of the principle and spirit in which this Act evolved and of the notion of cross-party agreement. This was sprung on the Opposition as a fait accompli and in that context a big mistake has been made.

It is said that this position has slipped into the grip of the public service. When the next appointment is being made a suitably qualified and clever man in a similar position to that of Mr. Murphy could claim on the basis of precedent that he has first call on the position and say to the Minister of the day that it is the way it was done in 1994. The position would be given to such a person unless there is something wrong with him. Regrettably, this position has dropped into the maw of appointments which can be made only from the public service. The precedent is set and will not be reversed except by people who are determined to do so and have the nerve and guts to stand up to the public servants and say there is not a precedent and that while the person in question may be qualified they want a more independent person. That will be a difficult case to make in the future.

The recently published second edition textbook on administrative law by Hogan and Morgan outlines the necessity for independence in the position of Ombudsman. It is regrettable that the symbolism of that independence has been thrown away by the failure to consult other parties and the decision to appoint a person from the top ranks of the public service to be the judge of the public service.

I do not accept what the Minister stated about the necessity for the role of Ombudsman to be developed to the stage of doing an institutional audit of organisations from the point of view of the client. That is not the function of the Ombudsman and is not written into the Act. It is, of course, true that the Ombudsman is given power to make recommendations, but to incorporate the Ombudsman into a role of carrying out audits on the public service for the Government is a mistake and does not have a statutory basis.

Mr. Murphy is a senior and notable civil servant. He is taking up this position for a period of years. What will happen when that period expires? If he is not reappointed, to where will he return? Will he return to the senior echelons of the public service? In that context he is incapable of being independent. He is being appointed at a time in his life when, having served his term and if he is not reappointed to the public service, he will have a strong moral case for an extension of his term as Ombudsman. He can make the point that he made his decision in mid career which puts him in a slightly compromised position.

Mr. Murphy will retire after his period in office. He may reach retirement age even before that.

I was told he is in his fifties.

He will have reached retirement age.

If that is the case, so be it. But if the position is open to members of the public service who would not have reached retirement age at the end of their term, they would be compromised in this way. Therefore, it is desirable that we should look outside the public service to provide an administrative judge to report to this House on the public service. I have nothing against public servants, but I do not believe that the Commissioner of the Garda should be made a criminal judge or that the position of Director of Public Prosecutions should be filled from within the Garda. I draw that analogy with this appointment. It is regrettable that the conventions in relation to this appointment were trampled down on this occasion. We will be opposing the nomination.

My party will not be opposing the motion for the appointment of Mr. Kevin Murphy to the position of Ombudsman. Nonetheless, we are very disappointed at the failure of the Government to consult in the spirit of the legislation the other Dáil parties about the appointment as was the case when Mr. Michael Mills was put forward for appointment in 1983.

Mr. Murphy will have a difficult act to follow in that Michael Mills has been an outstanding success in the position. As the first appointee to the office he had only the broad legislative framework against which to operate, but he established the office of Ombudsman as a position of considerable significance in Irish life. Mr. Mills turned out to be an inspired choice. His integrity, courage, independence and commitment to those who turned to the Ombudsman as a court of last resort with their grievances have been the outstanding features of more than ten years public service in that position.

We should not forget that the treatment of Mr. Mills by a number of previous Governments was far from honourable. In 1987 and 1988 the then Fianna Fáil Government attempted to emasculate the office of Ombudsman by starving it of staff resources. The number of investigators in the Office of Ombudsman was chopped from 16 at the beginning of 1987 to eight at the beginning of 1988, despite the fact that his workload increased significantly over that period. It was only when Mr. Mills went public on the issue and it became a matter of controversy that staff members were restored to that approaching an acceptable level. In 1989 the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrat Government, in which the Taoiseach was then Minister for Finance and had overall responsibility for the office of Ombudsman, also treated Mr. Mills in a shabby fashion. Deputy McDowell stated that his party was not involved in those decisions; nonetheless, the objective manner in which Mr. Mills was treated was unacceptable.

The Government did not appoint Mr. Mills until the last minute. Apparently the aim at the time was to let the appointment time lapse, presumably to open the way to appoint a person who might be less of a thorn in the side of the bureaucracy. A lesser person than Mr. Mills might have been tempted to wash his hands of the affair and walk away. The public owes him a considerable debt of gratitude for not doing so.

Given all that has happened, it is unfortunate that the Government chose to announce the nomination of Mr. Murphy without consultation with Opposition parties. The appointment of an Ombudsman should ideally be done on the basis of consensus and should not become a matter of political controversy; that is the spirit of the legislation as I understand it. Under the 1980 Act the appointment is made by the President upon a resolution passed by the Dáil and Seanad. The political reality is that this gives the Government of the day the power to make the appointment. If the public is to have confidence in the person appointed and if the appointment is to avoid becoming a matter of political controversy, we need to review the procedures for appointing the Ombudsman. We could model new procedures on those governing, say, the appointment of the chairman of An Bord Pleanála. Under the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1983, a committee of independent experts, including, among others, the President of the High Court and the chairman of An Taisce, draw up a short list of candidates from whom the Government must select its nominee. Surely it would be possible to have a similar committee of independent persons to draw up a short list of potential candidates for the position of Ombudsman. That would be a far better way of making the appointment than the present position on which the Dáil has been presented with a fait accompli and the only choices open are to accept the nomination of Mr. Murphy or vote against him.

I do not accept suggestions that Mr. Murphy is automatically unsuitable for appointment simply because he has been a senior civil servant. I do not believe any profession should be excluded from consideration. The political correspondent of a national newspaper was in many respects an unlikely choice, but he turned out to be a very good one. Mr. Murphy will certainly have the advantage of knowing his way around the public service, knowing how it works and how civil servants operate. It is also wrong to assume that public servants are hostile to the concept of an Ombudsman. Many public servants have to work under rules and procedures that are outmoded and outdated, frustrating to operate and not necessarily in the public interest. In many cases the intervention of the Ombudsman is welcomed by public servants because it forces changes — changes that are as welcome to the civil servants as they are to the public. It is regrettable that Mr. Murphy has emerged as a nominee of the Government rather than as a choice of this House, but rather than rush to premature judgment people should give him an opportunity to put his mark on the job just as Mr. Mills did. He has a distinguished record of public service and there is nothing to suggest that he will not carry out the functions of the office of Ombudsman in the best manner possible.

I will say a few words to give my friend, Deputy Mitchell, time to draw his breath. Deputy Enda Kenny raised a matter arising from my speech on the passport affair, specifically the question of——

I would be pleased if the Deputy would avoid referring to that affair.

I will not refer to it, Sir. I was referring to the fact that apparently the Department of Justice operates the business investment scheme in a discriminatory manner in so far as Chinese or those from the Indian subcontinent are concerned.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is straying from the point.

I am not straying from the point. I am referring to the operation by the Civil Service of a scheme put in place by this House.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is speaking on the motion on the Ombudsman.

I am asking the Ombudsman——

Acting Chairman

The Deputy has just one minute.

If the Chair keeps interrupting me I will not have that one minute. I concur with Deputy Enda Kenny that it is appropriate that the Ombudsman should investigate the procedures in the Department of Justice wherby foreign nationals appear to be discriminated against on the basis of race or colour. That is a legitimate contribution in the context of this motion. It is most regrettable that the document I put on record yesterday ruled out participation in the scheme by nationals of Chinese origin or from the Indian subcontinent. That is a disgrace. Apart from whatever else the Chair would not permit me to say——

Acting Chairman

The Deputy has not time to stray.

I appreciate that the Chair may have been given very strict riding instructions and I do not wish to take issue with him as it is an awkward situation. I am not going into detail of how the Taoiseach's business profited from a decision by Cabinet, I am merely raising the race angle and the procedures in the Department of Justice. It is not acceptable that the Department of Justice's interpretation of the scheme discriminates against people on the basis of race or colour. That is a legitimate area for the Ombudsman to investigate and to establish why such procedures have been put in place and why the Minister for Justice of the day should acquiesce to such discriminatory procedures.

The manner in which the Government has handled the appointment of the Ombudsman is regrettable. Parliament is supposed to have a say in the appointment of the Ombudsman and effectively it has been gazumped. The Government has undermined the role of Parliament and has encroached on its role. This is not a good thing.

The manner in which we make appointments to important positions is seriously deficient. Anonymous personalities, whose views and track record are not known to Members never mind the public, are being appointed to major positions. I know some people know a great deal about Mr. Murphy, and quite honestly anything I know about him is good, but I do not know his personal views on the efficiency and effectiveness of the public service. Likewise an anonymous personality has been appointed Governor of the Central Bank, and this appointment to a very major position has been made without the public knowing his track record or his personal views, even though his personal views could impinge on the daily lives of people. For example, his views on interest rates and the exchange rate would impact on the prospects of business, but his personal views on these matters are unknown.

The personal views of public servants are unknown because in public they express only views of the Minister and the Department. When public servants are to be appointed to positions such as Ombudsman, Governor of the Central Bank or Chief Justice, their personal views and their track record are vitally important. I submit that we should have given the lead. We should have an appointments committee where nominees are put through a rigorous cross-examination of their track record and fitness for the position to which they are being nominated. We have to put an end to the method of appointment being resorted to by the Government on this occasion.

If we want to improve performance in the public sector we need much greater accountability; but the reality is that there is far too little accountability and, certainly in positions which are defined by law as independent, there is no accountability. I have consistently raised the difference between independence and accountability, the need to make independent offices accountable so that their performance can be evaluated. The position of Chief Justice will be filled shortly. It is vitally important that Members and the public know the views of the nominee before he is appointed to that position, but we will not have any say. Similarly, we do not have a say in the appointment of Ombudsman, the Governor of the Central Bank and other positions, such as chief executives of semi-State companies, the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Garda Commissioner and the Army Chief of Staff. All appointments to these major positions should be the subject of scrutiny by this House. I would go further and include also Secretaries and Assistant Secretaries of Government Departments as well as Ambassadors.

This House has been reduced to a cipher, because effectively we have no say in most matters. Appointments are being made willy nilly. Once a person has been appointed, there is no prospect of dismissal and therefore they do not have to perform. The main duty of Parliament is to ensure that the Government and its agencies are held accountable, that both are kept on their toes and perform. That role has been denied to this House. This Government is not the only one which has done that, but this practice has emerged and our democracy, economy and people are the poorer for it. If we are serious about parliamentary reform, redressing the major problem of cynicism about politics and politicians among so many of our people, we should ensure that Parliament is much more relevant than it is, particularly in respect of such important appointments. I am aware that some of my suggestions may involve changes in our Constitution but we are prepared to contemplate other changes to it. Why will we not contemplate the necessary changes in our Constitution to give the House the effective say it should have on behalf of the people it is elected to represent? It is thoroughly unsatisfactory that people about whom little is known are appointed to senior positions. They may have been senior civil or public servants for a long time, but little is known about their personal attributes.

Regarding Mr. Kevin Murphy's nomination I have known him for a long time, he was a distinguished Secretary of the Department of the Public Service before it was abolished, but I do not know anything about his attitudes to the many deficiencies in the public sector. I wonder whether it is appropriate for a senior public servant to become the referee of the public service. It is rather like the appointments Henry VIII made to the Archbishopric of Canterbury — he put in his own man. There is a danger we are doing that in this case despite Mr. Murphy's very good personal qualities. This House has not had an opportunity to establish whether Mr. Murphy will have the independence of mind and commitment to ensure that the Office of Ombudsman remains independent of the Executive and will perform in the manner expected by parliament. I criticise the Government for its handling of this matter. I understand what happened. Three senior people in the Department of Finance were looking for promotion, only one could be appointed Secretary of the Department of Finance and one appointed Governor of the Central Bank but as three people were in the running they seized this parliamentary position. In Britain the Ombudsman is called the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration to signify he is a parliamentary officer not a government officer. The Government should be ashamed of itself for encroaching on the territory of the Dáil and all parties in the Dáil should have been consulted in regard to the nomination.

I thank Deputies for their contributions. On appointment Mr. Murphy will cease to be a civil servant. I wish to clarify that point as a number of Deputies have said he will remain one.

Once a priest always a priest.

No. I was amused listening to the debate. Is it not the case that in the Deputy's profession solicitors and barristers end up getting the higher positions in the courts, and in effect are judge and jury in the land?

Every barrister commits a professional misconduct if he is not prepared to act on either side of both cases, that is the difference.

Is it not the case that the Attorney General could be a senior counsel in government today and in the courts tomorrow?

That is the problem.

Is this position not similar?

He is supposed to be independent.

When Mr. Murphy takes up the appointment he will no longer be a civil servant. The major advantage is that he will not be required to play two roles, his only role will be that of Ombudsman. I acknowledge that the remarks made about him by Deputy McDowell and others did not refer to his personal position. His functions as Ombudsman are clearly laid down. Anyone who knows Mr. Kevin Murphy, and I know many Members have had dealings with him, will be aware of his knowledge of the public service sector and his views on reform. He is probably a unique senior civil servant in that he was appointed to senior positions by Governments made up of different parties, namely Fianna Fáil, Labour, Progressive Democrats and Fine Gael. More than most public servants his views are well known. As part of his duties he will have to deal with civil and public servants whose actions may not always have been in line with public interest, but he never shirked from addressing those problems. I have never in my dealings with him, or other senior figures in Departments in which I served, seen him intimidated or avoid pulling any punches. He has always managed to handle his position extremely well.

The fact that an Ombudsman has a particular background does not mean that he is not able to deal with various difficulties. Until recently our Governor of the European Investment Bank was a civil servant. Recently, I changed the conditions applying to that position because a former Member of the Oireachtas, Professor Hillery, who had excellent qualifications, having had a banking career and acted as consultant for various banks, took up that appointment. I agree with Deputy McDowell in that I would not like to see positions hogged or held by certain people. I was fearful that I would be berated in the House for appointing a politician, but I commend the House for not doing that.

Deputy Mitchell referred to the parliamentary commissioner in the United Kingdom. He is a former civil servant. I understand our DPP is a former civil servant and that post is held by civil servants in other European countries.

I do not disagree with the point that there should be consultation.

Why was there no consultation?

I checked the consultation when Mr. Mills was appointed. It involved the former Taoiseach, Charles Haughey, and Leader of the Opposition at the time being told of the appointment. We followed the same consultation procedure in this appointment. It is regrettable that Deputy Mitchell said the only reason Kevin Murphy was appointed to the position is that he could not get another appointment. Kevin Murphy who probably might have left the Civil Service shortly because his seven year term is up would have had no difficulty in picking up a senior position. There was no financial gain for him in this position.

I accept that.

I understand he will lose money by taking the post. Accepting the point that consultation is a good thing, the reason the two-thirds rule was dropped related to some constitutional difficulty. I would have to check back, but I read that on the file some months ago.

That was pretty lousy advice, whoever put it in.

Apparently that is why it was dropped back in 1980.

I can see where it came from. I withdraw what I said.

It was on the record and I saw it when reading the file. In recommending Mr. Kevin Murphy, I acknowledge the contributions of everyone who spoke today. We are not arguing about his abilities; he is a man who is widely known. I know Deputy Mitchell did not really mean what he said — he actually "appointed" him to the Central Bank this morning. Deputy Mitchell was also a member of the Government who appointed him to senior positions. I am sure the Government and other parties will see Kevin Murphy proving to be a very successful Ombudsman in years to come.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 32.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hilliard, Colm M.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • Moffat, Tom.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Eamon.
  • Walsh, Joe.

CLASS="CP">Níl

  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John. (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Mitchell, Jim..
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Yates, Ivan.
CLASS="CP">Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Browne(Carlow-Kilkenny).
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn