Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 21 Jun 1994

Vol. 444 No. 1

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 4a on a Supplementary Order Paper, 18, 6 and 7. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) business shall be interrupted at 12.00 midnight; (2) the sitting shall be suspended at 6.30 p.m. for 30 minutes; (3) the proceedings on the Committee and remaining Stages of No. 18, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.15 p.m. by one Question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Health; (4) the Second Stage of No. 6 shall be taken today and the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the debate; (i) the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 10.30 p.m. tonight; (ii) the speech of each Member called upon shall not exceed 15 minutes; and (iii) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon not later than 10.15 p.m. to make a speech in reply and (5) the Second Stage of No. 7 shall be taken today and the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the debate; (i) the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 12.00 midnight; (ii) the speech of each Member called upon shall not exceed 15 minutes; and (iii) a Minister or a Minister of State shall be called upon not later than 11.45 p.m. to make a speech in reply.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 25.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal that business be interrupted at 12 midnight satisfactory?

Proinsias De Rossa

I seek your guidance, Sir, in relation to items Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 and 4a since there is no provision in the orders before us on how those items are to be dealt with. Usually when reports are presented by committees to the House there is an order to the effect that they will be taken without debate. The inference has always been that without that stipulation, there could be a debate on them. Can you, a Cheann Comhairle, guide me as to whether it is intended to have a debate on items Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 and 4a?

An Ceann Comhairle

I wish to intervene to advise the Deputy that the items referred to by him are in the main announcements for the information of the House. No debate arises thereon.

Proinsias De Rossa

This appears to be a new procedure.

An Ceann Comhairle

They are reports of committees.

Proinsias De Rossa

I accept they are reports of committees. Consistently since these committees were established and these reports were introduced to the House it was stipulated that they would be taken without debate. I have a particular objection to item No. 4 being presented to this House, first, because we do not have a copy of the report and, second, because it is a report of a committee meeting at which the Minister for Social Welfare refused information to members of the committee on expenditure on social welfare.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to take up that matter at another time and, perhaps, in another forum.

Proinsias De Rossa

I sought to raise this matter in the committee and the Minister refused the information.

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot help the Deputy.

Proinsias De Rossa

I wish to object strongly to this report being taken now and to the Minister continuing to refuse the information.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point but he is referring to another matter.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am referring to item No. 4.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry Deputy, I cannot allow this to continue. I have advised the Deputy how to proceed.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Chair will hear me; I am about to conclude. I am referring to item No. 4 on the Order Paper. The Chair said this is simply an announcement that reports are being placed before the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is so.

Proinsias De Rossa

We do not have those reports so they are not being placed before the House. This is nonsense.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am responsible for these matters. The question before us is that business be interrupted at midnight. Is that agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that the sitting be suspended at 6.30 p.m for 30 minutes? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 18 satisfactory and agreed?

Mr. E. Kenny

Due to the important debate on TEAM Aer Lingus the House has lost more than one hour in respect of item No. 18, the Health Insurance Bill, 1994. As some Deputies consider it will not be practical to take the Committee and remaining Stages of the Dún Laoghaire Harbour Bill tomorrow evening, would it be possible to allocate that time to the Health Insurance Bill?

An Ceann Comhairle

I appreciate we have lost some time in respect of our schedule.

The Taoiseach

On the matter raised by Deputy Kenny, an effort should be made to find time this evening. I will leave it to the Whips to try to find additional time this evening because of the over-run of the previous debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Whips might examine the matter. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 18 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 6 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 7 agreed? Agreed.

Mrs. Owens

I am sure the Chair will allow me to raise the following issue. On behalf of the Fine Gael Party I would like to send our warmest congratulations to Jack Charlton and the Irish team on their wonderful victory on Saturday and for the pleasure they gave so many Irish people at home and abroad. I know they will do us proud in the remaining matches and we wish them well. I want also to raise another issue on the Order of Business. It is now widely accepted that the report of the beef tribunal will be published before the end of June. Can the Taoiseach reaffirm to the House his commitment of last week to give ample time, before the summer recess, to debate this report?

The Taoiseach

The first matter raised by Deputy Owen was dealt with adequately earlier. I will not speculate on when the report will become available but as soon as it does — as the Deputy says in the next week or so — of course we will have a debate here. If the Deputy has information that I do not have that is fair enough. The Deputy can take it that this House will have ample time to debate the contents of that report.

Mrs. Owen

Will the Taoiseach clarify——

An Ceann Comhairle

No, Deputy. I am calling Deputy Harney.

Mrs. Owen

——that it will not be left for three or four months before we get that debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not ignore me in this fashion. I ask her to please obey the Chair.

Mrs. Owen

The Taoiseach has not made it clear as to when it will be debated.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can raise the matter again in some other way.

Miss Harney

I passed my congratulations during Question Time to the Irish team. Will the Taoiseach follow the precedent of his predecessor by bringing the Leaders of the Opposition parties with him to see the Irish team play if they advance to the next round? In view of the atrocity in Northern Ireland at the weekend and the tit-for-tat killings during recent days may I ask the Taoiseach if the Government will be prepared to make time available next week, after his meeting with Mr. Major, to discuss Northern Ireland?

An Ceann Comhairle

I hesitate to rule against the Deputy.

The Taoiseach

I said in the House today that the meeting with the British Prime Minister, Mr. Major, at the weekend will merely update the position. I doubt whether it would constitute the basis for a debate next week.

An Ceann Comhairle

This should not lead to argument, Deputy Harney.

Miss Harney

We have not debated Northern Ireland here since 15 December 1993 when the Downing Street Declaration was accepted. It is important, given what happened and the political vacuum that exists, that we should have a debate in the House before the recess.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are ample ways and means of raising the matter. I appreciate the recess has been talked about.

Miss Harney

I would like the Taoiseach to consider what I am saying because my party, at the Whips meeting, will be seeking to have such a debate.

The Taoiseach

I will come before the House as normal with a full report on the Summit.

Proinsias De Rossa

I would like to put on record, as have other party leaders and, indeed the Taoiseach, my serious concern about the further massacres that took place in Northern Ireland. I sought to raise the Loughinisland massacre by way of Private Notice Question but it was ruled out of order. In view of the very grave concern about the deteriorating situation there, is the Taoiseach considering any new security initiatives in relation to Northern Ireland and, if so, can he indicate to the House what they might be? Can be indicate how soon the framework document will be available given that this is necessary if the current political vacuum is to be filled?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should relate his question to some proposed legislation. Clearly he is not doing so and therefore the matter he is adverting to is not in order.

Proinsias De Rossa

I appreciate there are rules in this House but there are also very serious matters outside of this House which do not always fit into the rules for dealing with business here.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have to dissuade certain Members of the notion that they can raise anything they wish on the Order of Business; clearly they cannot.

Proinsias De Rossa

I appreciate that, a Cheann Comhairle. I tried through the procedures of this House to raise this matter by way of Private Notice Question and it was ruled out.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy received a reply from my office.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am now availing of the only other opportunity I will have today to seek information from the Taoiseach with regard to any political or security measures he may be considering with the British Prime Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point, the matter cannot be debated now.

Proinsias De Rossa

On a point of order, I think I am in order in raising such a serious matter on the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle

In accordance with our Standing Orders you are not.

Proinsias De Rossa

Surely, a Cheann Comhairle, you have the right to exercise discretion.

An Ceann Comhairle

If you feel the Standing Orders are not appropriate to our business do seek to amend them and I will be happy to apply them in the ordinary way.

Mr. Deasy

When is it proposed to take item No. 24 on today's Order Paper?

The Taoiseach

When the committee reports to the House we will make that decision.

Mr. Deasy

Can the Taoiseach give a guarantee that the Government will not reverse the brilliant amendment tabled by Deputy Sheehan on Friday?

Mrs. Owen

It was carried——

Mr. G. Mitchell

In view of the fact that the security position north and south of the Border is worrying and the number of gardaí is 500 less than the authorised strength of the force, will the Taoiseach bring forward a token Estimate for his Department or the Department of Justice so that we can debate this matter which is of great concern?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can pursue that matter through the normal channels in accordance with our rules and regulations.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Is it in order for me to ask the Taoiseach to bring forward a token Estimate so that we can discuss these matters which are urgent and of grave concern to all sides of the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is there any such proposal?

The Taoiseach

No. The taking of Estimates is always a matter for discussion between the Whips.

Mr. Rabbitte

On a number of occasions the Taoiseach undertook to publish the electoral reform Bill with the Ethics in Public Office Bill. Do I get the impression that the Government has abandoned the electoral reform Bill or intends to publish it in a truncated fashion?

The Taoiseach

I have said in the House that it is the Government's intention to take the two Bills in tandem. It does not necessarily follow that they will be published at the same time. We are not abandoning that Bill.

Mr. Rabbitte

When will it be published?

The Taoiseach

As soon as it is completed and ready for publication.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Rabbitte

Do we have any idea when that will be? Will it be this term?

The Taoiseach

Hopefully.