Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Dec 1995

Vol. 459 No. 8

Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1995: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Mr. Jacob

I am grateful to my colleague, Deputy Woods, for sharing his time with me. I compliment the Minister on introducing this timely legislation which has been described as minimalist. It is clear, however, that the Minister has given much thought to the matter and she mentioned that she took the needs of shoppers and families into consideration in its preparation. I was impressed and commend her for it.

The abuse and overuse of alcohol can, as many speakers have said, lead to misery and tragedy. That message must be emphasised by Members from every available forum at all times. The Minister mentioned that Garda enforcement of the drink driving laws, particularly over the Christmas period, would obtain. That is to be welcomed and commended.

The Minister was praised for her pragmatic approach to this legislation. I agree but we must be equally pragmatic in our approach to drinking and to the drinking industry. As Deputy O'Donnell stated earlier, that industry has major implications for our economy. It was suggested by my good friend and colleague. Deputy O'Donoghue, that closing time on Christmas Eve should be at 10 p.m. I do not disagree with my colleague very often, but on this occasion I am diametrically opposed to his suggestion, which would be a retrograde step. In tourism terms our licensing laws are regarded as overly restrictive by our colleagues in Europe. A move to change closing time on Christmas Eve to 10 p.m. would have the effect of bringing us back to the Dark Ages in tourism terms.

Our drinking public has become very resourceful and I speak from experience of all sides on that subject. This Minister and previous Ministers for Justice prevailed upon the drinking public to be more responsible and enforced licensing laws by way of legislation and intense Garda activity. That has encouraged people to be more resourceful. For example, at Christmas time one member of a group may not drink alcohol or a taxi may be provided to bring people home. That is evidence of people's resourcefulness and responsibility. I am strongly of the view that we should not go down the road of introducing further restrictions in this area.

Regarding the equal status Bill to which my colleague, Deputy Woods, referred, time does not permit me to deal with it in satisfactory detail. I take Deputy Upton's point that the Bill is not published, but its vibes have given rise to deep concern not only to publicans or those in the licensed trade, but to the butcher, the banker and the candlestick maker. Many aspects of the forthcoming legislation are welcome, commendable and essential, but the suggestion that there may be an interference with the right to refuse to serve a member of the public is unacceptable, undesirable and unworkable and must be removed. The best way to do that is to remove the provision prior to the introduction of the legislation. That aspect of the legislation should be seriously examined and in the context of the detail expressed by my colleague, Deputy Woods. I am sure we will all have an opportunity to discuss this matter when the Bill is introduced and I hope when it is introduced it will be conspicuous by the absence of a provision in that regard.

I compliment the Minister for introducing this pragmatic and timely legislation.

Mr. Flanagan

I wish to share my time with Deputy Ring.

Acting Chairman

That is agreed.

Mr. Flanagan

I will be brief as the time schedule is such that all Members who wish to contribute will not have an opportunity to do so. I was interested in Deputy Jacob's contribution as he spoke from experience. I note my colleague, Deputy Foxe, is limbering up on the sideline.

I wish to refer to the concept of the off-licence and the need for the Department of Justice and the Minister to give early consideration to the operation of off-licences under the Licensing Acts and within her jurisdiction. It is time the law was updated. The 1882 Act or the 1902 Act bear little relevance to supermarket shopping in the latter part of this century. The existing legislation does not cater for off-licences in the manner in which it should.

The trading hours for off-licences in supermarkets are governed on an ad hoc basis depending on the attitude of the superintendent in the Garda division concerned. That is regrettable and underlines the need for uniformity in this area. The craziness of the off-licence system is illustrated by reference to the granting of off-licences to premises in the conurbation of north Kildare and west Dublin. In recent times new off-licences have been granted to premises in Celbridge, Lucan and Maynooth, but it is not possible to make an application for a new off-licence in Leixlip because the Minister for the Environment has extended the new boundary by granting town commission status to Leixlip. That is an example of problems posed by the outmoded laws governing off-licences.

The Minister suggested that a Dáil Committee might consider this matter next year and that may be worthwhile, but we need to set target dates by which licensing laws will be reformed. The area of off-licensing, on-licensing, beer wholesalers and retailers is an area of huge complexity and has been the subject of discussion for many years. A body should be established immediately, including officials from the Department of Justice and appropriate experts from the retail area, to consider the current application of the law and the need to introduce an appropriate programme of reform enacted by way of legislation within the lifetime of the Government.

Mr. Ring

I thank Deputy Flanagan for sharing his time with me. I compliment the Minister on introducing this Bill. I wrote to her a number of weeks ago about Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve and St. Patrick's Day, all of which will fall on a Sunday and the six day licence holders. The Minister in this Bill should have legislated for everybody, not just for the big supermarkets. There should be provisions for six day licence holders, who cannot open on Sundays. Because Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve and St. Patrick's Day will fall on a Sunday six day licence holders should have been included in this legislation.

If I was not a member of a Government party and a free vote was allowed I would oppose this Bill. I was in business for 22 years and understand how business works. The small shopkeepers should get the business that arises because Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday. If I was the Minister for Justice I would not allow supermarkets sell drink. That should be left to the licensed premises and the sale of groceries should be left to the grocery business.

I hope there is not a hidden agenda here. I will never support Sunday trading. People have six days per week in which to work. Sunday should be a day of rest, prayer, sport or whatever. There is not a necessity for big supermarkets to open on Sundays. Let the small shopkeeper in Ballina, Kiltimagh or Westport have their day. They have to live too. They have paid the PRSI and taxes and the State should protect them, not the larger supermarkets who are well able to protect themselves. I will bitterly oppose Sunday trading. I understand and support the reason the Minister introduced this Bill to facilitate housewives who may want to shop at supermarkets on Christmas Eve. I have nothing against drink but it is time this House established a committee representing Government, publicans, parents and everybody involved with a view to tackling the serious problem of under age drinking. It is not the responsibility of publicans — though the law states it is — it is the responsibility of the parents and the people. In America or London a party or a night out is from 8 p.m. to perhaps 11 o'clock whereas here a party commences at 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. and people are unable to work the next day. On the last occasion I spoke on this topic. Deputy Fox defended the management of licensed premises. My uncle has been in the pub business all his life and I know a little about it having often worked a Sunday or a Sunday night for him.

I welcome the Bill in principle but I am concerned about Sunday trading and hope major supermarkets will not be allowed to open on Sundays. I hope the Government introduces legislation to curb that as quickly as it introduced this legislation. I am pleased to note legislation could be introduced so quickly to appease the big supermarkets. What about the small shopkeepers? They have a part to play in society. They are finding things very difficult. It would not have been wrong on this occasion if we allowed the small shopkeepers have some business on Sundays.

The six day licence holders cannot open on a Sunday. If shops and supermarkets are to be allowed to open on Christmas Eve for Sunday hours I appeal to the Minister, at this late stage, to allow the six day licence holders to open on Christmas Eve. If a concession is being made for the supermarkets it should be made for them also. We are here to legislate for everybody. In the past some older premises had a seven day licence but when the pub passed on to a son or daughter there may have been difficulties with licensing laws. I am not a solicitor but I gather it is difficult to get a licence moved from a premises at the top of the town to the bottom unless the licensed property is rendered derelict.

It would be wrong not to provide for the six day licence holders and to include the Dunnes and the Quinnsworths.

Mr. O'Dea

I wish to share my time with Deputy John Browne, Wexford.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. O'Dea

The purpose of the Bill, as the explanatory memorandum states, is to:

...allow shops and supermarkets which are licensed to sell intoxicating liquor by retail and other licensed premises to remain open on Christmas Eve or 23rd December in any year that either day falls on a Sunday, as if it was a weekday.

I take Deputy Ring's last point that it is extraordinary, in view of the pressing need for reform of the law and the paucity of law reforming measures introduced by the Government in the past 12 months, that this Bill, consisting of seven sections, providing for all eventualities, could be prepared at short notice. While I support the Bill it is extremely narrow legislation, designed to meet a specific problem.

While there is a need for a radical overhaul of the licensing legislation, I accept this Bill is not the place in which to do it. I regret the opportunity was not taken to correct a few of the more arcane features in licensing laws. I will give a few examples.

I support what my colleague, Deputy Woods, said about the rumoured impending proposals from the Department of Equality and Law Reform. I and my party are opposed to discrimination in all forms. If the rumours we hear are correct, then the asinine proposals from the Department of Equality and Law Reform will not eradicate discrimination but will introduce a number of grave injustices. As I understand it, the basic proposal is that people, including publicans, whom we are discussing in the context of this Bill, will have to give reasons for refusing to serve people. That means, in effect — as outlined by Deputy Woods — that every publican to avoid being hauled before the courts, will be forced to open his or her premises and serve drunks, drug pushers, pimps, prostitutes and miscreants of every shape and description.

Mrs. Owen

That law is still there.

Mr. O'Dea

One has to give a reason for refusal. As Deputy O'Donoghue said if he cannot give a reason the publican can be dragged before the courts for libel and presumably there will be a sanction in the legislation. It does not take much reflection, a legal genius or a person with a lifetime's experience in the licensed trade to know that if that legislation is introduced in the format rumoured, it will cause grave injustice from one end of the country to the other. It will also make publicans vulnerable to instant violent retaliation in some cases. I do not have to spell out the problems faced by a publican who does not want to serve a person who is drunk and obviously violent. If he is forced to give a reason and say, "I will not serve you because I think you are drunk and violent" one can imagine what will happen in many instances.

What is even stranger is that legislation of that nature would conflict directly with a publican's obligation to obey other laws for which there is very good reason, for example, the law against serving under age persons. A publican who says to a person who may not be under age, "I will not serve you because I think you are under age" is effectively saying, "you are the type of under age person who comes into my premises and demands drink". This could leave the publican open to a libel action and it will certainly leave him open to an action if a sanction is built into the legislation. As the Minister well knows, people do not carry their birth certificates in their pockets and we do not have an indentity card system, which we should have. However, that is a debate for another day.

If measures are put in place — I am sure the Minister is sympathetic to these — to prevent people colluding in the supply and distribution of drugs on their premises, then the law which says a reason must be given for refusal to serve or entertain a person in a pub would conflict directly with it. There is a very good reason for the former legislation, that is we do not want to turn pubs into havens or centres for the distribution of drugs such as ecstasy. If we want to strengthen the law in this area then it is ludicrous to introduce legislation which will force publicans not to comply because of the risk of being hauled before the courts.

Deputy Woods has clearly outlined my party's position on the issue. I urge the Minister to ask the Taoiseach and her Government colleagues to remove this legal sword of Damocles hanging over the heads of worried publicans and make a statement before Christmas that these ludicrous proposals will be consigned to the scrap heap and they will be allowed to remain in control of their premises. It is not a question of a large political lobby, rather it is a question of people who are genuinely worried about their livelihoods and responsibilities and the management and control of their premises. It is only fair, proper and just for the Government to reassure not only publicans but the owners of other retail outlets that this proposal in its rumoured form will not be inflicted on them. Some weeks ago the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs gave a promise that this matter would be discussed by the Select Committee on Legislation and Security before the legislation was enacted. To date we have heard no more about the matter. A promise is a promise and I ask the Minister to say in her reply when that discussion will take place.

A serious and radical re-examination of our liquor licensing laws is long overdue. As things stand, the dice is loaded unfairly against ordinary publicans. For example, clubs can apply for a late night exemption — each club is entitled to 15 late night exemptions per annum. In cities such as Limerick which have dozens of licensed clubs this means that several clubs legally sell alcohol after ordinary closing hours every night of the week. The right to purchase alcohol in pubs is supposedly confined to members. This attempted safeguard has become nothing other than a sick joke. The law states that members can bring in guests to clubs but guests cannot purchase a drink for themselves, it has to be purchased for them by the member. This restriction has never been obeyed and, as the Minister will appreciate, is basically unenforceable. A busy barman in a club cannot question, and invariably never does, whether a person who asks for a drink is a member. Clubs get around the law by using the transparent device of requiring people to sign a book at the door on the way into the club which means they automatically become members and are thereby entitled to all the privileges of membership, including the right to purchase alcohol.

Mrs. Owen

That applies mainly to gentlemen's clubs.

Mr. O'Dea

We want to get rid of discrimination and there will be no more of those clubs after the enactment of the equal status legislation.

Licensees who manage to obtain a restaurant certificate also have an unfair advangage over ordinary publicans. The holder of a restaurant certificate is entitled to apply for late night exemptions — that is the reason for getting the certificate in the first place — and while they have to pay for this privilege they invariably get their money back by imposing a cover charge at the door. The law states that a person cannot obtain a restaurant certificate unless their main business consists bona fide of the supply of food. This provision is almost totally ignored. Sometimes local court officials make a half hearted attempt to enforce this aspect of the law and on very rare occasions a certificate is refused, denied or not continued as a result of an investigation. However, this happens on rare occasions only and the stark reality is that many, if not most, of these establishments operate in blatant breach of the law. I have carried out research in this area and I would go so far as to say that if the law was strictly enforced 70 per cent of night-clubs would have to shut their doors. The main business of the 70 per cent of night-clubs is not to sell food. Yet they continually apply for, and receive from the court, a restaurant certificate on the basis that the sale of food is their main source of income.

It is extraordinary to think that the State is turning a blind eye to this practice and operating a deliberate policy of non-enforcement. The State is in effect colluding in illegality in every town and city virtually on a nightly basis. I understand that the late night venues in Leeson Street have made no attempt even to pretend that their main business consists of the supply of food. They operate in blatant breach of the law, yet the State has made no attempt to interfere.

One of the criteria which must be observed in order to justify the granting of an exemption for the after hours sale of alcohol to premises with a restaurant certificate which also have a dance licence is that they serve "a substantial meal", which is defined as a meal costing not less than £2. That provision has become meaningless with inflation. One could not buy a bag of chips for £2 in the more up market chippers in Limerick.

Mrs. Owen

Limerick must be a very expensive city.

Mr. O'Dea

I will not mention the names here in case people think I am advertising them.

Mrs. Owen

If the Deputy goes out to Malahide he will get a bag of chips for 70p.

Mr. O'Dea

Surely the opportunity could have been taken in this Bill, narrow though it may be, to redefine what a substantial meal means in this context. There is nothing to prevent the Minister from doing this and I urge her to give consideration to this proposal. I am amazed the Government did not avail of the opportunity under the legislation to amend that glaring anomaly. It could easily have done so if it had any desire to enforce the law. However, the truth seems to be the opposite.

Mrs. Owen

I am dealing with Christmas Eve of this year, not Christmas Eve in the year 2001.

Mr. O'Dea

These mainly illegal operations are of substantial benefit to the Exchequer, which apparently is the Government's paramount consideration. If the State wishes to level the playing pitch between ordinary vintners and people with special restaurant certificates it should ensure that the law is enforced in relation to the sale of alcohol in clubs. In addition, it should consider allowing ordinary publicans to apply to the court for late night exemptions on payment of an excise fee. The fee could be graded according to such factors as locations, turnover, the extent of the exemption and the number of nights for which it is sought.

Alternatively, the Government could take the much more radical step of relaxing our licensing laws, because they are having an adverse effect on foreign tourism. The projected employment creation figures show that we are becoming more dependent on foreign tourists in creating jobs and in that context the licensing laws must be examined as a matter of priority. We are sufficiently mature as a country that we do not need the law to protect us from ourselves. However, I do not expect the Government to take these radical measures. The Irish Times this morning described its performance as unexciting and dull——

Mrs. Owen

Dull but there. The Deputy may have been exciting but he is not in power.

Mr. O'Dea

——so I do not expect an outbreak of radicalism. Nevertheless the Minister should urgently consider a radical shake up of our licensing laws——

Mrs. Owen

I told the Deputy how to do it.

Mr. O'Dea

——as they are a disincentive to tourism, unnecessarily take up Garda time and have a number of other attendant problems. I could go on but I wish to allow my good friend and colleague Deputy Browne to speak.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford): I welcome this narrowly focussed legislation which deals with one specific issue. Perhaps it is time to examine seriously all our liquor laws, especially pub opening hours, as mentioned by Deputy O'Dea, and under age drinking. Our pub opening hours are no longer acceptable, especially in the summer when we are trying to encourage tourism. This year I spent some of my holiday in Deputy O'Donoghue's constituency——

Mr. O'Donoghue

A wise decision.

Mr. Browne

(Wexford):—— and in Clare. By 11.30 p.m., visitors were being pushed onto the streets and told to go home. We must consider pub opening hours at some stage in the future. We must also consider the new anti-discrimination measures which were mentioned a number of times today. While we are not dealing with that issue now the Minister should be aware that we stongly feel those laws are not acceptable.

Publicans should be responsible with regard to under age drinking. I have been concerned about this for some time because a certain percentage of publicans are flouting the law in this area. Every summer when the leaving and junior certificate results are released, teenagers are to be found drunk and disorderly on the streets. There is no point in saying they get the drink elsewhere, they are being served by publicans. This matter must also be examined.

I would not fully agree with Deputy O'Dea about clubs. I am chairman of a GAA club in Enniscorthy which has bar and lounge facilities and is run on a strict basis, in line with how the publicans in the town run their businesses. The laws are not flouted, there are no late openings and no questionable meals are served. A myth has been put about that all GAA clubs, soccer clubs and golf clubs with bars and lounges are flouting the law. I do not agree — they are behaving responsibly and those in charge are running them well. There may be problems in Dublin but that is not the case in rural areas.

While this Bill is welcome the Minister must bring to the House in the near future legislation dealing with the wider aspects of the liquor laws so that pubs will be more accessible and it will be easier to attract tourists. When one goes abroad one can have a drink late at night or early in the morning but in Ireland people are put out on the streets at 11.30 p.m. I ask the Minister seriously to consider these points so that the House can have a meaningful input into what would be the best licensing laws for the future.

Mr. O'Dea

I wish to make clear I was talking about midnight discos in connection with dubious meals, etc.

Mrs. Owen

Not GAA clubs.

Mr. O'Dea

I would not like to be misrepresented, even by colleagues.

Miss Flaherty

The Deputy is afraid the word will spread.

Mrs. Owen

I can see a circular going around Limerick GAA clubs.

Mr. O'Dea

I look after the Limerick GAA clubs, they have looked after me.

Mr. T. Foxe

I welcome the Bill. The Minister must be complimented on introducing it at this point in the year as it is most timely. Unlike many Bills it will be put into effect within a matter of days of being passed.

The abuse of alcohol was mentioned by Members. Some people do abuse it but today's youth are for more mature than they are credited. In respect of the Garda checkpoints at Christmas and throughout the year, young people have a more mature approach than their predecessors some 25 to 30 years ago. One member of a group will stay off alcohol or they will hire taxis — that trade has developed considerably in rural areas in the last few years. It might not have been to the good of the publican that the laws to control drink driving were introduced but taxi men have benefited and are providing a good service. It is also heartening that it is young people who make most use of taxi services. When discussing death on the roads more emphasis could be put on controlling speed. Alcohol plays its part, but perhaps not as much as we think. Speed is a far greater culprit in that regard.

Under age drinking is a problem but publicans are not the only people who sell alcohol. Supermarkets do also. Many young people who obtain drink and perhaps become drunk are not served in pubs; their source of drink is supermarkets and off-licences. Perhaps this could be looked at more closely from the licensing perspective.

In certain parts of the country, such as Roscommon, there is an identity card system. It operates in most of the towns and is fairly effective, although if a person took his drinking seriously he could get around the ID system. However, it is a start. We should consider introducing it to every town in the county and perhaps in the country.

It was suggested that the Minister should stipulate that closing time on Christmas Eve should be 10 p.m. The Deputy who said that should remove it from his script when supplying it to the local newspapers in Kerry if he wants to be back here after the next election. I agree with the Deputy who suggested that the six-day licence holders should get the benefit on this occasion since the Minister was sufficiently generous to facilitate publicans.

Debate adjourned.