Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 25 Jan 1996

Vol. 460 No. 5

Adjournment Debate. - Custodial Accommodation for Young Offenders.

Mr. Lawlor

It gives me no pleasure to come this evening to raise this matter which was the basis of widespread coverage in a recent edition of the Evening Herald under the headline “Thug gets four years — and walks free”. A large section of the community in Blanchardstown in my constituency is, to say the least, bewildered at what has happened. An underage offender who was found guilty of in excess of 40 crimes was sentenced to four years by a judge who stated:

...when I find somebody before me again purely because the executive failed in providing places for these people.

I perform my function. I sentence when guilty. I'm afraid the executive has not performed its function by not providing places.

The report stated: "The Department also admitted that in a recent six-month period there had been `approximately 100 instances of juveniles being turned away." It went on to state:

An angry garda officer said today: "The whole thing is pointless. He [the person concerned] knows the system cannot cope. Nowhere is safe from him — cars, houses, post offices... anywhere. He is stealing to order and at this stage has a ready market. But he could be dangerous. He would do anything to get away if cornered."

His freedom has outraged the Blanchardstown community who fear it could lead to a tragedy. Local people have been his victims and furious residents say they are sick and tired of him terrorising them and destroying property.

"He is making life sheer hell for families. He is bringing undesirables into the estate and is basically doing everything and anything to cause trouble" said one concerned resident.

The Minister should take up with his colleague, the Minister for Education — who waxed eloquently here about half an hour ago — the question of education places and opportunities. Does anybody expect the gardaí on the beat to risk life and limb to detain those who are guilty of these crimes?

This problem has not arisen overnight. Consecutive Governments have failed to provide sufficient detention places — that is the basis of a wider debate on prison space. The question of juvenile crime has been raised time and again. Instead of engaging in selective constituency spending, the Minister for Education should meet her responsibilities and address this matter. The greatest concern for the electorate at present is crime.

The people of the greater Blanchardstown area experienced the tragedy of a recent horrific murder. The administration of jail sentencing which allows offenders to walk free is nonsensical. That urban community is experiencing many growing pains with its large number of young people and it could do without the nonsense of the present jail sentencing system.

The concluding paragraph of the article headed "HERO WITH KIDS" states:

"The most worrying aspect of the whole affair is that he is becoming a hero for some of the children. He is always encouraging them to do stuff like break windows and throw eggs at houses". A local garda said: "As soon as we catch him, we will bring him back before the courts. And the same thing will probably happen all over again.

The situation is deplorable.

I do not want to score political points, but on the wider issue of justice my colleague, Deputy O'Donoghue, has been more than practical and constructive and has refrained from criticising the various Ministers concerned on a political level. The Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, and the Minister for Education, Deputy Bhreathnach, have a real crisis on their hands. They do not appear to be in control of their briefs or addressing the basic issues. The position is deplorable.

How can gardaí be expected to continue to perform their duties of giving evidence in court about offenders found guilty of wrongdoing, such as breaking into people's homes and stealing cars, when offenders are allowed back into the local community?

In this case the Garda has highlighted that less than 24 hours later the offender was spotted in a stolen car in the Clonee area where he tried to ram a Garda car. Since then he was sighted in the Strawberry Beds area in a stolen car. I sincerely hope something positive and pragmatic will be done to address this nonsensical position.

Mr. Allen

I defend the actions and performance of my colleagues, the Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, and the Minister for Education, Deputy Bhreathnach. I find it ironic that there is now a new found urgency among the ranks of Fianna Fáil to tackle the crime problem. That party was in office for seven years and all the matters that need to be addressed now could have been addressed during that time. The victims about whom they are crying could have been protected if adequate measures had been put in place during those seven years. The pleadings of members of that party during the past few weeks on a very serious issue affecting victims were hypocritical.

I understand that the youth in question was referred by the courts to Trinity House school in Oberstown, Lusk, County Dublin. Trinity House is a reformatory school which provides 28 long stay places and a further two short-term remand places for children in the 14 to 16 age group. The boy in question is 15 years old. He appeared in court on the 12 January 1996 charged with robbery and damage to property. He was sentence to four years detention in Trinity House reformatory school.

I understand that a member of the garda contacted Trinity House from the court on the day of the hearing to inquire whether a long stay place would be available for the boy in question. The garda was informed that the school was full at the time and would not be in a position to accommodate the boy. I understand that, nonetheless, later that day a garda arrived at Trinity House with the boy. The garda was again informed that no bed was available and that the boy could not be admitted.

My Department has confirmed that Trinity House school was indeed full for long stay and remand purposes on the day in question. I understand that the possibility of accommodating the boy in the adjacent Oberstown boys reformatory school was not raised during the course of these inquiries. Oberstown boys reformatory school provides a total of 20 long stay beds and a further ten short-term remand places. I can confirm that Oberstown boys reformatory school, which is sited adjacent to Trinity House, had two remand places available on the day in question and could have accommodated the boy had it been so requested.

The difficulty surrounding this case was only brought to my Department's attention on 22 January 1996. Had my Department been alerted when the problem originally arose, arrangements could have been made to accommodate the boy in Oberstown boys reformatory school, pending the availability of a long stay place in Trinity House.

I can assure the Deputy and the House that I fully share the widespread and growing concern that the community be protected and that adequate accommodation be made available to meet the needs of the courts. This is particularly so where serious or persistent breaches of the law are involved.

In order to avoid a repetition of the particular circumstances surrounding the case raised by the Deputy, I can confirm that the directors of the reformatory schools have been instructed to check on accommodation availability in all relevant facilities before responding to requests for accommodation from the courts. The directors in question are already in discussion with the Garda authorities on the most efficient means of ensuring maximum flexibility and usage of available facilities.

On the general question of accommodation provision, I should point out that it is extremely difficult to forecast, with any degree of precision, the number of custodial places required to accommodate juvenile offenders. Demand for such accommodation can vary from day to day, depending on decisions taken by the courts. Experience with the operation of the present industrial school facilities would suggest that the 130 places currently available are adequate to meet present and likely demand for the under 14 population. However, in the case of the reformatory schools, which deal with the 14 to 16 year olds, there is undoubtedly growing pressure for increased accommodation. This is particularly pronounced in the case of young male offenders. There is also occasional pressure for accommodation in the case of young female offenders.

Measures to address these problems are already being pursued in line with the announcement made by my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Currie, last year. The measures in question include the development of an additional 28-30 reformatory school places for young male offenders in the 14 to 16 year age group, and the development of an additional eight places for young female offenders.

The House will appreciate that the nature of these facilities is such that very detailed planning is required in order to ensure that they operate in an efficient and effective manner. The process of planning these new facilities is currently under way in my Department and is being pursued as speedily as possible.

The House will also be aware that the Government recently approved the draft scheme of a new children Bill. A key objective of this Bill is to update and streamline the dated legislation which currently governs the whole area of juvenile crime and the role of the courts and our young offender centres in dealing with this area. The preparation of this legislation is being pursued as a matter of priority and it is hoped that the legislation will be published within the next few months.

I am confident that the measures I have outlined will achieve a significant improvement on current arrangements for the accommodation of young offenders and ensure, as far as possible, that problems of the type raised by the Deputy can be avoided in the future.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.20 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 January 1996.