Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Jun 1996

Vol. 467 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 4 — Merchant Shipping (Liability of Shipowners and Others) Bill, 1996 [Seanad], Second Stage and No. 18 — Control of Horses Bill, 1996, Second Stage (resumed).

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; (2) the proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 4, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.45 p.m. today; (3) the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage of No. 18, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. tonight; and (4) the proceedings in the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy on the Transport (Dublin Light Rail) (No. 2) Bill, 1996, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 11 p.m. by one question, which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications or a Minister or Minister of State, as the case may be, nominated as substitute on his behalf; and the Select Committee shall report back to the Dáil on the Transport (Dublin Light Rail) (No. 2) Bill, 1996, not later than Wednesday, 26 June 1996.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 36 — Local Government (Planning and Development) Bill, 1996 — Second Stage.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are four matters to put to the House. Is the proposal that the House should sit late agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with item No. 4 agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with item No. 18 agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with the Transport (Dublin Light Rail) (No. 2) Bill, 1996 in select committee agreed? Agreed.

Mr. D. Ahern

If the Minister will turn up.

Mr. B. Ahern

I wish to raise a question for the second last time on a report on which the Whips have been working for the past 18 months. I understand it will be completed in the next day or two and will be put before the House next week. Will the Taoiseach relent on the present position concerning the taking of written questions during the summer recess? Will he allow them to be taken at least on the days committees of the House meet or, if that is not agreeable, one day a week? We debated this matter for a number of years and had almost reached agreement that they could be taken in July and September when the committees meet.

The Taoiseach and the Government Whip put forward a proposal for dealing with matters of concern early last year to overcome difficulties with which the Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle must contend on the Order of Business. I understood agreement was almost reached on that. Then the Taoiseach changed his mind and now there is no provision for resolving matters of concern. Before agreement is reached on dealing with written questions and the House goes into recess I ask the Taoiseach to relent on his position in regard to these matters, which are minor but of great importance to the function of the House, and to show he is committed to Oireachtas reform, particularly Dáil reforms.

The Taoiseach

I understand the report being prepared by the Whips in conjunction with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges will be presented to the House on Thursday week and on that occasion the Deputy will be able to put forward any proposals or amendments he wishes. The reasons for the position being adopted by the Government on some of these issues will also be explained on that occasion.

Mr. B. Ahern

My difficulty is that my Whip asked me if he could put his name to that report. I am sure the Taoiseach who loves twisting lines and phrases——

Mrs. O'Rourke

Constantly.

Mr. B. Ahern

I am sure the Taoiseach will come into the House and say I agreed to the Whips' signature on that report and I cannot amend it. How can the Taoiseach amend a joint report agreed by all the Whips?

The Taoiseach

I am giving the Deputy full permission to table amendments if he wishes to do so.

Mr. B. Ahern

The Taoiseach will be in another part of Europe or somewhere else at that stage and will not be interested in what will be happening in the House.

Mr. Durkan

The Deputy is jealous.

Mr. B. Ahern

I am. I am very upset.

Mr. D. Ahern

Because the Taoiseach will make a mess of it — that is why we are jealous.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Let us not have any interruptions from either side of the House. Let us hear the Member in possession, Deputy Ahern.

Mr. B. Ahern

I am asking the Taoiseach to agree to a simple matter, one of the recommendations he made in January 1995.

Mr. H. Byrne

He has forgotten it.

Mr. B. Ahern

He has changed his mind about it. As he and I know he will not take this matter next week. Therefore I ask him to explain to a full session of the House why he is opposed to written parliamentary questions being taken one day a week during July and September. What is the difficulty in allowing the Opposition to table written questions one day a week during the summer recess?

Mrs. O'Rourke

We might ask the right questions.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Does the Taoiseach wish to intervene?

The Taoiseach

I will answer Deputy Ahern. He is right in what he said, that it may not be possible for me to intervene in that debate. It is not unreasonable for him to want to know my opinion on the matter and I will happily give it to him now, if that is in order.

Regarding the taking of parliamentary questions during the summer recess, we have an extensive system of parliamentary questions in this House. Questions are answered at four day's notice for the bulk of the year. In most other parliamentary jurisdictions, members must wait one, two, three or four weeks, in some cases, for answers to questions. We have one of the shortest periods from the posing to the answering of a question in any parliamntary system in the world. It applies for virtually the entire year with the exception of, effectively, the second half of July, August and the first half of September. The administrative burden involved in answering those questions is substantial. Very significant procedures must be gone through in checking and cross-checking the factual position in regard to the replies. Anything that goes on the record of the House must be accurate, as Deputies will rightly complain if something included in the most minor parliamentary reply is not fully accurate. We should not change the existing procedure because Deputies have all the existing facilities for parliamentary questions during Dáil sitting times and the administrative burden of providing those facilities during the Dáil recess would be unduly substantial and out of proportion to any benefits that would be derived from it.

Dr. Woods

That is nonsense.

Mr. Martin

The administration should support the Parliament. That is a fundamental tenet of any democracy.

The Taoiseach

I do not believe that the benefits that are being claimed by the Deputy for this procedure are substantial.

Dr. Woods

Why do we have committees?

The Taoiseach

I wish to make another point and I am glad Deputies opposite are assisting me in that. We now have the benefit of a committee system, one of the most extensive and effective in Europe, which was introduced with the support of all parties. It affords Members an additional channel for obtaining information.

Mr. Martin

The Taoiseach should answer the question.

Mr. Dempsey

Will Ministers come in during July and September to answer questions?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Let us hear the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

Therefore, I do not believe there is any need for the introduction of written questions during the recess. I disagree with the Deputy on this point.

Mrs. O'Rourke

The Taoiseach has changed his mind.

The Taoiseach

My recollection — I am subject to correction on this and hope I am not wrong — is that the Government put forward certain proposals on that in 1995, but they were unacceptable in the form in which they were put forward to Deputy Ahern's party.

Mr. D. Ahern

That is not correct.

Mr. Martin

The Taoiseach's recollection is not correct.

The Taoiseach

Because of that something else was sought by Deputy Ahern's party which we considered and decided we could not accept. The truth of the matter is that the House has very full means of calling the Government to account and even fuller than average means of calling the Taoiseach to account, which it does regularly. I believe we do not need any further innovations in this area. What we have at present is working well.

Mrs. O'Rourke

That is the Taoiseach's opinion.

The Taoiseach

All those who have been responsible for the introduction of the changes we now have can take some measure of credit for that. If a system is working well we should not change it simply for the sake of change.

Mr. Dempsey

We can all recognise a 360 degree change.

(Interruptions.)

Miss Harney

I agree with Deputy Ahern. It is hard to believe that the Taoiseach is the same person who told the Dáil in November 1994 how much he believed in the supremacy of the parliamentary question and that the Ceann Comhairle should be given new powers to ensure that parliamentary questions were extensively and comprehensively answered. The Taoiseach said the system is working satisfactorily but that is not the case. Last week I tabled a question about the activities of the Government press secretary. That question was transferred by the Taoiseach to the Department of Justice to be answered on 23 July but the House will not be sitting on that date. The system is unsatisfactory with the Taoiseach transferring questions that are awkward for him at any given time. There is no continuity from one week to the next regarding what the Taoiseach accepts. I ask him to consider seriously what is being put forward by the Opposition which is in the interests of reforming this House and is surely more relevant to the people we represent. It is something about which the Taoiseach felt strongly when in Opposition. He was the champion of Dáil reform when in Opposition, and I do not see why he should justify abandoning it in its entirety now.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot debate the matter to this extent on the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

I am interested in what Deputy Harney has to say. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges established a subcommittee to deal with these matters. It had eight meetings, and I am advised that the Progressive Democrats's representative on the committee did not turn up at any of them.

Dr. Woods

That is irrelevant.

Mr. R. Burke

It is just a smart-alec remark.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot continue to debate this matter on the Order of Business.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Opposition on many occasions made the point to the Government that there are far too many committees which makes it particularly difficult for the smaller parties in the Dáil to attend them all.

Mr. E. Byrne

We appreciate your concern.

Mr. D. Ahern

The last remark was gratuitous. A Dáil reform document was prepared by the Whips, and there has been agreement in that regard. Many of the proposals came from Fianna Fáil and the two things still at issue relate to written questions and matters of concern. When the Taoiseach was in Opposition in 1990 he asked for and proposed, if he got into Government, to bring in written questions during the Dáil recess. On matters of concern, we did not oppose the Government's proposal in early 1995. We queried the way in which Ministers were responding to matters of concern which were raised. The Government was proposing that the Ministers should respond by letter. We wanted them to come into the House to respond.

Mr. B. Ahern

Is the Taoiseach stating that the debate is over as far as the Government is concerned, and that, even though he put forward a good document in 1989 calling for questions during the summer recess, he is refusing even one day a week for questions? We have over 20 committees, and small parties in particular have major difficulties in attending them all. If we are to have committees, one of the best ways of informing oneself in preparation for dealing with a Bill is to table parliamentary questions. It is not the case that because there are committees meeting during the summer we do not need questions. The opposite is the case. The Taoiseach should remember he researched this document many times over the years. In fairness, would the Taoiseach not agree to a suggestion, which would be agreeable to everybody in this House, including Government Deputies, that on one day a week for three weeks in July and three weeks in September we have written questions? Will the Taoiseach answer?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is being clever. He invited me to express my opinion on the matter because it will not be possible for me to speak in the debate. When I did as he asked he said there was no point in having the debate because I had expressed my opinion on it. The Deputy seems to be in a "heads I win, tails I win" mood, but I appreciate it for what it is.

Mr. Cowen

When will we have the freedom of information Bill?

The Taoiseach

In the autumn this year.

Mr. Martin

I wish to seek the guidance of the Chair and the Taoiseach in relation to the matter I raised under Standing Order 30, the Price Waterhouse inquiry into last year's leaving certificate art examination. It is extraordinary that on page 1 there is a letter from the consultants to the Minister for Education dictating the conditions on which this document will be published. Given that the Minister gave five separate commitments in this House to publish this report, could we have the record of the House corrected and the necessary documentation between Price Waterhouse and the Department of Education placed in the Library for our persual?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This matter will be debated tomorrow night.

Mr. Martin

I accept that. I just want to ask——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Not on the Order of Business. Other Deputies are attempting to speak and I want to facilitate them. We have already expended a lot of time on this Order of Business. If I do not hear relevant questions I will have to proceed to the next item.

Mr. Martin

I just want the guidance of the Chair. Will the Taoiseach make available the documentation that passed between Price Waterhouse and the Minister by placing it in the Library?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is deemed to be out of order at this point. I cannot facilitate him in proceeding further.

Mr. Martin

It is farcical that people are queuing up in the corridors trying to get copies of it.

Ms O'Donnell

I wish to respond to the rather unworthy remark by the Taoiseach when he said that the representative of the Progressive Democrats Party did not attend any of the meetings of the Dáil reform subcommittees. That is not correct. I did attend some meetings and in the case of those which I did not attend, I sent full apologies. The reason I did not attend was that I was attending other legislative committees of which I am a member. That can be checked by the Clerk.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not elaborate at this time.

Ms O'Donnell

I should be allowed to answer. We have just completed Committee Stage of a Bill and not one Government Deputy — except the Minister — was present.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are rules governing the Order of Business.

Mr. O'Donoghue

Does the Government consider it desirable that the regulations governing people in custody should be amended in the light of recent tragic deaths in Irish prisons?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Does this relate to promised legislation?

Mr. O'Donoghue

It relates to the regulations governing people in custody.

The Taoiseach

Legislation has not been promised on that matter but if the Deputy wishes to make representations on the matter they will be carefully considered.

Dr. Woods

As hundreds of disabled people are under threat of losing their jobs because of the Government's failure to remove the cap on prize funds in lotteries, could the Taoiseach tell us when the Government's Gaming and Lotteries (Amendment) Bill will come before the House?

The Taoiseach

I understand that legislation will be ready for consideration here during the second half of the year.

Mr. B. Ahern

In autumn 1994 we were dealing with a financial measure concerning health board overruns and balances. Agreement was reached at the time that these balances would be partially covered by the proceeds of the tax amnesty. A commitment was given by this Government and by the last Government, based on that agreement, that legislation to control the accountability of health boards would be brought forward. How stands that legislation now?

The Taoiseach

There is one item of legislation concerning the health boards, the amendment of the 1970 Act to provide for a replacement of the Eastern Health Board and related matters. I understand the legislation is not likely to be ready before January or February 1997.

Miss Harney

In relation to the Taoiseach's unnecessary remarks earlier on Deputy O'Donnell, for a party of eight Deputies who have to attend 23 committee meetings we do not do too badly and not many Deputies are as conscientious as Deputy O'Donnell. The Taoiseach should withdraw what he said as she did attend some of those meetings but my party made very clear its views on Dáil reform. We do not necessarily believe in constantly attending meetings to talk about it, we want to see something done about it.

I have continually raised the question of bail. Since I tabled a parliamentary question on the matter last week we have had the Felloni case and the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy De Rossa, on the radio last Saturday told the nation that if we want to find out about bail we should raise the issue in the Dáil. In reply to my parliamentary question last week, the Minister for Justice said she has finalised her consideration of the matter. In that case, why is the Government delaying in bringing forward its recommendations on the necessary changes in the law of bail?

The Taoiseach

In regard to the attendance record of the committee in question, my information is that there was no representation at any meeting by the Progressive Democrats but I will check the record and revert to the Deputy. I understand also that the Progressive Democrats did not submit any substantive proposals; they submitted written observations. Occasionally in this House, the Deputy adopts an attitude of moral superiority which may well be justified in some respects, but it is important to make the point that while her party was in office questions were not tabled at that time during the recess.

Miss Harney

What about the law of bail?

The Taoiseach

That matter is currently before the Government and I hope we will be able to make some decisions on the matter soon.

Mr. Cowen

We were informed in the House that the Turf Development Bill would not be taken until March or April next year. Given the continuing saga, will the Taoiseach indicate if the Government is prepared to give priority to the legislation or in the event of it not being brought forward will he indicate when the Minister responsible will come into this House and explain what is going on in a semi-State company?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise now.

Mr. Cowen

I asked a question on promised legislation.

The Taoiseach

I will write to the Deputy.