Richard Bruton
Ceist:8 Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for Education and Science the plans, if any, he has to develop a national database on dropout rates from regional technical colleges; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16690/97]
Other Questions. - College Dropout Rates.
The decision of some students to drop out of their courses certainly concerns me. The Deputy will appreciate that the reasons for dropout are complex. There is no simple explanation. Factors such as motivation, capabilities and suitability are all involved. There must also be a balance between completion rates on programmes and maintaining the necessary objective standards. The challenge of maximising completion rates, consistent with maintaining appropriate standards, is a matter in the first instance for individual colleges and the National Council for Educational Awards. As the Deputy is aware, a range of new structures have been developed in the colleges on foot of the enactment of the Regional Technical Colleges Act, 1992, designed to support their effectiveness and efficiency as third level educational institutions.
A number of initiatives have been taken by the colleges and the NCEA in relation to the monitoring of departures before students have completed their courses. A system has been developed for a statistical monitoring of uncertified departures from certificate and diploma programmes and has been applied on a pilot basis in some colleges. Other studies, in both individual colleges and groups of colleges, have also been carried out with a view to developing actions to minimise uncertified departures. A comprehensive study on the guidance services in regional technical colleges was carried out with assistance from the National Centre for Guidance in Education. A further study began in October 1996 aimed at providing a comprehensive examination of the reasons underlying uncertified departures. The study covers the 1996-7 session and encompasses background research, case studies, surveys and questionnaires. In December 1996, the NCEA initiated a study into admission requirements, academic standards for transfer from national certificate to national diploma to degree and into attrition rates within courses in NCEA designated institutions. An interim report from the study was presented to the council's academic committee last April. I understand, however, that presentation of the final report has been deferred to take account of other ongoing studies on attrition rates with a view to providing a more comprehensive analysis of the problem.
In July I established a joint industry-education task force to identify a range of proposals and measures to enhance the throughput of students in particular engineering disciplines to address the strong demand for technicians in the new technological industries. As part of the immediate follow up to the task force, I have already announced a major initiative whereby industry and colleges will jointly recruit, educate and train technicians. A new course, the national certificate in technology, for which up to 300 students are being recruited, will commence in January 1998 in nine regional technical colleges. The courses will involve structured work placement with a number of firms who are co-operating in this programme. As applicants will have a clear understanding of their future role in industry, I am confident that the majority of the participating students will complete their courses successfully.
The findings of the task force will be of direct assistance in developing strategies to improve retention rates generally. I will shortly announce my response to the further recommendations of this group. I will also meet the colleges collectively and this issue will be an important item on the agenda. I am very happy to consider further, in consultation with the colleges and the NCEA, putting in place an appropriate database if this can make a significant contribution to reducing drop out rates.
Does the Minister recall that, in January this year when he was in Opposition, he stated it was scandalous that we did not have a national database? He said we had no idea how many students proceed from first to second year, how many complete their courses and that transfer rates from first to second year in some courses are as low as 39 per cent, 37 per cent, 35 per cent and 32 per cent. Against that background, is it not a disgrace that the National Council for Educational Awards, which was to produce this study before the start of the academic year has deferred its production? I believe that is a serious error. Even if that information is not full, we need to get access to it. We are investing heavily in these courses. Does the Minister agree that the number of people who drop out is a key issue? Will he revert to his eloquent words in January and give a commitment to remedy this matter without any "ifs", "ands" or, "buts"?
I welcome the fact the Deputy is drawing inspiration from my contributions in Opposition in terms of educational policy.
I hope the Minister lives up to them.
I am committed to establishing a national database.
Without any "ifs", "ands", "buts", or views from others.
We already moved in July in terms of the joint industrial task force.
That is not the same thing.
The key issue is that something is done about it.
The issue is that we need to know the extent of the problem and then deal with it.
One of the motivating factors behind the joint industrial task force was to examine why students were dropping out of certain courses. The points commission that has been established could have a significant bearing on this also. This initiative will have significant implications for the attrition issue and the points system in terms of how people identify courses they wish to attend as certain students end up on courses for which they were not suitable originally. It is a key issue because with the skills issue, population decline, etc., it is essential that resources are maximised in terms of those who go through the system so that we do not have high attrition rates, particularly in colleges.
I want a straight answer.
Yes, I am committed to a national database.
Will the Minister commit, without any "ifs" or "buts" or "subject to consultations", to producing a database so that we will know from year to year how many students are dropping out and how many are not competing?
I am committed to the establishment of a national database but I have no intention of publishing material that would be unnecessarily damaging to colleges if it were taken up in the wrong context. It is critically important that we know what is happening in each college in terms of individual courses and how many students are completing them. Steps have been taken to ensure that is the case.
We must know about it. It cannot be just in the Minister's head.
With respect, I am only six months in office.
The public has a right to know.
There will be a national database but it is more important than the mere compilation of statistics to take concrete steps which will ensure higher and stronger completion rates in all sectors of education.
When does the Minister expect to publish the statistics on attrition?
That is a separate question. We are committed to the establishment of a database and I will get back to the Deputy on its progress.
Does the Minister agree that the fact that the information was not available for reply to a recent parliamentary question which I tabled in regard to fall out rates from college of students undertaking national certificate courses is a sad reflection on his Department? In terms of the interim report which the Department received last April, does it indicate whether admission standards to national certificate courses in many instances are probably too low and students who qualify for admission with Ds in five pass subjects do not have the wherewithal to see their courses through?
I do not accept that and that is why the points commission must look at this area. The issue comes down to suitability for courses and the key to completion is that people are suited to the discipline they take on. Sometimes people are attending courses they did not originally apply for as their first choice and some find themselves taking up courses that were their fourth or fifth choice. After three or four months they realise the course is not for them or the disciplines and subjects which form part of it are not suitable to their orientation or intelligence.
I have seen students in the PLC sector, who did not perform to the peak of their abilities at leaving certificate level and secured an average result, who have gone on to significant achievement afterwards. We should be wary of forever judging people's educational standards on their leaving certificate performance. I met a student recently who had just completed a master's degree in topography and had won an award in Brussels. He started out on a PLC foundation course in Colaiste Stiofáin Naofa, Cork. Progression is important and suitability to the course is the primary issue.
This needs to be analysed very carefully as it is not as simplistic as gathering figures and publishing them. We are working on it and the joint industrial task group is one such initiative. An interesting aspect is the type of people who are applying to return to education and who would have been excluded by the CAO system. Many of them like the nature of the course starting in January because it involves significant, structured placement and they see guaranteed employment at the end of it. I am open to any suggestions from others on the issue.
Written answers follow Adjournment Debate.