Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 3 Mar 1998

Vol. 488 No. 1

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take items Nos. 10 to 41, inclusive, Finance Bill, 1998 — Financial Resolutions; No. 41a on the Supplementary Order Paper, Finance Bill, 1998 — Financial Resolution; No. 42, Motion re Leave to introduce Supplementary Estimates [Vote 38] and, subject to the agreement of No. 42, to take Supplementary Estimate [Vote 38]; No. 52, Central Bank Bill, 1997 — Order for Report Stage and Report and Final Stages and No. 3 — Eighteenth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 1998 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that: Nos. 10 — 41 and No. 41a, on the Supplementary Order Paper, shall be moved together and decided without debate by one Question which shall be put from the Chair; No. 42 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; subject to agreement on No. 42, Supplementary Estimate [Vote 28] shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; and the Report and Final Stages of No. 52 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.45 p.m. today by one Question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance. Private Members' Business shall be item No. 77 — Motion re Homelessness.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are four proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 10 to 41, inclusive, and 41a agreed?

Proinsias De Rossa

The proposal is that Nos. 10 to 41, inclusive, be agreed without debate. Will the House have an opportunity at any point to debate these issues because Committee Stage of the Finance Bill will not provide sufficient time? One of the items relates to the taxation of off-shore accounts. When will the House have an opportunity to debate this matter?

The Taoiseach

Committee Stage of the Finance Bill will be taken tomorrow and on Thursday. This is the usual practice under Standing Order 141(2) which states that Committee Stage of a Bill which involves a charge upon the people, including an incidental charge, shall not be taken unless a motion approving the charge has been passed by Dáil Éireann.

Proinsias De Rossa

When will the House have an opportunity to debate all the items?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

On Committee Stage of the Bill.

Proinsias De Rossa

Committee Stage allows a restricted debate. It will not be possible to have the detailed discussion that is necessary. One of the items makes provision for the taxation of off-shore accounts. This issue is exercising many people's minds at present.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I understand that all the proposals before the House are contained in the Finance Bill.

Proinsias De Rossa

I appreciate that, but time has not been provided for an adequate debate on the issue of offshore accounts which is of major public concern.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There will be an opportunity to debate them on Committee Stage.

Proinsias De Rossa

I disagree.

Mr. Quinn

Will the House go into the usual special committee? Can any Member attend and participate in the debate?

Dr. Woods

Yes.

Mr. Quinn

Are the items additional amendments which were not published in the usual manner?

Mr. O'Donoghue

No.

Mr. Quinn

Why are they being taken today?

The Taoiseach

The items are taken every year to allow the committee to operate. If the items are not passed, the committee cannot operate.

Mr. J. Bruton

They provide financial authority to the committee to deal with the measures.

The Taoiseach

That is correct. I outlined Standing Order 141(2) earlier. Once the financial resolutions are passed, the Committee Stage debate can proceed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the proposal agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 42 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Supplementary Estimate, Vote 38, agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 52 agreed? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is the Government serious about introducing legislation to amend the Tribunals of Inquiry Act with a view to changing the terms of reference of a tribunal that is already established? Does the Government realise it is not possible to introduce legislation that has penal effects retrospectively and, therefore, the legislation cannot do what the Government is pretending it can do?

The Taoiseach

Tribunals do not impose penal sanctions.

Mr. J. Bruton

They do. This is monumental incompetence.

Mr. Yates

Does the Government need a new Attorney General already?

Mr. D. Ahern

The Deputy borrowed that from Deputy Owen's time.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is the Taoiseach serious about introducing legislation to amend the terms of reference of a tribunal that is already sitting? That cannot be done. It is a most foolish idea. The Government does not know what it is doing.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

It is a legislative fig leaf.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Quinn.

Mr. Quinn

Although a statement is not yet available from the Government Information Service, will the Taoiseach confirm the Government announcement that it intends to amend the 1921 legislation referring to tribunals? If so, when will the Bill be published and when is it proposed to take it in the House?

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has been asked to prepare a Bill forthwith. It will be a relatively short Bill to amend the 1921 and 1979 Acts. As soon as the legislation is prepared, it will be brought before the House. It may be discussed at next week's Cabinet meeting. The work of the tribunal will continue in the meantime but it is the Government's intention to have the Bill passed as quickly as possible. This will allow the Government to approve the amendment sought by the tribunal.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Will Sinn Féin fund the case?

Mr. Quinn

Is the Government satisfied with its legal advice that the effect of the Bill can be retrospective and that any deliberations, conclusions or recommendations, including penalties, which may emerge from the Flood tribunal cannot be subject to constitutional challenge in the future?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Quinn

It is relevant. The Taoiseach may wish to reply.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy's question about the legislation was relevant.

Mr. Quinn

Will it be retrospective legislation?

Will it apply to the Flood tribunal that is already in operation?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is the Taoiseach aware that the Government already has power under the 1921 legislation to amend the terms of reference of an existing tribunal?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is the Taoiseach engaging in a criminal waste of parliamentary time by introducing legislation that will create an avoidable problem for the Flood tribunal? Is the Taoiseach aware that the Flood tribunal would not have requested an alteration to its terms of reference if the learned judge did not believe it was possible? The provision for changing the terms of reference of tribunals would not have been inserted in the terms of this and previous tribunals if it was not possible under existing legislation. The Government is extremely foolish.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is not in order in making a statement on the legislation.

Mr. J. Bruton

The House will not be in order in proceeding with this ill-conceived legislation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is entitled to ask when the legislation will be introduced, not about its details.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach pause and reconsider this mistaken course of action which the Government has apparently taken?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That point is not appropriate either.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Deputy is full of superlatives today.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, not to misquote on radio the previous Attorney General, Mr. Dermot Gleeson, with regard to advice he gave to the then Government? He should give accurate accounts of advice given to successive Governments, not seriously inaccurate accounts.

The Taoiseach

In his interim report last Thursday, Mr. Justice Flood asked for a change in the terms of reference so that issues before 1985, some of which may be relevant to issues after 1985, could be investigated. He wants the opportunity to deal with those matters. I read the full details of advice received by this, the previous Government and successive Administrations under successive Attorneys General on this and other matters. It is the same; it cannot be done.

Mr. J. Bruton

That is not so. Why was it put into the terms of reference?

The Taoiseach

The only way to facilitate the tribunal, as the Government wishes to do, is to amend section 1 of the Tribunals of Inquiry Act, 1921.

Mr. J. Bruton

That is completely wrong.

The Taoiseach

After it is amended, it will be possible to amend the terms of reference. This is what the Government intends to do.

Mr. J. Bruton

That is totally wrong.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy De Rossa.

Mr. Dempsey

The Opposition did not know what advice it was receiving when in Government.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The Government is in blunderland.

Mr. J. Bruton

It does not know what it is doing.

Dr. McDaid

Is the Deputy saying the Attorney General is wrong?

Mr. J. Bruton

It is very serious incompetence.

Dr. McDaid

Is the Deputy accusing the Attorney General of being incompetent?

Mr. J. Bruton

I am accusing the Taoiseach.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy De Rossa.

Mr. Dempsey

The Opposition wanted the date included.

Proinsias De Rossa

Is it the Government's intention to introduce a motion to amend the terms of reference of the Flood inquiry following the amendment of the legislation? Is it also the Government's intention to amend the terms of reference of the Moriarty tribunal to include the Ansbacher accounts? Is the Taoiseach certain if he amends the basic legislation that it will be possible to amend the Moriarty tribunal's terms of reference?

The Taoiseach

The answer to the Deputy's first question is yes. The Bill will be amended as per the legal advice to this and previous Governments. We will follow that advice and make provision to amend the terms of reference of the Flood tribunal. I thought all Members would want us to do so to enable that tribunal do its work. Deputy Bruton had the same advice when he was Taoiseach.

Mr. J. Bruton

No.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Bruton had the same advice from Mr. Dermot Gleeson when he was Attorney General.

Mr. J. Bruton

No, I did not.

The Taoiseach

Yes he had. If it was the practice to put these matters in the public domain I could do so.

Mr. J. Bruton

I have spoken to the Attorney General quoted by Deputy Dempsey, and he has given no such advice.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton should allow the Taoiseach to conclude.

Mr. J. Bruton

He advised us that we could not alter the terms of reference of the McCracken tribunal, not that we could not alter terms of reference in general.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is on its feet.

Mr. Shatter

On a point of order, the Taoiseach has made a threat or charge about the Leader of the Opposition.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Shatter

It does democracy no good if the Chair speaks over the Leader of the Opposition.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Shatter should have some respect for the dignity of the House.

Proinsias De Rossa

On a point of order, I asked a question which had two parts. One related to the Flood inquiry.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Proinsias De Rossa

The other related to the Moriarty tribunal.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must resume his seat.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Chair is stopping the Taoiseach from replying.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Ó thaobh cúrsaí reachtaíochta de, an ndearfaidh an Taoiseach leis an Dáil an bhfuil aon phlean ag an Rialtas leasú a dhéanamh ar Acht an Bhlascaoid Mhóir (Páirc Stairiúil Náisiúnta), 1989, ós rud é gur riailigh an Ard Chúirt go bhfuil an Acht neamhbhunreachtúil? An bhfuil sé ar intinn ag an Rialtas achomharc a dhéanamh ar rialú na hArd Cúirte go dtí an Chúirt Uachtarach roimh aon leasú a thabhairt chun cinn? An ndéanfaidh an Taoiseach geallúint go ndéanfaidh an Rialtas suíomh an Bhlascaoid Mhóir a chaomhnú ó aon bhagairt speisiléireachta?

Does the Government have any proposals to amend the Great Blasket legislation in view of the High Court decision that it is unconstitutional? Will the State appeal the decision to the Supreme Court before bringing forward amendments to that Act? Will the Taoiseach assure the House that the Government will, if necessary, act urgently in bringing forward legislation to protect the Blaskets from the encroachment of speculators who could threaten a national treasure unique in its scenic beauty as well as its social and literary history?

The Taoiseach

There has been a lengthy judgment in this case and there is the question of an appeal to the Supreme Court. Any action necessary will be taken.

Proinsias De Rossa

I asked earlier——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has ruled the Deputy's question out of order.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Taoiseach only answered half the question.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The matter has been dealt with. The Deputy must resume his seat when the Chair is on its feet.

Proinsias De Rossa

Is it proposed to amend the terms of reference of the Moriarty tribunal?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question has been dealt with.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Taoiseach has indicated he wishes to answer the question.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must resume his seat.

Mr. J. Bruton

I regard the legislation proposed by the Government as unnecessary. Will it deal with amendments to terms of reference generally or will it be confined to the Flood tribunal? Will it allow an amendment to the terms of the Moriarty tribunal——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is repetition.

Mr. Shatter

The Chair should let matters proceed.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the legislation be general or particular in regard to the amendment of terms of reference? Will it allow other tribunals to alter their terms of reference also?

The Taoiseach

For the third time, the 1921 tribunal legislation is general. Any change to that legislation would be applicable generally. I have no other requests.

Proinsias De Rossa

There is a request from the Opposition.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy De Rossa must resume his seat. We must have order in the House.

Mr. Quinn

If the Taoiseach received a request from the Opposition to amend the terms of reference of the Moriarty tribunal——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business. We cannot have a debate on the issue now. There will be legislation on this issue before the House and then there will be an opportunity for a debate.

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach said he had no requests to change the terms of reference.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not appropriate to speculate on from where requests may come.

Mr. Quinn

It is.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There will be legislation before the House which will allow Deputies to debate the matter at length.

Mr. Quinn

There will be a proposal to change the terms of reference of the Moriarty tribunal with the amended 1921 Act, which is unnecessary.

Mr. J. Bruton

Has the Taoiseach considered if it is unconstitutional to amend terms of reference retrospectively?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on this. There will be legislation on this matter before the House.

The Taoiseach

The Government receives advice from the Attorney General and acts upon it. It does not receive legal advice from everybody. That has been the practice since the foundation of the State. In this case, it is the same advice that has been received throughout the 1990s on this issue. It is clear from the advice and records that one cannot amend a tribunal for which an order has already been passed and which has been set up.

Mr. J. Bruton

No.

The Taoiseach

That is the advice Governments have received from several Attorneys General.

Mr. J. Bruton

Then they do not know their law.

The Taoiseach

Maybe they are all wrong and Deputy Bruton is the only one that is right. Perhaps he knows everything.

Mr. Yates

The Taoiseach is saying Mr. Justice Flood is wrong.

The Taoiseach

If Members want answers they should not interrupt.

Mr. J. Bruton

Does the Taoiseach understand legal advice?

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

I know the Deputy is a legal authority. The House has received a request, through the Ceann Comhairle, from Mr. Justice Flood for an amendment. This is how we will achieve that amendment, and we will do so quickly. In the meantime, the work will continue. I have had no requests from judges dealing with any other tribunals.

The Ansbacher accounts are being investigated in great detail by the Moriarty tribunal. They are being examined by the Revenue Commissioners, the Central Bank and an inspectorate from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

If the Moriarty tribunal finds that a wrongdoing has been done by an official, it will be dealt with. It will be dealt with by the inspectorate in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and reported to the DPP and to the Revenue Commissioners. As already stated, these accounts are being investigated to death. The only thing that has not been done is putting the names in the public domain. If no wrongdoing is found, we will not need to do that.

Mr. Gormley

The Taoiseach said he is trying to clarify matters. All we want to know is if he will include the Ansbacher accounts——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not having a further debate on this matter. We have debated it for 20 minutes and the Deputy's question is repetitive.

Mr. Gormley

The Taoiseach could answer that question.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

There will be an official judgment on 11 March.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy seems upset, he hoped I would not do it.

Mr. Yates

It looks bad.

Mr. Naughten

When does the Government propose to publish the private third level colleges bonding Bill? Will the Taoiseach agree to a debate in the House on third level funding in light of the scandalous U-turn on funding of third level grants for students in private colleges taken by the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Martin, yesterday evening? This is a continuation of the anti-student policy of this Government. The Government is reneging on promises to young people by making this U-turn.

Mr. Treacy

The Deputy's Minister left them on the streets.

Mr. Belton

The Government has made a permanent U-turn.

The Taoiseach

This will be included in the education and training qualifications Bill which will be published in the autumn.

Mr. Dukes

It will be too late for next year.

Mr. Yates

There is no money.

Mr. Quinn

As the country is less than nine weeks away from joining the single currency on the first weekend in May, does the Government intend to provide time for a debate in the House on the factors associated with the single currency? We have not had a debate on this matter for some time and there have been a number of developments in the meantime.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A debate was promised before Easter.

The Taoiseach

Yes, and the Government would welcome such a debate shortly, if it can be agreed between the Whips.

Proinsias De Rossa

Last week the Taoiseach indicated that the mental health Bill, which he hopes will deal with the issue of mentally handicapped persons being referred to psychiartric hospitals, would be introduced later in the year. Will he undertake to introduce it before the summer? Did the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Deputy de Valera, convey a message to the Cabinet this morning to the effect that she undertook last night in Limerick to ask the Government for £25 million for services for the mentally handicapped?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not appropriate on the Order of Business.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Minister gave a commitment to that effect last night.

Mr. Kenny

Will the Minister agree to provide the extra money?

The Taoiseach

There are 100 heads to that Bill, but I hope it will be prepared with as much speed as possible. The Minister, Deputy de Valera, did convey the promise she made last night.

Proinsias De Rossa

Did the Cabinet agree to provide the money? No.

Ms Fitzgerald

Does the Taoiseach intend to introduce legislation this term to put the Defence Forces' compensation claims for deafness in a statutory framework? The major restructuring of the Defence Forces, which was due to come into effect on 1 February, has been stalled.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Ms Fitzgerald

It does because the——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Order of Business. Is there legislation promised in this area?

Ms F. Fitzgerald

Yes. The Defence Forces Bill is due to be published this term. The change was due to begin on 1 February, but it has been stalled. When will the new legislation come before the House?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy can ask about the legislation, but not about its content.

Mr. Yates

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is very heavy handed today. He must be in bad form.

Mr. J. Bruton

He is not.

The Taoiseach

In regard to the restructuring of the Defence Forces, the Defence (Amendment) Bill, which is relatively short, will be circulated later in the year.

Ms Fitzgerald

Will the compensation issue be dealt with in legislation?

The Taoiseach

The Minister has outlined how he proposes to tackle that matter, and it is not on a statutory basis.

Ms Fitzgerald

It will not be dealt with under legislation.

Mr. Quinn

In regard to promised legislation, will the Taoiseach indicate the current state of the national claims agency Bill? When is it likely to come before the House?

The Taoiseach

That Bill is at an early stage of preparation. It will be some time before it is ready.

Mr. Quinn

Can I take it the heads of the Bill have not been cleared by Cabinet?

The Taoiseach

That is correct.