Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Jun 1998

Vol. 492 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. a8, motion re Report of Independent Inquiry into matters relating to child sexual abuse in swimming; No. 2, Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Bill, l998[Seanad], Second Stage (resumed); No. 21, Geneva Conventions (Amendment) Bill, l997, Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 5, Economic and Monetary Union Bill, l998, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; (2) No. a8 shall be decided without debate; (3) the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage of No. 2, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 5.30 p.m. today; (4) the Report and Final Stages of No. 21 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.30 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Foreign Affairs; (5) Second Stage of No. 5 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. tonight.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 52, motion re Student Nurses (resumed).

An Ceann Comhairle

There are five proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. a8 agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

When will this report be available to Members? Have they received it yet?

The Taoiseach

It is being laid before the House at the time at which the committee meets this afternoon.

Mr. J. Bruton

I presume this is a report of some substance and one would expect people to have read it before they discuss it. Assuming that people who are on the committee have other things to do between now and the time the committee debates it and may not be able to drop everything to read the report, is the timeframe sufficient?

The Taoiseach

Today's meeting will be a preliminary one and the report will be presented. It has to be done that way for defamation reasons. It is likely that the committee will have to meet again at a later date to discuss it.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is it not the case that a defamatory statement is an untrue statement and that stating something which is true could not be described as defamation?

The Taoiseach

The Government was anxious to publish the whole report but was legally advised that this was the only way it could be done.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is it not the case that a statement is defamatory only if it is untrue?

Mr. Quinn

I understand the concerns being expressed by the Fine Gael Party. Will the Taoiseach confirm that in order for this report to be published and enjoy the privilege of the House it has to form part of a report of one of the operating committees of the House of which Deputy Ferris is Chair? Will he also confirm that what is being done is a device to refer this to the committee so that it can take the matter on board as part of its overall report to enable it to come into the public domain so that its contents can be properly and fully debated, over a succession of meetings if necessary?

The Taoiseach

That is precisely the situation. It is best that such issues are brought before the Houses of the Oireachtas, and this is the safest and best way of doing it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. a8 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 2 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 21 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5 agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Quinn

Yesterday the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Woods, indicated that the Taoiseach would be in contact with us on the question of legislation to give effect to paragraph 4 of the section on prisoners in the British-Irish Agreement. Could the Taoiseach inform the House what the position is?

I would like to take this opportunity to correct an inaccurate statement which I made on radio this morning. I was in fact briefed by telephone late last night by one of the senior officials in the Taoiseach's Department, but I incorrectly stated that I had not been briefed.

The Taoiseach

Last week I told the leaders of the Opposition parties that they would be briefed late last week. Yesterday evening I realised that they had not been briefed. I regret that. They should have received the briefing late last week. They will have received it by now or will get it during the day.

What the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Woods, said yesterday was on advice received by the Government on the Offences Against the State Act, l939, and the Criminal Justice Act, l960, in particular, which covers temporary releases and capital and repatriation cases. The matter has not yet been brought to Government and I have not made a final decision. I am conscious of the wording of paragraph 4 and of how it could be interpreted. The leaders of the Opposition will be briefed and we will see then what is the best way to proceed. I do not want to create difficulties regarding the paragraph. I want the Agreement dealt with in the full course of time in a proper way, and that includes paragraph 40. Even though the law covers this matter — I have checked it a number of times, as others probably have — there is more to it than that.

Mr. Quinn

I appreciate what the Taoiseach has said. On the basis of what I have been informed, and our own analysis, notwithstanding that the law in its current format probably does provide for the release of prisoners, there is a net political point here and this Oireachtas is honour bound to introduce specific legislation to give full effect to paragraph 4 of the section on prisoners. However, we will await the full briefing and the correspondence from the Taoiseach and we will then move more formally on this matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach agree that the 1960 legislation was passed to deal with entirely different circumstances? Presumably the briefing now available would also have been available to the Government when it negotiated the British-Irish Agreement and the commitment it gave to legislation. Will the Taoiseach agree that in any event, whether by legislation, motion or some other method, the precise grounds for distinguishing between those prisoners who will be released early and those who will not, who have committed the same offences but with different organisational links, should be explicitly approved in this House so that it will be seen that matters of this nature involving human liberty are decided on the basis of clearly transparent rules, approved democratically, and not on the basis of administrative discretion by a Minister in a way that is not accountable?

Proinsias De Rossa

It seems that on the basis of the Agreement there is a need for legislation if only to confirm that we are complying with what we agreed to. While the 1939 Offences Against the State Act and the 1960 Criminal Justice Act provide some powers to Government, they may not be sufficient or adequate for the commitment we made in the Agreement. We need to examine the precise powers more closely because my recollection is that there were some difficulties under the last Administration in relation to the release of prisoners subsequent to the IRA and loyalist ceasefires. The matter is not as clear-cut as may be presented by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The Taoiseach

I am happy to consult with the Opposition leaders in this matter, and that process is under way. Paragraph 4 refers to "Governments" and, at the time, the discussion in Belfast was primarily about the way the British Government would deal with this issue. The question of what would happen did not arise. It was stated at the time that we had legislation in place to cover this but, to be frank, anyone reading paragraph 4 would be of the view that both Governments would introduce legislation. The advice on this matter is strong. I do not want to debate the legislation but the powers exist in legislation to do what we have agreed to do. However, there is a political point, as Deputy Quinn stated, and I am conscious of following a consistent line in regard to paragraph 4 and every other section of the Agreement. If we go down that road I would ask for the co-operation of the House to allow us deal with the matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is there some problem with introducing legislation?

The Taoiseach

No, but we normally do not introduce legislation in this House when legislation is already on the Statute Book. We do not introduce legislation for fun but for a reason. In this case I have outlined the reason we would do it.

Mr. J. Bruton

Neither does a Government agree an international accord for fun. It cannot agree to introduce legislation and then go back on that.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have any further discussion on the matter.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Bruton seems to have a fundamental objection in regard to all of this.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach's comments are unworthy. He knows I have supported him fully in the Agreement——

The Taoiseach

The Deputy knows what I am trying to do.

Mr. J. Bruton

——and given him full credit for it.

An Ceann Comhairle

We must move on.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach made a remark vis-à-vis myself and I should have the right to reply. It is important that matters concerning the liberty of individuals — keeping some people in jail and letting others out — should be approved in this House and should not be a matter for private administrative discretion. The Taoiseach knew that when he agreed in Belfast legislation would be introduced. That it is not necessary does not mean it cannot be done. There are many instances of consolidating legislation that repeats existing provisions, so there is no problem with fulfilling this commitment even if, in some respects, it repeats the 1960 legislation. I would like to know why the Taoiseach is so angry about this.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

One aspect of this with which I have difficulty is that when I say I will provide briefings and engage in consultation, people use that to twist around what I have said.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am not using anything.

The Taoiseach

I have made it absolutely clear——

Mr. J. Bruton

It was the Taoiseach's suggestion that he should give the briefing. I did not ask for it.

An Ceann Comhairle

We must have order.

The Taoiseach

It was my suggestion. This is not being put on a private administrative basis. It is legally underpinned by two legislative measures. I am trying to adhere to the letter of the law and ensure that an agreement to which I signed my name is properly upheld. That is all I am trying to do. I am not trying to find a way out of it. There are two existing legislative measures. The Attorney General and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform do not believe legislation is required but I am anxious that we act properly in regard to what is contained in paragraph 4. I am not getting annoyed about this matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach could have fooled me.

Mr. Currie

It is the perception in Northern Ireland that is important.

Mr. J. Bruton

I did not get the letter I was promised either.

Mr. Shatter

There is a promise in the programme for Government to publish legislation to provide a social services inspectorate and to introduce legislation in relation to mandatory reporting. Both of these matters have been put on the long finger by the Government. In the light of what we now know of the recommendations contained in Dr. Murphy's report, which will be available to this House this evening but which have been published in some of our newspapers this morning, does the Government intend to give priority of any nature to either of these two legislative measures? In the context of the social services inspectorate, will the Taoiseach explain why, having given a commitment to this House at the beginning of the year that the inspectorate would be formed on an administrative basis in advance of the legislation being published, nobody has yet been recruited and we currently do not have any such inspectorate? Will he explain also whether the matter is being held up by the Government, the Department of Finance or whether the Minister for Health and Children has gone to sleep on the issue?

The Taoiseach

On the question of child protection legislation, the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, is giving priority to that matter. On the inspectorate, the child care services inquiries Bill was removed from the legislative programme in view of the urgency of establishing a social services inspectorate. It has been decided to proceed with that on an administrative basis. It is envisaged that the inspectorate will be located in the Department of Health and Children. The general powers of the Minister for Health and Children, and specific powers provided in section 69 of the Child Care Act, will underpin its administrative guarantees and arrangements. In the longer term, it is accepted that the inspectorate will need to be established on a statutory basis and the drafting of the legislation will be informed by the practical experience of the inspectorate.

Mr. Shatter

Will the Taoiseach explain why a commitment was first given to this House last November, and repeated upon the reconvening of the House after the Christmas vacation, that the social services inspectorate would be established as a matter of priority on an administrative basis? Will the Taoiseach tell the House the progress of any nature that has been made in the six months since the start of this year in establishing——

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter would be more appropriate to a parliamentary question.

Mr. Shatter

It arises from the Taoiseach's reply.

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter may be dealt with by way of parliamentary question or question on the Adjournment.

Mr. Shatter

The Taoiseach said that the Minister for Health and Children is treating the legislation as a priority. Will he clarify why the Government is not treating it as a priority?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled on that matter. The Deputy may pursue it in another way.

Mr. Shatter

Why has the Bill been removed from the list of priority legislation? How many children will suffer because of political inertia and failure of the Government to meet its promises?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. Shatter

There has not been a single step forward in this area since the Government came to office. The Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation wondered why the issue had not been addressed. He is a member of Government and he does not know why the Government did not publish promised legislation. It is a disgrace.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is completely out of order. If he does not resume his seat I will have to ask him to leave the House.

Mr. Rabbitte

I congratulate the Taoiseach on his apparently successful intervention in digging the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform out of a hole on the Garda pay issue.

Mr. Belton

——and the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Rabbitte

Has the Taoiseach the agreement of the Minister for Finance to the 13.5 per cent headline? Is he satisfied that can be ring-fenced to the Garda?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo) The list of promised legislation for this term, published on 20 April 1998, under the heading Justice, Equality and Law Reform, includes the Family Law (International Protection of Children) Bill which will give effect to the Hague Convention on the Protection of Children, 1996. At what stage is that Bill?

The Taoiseach

It is hoped that Bill will be published before the end of this session.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): In view of the sorry saga that will be unveiled soon after we leave this House, that is not good enough. A promise to publish the Bill in this session does not mean it will become an Act of Parliament. Why has the commitment in this regard not been fulfilled? That should be a priority, as should the issue raised by Deputy Shatter. The Bill should be on the Statute Book to give effect to our international obligations in terms of the protection of children. Clearly the protection of children is not a priority for the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a statement on the matter.