Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 Oct 1998

Vol. 494 No. 3

Priority Questions. - Priority Questions (Resumed).

Ms Fitzgerald

I thank the Minister for his reply but he has adopted a confrontational approach to the barrack closures. He had no consultation with the people directly affected and he ignored the two legitimately established representative associations. He also ignored communities that have welcomed the Army into their midst over many years. These days participation and consultation are expected and the Minister promised as much while in Opposition. He should go back and read his own words, which he has failed to live up to.

I am not arguing about the need for some closures, but the way the Minister did it. There are all sorts of rumours at the moment about the future use of these lands and barracks. A suggestion was floated that they would be used for illegal immigrants. Was the Minister's Department approached about that appalling suggestion? Does the Minister intend to adopt the same approach? The Minister appears to be the second member of the Government today who is making a virtue out of not consulting with senior people. He did it also in the Price Waterhouse report. Does the Minister intend to consult local communities and people who have an interest in the future of these lands? These are valuable State assets. Will he have some consultation in relation to their future use?

In his reply, the Minister seems to suggest that he intends to go ahead with the sale quickly. I suggest there is room for some necessary consultation and discussion with people in the areas to work out what is best for each site.

Mr. M. Smith

The programme of relocation and the closure of barracks was done on a selected basis, primarily to minimise the effect on civilian and military personnel. I was in no position to consult with the representative associations until such time as I had a Government decision. Immediately following the Government decision I proceeded to meet the associations and discuss the decision the Government had taken.

As the Deputy knows, all previous efforts to close barracks which belong to a different era, and which were inherited by the State on its foundation, caused inordinate problems in terms of collective training and wastage of resources on security and housekeeping. This has been on the political agenda for about 20 years so to suggest that there has been no discussion about a matter which has been realistically expected for that length of time is unreal.

I have already had consultations at local level in relation to the disposal of sites. I intend to have further consultations with local authorities, commercial and other organisations in the various towns, first, to maximise the value of the sites in the context of re-equipping the Defence Forces and, second, to ensure the most suitable preparation for advancing the interests of the towns concerned through integrated plans. The widest possible consultations have begun and will continue until the matter is satisfactorily resolved. When I say they will be disposed of quickly, I intend to realise the assets as quickly as I can but that will be done in concert with local communities.

Ms Fitzgerald

I welcome the commitment to consultation because it has been singularly lacking in the Minister's approach to a number of issues — this is not the only one. Has the Minister put procedures in place and does he have any planned approach? My understanding is that there is a complete variation in the approach in each of the areas concerned. For example, there is a suggestion of using McKee Barracks in Kildare as an open prison. Other people are talking about some economic development taking place there. The Government should put in place an approach in each of these areas that will reassure local people it is taking account of the contribution they have made to Army barracks over the years. Such an approach would reassure local people and their communities that the Minister has a detailed plan in place that is workable and in which they will be involved. That is the least the Minister owes these communities.

Mr. M. Smith

I am very interested in reaching agreement with local communities on the basis of the proper development of the respective towns. I am not going to deal with rumours here. The Defence Forces is a great place for rumours at times, but I will certainly not deal with them.

Mr. Dukes

So is the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, it seems.

Mr. M. Smith

It is clear from all the public statements I have made that, first and foremost, I intend to sell by public tender the various sites that become available and to maximise their value by having integrated plans discussed with the local authorities, planning authorities and the various commercial and community organisations. I will proceed on that basis. I require the money to avoid the necessity of continually leaning on the taxpayer to provide the necessary funding for the equipment and infrastructural development necessary for the enhancement of the Defence Forces.

I reject the implication that I do not consult because I do so widely. This was a primary matter for successive Governments which had been totally ignored. I am glad of the dignified way in which the military and all personnel involved have been able to execute those closures. They deserve this House's congratulations for the manner in which they have conducted that matter.

Mr. Wall

Considering that the decision on closures was made some months ago, what consultation has taken place to date with the local authorities and groups in each area? As I understand it, very little consultation has taken place in the interim since the decision was made. What is the position about land which, in some areas, has been specifically zoned? How will the Minister handle such land, for example, Devoy Barracks in Naas, which is specifically zoned for educational purposes? How can he put that up for sale on open tender if the land is zoned for a particular purpose? Has there been consultation with Kildare County Council or Naas Urban District Council in relation to the specific zoning of that land?

Mr. M. Smith

The primary concern since the decision was taken was to ensure that it was executed properly and that the developments in the alternative installations, such as the Curragh, Collins Barracks and Kilworth Camp, were adequately prepared to take the personnel who were being relocated. Considerable investment was made in time and by the various military authorities and others to ensure they were completed in time. Once the site is available to me, discussions will be intensified with the local authorities. Some preliminary discussions have already taken place with the local authorities and others and are proceeding this week.

We have had an exercise with the Department of Education and Science in relation to Devoy Barracks. Its officials have been at that site on three occasions and we are awaiting a response from them. I appreciate that it has been zoned for educational purposes. Consultation with the Department of Education and Science is essential to resolve whatever problems may arise.

Mr. Wall

Is the Minister satisfied with the arrangement to move the Army Apprentice School to the Curragh? How far advanced is the move? What is the position with regard to the apprentices in the Army Apprentice School? Does the Minister envisage further apprenticeships being granted when the school moves to the Curragh?

Mr. M. Smith

That is the subject matter of another question. My first obligation is to ensure that the 28 apprentices in Devoy Barracks are enabled to complete their courses on time. I also want to deal with the teachers who were involved in Naas. These matters are proceeding. The facilities for a number of apprentices have already been organised and they are ready. There is some delay in completing the arrangements for a number of the specialities but the apprentices will be able to complete their course within the defined time.

Mr. Timmins

During his visit to Naas, the Minister said that those stationed in the barracks due to be closed would get the option of voluntary early retirement. Can the Minister confirm that this is the case? Perhaps he could clarify if the personnel in these barracks will be relocated within their operational area or will he allow people from Castleblayney, for example, to relocate to Dublin or Cork where they grew up?

Deputy Wall mentioned local authorities in relation to the rezoning of land. Perhaps the Minister could confirm if the local authorities have visited these barracks with a view to rezoning the land. If so, will the Minister stipulate that a certain amount of the land must be kept for local industries or sites which can be sold privately through the local authority?

It now appears that the Army Apprentice School will close once the students finish their courses. Did the Minister know when he visited Naas that the school would be closed and, if so, why did he not announce it?

Mr. M. Smith

As Deputy Timmins is aware, a military board sat a number of years ago to determine the advisability or otherwise of maintaining the Army Apprentice School in Naas. When that board reported, the Chief of Staff at the time decided there was no further need for the Army Apprentice School in its old style because of the various changes in the educational and training system. The school was established in 1956 when there were few alternative arrangements for apprenticeship or other training. However, regional technical colleges, technical institutes and FÁS training schemes now provide an alternative and cheaper system of training. There were 28 apprentices in Devoy Barracks and at a cost of £2.85 million a year over a three year span, this would represent approximately £285,000 per apprentice. That could not be sustained or justified.

On the voluntary early retirement scheme, I was concerned to introduce a scheme which would facilitate those members who met its criteria and wanted it specifically designed to cope with any problems which might arise in the five barracks facing imminent closure. Some 117 inquiries were made, of which 84 final applications were completed. Some 64 applications were accepted, 11 are still pending consideration and the balance have been withdrawn.

Mr. Timmins

Does the Minister believe that apprentices can be supplied from outside the Army Apprentice School at a time when the building industry is going through an unprecedented boom and it is difficult to get people with trades to work? Were personnel in the various barracks given the option of voluntary early retirement?

Mr. M. Smith

Everyone who applied for voluntary early retirement and met the criteria has been accepted. Some have withdrawn their applications and there are a number still under consideration.

As regards consultation with local authorities about the sites, we have prime and valuable sites. It is important that an integrated plan for those sites is agreed in consultation with the planning authorities and other local interests so that we can enhance the towns we are leaving. The tradition and loyalty of the Defence Forces in these areas is highly respected. I have no interest in a haphazard development; I want a good integrated plan. There will be consultations about that with the local authorities. Some of them are developing as we speak.

Ms Fitzgerald

On the one hand, the Minister seems to be saying that the sale of these lands will depend on market forces — we know what they will be like in the years ahead — but, on the other hand, he is saying there will be an integrated plan. Which is the case? Will he consult with the local communities and consider the housing needs of the area? Will he try to put something back into the communities or will he opt for a quick sale?

As regards the Army Apprentice School, the Minister said that consultation was not necessary because its closure was known about for many years. I disagree with that. Families had almost no time to prepare for these changes. I accept the dignified way they have dealt with the situation but the Minister gave them little time to prepare. He did not consult anyone and that is not a good way to do business.

Mr. Wall

What will happen to the teachers deployed by Kildare VEC in the Army Apprentice School if it does not continue under the remit of the Defence Forces at the Curragh?

Mr. Timmins

Can the Minister confirm that the local authority visited Clancy Barracks in recent days and, if so, has he received an initial report from it? On voluntary early retirement, did the Minister give a commitment to anyone who applied for voluntary early retirement that they would get it and then rescind that decision?

Mr. M. Smith

No.

Mr. Crawford

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister should be allowed to reply.

Mr. M. Smith

I reject Deputy Fitzgerald's contention that there was a lack of consultation. One can have a wide consultative process and get agreement to close Army barracks. There will not be unanimous agreement about the closure of anything in this country.

Ms Fitzgerald

Not unanimous agreement but consultation.

Mr. M. Smith

Someone must take the decisions.

Ms Fitzgerald

I am talking about consultation.

That does not mean decisions will not be taken.

Mr. M. Smith

There is an easy way to tell people that they must leave a certain place. We should grow up about this issue.

There are ten teachers in Devoy Barracks and there will be no forced redundancies. A number of them will move to the Curragh to deal with some of the continuing apprenticeship work which will continue there. Negotiations will proceed on the balance and on the best arrangement which can be made. I am anxious to facilitate the arrangements made in consultation with other parties to resolve that matter in an amicable way without having to resort to redundancies.

Mr. Timmins

What about Clancy Barracks and the local authority report?

Mr. M. Smith

I intend to visit Clancy Barracks tomorrow. I am not expecting a report, imminent or otherwise, from other local authorities. The closure of Clancy Barracks is a long-term matter and it will not take place before the year 2000.

An Ceann Comhairle

Before proceeding to the next question I find it necessary to draw Members attention to the Standing Order which stipulates that they should address their questions through the Chair. There is an increasing tendency among Members, particularly at Question Time, to address their remarks directly across the floor thereby ignoring the Chair. This is completely out of order. I hope I will not have to draw Members' attention to this matter again. Will they please address all supplementary questions through the Chair?