Richard Bruton
Ceist:26 Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for Education and Science the target he has set for class size over the next five years at secondary level. [25158/99]
Priority Questions. - Class Size.
The Deputy will know this is a complex issue and that simplistic approaches are not in the best interests of our schools and students. Analysis conducted by my Department indicates a very varied pattern of class size across the second level sector. In general, senior cycle classes are appreciably smaller than those at junior cycle and the pattern across subjects can vary significantly. It is in the nature of some subjects that they attract a relatively small cohort while core subjects typically account for larger classes. The Deputy will also be aware that there is a large number of relatively small classes.
At the root of the class size issue are factors such as subject range, school timetabling and individual school policy. While resources are undoubtedly also a factor there is no necessary link between these and class size. This is illustrated by the fact that schools with broadly similar enrolment profiles and staffing allocations can have quite different mixes of class sizes. To set targets for class size and to insist upon these being achieved could have quite arbitrary and unintended consequences for the education being delivered to students in individual schools. In effect, we would be curtailing local planning and insisting upon a uniform model of delivery.
Let me be quite clear that in taking this approach I am not suggesting our schools at second level have no need for additional resources. On the contrary, I am on record as stating I want to see more teachers in our second level schools. This year has already seen the first provision of additional teachers for some years. Staffing has been improved by more than 500 posts. The average class size has been reduced to 22.3, with 20.4 being the average at senior cycle. The national pupil-teacher ratio is 15.1: 1.
Our priority must be to ensure that the investment which we make in education operates to the benefit of our students. It was with this in mind that I recently established a technical group under the chairmanship of Dr. Seamus McGuinness to review the whole area of allo cation and redeployment at second level. It is my intention that the work of this group will provide a valuable underpinning for the framing of allocation policy in the future.
Is the Minister disputing the ASTI findings that two thirds of general subject classes contain 30 or more pupils?
We have different statistics and have conducted a detailed analysis of class sizes across the board. Deputies may be interested to know that at leaving certificate level, 9.5 per cent of classes have more than 30 pupils, in contrast with the 21.2 per cent of leaving certificate classes which have less than 15 pupils, which amounts to twice the percentage.
Those are classes in Hebrew and Spanish.
That is the point. Citing simplistic figures is not the correct approach. We need to be more sophisticated in how we allocate resources in the forthcoming year. We need to combine what we want to achieve educationally by the allocation of additional resources with the maintenance by schools of local autonomy in terms of what they want to provide, curriculum choice, and so on. We need to ensure resources are targeted at the disadvantaged. I have no difficulty in making the statistics available to Deputies as they are interesting.
That would be useful. I wish to ascertain the Minister's train of thought. I will put the question differently. I am sure he is aware Europeans spend 60 per cent more per secondary pupil and our class size is 30 per cent more. At this time when we have resources, will the Minister provide them so we will be closer to the European norm of class size and support services. Is that the direction he is taking? Is he willing to set some five year targets as milestones on the way to achieving that?
I am not prepared to set targets in that form. That is not the correct approach. I am prepared to allocate resources in a way which would help to achieve our educational objectives. Our key objectives at second level are to increase the school completion rate, provide students with the maximum curriculum choice and ensure schools have strategies to allocate resources in an effective manner.
Will the Minister no longer aim to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio? Are budget-related targets the future? Are we saying goodbye to PTRs?
We are not abolishing them completely. We set up a group under the chairmanship of Dr. Seamus McGuinness comprising six or seven individuals with considerable expertise on this matter. It will give indepth consideration to this issue and will report in five to six months, if not sooner. This will provide the framework for future allocation policies. We will also consult with the partners. We often trot out average class size figures and the national notional figure of 15:1 but this can be meaningless in different schools.