Jim O'Keeffe
Ceist:5 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Taoiseach if he will give details of his proposals for constitutional change prior to the next election; and the proposed dates for referenda. [1502/01]
Ceisteanna – Questions. - Constitutional Amendments.
Ruairí Quinn
Ceist:6 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the proposals he has for constitutional amendments during the year 2001; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1763/01]
Joe Higgins
Ceist:7 Mr. Higgins (Dublin West) asked the Taoiseach if he will be proposing constitutional amendments during 2001; and if he will report on the details in this regard. [3071/01]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin
Ceist:8 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach if he has proposals for constitutional amendments before the next general election; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3076/01]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 8, inclusive, together.
The Government is considering a number of possibilities in relation to referenda during 2001. Among matters being considered are the Nice Treaty and the International Criminal Court. The question of whether ratification of the Treaty of Nice will require a referendum is still under consideration. The Government will take a decision when the formal text of the Nice Treaty has been finalised by EU legal experts and when the advice of the Attorney General has been received. I hope and expect that we will soon be in a position to take that decision. However, I have asked officials to ensure that the preparatory work necessary for a referendum is put in train so as to give the Government the full range of options as to timing.
With regard to the International Criminal Court, the Attorney General has advised that for Ireland to ratify the statute, a constitutional referendum is required. The Department of Foreign Affairs has advised that the Bill is currently being drafted and it is hoped to have it published at an early date. A date for a referendum has not yet been decided.
The Government will decide in due course on the specific package of measures which shall be put to referenda this year and on the timing of these referenda.
Do I take it from the Taoiseach's reply that we are confined to the Nice Treaty and the International Criminal Court? He gave a commitment that there would be a referendum on abortion during the lifetime of the Government. What became of that? I understood that a commitment had been given on the necessity to amend the Constitution on the impeachment of judges.
The Deputy should not take it that these are all the changes that are proposed. I gave a commitment to the House on abortion and related legislation. This ought to be treated as a discrete item. The report of the all-party committee has made a valuable contribution to the debate and is before the Cabinet committee. We will not move on this issue until the Government can frame an amendment with legislation. I am not interested in a referendum for its own sake or one that will create division.
We do not disagree, but what will happen?
The Cabinet committee is still working on the matter. The consideration is how many items we can put in a referendum. There is the Nice Treaty, the International Criminal Court at the Hague and the all-party committee report on the judicial council which has long been finished. Last week we received Mrs. Justice Susan Denham's report, the short version of which I had the opportunity to read over the weekend. It will be implemented soon. There are some differences between the conclusions and those just expressed, particularly in the make-up of the judicial council. The concepts, however, are similar. The matter is important and we should deal with it. Four reports have been circulated to the Departments and analysed. Some other issues could also be dealt with. We will have to decide how many items can be put. There are three definite items and two or three others which have been listed as priorities. It is possible that four or five items will be put in the referendum. We have yet to make a decision on that.
I am anxious to make progress. There must be a referendum and we will take a number of the issues, particularly the three mentioned – the Nice Treaty, the International Criminal Court and the judicial council. One or two other items according to priority as specified by Deputy O'Keeffe and Deputy Lenihan may also be added.
Yesterday at the function in the Berkeley Court Hotel to honour the Irish commissioner as winner of the European Person of the Year award the Taoiseach made it very clear that there would be a referendum or plebiscite. The clear implication was that there would be a democratic vote by the people early in the summer. That is what I and those at the table with me heard. Can we have clarity on this matter? We all want to ratify the international criminal court. That requires a referendum. The other matter requires at least a plebiscite and possibly a referendum, if the legal advice is to that effect. The probability is that it does not require a referendum, having regard to the legal interpretation in other jurisdictions. Will the Taoiseach indicate now that we will have a referendum or plebiscite on two issues in the middle of May? One issue is the ratification of our obligations regarding the international criminal court and the other is the issue of the enlargement of the European Union. The Irish people can then express the point of view so eloquently expressed by the Taoiseach yesterday. Why all the shilly shallying and the equivocation? Why do we not just announce it and bring forward the legislation to make it happen?
The simple reason for that is I do not have the treaty. The treaty has to come in all versions, including the Irish language. Then it has to be put on the Cabinet table with the Attorney General's views. The Deputy's criticism would be justified if I made a decision without having a copy of the treaty. It is my view that the enlargement process is sufficiently important to be supported by the public. The formal decision must, however, go through normal Cabinet procedures. There is no shilly shallying. I cannot make a decision on a treaty that I do not have. It has not gone through the jurist or linguist group. It has not gone finally through the Commission or the Parliament. I do not even have a draft copy other than the one I brought back on 11 December. That is why I cannot give a definite answer.
Does theTaoiseach not accept that we need a legal referendum to ratify the international criminal court? The Irish electorate should be given the opportunity to endorse the process of enlargement of the European Union. That may not be a constitutional requirement but is it not a political imperative?
I ask the Deputy to be brief in fairness to other Members who are waiting to put supplementary questions.
The final test is not needed.
The Deputy is being unfair to other Members.
In fairness to Deputy Quinn, I agree with his comments, but I must follow the procedures under Cabinet rules.
(Dublin West): Does the Taoiseach agree it is highly unsatisfactory that, two months after the Nice summit, a decision still has not been made? Does the Taoiseach not know what he agreed to at Nice? Will he and his advisers, who, as we heard earlier, are well paid, state that the matters agreed between the leaders are of such substance, particularly the progress of the militarisation of the EU and the creation of an EU army which was pushed forward at the summit, that they must be put before the people? On that basis alone, does the Taoiseach agree a referendum is necessary?
Will the Taoiseach state, in the event of it being necessary, the date on which such a referendum would take place? Will he give a commitment, in the event of a general election being held in May or June – or whenever it takes place – that a referendum on the Nice summit will not take place on the same day? The issues arising from the summit are so significant and serious—
I ask the Deputy to put a question.
(Dublin West):—that they require a separate debate and decision. I ask the Taoiseach to give such a commitment.
The Deputy should not worry because that aspect will not arise. However, the Deputy's point shows why there is a need for the final text of the treaty because, unfortunately, he does not have the foggiest notion about what was agreed at Nice. The concept of a European army was ruled out a long time ago. There will be no European army under the Nice Treaty or any other measure.
(Dublin West): The Taoiseach did a U-turn on a referendum on the PfP.
There is a need for the final text and as soon as it is available, we will move on. As I said earlier in response to Deputy Quinn, my view on this matter is clear.
Is the Taoiseach aware that I was the director of elections for the Amsterdam Treaty, the Single European Act and the Maas tricht Treaty? I was also a member of the reflection group and I was previously the Minister with responsibility for European affairs. I am probably one of the most pro-European Members of the House. However, I share the concerns of Deputy Higgins. Important issues in the Nice Treaty need to be debated in the House. Will the Taoiseach give an undertaking that there will be a debate in the House, rather than in a committee, at an early date on the legislation or referendum he proposes? This will give Members an opportunity to express those concerns. Even those of us who are strongly pro-Europe feel certain issues need to be raised and debated.
Does the Taoiseach accept he has failed to achieve all-party consensus on the issue of a referendum on abortion? It increasingly appears that the Fianna Fáil Party is being driven by some Independents to pursue the aim of holding a constitutional referendum on abortion. Will the Taoiseach outline when he expects to hold this referendum because there is only a limited amount of time left? How many times has the Cabinet committee met to prepare the ground for what the Taoiseach and only a few others perceive as a desirable goal?
It is a reasonable conclusion that the only referenda will be on the international criminal court and the Nice Treaty. Does the Taoiseach agree that the referendum on the International Criminal Court is urgent because the ratification process is being held up? The Bill could be dealt with next week if the political will to introduce it existed. Regarding the Nice Treaty, does the Taoiseach agree that, as soon as the legal formal document is available, the necessary provision could be put in place within weeks?
Given the unique opportunity then of putting a number of issues before the electorate on a given day, will the Taoiseach give a commitment to deal with a long-standing commitment of his party on ground rents—
Some hope.
—and will he propose to put before the people the issue of abolition of ground rents?
Mr. Hayes
Ask Dr. Woods.
Over the years Fianna Fáil gave commitments on this issue. Will the Taoiseach give a commitment to deal with it once and for all?
Regarding future referenda, from time to time the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has referred to the leniency of Irish citizenship and to the conditions for naturalisation. Has the Government discussed proposals to change the Constitution with regard to people qualifying for Irish citizenship?
The answer to Deputy Mitchell's question is "yes", it would have to be debated here. However, I would remind Deputy Mitchell, who will be well aware of this because he played a prominent part, that most of the regulations regarding security and defence were contained in the Amsterdam Treaty and in the Maastrict Treaty. What is in this one is an advancement but it is very much—
It is the leftovers which we could not deal with at Amsterdam because it was so tricky.
No, it concludes some of the aspects of enlargement, but not on security and defence.
No. I am talking about the commissioner, for example.
Yes, but the Deputy said "and security and defence". On the commissioner, we now have managed to get what most people probably thought would not be possible – equal rotation for the future. Ten years hence there will be an equal rotation system—
A revolving commissioner.
—that will prove to be very successful when there will be more than 27 member states with equal rotation between the French, the Germans and all the other large countries.
I answered the question on the matter of abortion. The Cabinet committee has met on two occasions. It is working from the report of the all-party committee and will endeavour to see if it can frame legislation.
I would not look so negatively on the report. Deputy McManus was a member of the committee. The other positive aspects of it are already under way and I hope these will help in counselling and in other areas.
The answer to Deputy Owen's question is "no". That matter has not come up for consideration.
On Deputy O'Keeffe's question, there are those two issues but there are a few other issues we could handle equally.
On Deputy Ryan's question, yes, the Attorney General has been looking at the issue of ground rents. It is not an easy issue with which to deal, but perhaps it is not so impossible to deal with that issue either.
That concludes Taoiseach's Questions.