Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Feb 2001

Vol. 530 No. 1

Business of Dáil.

An Ceann Comhairle

Before the Order of Business today, I wish to make an announcement. On 14 October 1999 and subsequent dates, I made a ruling to allow for a brief topical question from the Leaders, which in my view reflected the evolving practice, and in December last year I circulated to all Members a detailed explanatory note on the Order of Business indicating the scope of the procedure on the Leaders' questions.

I was perfectly within my rights, as Ceann Comhairle, to make my ruling on the Leaders' questions facility. However, in view of the fact that this facility has been challenged on a number of occasions and was seriously challenged yesterday, and the fact that the perimeters have been pushed out daily in regard to what can be raised on Leaders' questions resulting in prolonged debate and disorder, I have come to the conclusion that this facility must be provided for by a change in Standing Orders. Accordingly, as it is important that all Members know where we stand in regard to the procedures that are in operation on the Order of Business, I intend from today to strictly maintain the position set out in Standing Order 26(3) on matters that can be raised.

It is a matter for the Dáil reform sub-committee in the first instance to propose amendments to Standing Orders and the matter of raising topical issues, which I have tried to deal with, can be provided for in that committee and put forward for agreement by the House as a Standing Order in its own right. This is the best and only way to proceed. In the meantime, the Leaders' questions facility will not continue except in relation to the issue of Northern Ireland. I call the Taoiseach on the Order of Business.

Mrs. Owen

Would it be possible to make a brief comment later?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes.

The Taoiseach

A Cheann Comhairle, when you made that ruling, the first time such a ruling was made in my years in the House, I understood your reason for doing so because relevant topical issues which were being discussed in the media and in the newspapers could not be raised here. As Taoiseach, I abided by that ruling and I hope I have tried to use the topical questions facility to the advantage of the House as best I could, but I understand your reasoning. The Government, through the Chief Whip, will do all it can to work with the parties on an all-party basis. I have no objection in principle to the topical questions facility. There are many other issues that I believe will improve the House and, as you suggested, we will co-operate fully in working this matter through the sub-committee on Dáil reform. I will instruct the Chief Whip today to talk to the other Whips about how to deal with that and other matters as soon as possible.

Mrs. Owen

A Cheann Comhairle, while fully endorsing your right to do this, I regret you have found it necessary to put on hold your ruling, which Fine Gael warmly welcomed at the time, that the Leaders could make a statement on a topical issue. It is regrettable that you have found yourself in this position. Fine Gael has always tried to obey your ruling on this matter. I hope the Standing Order can be changed as quickly as possible. I do not know who you will be facing on this bench next week, a Cheann Comhairle, and it is unfortunate that whoever will be sitting in this seat next week will not have that facility until such time as the Standing Order is altered. This facility has been beneficial to the work and the relevancy of this House. I appreciate you are doing this because you believe it is not being abided by and because it was challenged yesterday, but I hope you will do everything in your power to change the Standing Order within the next few days and bring it before the House so that this procedure can continue.

An Ceann Comhairle

I assure the Deputy I will do everything possible to facilitate the necessary change but it is, in the first instance, a matter for the committee on Standing Orders.

Mrs. Owen

I do not know whether you are the chairperson of that committee—

An Ceann Comhairle

No, I am not.

Mrs. Owen

Perhaps the chairperson, Deputy Seamus Brennan, could take on board the wishes of everyone in this House because the Members opposite do not know when they will be on these benches – I hope it will be after the next election – and they will be glad they were speedy in amending this Standing Order. I look forward to agreeing the change to the Standing Order, perhaps tomorrow morning.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Deputy was not too good about changing Standing Orders when she was on this side of the House.

Mr. Quinn

All of us elected to the House have different functions to perform and different obligations to the electorate who put its trust in us. We either have to perform the tasks of Govern ment under the rule of law or, just as importantly, to perform the tasks of Opposition in keeping whatever Government is elected to account and holding it up to account so that the Fourth Estate, the media, can reflect back to the electorate what is happening inside the Chamber.

You, Sir, are the interpreter of the rules and I recognise, without question, your authority in that respect. However, we also have to adhere to rules and one of the primary rules the leader of an Opposition party has is to maintain vigorous opposition so that democracy might function and people get the Government, of whatever complexion, to which it is entitled. Your interpretation of what you consider to be unacceptable behaviour yesterday from my party – I take it that the remarks were directed to my party – are unacceptable to me.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Quinn

Surely I am still allowed to express an opinion. Is that going to be suffocated as well?

Mr. D. Ahern

Do not be so precious.

Mr. Quinn

I am not being precious.

Mr. C. Lenihan

Brownie points with the media.

Mr. Quinn

I am simply expressing the point that when I asked a question as to when the Taoiseach might reply to a letter I wrote on 4 January you, Sir, offered the view that I had asked that question the day before and, therefore, I could not ask it again.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not revisit that matter now. He will address himself to the matter before the House.

Mr. Quinn

In your liberal and welcome interpretation of a facility for Leaders' questions where a leader of a party can raise a topical issue, surely the question of correspondence which had been unanswered was sufficient for me to raise? There has to be a way within the rules of the House and the orderly conduct of debate for Opposition Deputies and the Leader of an Opposition party to ask a question of the Taoiseach and not have it circumscribed on the basis that it was asked the day before and cannot be asked subsequently simply because no reply was offered the day before. That in effect would give whoever was Taoiseach a veto whereby simply not answering a question on day one would mean the same question could not be answered on days two, three, four, five or six.

This is not the place where rules and procedures should be debated or negotiated, but there is an absolute necessity for this and any Opposition – I am as much protecting the rights of Fianna Fáil when it is returned to Opposition after the next election—

Mr. M. Smith

The Deputy should not be in any rush about that.

Mr. Quinn

—to have the same ability to interrogate whatever Government is in office as we must have. Otherwise this democracy does not function.

I respectfully suggest, Sir, that you reconsider what you have announced in consultation with the relevant representatives of the parties so that we find a way of continuing to make this House relevant. Sadly, that is not what is happening in the wider field.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): If the Dáil has any relevance we must be able to raise issues of public importance as soon as it meets, and the Order of Business is when this can be done. It is not acceptable that small parties, single Deputy parties etc. would be excluded from this process and that only the Leaders of Fine Gael and Labour would be able to intervene. They do not speak for me. In the drawing up of a new Standing Order – you, Sir, said it has to be stated categorically what is and is not allowable – everyone accepts that the bigger parties will have much more time. A total exclusion of small parties from making any comment is not acceptable. We want our democratic right in that regard.

The Taoiseach

I want to make a point, without answering any of the points made. As a former Leader of the Opposition and now as Taoiseach I know better than anyone else in the House how the system works on the Order of Business.

Mrs. Owen

We will let the Taoiseach practice being in Opposition again soon.

The Taoiseach

Maybe. On the ruling, I make the point to all my colleagues, including those on this side of the House, that what the Ceann Comhairle operated from 1997 was an enormous change from the previous position when it was strictly matters of legislation under Standing Order 26A which could be raised. We then allowed topical issues to be raised – the Ceann Comhairle made two statements. This has been stretched left, right and centre. I have played my part in the lack of order by simply going along with it. However, this is not the only issue.

There is a number of important issues which need to be raised. If we really are serious – and sometimes I wonder about this – about making the House relevant we could look at these issues. I am not against this ruling or some of the other issues in principle. As I have stated previously, the Taoiseach of the day spends an average of three hours on the floor of the House each day. This does not happen anywhere else in Europe. It is the most accountable – this was the same in the past – and, under the new rules, the most open Parliament. Those are the facts.

I am prepared to work with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on Dáil reform in the best interests of Members, while understanding your dilemma, a Cheann Comhairle. You have been more generous than anyone has ever been. That is a fact—

Mr. Rabbitte

It is not a fact.

The Taoiseach

It is a fact.

Mr. Rabbitte

Do not be ridiculous.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please, Deputy Rabbitte.

The Taoiseach

When I was on that side of the House—

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

The Taoiseach

—and sought to raise a topical question with the Deputy I was shot down after only ten seconds. That is how it worked and the Deputy was the beneficiary of that.

Mr. Rabbitte

Do not be absurd.

Mr. Martin

When the Deputy's party was in Government it knocked every reform put on the table.

Mr. Howlin

Rubbish.

The Taoiseach

I am prepared to work towards changes under the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on this and other relevant issues.

Mrs. Owen

The committee on Standing Orders will meet later today.

Mr. Flanagan

Notwithstanding your entitlement to make a personal statement, a Cheann Comhairle – of which Members received no notice – I put it to you that there will be a perception, however misguided it may be, that you are protecting the Government by restricting debate in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not refer to that issue.

Mr. Flanagan

In order to rebut that perception, I ask you to use your offices to facilitate the early convening of the appropriate committee with a view to drafting today a Standing Order which will meet your requirement and allow issues of a topical nature to be raised, as has been the practice in the House in recent years. I think you will agree with the importance of having the parameters of such a measure contained in Standing Orders and I appeal to you to facilitate positive activity in that regard today and no later.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have already stated that it is a matter for the Committee on Pro cedure and Privileges and that I will facilitate that procedure in so far as I can.

Mr. Flanagan

In your capacity as Chairman of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

An Ceann Comhairle

I repeat that I as Ceann Comhairle will allow any matter to be raised in the House provided it is in accordance with Standing Orders.

Mr. Sargent

The Green Party understands the predicament in which you find yourself, a Cheann Comhairle, given the origins of the convention now under discussion. Northern Ireland was the focus of the statements at the time of the initiation of the convention when there was a national and international crisis in terms of violent activity. Will the Ceann Comhairle bear in mind the development in that crisis when we are looking at this Standing Order and taking into account that there is now an inclusive assembly in Northern Ireland as a result of the debate?

An Ceann Comhairle

I had already made that clear in my statement.

Mr. Sargent

I ask that the revised Standing Order should reflect that inclusive development in this House so that, whatever convention is decided upon, smaller parties will not be excluded.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the sub-committee. The Deputy's party has a very able representative on that sub-committee who, I am sure, will put forward that view.

Mrs. Owen

Nothing the Taoiseach has said gives me confidence that he recognises the importance of the Chair's statement and exhortation today that Standing Orders must be changed in order that tomorrow we will be able to continue with the practice he has allowed in recent months. I ask again for a firm commitment from the Minister of State who chairs the committee on Standing Orders that he will convene a meeting of that committee today. The amendment needed to Standing Orders does not involve rocket science. It would be a very simple amendment in order that we may proceed tomorrow morning to raise issues that are current and will be silenced only today in relation to such issues. The Taoiseach lauds himself on being on his feet for three hours in this House dealing with issues that have been raised. However, by the time the issues are dealt with they are not as relevant as they were four days previously when the question was put down. Therefore, the method of putting questions to the Taoiseach should also be examined as part of our programme for democratic revolution, and consideration given to providing for much shorter notice.

I thank you, a Cheann Comhairle, but it is not enough to finish this debate without a commit ment from the Minister of State, Deputy Séamus Brennan that he will convene a meeting of the Standing Order Committee today. We would have no problem in amending the Standing Orders at 2.30 p.m. or 4.30 p.m. in order that tomorrow morning the procedure allowed by the Ceann Comhairle up to now can resume and leaders of parties can raise matters of topical interest. We need that commitment now.

Mr. Quinn

A Cheann Comhairle you, as Ceann Comhairle, are also chairperson of the Committee on Procedures and Privileges. Since you have seen fit to raise this matter in the manner that you have, I ask that you convene a meeting of the committee to discuss this matter as a matter of urgency. This matter requires the participation of the full membership of the committee, which is representative of all of the Members of this House and not just the Whips of the main parties. It is necessary for the committee to look at the matter you have seen fit to bring before this House, to assist you in the interpretation of the rules so that you can enable every Member of this House to raise matters of concern provided they are in order, and I fully accept that that is your sole concern and that you are not exercising censorship. However, to facilitate you in maintaining order and to enable us to do our task in this Assembly, I urgently request that you convene a meeting of Committee on Procedure and Privileges some time today to address the net point that has arisen this morning and which you saw fit to bring before this House, so that we can continue in the spirit of what you set about in the first instance, but within a framework of rules and standards that are clearly understood by all of us.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will consider what the Deputy has said, but I point out that the committee is a sub-committee of the Committee on Procedures and Privileges which gave the sub-committee the power to deal with Dáil reform. I will consider the Deputy's main point and come back to him.

Mr. Quinn

Let me explain something so that there will not be a sense of non-co-operation. We have indicated clearly that we will not participate in so-called reforms while at the same time this Government is bringing forward an electoral Act which will effectively tear up reforms in relation to the conduct of politics.

Mr. Howlin

That is a fact.

Mr. Quinn

I do not want the Chair to misunderstand the situation.

Mr. Howlin

The committee does not exist.

Mr. Quinn

The committee does not exist because it requires the participation of all of the parties and we have clearly indicated to the Chief Whip, the Minister of State, Deputy Brennan, that we will not participate in that committee for reasons already stated. This is a net point about procedure on a single issue in this House, not the reform of the Dáil per se, and because you, a Cheann Comhairle, correctly saw fit to raise it in the manner in which you did, I respectfully suggest that it is not the remit of the so-called committee on Dáil reform, which is now defunct, but of the Committee on Procedures and Privileges, which you chair, and that you take that point on board.

Mr. S. Brennan

It is not defunct.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is the Standing Orders sub-committee.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The Ceann Comhairle is quite right to seek an amendment to the Standing Orders. However, the arbitrary withdrawal of the existing informal practice pending agreement on a new Standing Order is of concern for two reasons. It may be difficult to get agreement quickly on a new Standing Order. In the short-term that gives undue influence to those who would want a restrictive Standing Order. I urge you to reconsider the withdrawal of the informal arrangement given the view of the House that we need a new Standing Order. Let us all work together to get that agreed as quickly as possible but in the meantime let us not axe the existing informal arrangement.

Mr. R. Bruton

I sought to make the same point as Deputy O'Keeffe. It is important that you should retain the initiative and continue with the existing procedure until a satisfactory alternative Standing Order is put before the House. You are the guardian, particularly of those who are not in a majority in the House. You have done what was correct for the Chair and have acted entirely properly. You should not be forced to withdraw the interpretation you have made until an alternative satisfactory Standing Order is put in place. I strongly back Deputy O'Keeffe and ask you to consider his proposal as an alternative approach, bearing in mind your desire to have this situation formalised, which is perfectly understandable.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have announced my ruling on the matter. I appreciate what Deputies have said.