Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Mar 2003

Vol. 563 No. 2

Leaders' Questions.

Mr. Kenny

As we move towards St. Patrick's weekend, the world is consumed with arguments about the possibility of war on Iraq. Europe is now sharply divided on this issue. In recent weeks, I have endeavoured in the House to get a straight answer from the Taoiseach by direct questioning on the Government's attitude towards this potentially catastrophic situation. The Taoiseach travels to the United States today and has a private meeting with the US President tomorrow. He has already confirmed that he is opposed to war, that he supports the United Nations and that he has a difference of opinion with America on the issue of Iraq. He has also confirmed that he does not want to insult the American Government and people.

In that context, has the Minister for Foreign Affairs been contacted by the US Secretary of State, Mr. Powell, in regard to Ireland's position on Iraq if an invasion by the United States takes place without a UN resolution? Has the Taoiseach had any contact from the US President on this point? If that is not the case, will the Taoiseach during his private meeting with President Bush tomorrow – as one friendly leader to another – inform the President that in the event of action being taken against Iraq by the United States on its own or with Britain without a second resolution from the United Nations, refuelling and over-flight facilities at Shannon will be withdrawn? Will the Taoiseach tell the American President in a straight manner that, as a friendly nation, friends can differ on issues of principle such as this?

The Taoiseach

I can confirm that the Government has had numerous discussions with the US Administration, including with its envoy in Dublin, Ms Jane Fort. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, has had a number of conversations with Ambassador Haass, and, while I do not think the Minister has had any discussions with Secretary of State Powell in recent days, he has had several discussions in past weeks. I understand that the Minister spoke with Ambassador Haass on Saturday and Monday last.

At my meetings in the United States, I will stress our consistent position which is support for the United Nations. I will restate that for the United Nations to be effective and respected, it must be united in purpose as well as in name. Saddam Hussein and his brutal regime in Iraq pose precisely the kind of threat to international peace and security with which the United Nations was created to deal. The ways and means of doing that were set out in the UN Charter in a very logical sequence and Ireland has supported the charter since 1955. The peoples of the United Nations, in whose name the charter is adopted, look to the members of the Security Council to try to find a compromise and to work together to do that. I hope they will succeed in that.

My position remains as it was. If there is no second resolution, that creates major difficulties for everybody and means that military action would be taken by countries without the support of international opinion. At the last hour, I will restate the need for force to be averted if Saddam Hussein seizes the opportunity available to him and if the Security Council is allowed to do its job. The Security Council is still trying to do that. It has a resolution in front of it and is endeavouring to come to agreement on it. The UN Secretary General, Mr. Kofi Annan, has been working to the best of his ability in recent days to try to achieve compromise.

If all of those things do not happen and war takes place unilaterally, the Government will recall the House and set out its position.

Mr. Kenny

I know that this is a difficult call for the Taoiseach to make, depending on the question he is asked. However, the Taoiseach is meeting in private with the US President tomorrow for a meeting scheduled to last half an hour. He has referred to Ireland's consistent position.

Mr. M. Higgins

What is it?

Mr. Kenny

What is Ireland's consistent position?

Mr. M. Higgins

That is the question.

Mr. Kenny

If we support the United Nations and are opposed to war, can I assume that the Taoiseach will tell President Bush that, in the event of the US taking action against Iraq without a second resolution from the United Nations, Ireland's consistent position will be, in keeping with our United Nations traditions, that the over-flight and other facilities at Shannon will be withdrawn? Is that our consistent position and will the Taoiseach tell that to the American President?

Has the Government considered the question of support for the British position in regard to a second resolution and does the Taoiseach have a view on that?

The Taoiseach

With regard to the first question, the Government has already relayed to the United States its concerns so it will not be hearing our position for the first time. However, I will relay those concerns again. The Government has, of course, discussed what action it will take if certain eventualities arise. I hope while in the United States to have the opportunity to state that. Deputy Kenny would also appreciate that, in the absence of a second resolution, we will set out a position in a way that befits whatever action we must take.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Kenny

What does that mean?

The Taoiseach

There is no point in Members asking for a recall of the House in order for the Government to restate its position when the situation arises while, at the same time, calling on me to state that position now. I have not stated it since September and will not do so now. I am sure that Deputy Kenny and Deputy Michael D. Higgins, who cannot speak during Leaders' Questions, would, like me, acknowledge France's position which is very strong on all these issues. France has already stated its willingness to allow stop-over flights—

Mr. Gormley

France is not a neutral country. It is a member of NATO.

The Taoiseach

The 22 Arab states have stated their intention to provide landing facilities. Some flights that did not land in Ireland in recent weeks went instead to Germany. I am sure the Deputies also note Germany's position.

A Deputy

What is our position?

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

I will set out and explain our position. Our position is consistently and strongly one of support for the work of the United Nations until such time as that fails.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is clear from the Taoiseach's remarks that, like the rest of his Cabinet in Cheltenham, he would like to take an each way bet on the war. I return to the contribution of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to the debate last night on the Labour Party's freedom of information Bill. He said that the Information Commissioner had exceeded his powers. I ask the Taoiseach whether he agrees that the Government has abused its powers. The commentary this morning universally describes the actions of the Government, in conceiving legislative amendments in secret, as excessive, repressive, draconian and unnecessary. The comments of the Information Commissioner make clear that the Government's proposed amendment to the Freedom of Information Act 1997 will effectively fillet the Act.

Is the Taoiseach saying that the documents released, for example, under freedom of information legislation which showed the differences that exist between the Department of Health and Children and the Department of Finance have somehow damaged the public debate on health? The week before last, a Beaumont Hospital memorandum was revealed. This morning, we had revelations about the Mater Hospital. Consultants in the Dublin region say that the 50 beds to be closed in the Mater are only the beginning and that between 300 and 350 beds will be closed in other Dublin hospitals. Doctors are idle, nurses are over-worked and patients are being denied access to beds, yet the Taoiseach is somehow saying that the public debate on this has been damaged by the release of documents under freedom of information legislation.

I ask the Taoiseach whether, at this late stage, he will accept the Labour Party Bill on freedom of information. That Bill would merely extend for one year the existing Act to allow for proper public consultation on a critical matter that informs the character of our democracy. Why does the Government persist in railroading its proposed changes through the Houses of the Oireachtas? I ask the Taoiseach whether he will, even at this stage, recall Cheltenham Charlie to at least defend the Bill amid the charade that is going on in the Upper House.

The Taoiseach

The Information Commissioner, in his report yesterday, stated that he would not comment on a Bill before the House. He went on to report on certain matters and to make suggestions which will be examined by the Department of Finance. Many of them, I believe, have already been examined by the Department of Finance as the report makes clear that they have been in correspondence for some time.

Deputy Rabbitte mentions matters such as reports from hospitals and correspondence between the Minister and chief executives of hospitals such as Beaumont, the Mater, the Wilton or any other. These will continue to be available under freedom of information legislation. The Government's proposed Bill has no implications for collective Cabinet responsibility, which is a constitutional provision, or for the deliberative process or working groups in Cabinet. As I outlined yesterday, information relating to matters of public interest, personal matters, travel and subsistence, use of the Government jet, communications between Ministers and chairmen and chief executives and staff employed as political advisers will continue to be available. It will not be affected by the proposed Bill.

It is not my fault that people continue to misunderstand this and to write about the issue in a way that is not factual. I can only state the factual position and hope that people listen to what I say. I cannot make journalists write it, but some of the points made in this morning's newspapers are untrue. Matters relating to the NRA, planning issues, the Competition Authority, valuations, local authorities and hospitals are not affected by the Government Bill.

In relation to health issues, the Minister for Health and Children has been asked questions on the national airwaves about what is going on. A process takes place at this time every year of dealing with the hospitals, including the teacher training hospitals in Dublin, which are under particular focus today. That process will continue for another few weeks. Some 24% of entire State expenditure this year will be devoted to the Department of Health and Children. The Department has received an additional €902 million since 2002. Of the entire expenditure increase provided for in the Book of Estimates for 2003 over 2002, 34% is allocated to the Department of Health and Children. We have increased hospital staff from 68,000 to 96,000. This figure was under 60,000 less than a decade ago. The Minister for Health and Children has received a large slice of available resources – over one third. I acknowledge that there are still difficulties. The Minister and his officials and the ERHA are trying to deal with them. They stem mainly from the fact that some hospitals have over-run their budgets for three years because they were insufficient to cope with their service demands. The Minister appreciates that, and I think that answers Deputy Rabbitte's question.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is simply not true that the Information Commissioner does not concentrate on the deliberative process. At the heart of his criticism is the situation whereby a Secretary General can certify documents as being related to the deliberative process and, thus, not available for release. That is a fact. I ask the Taoiseach how he can reconcile the extent of cuts we are now seeing in the health service with statements by the Minister for Finance, who is away in Cheltenham and, no doubt, accepting the plaudits of the bloodstock industry, whom he protected from paying their fair share of taxation yet again. On 28 February, he stated that anyone who regarded the budgetary restrictions being imposed on Departments as cutbacks was "numerically challenged." We have heard this morning about 50 beds going in the Mater. Some 300 to 350 beds are to go in the Dublin teaching hospitals. Yet, the Minister for Finance went on to say that only a fool would describe what was going on in places like Beaumont and the Mater – where plans to treat 1,100 patients are being considered – as the result of Government cutbacks. I ask the Taoiseach whether he agrees with Cheltenham Charlie—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should refer to the Minister by his title.

Mr. Quinn

It would help if he was here.

Mr. Rabbitte

—that only a fool would describe the cutbacks as having these effects.

The Taoiseach

I would totally object to anybody abusing the deliberative process. Let us be straight about the fact that the deliberative process ends at a particular period, so it cannot be abused within the legislation if the Secretary General certifies documents. I accept that somebody could allow the deliberative process to run for years, but that would be entirely against my wishes. There should be a clear end to the deliberative process.

Deputy Rabbitte will accept that Article 28.4 of the Constitution states that "the Government shall meet and act as a collective authority, and shall be collectively responsible for the Departments of State administered by the members of the Government" and that "the confidentiality of discussions at meetings of the Government shall be respected in all circumstances". I do not believe that the legislation does anything other than safeguard these constitutional provisions. Perhaps Deputy Rabbitte has a more secretive mind than me and will abuse the new legislation, but I will not.

Mr. Rabbitte

Did the Taoiseach read Kevin Murphy's report?

The Taoiseach

I did.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte should allow the Taoiseach to conclude.

Mr. Rabbitte

Mr. Murphy gave an example of precisely this situation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach's minute has concluded.

The Taoiseach

As I said yesterday, I will look carefully at what Mr. Murphy has said.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach shut him out and did not allow him to say anything.

The Taoiseach

Mr. Murphy issues reports all the time, but he is not the referee of the Constitution.

Mr. Ring

It was a good and truthful report.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach's minute has concluded.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform does not believe that Mr. Murphy is entitled to any view.

The Taoiseach

On health matters, I repeat that the Department of Health and Children has received an extra €900 million this year, which is an increase of 34%? Its staff numbers have increased from 68,000 to 96,000.

Ms McManus

Patients are suffering.

The Taoiseach

It puzzles me that difficulties remain when there is such a great deal of resources, staff and equipment, but we have to try to deal with it.

Mr. Sargent

People are getting sicker.

The Taoiseach

Nobody is working harder to achieve improvement than the Minister for Health and Children and the three Ministers of State at that Department.

Mr. Crawford

That is some praise.

Mr. Sargent

My party would prefer if the Taoiseach did not pay a visit to the United States, given that a war in Iraq has been threatened, but it seems he is determined to go. He said yesterday and today that he would highlight the differences between the Irish and US positions during his discussions with the US President, Mr. Bush. If he is to set out a certain point of view and to stand by the United Nations, it is fair that he should tell the House what he will say to Mr. Bush and that he should explain how his opinion differs from the US President's view.

The Taoiseach should clarify which United Nations he intends to stand by. Will he stand by the US interpretation of the UN, which is that a veto does not matter as long as there are nine votes in favour of a new Security Council resolution or will he stand by the view of the UN articulated by France, which is determined to ensure that the veto is respected, as required by international law? Will the Taoiseach take into account the perception in the EU, based on the negotiations on CAP reform, that Ireland is supporting the US view of the best way to proceed in relation to Iraq? The Government's position on this matter is damaging Ireland's position in the CAP reform negotiations. Will the Taoiseach take this opportunity, before he travels to the United States, to clarify his views to the House and the Irish people? Which view of the United Nations does he support?

The Taoiseach

There is one United Nations.

Mr. Sargent

There is not.

The Taoiseach

There has always been one United Nations. Ireland shares the goals of the United Nations, that Iraq should be disarmed by peaceful means, if at all possible, and that agreement should be reached among members of the UN. I have continually said that the UN should be united in purpose if it is to be effective and Ireland would like such a position to be achieved. I will say at the last hour, as I am saying today and will say tomorrow, that there is a need to avoid the use of force. The avoidance of the use of force lies in the hands of Saddam Hussein, who has caused these problems.

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach sounds like George Bush.

The Taoiseach

The problems have not been caused by the United States or the United Nations. It is important that Iraq complies with the Security Council. Ireland will endeavour to achieve a peaceful resolution and I will state our amended position if this cannot be achieved. This country has been a loyal defender of the UN for many years. Our troops have been sent to Congo, Cyprus, Lebanon and East Timor. We have been faithful servants of the UN, which is our collective security system, and we stand by it. I am amazed Deputy Sargent does not understand that there is only one United Nations.

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach should appreciate that there are at least two views within the UN.

The Taoiseach

I am surprised the Deputy does not understand the UN Charter. I will state my views to the US President when I have an opportunity to do so.

Mr. Gogarty

The Taoiseach does not respect the House.

Mr. Sargent

I take it as an implicit insult to this House that the Taoiseach will state his views to the President of the United States but he will not tell the House which of the views within the United Nations he supports. It is clear that the UN is not united at present, as there would be a resolution to this matter if it were. Is the Taoiseach aware that other bodies are making contingency plans in the expectation of a war? Development agencies are bracing themselves for an almighty humanitarian crisis and the business sector has arranged work stoppages in the event of war. The Irish Hotels Federation is bracing itself for a downturn in tourism and Aer Lingus has said it will refund the cost of tickets to those who do not wish to go to the US if a war breaks out. Irish citizens, such as Michael Bermingham, as well as citizens of other countries, including the US and the UK, are staying in Iraq to bear witness to the violence that will unfold. Haliburton, a company associated with Dick Cheney, is making plans to reconstruct Iraqi oil fields after the war.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time is up.

Mr. Sargent

Will the Taoiseach outline the contingency plans being drawn up by the Irish Government? Will overflights be continued, but only if they are humanitarian? Will aircraft carrying weapons to Iraq continue to be allowed to fly over this country? Will the Taoiseach, at least, consider wearing a "no to war" sticker when he visits the White House to get his message across?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's minute has concluded.

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach's comments on this matter have not been clear.

The Taoiseach

Perhaps Deputy Sargent did not hear me state yesterday that it is regrettable that efforts to implement Resolution 1441 have created tensions within the Security Council. Everybody knows that such tensions exist. One can see on television every night that permanent members of the council are working in direct opposition to each other, which is a cause of considerable regret. Ireland shares the goal of the United Nations in relation to reaching agreement. The Government has consistently stated that a second resolution is needed if Resolution 1441, which was unanimously agreed, is to be implemented.

Mr. Gogarty

What if there is no second resolution?

The Taoiseach

It could not be clearer that the Government would like to see a second resolution.

Mr. Sargent

What will happen if there is no second resolution?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach should be allowed to conclude without interruption.

The Taoiseach

The Government will spell out its position if there is not a second resolution.

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach should spell it out now.

The Taoiseach

No, I will not do it now.

Mr. Gormley

The people have a right to know the Government's position.

The Taoiseach

I will not do it now.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gormley may not speak as he is not the leader of his party.

The Taoiseach

I have no intention of doing it now.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach should be allowed to speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach

I find it hard to listen—

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach should be on this side.

The Taoiseach

—to the Green Party's comments, given that the German Foreign Minister, who is a member of that party—

Mr. Gormley

Why does the Taoiseach not support him?

The Taoiseach

Why should I support him? Does the Deputy know what he does? If we stop flights from coming into Shannon Airport, he will be the first to try to get them to land in Germany.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Sargent

Germany is in NATO.

The Taoiseach

Is that not a marvellous system?

Mr. Sargent

It is a member of NATO.

The Taoiseach

So it is NATO—

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach's minute has concluded.

Mr. Gogarty

Germany is not a neutral country.

The Taoiseach

At least I have a consistent position and I am not like the French, who allow the US to overfly, despite the fact that they are against the war and may veto a new resolution.

Mr. O'Dowd

What about Fianna Fáil's links with the DeGaulists?

The Taoiseach

Let us not be silly.

Mr. Gormley

France and Germany are not neutral countries. We are neutral.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gormley, allow the Taoiseach to speak.

The Taoiseach

We have stuck consistently to the UN position and we will continue to do so.

Mr. Sargent

What about Austria, a country that does not allow overflights?

The Taoiseach

I will not change my position every day to suit the Green Party.

Mr. Sargent

There has been no change.