Amendment No. 1 is not appropriate to Report Stage and amendment No. 2 has been ruled out of order.
Garda Síochána (Police Co-operation) Bill 2003 [ Seanad ] : Report and Final Stages.
Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 not moved.
I move amendment No. 3:
In page 4, between lines 37 and 38, to insert the following:
"(a) subject to this Act, be a member of the Garda Síochána,”.
I tabled this amendment to be helpful to the Minister. We must have certainty of the legal status of PSNI members when they are assigned to this jurisdiction. This is a matter for clarification. The Bill does not state whether a PSNI member will be a member of the Garda Síochána for the time such a member is assigned to this jurisdiction. Section 3(3)(b) states that such a person would have powers, duties, rights and obligations as a member of the Garda Síochána. Why is this paragraph included if such a person would not be a member of the Garda Síochána? This matter requires clarification and I ask the Minister to address it.
It is important that this point is raised. It is a matter for the Minister to clarify whether the amendment will add to the Bill or otherwise. It is appropriate that my colleague has sought to ensure that this Bill is worded to optimum effect. This is a historic and important Bill. It is an indication of the maturing of Irish society. It is also an indication by the Oireachtas that there is wholehearted acceptance of the Good Friday Agreement and the subsequent agreements since then. From that point of view, we need to get the wording of the Bill exactly right. That is not in any way to suggest that the central point of the Bill is not something which I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically endorse.
I was glad to have the opportunity yesterday to see members of the PSNI in the police college in Northern Ireland. I went there with other members of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body. It was heart-warming to observe the spirit and morale in that college. It has problems in terms of accommodation and on the infrastructure side in that the building needs to be replaced. That was not the issue. The issue is that young men and women are studying there to become members of the PSNI. Its membership is a mixture of gender and, under the 50:50 rule, of people from the different communities drawn from an enormous recruitment pool, which we all must enthusiastically endorse and support. A further development of the PSNI is the implementation of the recommendations arising from Patton and elsewhere for the exchange of members between the two forces, which we all must also enthusiastically endorse, and I certainly do so.
On the amendment, I am open to argument as to whether the phraseology suggested by the Deputy is an improvement of the Bill or otherwise. It is up to the Minister to convince us one way or the other. This amendment does not take from the central tenor of the approach, which should be the enthusiastic support and endorsement by all Members for the development that is taking place under this Bill.
I am opposed to this amendment because it is clear from the provisions of section 3 (1)(a) that a member of the Police Service of Northern Ireland who is seconded to the Garda Síochána and appointed under this section is appointed to a rank in the Garda Síochána. The relevant words are “appoint a member of the Police Service of Northern Ireland to a rank in the Garda Síochána”.
A person appointed under this section will be formally appointed to the Garda Síochána. He or she will be under the direction and control of the Garda Commissioner, as is provided for in section 3(3)(a). In addition, section 3(3)(b) provides that he or she will have the powers, duties, rights and obligations of a member of the Garda Síochána of the rank to which he or she was appointed. He or she will be subject to the Garda disciplinary committee system.
It should be pointed out that the following provisions under subsection (4) do not apply to a person who is a member of the Garda Síochána: Sections 10 and 11 of the 1924 Act, various portions of the Police Forces Amalgamation Act 1925 and regulations thereunder, with the exceptions specified, and the Garda Síochána (Compensation) Acts 1941 and 1945.
It is envisaged that somebody who is a member of the PSNI will be eligible for appointment to a rank in the Garda Síochána and once such an appointment takes place, he or she will have the powers, duties and rights of a member of the Garda. The formulation for which the Deputy is arguing is not really necessary and would interfere with the present wording of section 3, so I would prefer to leave it as it is.
The amendment was intended to be helpful.
I appreciate that.
The intent would be clearer if the amendment were made, but I appreciate that the Minister cannot accept it for the reasons outlined.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I move amendment No. 4:
In page 4, line 43, to delete "The" and substitute "Save to the extent (if any) as may be prescribed, the".
The Minister stated in his last reply that certain parts of this legislation, such as the compensation scheme, apply to the Garda Síochána but not to PSNI members. The reason for this amendment is that if a scheme were negotiated by the Garda in the future, the Minister would have the flexibility to apply new regulations where necessary. This would come in useful for disciplinary matters in particular. The current wording does not allow the Minister the flexibility to apply any new regulations.
If the Minister feels in any way that this Bill, the spirit of which I endorse 100%, is improved by this amendment, I will support it, but I am open to argument on its technical aspects.
The relevant paragraph refers to the Police Forces Amalgamation Act 1925 and regulations made thereunder, other than specified regulations. It is my intention in the near future to publish the heads of a police Bill, which will among other things have the effect of repealing the 1925 Act in its entirety. In that context, we will have to deal with this legislation as well as other matters. If there is any problem of the kind so helpfully pointed out by Deputy Moynihan-Cronin, we will be in a position to deal with it under the forthcoming legislation, which should be introduced to the House before Christmas.
If the Minister will give me an assurance that the matter will be dealt with under the new Bill, I will accept his position. I am particularly concerned that we may not be able to deal with certain disciplinary issues if a new regulation were to be introduced.
If I repeal the 1925 Act, I will have to make some provision for this matter.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 5 arises from committee proceedings.
I move amendment No. 5:
In page 5, between lines 29 and 30, to insert the following:
"5.–(1) All appointments under section 2 and secondments under sections 3 and 4 shall be subject to human rights qualifications and screening for misconduct.
(2) No officer shall be deemed eligible for an appointment under section 2 or a secondment under sections 3 or 4 unless that officer has completed approved human rights training within their own force.
(3) Notwithstanding a determination of eligibility under subsection (2), no officer shall be deemed eligible for an appointment under section 2 or a secondment under sections 3 or 4 if she or he is the subject of an investigation or inquiry, whether internal or otherwise”.
This amendment is to deal with a gap we noticed when we first started to discuss this Bill. It is a pity that the Bill is being rushed because we should be able to address this matter more fully. The initial amendments we tabled would have been appropriate even at this stage. We are dealing here with human rights and are not asking for anything which would not normally be expected or which is contrary to the desire for good policing. It applies not only to the PSNI but also to the Garda.
I welcomed the Minister's answer to a question in my name a few months ago on human rights training in the Garda Síochána. He stated that the training would not only be given to new recruits but that it was intended to extend training to existing members. The problem is that the same is not happening, nor is it, to my knowledge, due to happen, in the PSNI. Any student of recent Irish history or politics will be aware of the many complaints against the RUC and its latest configuration, the PSNI. There have been many violations of human rights in recent times, but those who have been guilty of human rights abuses, which are catalogued and have been investigated three times by Sir John Stevens, still have the right to remain within the PSNI. If this Bill is passed, there is nothing to prevent these people becoming gardaí for the period of their secondment.
I am not the only person who believes this matter should be dealt with. Anybody who took note of the most recent Stevens report, which comprised only 19 pages of a huge document, will know that Sir John Stevens himself comes to the conclusion that there was collusion, a wilful failure to keep records and an absence of accountability, and that members of the police force withheld intelligence and evidence and ran agents who were involved in murder and mayhem. No member of the RUC, and the RUC Special Branch in particular, has ever been charged, for example, with any offence regarding the attacks on 80 people initiated by an RUC agent, Brian Nelson, which led to 29 deaths.
If this Bill is enacted, those members of the police force who are guilty of orchestrating killings and other instances of collusion within the Six Counties could end up serving in this jurisdiction. This is not acceptable to me or to the ordinary citizens of this State. That is why I have tabled an amendment seeking that, at the very minimum, human rights investigations and screening for misconduct are carried out in relation to PSNI officers or constables who are to serve here and also in regard to members of the Garda who are to serve in the Six Counties. It is not just members of the PSNI who have been guilty of human rights abuses; members of the Garda are and have been under investigation for very similar activities.
The Stevens report was not the only one to outline the failings of the police system. One of my earlier amendments provided that the coming into force of the Bill would be contingent on a ruling from the oversight commissioner on the Patten recommendations, but this amendment was ruled out of order. The latest report of the oversight commissioner states that human rights training for members of the PSNI is one of the crucial areas of the Patten recommendations. He identified this as an area of concern where changes are "well within the control of one or more of the policing institutions, but which have yet to show sufficient progress." In previous reports the oversight commissioner stated that human rights training for serving officers and civilian employees has seen limited progress and there is a need for a clear implementation programme which would include financial implications and time schedules. If the amendment is accepted it might force the PSNI to fast-forward the implementation plan and training might take place. This might force out officers who have been guilty of colluding with loyalist death squads.
The Patten report recommended that a new oath should be taken by all police officers expressing an explicit commitment to upholding human rights. The Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 obliges the chief constable to bring the new oath to the attention of serving officers and to ensure they understand it, and understand the need to carry out their duty in accordance with it. However, the oversight commissioner reports that progress in relation to serving officers – former RUC officers – is lacking.
This Bill is an act of completion under the Good Friday Agreement. However, the other aspects to which I referred are also acts of completion. At the very minimum we should expect human rights equalisation. It is a pity we have not had sight of the Garda inspectorate Bill which would indicate whether the gardaí would come under scrutiny such as is undertaken by the police ombudsman in the Six Counties or the oversight commissioner in relation to the PSNI.
I support Deputy Ó Snodaigh's amendment. Given the new beginning in policing, it is necessary for members of the police to have human rights qualifications. This is more important given that many members of the PNSI – former members of the RUC – have been guilty of collusion with Unionist death squads in murdering Nationalists, Catholics, human rights lawyers and a Sinn Féin councillor. In order to ensure a new beginning, it is very important that police officers are trained in human rights in relation to screening and so on.
The Stevens inquiry report was outlined by Deputy Ó Snodaigh. We have seen just 19 pages of the 1,000 page document. At the time we stated that the Government should have full access to the contents of the report. The report makes known to the public what was going on for a considerable time, and condoned by the State. If there is to be a new beginning, which I and every member of Sinn Féin wish to see, we need a policing service which will have such training and will have no problem signing up to the human rights code. Officers should complete human rights training within their own force, which is a positive thing. It should not apply to just the policing service here but globally. It is something towards which we should all strive. Since we are trying to bring about a new beginning, the amendment strengthens the Bill. I will await what the Minister has to say in this regard.
Some officers who are deemed eligible may be subject to an investigation or inquiry, internal or otherwise. This aspect must be factored into the legislation, which is what the amendment proposes.
I ask that the issue be taken on board and that the amendments be agreed to. It would be a statement of trust for our communities, particularly the Nationalist community in the Six Counties who have had to live the nightmare of having a corrupt, partisan and sectarian police force. Anyone who is prepared to undertake human rights training, and sign up to this code, will benefit from it. It could have the desired effect within communities where the policing service operates.
We have seen on our television screens in this State some terrible abuses by gardaí. This also highlights the need for this type of training and for people to be compelled to observe a human rights code. I ask that the amendments be supported.
I support Deputy Ó Snodaigh's amendment. In doing so I say that we need an all-Ireland police service. The amendment, if accepted, would offer some kind of interim measure in terms of a cross-Border police service. Is this it, without even some level of rudimentary screening? As it is clear at this point that we are not getting Patten, what are we getting? Will the legislation afford any level of protection to communities, North and South? If so, this is the opportunity to do this. We need to have watchdogs in place. The amendment offers us a very practical and common sense watchdog which should not be offensive or an insult to anyone. Therefore, I ask the Minister to consider it carefully. People argue that we are starting from scratch with this process. If we are starting from scratch, now is the time to include the screening process and watchdogs and to try to get the process right.
When considering the RUC, one is often told one will get a few bad apples in any barrel. Unfortunately, my view, which is shared by many people throughout the island, particularly in the north east of the country, is that it is not just a case of a few bad apples, it is more a case of a foul orchard. To impose that level of mistrust, so to speak, on the people of this State, or vice versa, would be a major mistake on the part of the Government. This is a common sense, practical amendment which should be included.
I will not deal with the Stevens report as it has already been mentioned. Suffice to say that if evidence were needed, surely it is evidence enough that a British policeman could not publish his report, except for a very small synopsis of the least offensive part of the entire report. I wonder what the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform thinks of that report, particularly the fact that officers under investigation in the report will be spread out not just across the Six Counties but the entire island. Is that a practical, common sense road to go down? I suggest it is not.
In regard to the gardaí, we all know they have neither wings, harps nor halos. The people of Fermanagh and Tyrone will not welcome sharp-shooters from places like Abbeylara policing their community. In this amendment we are not just looking at the issue one way. It deals with the Garda as well as the RUC. As Deputy Ó Snodaigh stated, I accept the prospect of the commencement of human rights training for gardaí. It is unfortunate that is not in place yet. However, at least this amendment would ensure that would be the case. Even if the RUC was not ready to comply with it before its members are seconded here, accepting this amendment would ensure that the gardaí who may choose to go and serve in the North, could at least be able to imbue their new found colleagues with some semblance of human rights training.
No one needs a police service more than the Nationalist, republican and Unionist working class communities in the North. We are not aiming to slow that process but to speed it up. To deliver on such a proper policing service requires, at a minimum, this amendment to the Bill. I believe that the Minister knows that all of us on the Sinn Féin benches would be very happy to not only support this Bill, but also to sponsor it at a future date when the time is right and when proper legislation has been enacted to deliver what would be a real police service. Unfortunately, as the Minister knows, that opportunity is not available to us at this time. Acceptance of this amendment would be a good indication that at least we could trust the Minister on some issues, if not in going to the shop for milk at least when dealing with the RUC. I ask Members to support this very reasonable, logical and common sense amendment.
It is important for us to lay down the guidelines for the future and for the new Ireland now. We are talking about a framework for the future. I will be the first to accept that very nasty things happened in the past 30 years, particularly in Northern Ireland, but also in other parts of the island. I will not have a post mortem on that or on those responsible.
Yesterday morning, I met the members of the Northern Ireland Policing Board. That body exists to hold the new PSNI responsible through the Chief Constable. Already its performance has clearly been impressive. It is a question of whether, not just as part of an act of completion or in the implementation of our responsibilities under the Good Friday Agreement, we are prepared to trust and have confidence in the future. Any question of a narrow or carping approach in relation to the PSNI sends all the wrong signals. From my discussions with the members of the board and from everything I saw in the police college in Belfast I was convinced that enormous progress has been made. The policing board is doing a great job. That was also clear from my discussions with Nuala O'Loan, the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, whom I met on Sunday night.
We are into a new era and our approach should be to be part of that and support it fully. From that point of view, it is incumbent on all of us who have a genuine interest in the new Ireland and the future development of this island to put our support behind the PSNI. That involves accepting that it be in this Bill on an equal status with the Garda Síochána. If we want to talk about separate developments in the Garda Síochána, such as an ombudsman, we will do so another time. We cannot suggest in a snide way that because of problems in the past we must put restrictions on the future of the PSNI. We should go out and support it.
We should not support it in the football match tonight in Kilmacud, but should support the Oireachtas in that game. We should be there wholeheartedly welcoming them to Dublin as part of Irish society as they come to play a civilised game in the capital city of this country.
We are talking about the spirit, which should move us all in relation to the future of Northern Ireland, and part of that spirit is acceptance of the PSNI and the policing board, that we are in a new era and that we should fully support and endorse what is happening in that new era.
I do not propose to accept this amendment. I understand that the regulations made under section 7(2) can specify any experience or qualification that may be necessary or desirable for appointment to any ranks. If human rights were not the subject of adequate training in any police force at any time in the future, that could be prescribed.
I believe all PSNI officers have received training in the application of the Human Rights Act 1998. More recently all PSNI officers have been trained in the code of ethics, which has been drafted to reflect the European Convention on Human Rights, the relevant United Nations standards and best practice in ethical policing in the United Kingdom and other countries. All Police Service of Northern Ireland officers are required by law to carry out their duties in accordance with the code of ethics published by the Policing Board of Northern Ireland. Training in human rights is fully integrated in all police recruit training.
The same applies to this State now. Human rights training forms part of the Garda Síochána basic education. The Garda College currently provides a number of training courses for members in the area of human rights. For example, human rights and diversity training is provided for trainee gardaí and a two-day development course on human rights, anti-racism and ethics is provided for inspectors and sergeants. That course is designed to provide a basic introduction to international human rights standards. To further support and enhance human rights training, a generic human rights training course for Garda teachers and trainers has been developed and is being delivered between March and September this year to 132 teachers and trainers. The aim of that course is to facilitate the integration of human rights concerns, norms, principles and ethics into all relevant aspects of training courses. It will be delivered by internal and external experts.
With regard to the general question of appointments, secondment or lateral entry to either police service, the selection criteria, experience and eligibility for appointment will be determined in the first incidence by the commissioner and the chief constable. Nobody can serve here as of right. No member of the Garda Síochána can declare an intention to serve in Northern Ireland as of right. It is for the chief constable and the commissioner to make an appointment in either case. Therefore, there is no reason to believe that the arrangements provided for in this Bill would in any way endanger anybody's human rights. On the contrary, they will have the laudable effect of creating confidence right across this island that the Patten report is being implemented step by step.
This is one of our obligations under the Good Friday Agreement. This legislation is urgently needed. I have already said that the police joint investigations legislation is coming through this House. I look forward to the day when under European Union law it will be possible for police services in both parts of this island to form joint investigation teams as well as the secondment with which we are dealing here. Co-operation between the police services north and south of the Border is at an all-time high and as a result there has been tremendous progress in addressing issues of mutual concern, including ongoing terrorism and organised and other serious crime on this island.
It is by the process envisaged in the Patten report that confidence in the policing service in both parts of this island will be built up and strengthened as time goes by. To people who sometimes talk about the Patten report and its implementation, I say that a cornerstone of that report was that the RUC should not be disbanded, but that it should be transformed into the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Those people who constantly ignore that aspect of the Patten report should remember that one of the cornerstones of the Patten recommendations is that there should be no disbandment. That point is always forgotten when convenient, but it is there.
It is a process of transformation. The police forces on both sides of the Border are not perfect. The only basis on which they will go from strength to strength in future is by developing the foundations now in place. The point was made earlier that we need an all-Ireland police force and that this is a transitional step. In some ideology that may be so, but what we have signed up to in the Good Friday Agreement, and what we expect of others, is that the steps I am currently putting before the House will be put in place and that we will build on the building blocks of the PSNI and the Garda Síochána and make them fully inter-operable.
I have attended a number of conferences and events which did not simply involve playing football or engaging in ice-breaking gestures. The intensity of the relationship between the two police forces is deepening all the time. Conferences such as the one held recently in County Cavan are of huge importance. Day-to-day co-operation between the two police forces, such as has been evident in recent days, preventing mass murder being committed by terrorist bombs in the Derry and Louth areas, is of huge importance.
Will the Minister take an interjection?
No. The Deputy will have the last word. We believe that the Police Service of Northern Ireland is developing strongly and making genuine efforts to be an impartial police force for the whole community. We believe that its new recruitment policies are a step forward. The PSNI deserves the support of all sections of the community on this island, North and South.
Hear, hear.
Young people of Nationalist and republican backgrounds should be encouraged to join the PSNI in Northern Ireland and to take their part in the building of genuine policing in their communities. Rather than prevaricate, withhold support or stand on the sidelines, the time has come for people to tog out for the Good Friday Agreement in its entirety.
There have of course been setbacks. The failure to have elections for the Northern Ireland Assembly is a grave disappointment and one which caused grave misgivings for the Government and most, if not all, Members of this House. The Government elected by this House is nevertheless determined to proceed with all aspects of the Good Friday Agreement as best we can. By going ahead with this measure and with the police joint investigations team, and all the other practical steps of co-operation, we are showing that nobody, in a paramilitary group or anywhere else in constitutional politics, has a veto over the determined statement of the Irish people. This asserts that the Agreement made on Good Friday, put in place by the Irish people and approved by them in two referenda, North and South, is the only basis of which further progress will be made on this island. It will be implemented in full.
I am not in the business of holding back or moving backwards, or engaging in tit-for-tat withdrawal of our full and wholehearted commitment to the Good Friday Agreement. We are delivering on our side of the deal. I urge everyone in this House to abandon the tit-for-tat approach whereby someone refuses to do one thing if somebody else does not do another. I urge all in this House to assert that we will deliver our side of the bargain because in terms of moral force and political leverage, to go ahead with our side of the bargain in an unreserved manner is the best way to deal with intransigence. To adopt the proposal suggested by the Sinn Féin members in this House would be to play straight into the hands of people who want to derail the Good Friday Agreement.
Acting Chairman
I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day: "That Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed."
Question put.
Deputies
Vótáil.
Will the Deputies claiming a division please rise?
Deputies Ó Caoláin, Ó Snodaigh, Crowe, Morgan, Ferris, Finian McGrath and Joe Higgins rose.
As fewer than ten Members have risen, I declare the question carried. The names of the Deputies who claimed the division will be recorded in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Dáil.
Question declared carried.