Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 May 2004

Vol. 586 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. a4, Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) (Amendment) Bill 2004 — Order for Second Stage and Second and Subsequent Stages; No. 19, International Development Association (Amendment) Bill 2003 — Second Stage (Resumed); Child Trafficking and Pornography (Amendment) Bill 2004 [Seanad] — Second and Subsequent Stages, to be circulated on a Supplementary Order Paper, to be taken at 1.30 p.m., and the order shall resume thereafter.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. a4. The proceedings on Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes. The opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case. The speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case. Members may share time, and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes.

The proceedings on Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 30 minutes or at 1.30 p.m., whichever is the earlier, by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance. In the event of the Child Trafficking and Pornography (Amendment) Bill 2004 being passed by the Seanad and transmitted to the Dáil for agreement, it shall be taken at 1.30 p.m., and the following arrangements shall apply. The proceedings on Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes. The opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case. The speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case. Members may share time, and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes.

The proceedings on Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 30 minutes or at 3.30 p.m., whichever is the earlier, by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. a4 agreed?

Mr. R. Bruton

I know the Tánaiste and the Government are anxious to act expeditiously on this matter, and Fine Gael does not wish to obstruct them. However, it seems the Government is moving very rapidly. We were informed a few days ago that there would be a motion and no legislation. Now we see that two Bills must be passed before a process can be put in place.

I would like to secure assurances from the Tánaiste that she is satisfied that what is being put in place is robust and that we will not find ourselves and the Houses of the Oireachtas in court needlessly trying to defend this process. I would like assurances that, despite the speed with which the Government is clearly acting, we are getting it right, and that the Oireachtas is not being brought into a process that will create difficulties which might have been anticipated had more time been taken.

Mr. Quinn

The Labour Party shares some of the concerns expressed by Deputy Bruton. Perhaps the Tánaiste and the Minister of State might acknowledge the fact that, had it not been for the Labour Party's private consultations with the Government, the legislation, if passed in its original draft form, would have effectively been null and void for the purposes for which it has hastily been brought before this House. That simply proves the point that we have made repeatedly that rushed legislation is invariably bad legislation. Nothing could be more rushed than what we are doing today. Owing to the nature of the problem with which this legislation has been drafted to deal, we will, very reluctantly, consent to it, but only on a reasonable condition to which I now ask the Tánaiste to accede on behalf of the Government.

I draw attention to No. 92 on the legislative timetable, the judicial conduct and ethics Bill, which is due for publication later this year. It should be properly scrutinised by all Members of this House, including Government backbenchers, many of whom have very good legal expertise. I include Deputy Cassidy among their number, at least on the issue of copyright. The legislation should be dealt with by a committee of the House in a proper manner. That legislation which would deal with the matters to be addressed outside this House would, in effect, render redundant the legislation we are now going to put through in a belt and braces manner. We would have a safer and more secure Act.

We are dealing with a sensitive matter, namely, the relationship between the Houses of the Oireachtas and the Judiciary and the independence of that institution from this one. Therefore, we need to get it right. The big fear is we think we have got this one right, but we are not 100% sure. The second Bill, in our analysis, is necessarily belt and braces but no more than that. I am sorry for going on and I thank the Ceann Comhairle for his indulgence. I am not——

Mr. Ring

It is nice to make a comeback.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

That sounds ominous.

Mr. Quinn

No, there is no vacancy and there is no candidate.

Mr. P. McGrath

Arise from the ashes.

Mr. Quinn

I invite the Tánaiste to give such an undertaking. She is not in a position to do it now, but perhaps she could do so some time during the course of today.

Mr. Sargent

The Green Party, Comhaontas Glas, appreciates the sensitivity and the unprecedented nature of the task before the House. However, it is a matter of some regret that from the Technical Group's viewpoint, participation in the process is restricted to one Deputy, although the task is unenviable and hardly one where a large queue of people will seek to embroil themselves because of the complexity of the situation. There are two parties, as recognised under Standing Orders, with the Socialist Party and other Independents as well who must agree on just one spokesperson. I want to note that as a matter of regret, although we appreciate the issue has to be dealt with in as unified a way as possible from the House's point of view, having regard to the need to be objective and thorough. We must avoid getting embroiled in legal problems later which we have been warned about and we need reassurance on this issue.

The issue of judicial behaviour is being discussed. It is important that we do not revisit this situation unwittingly by overlooking the important issue of judicial appointments. It is a matter that needs to be included in some way within the terms of reference, although not perhaps during the strict task ahead of us. It must be taken into account, however, because we do not want to be coming back to this situation again.

The Tánaiste

I thank the Opposition parties for their co-operation and support as regards these matters. I accept what they have said, namely, that because of the sensitivity and the difficulty surrounding Judge Curtin, they were prepared to agree to the timeframe imposed by the Government and that is greatly appreciated. Obviously, these are uncharted waters. We have never gone down this road before. One can never be 100% certain when doing something for the first time and clearly all legislation is open to legal challenge.

Mr. J. Higgins

That is wrong. The Government knew it could come at any time.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should allow the Tánaiste to speak without interruption.

Mr. J. Higgins

The Government should not have waited. It did nothing. Now we are back——

An Ceann Comhairle

I would ask the Deputy to allow the Tánaiste to speak without interruption.

Mr. J. Higgins

The Sheedy affair was already there as a precedent.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order and he knows it.

Mr. J. Higgins

It is ridiculous that Standing Orders cannot facilitate me like other Deputies.

The Tánaiste

The Attorney General and his office have spent a considerable amount of time over the past few weeks looking at all of the legal issues surrounding this whole matter. We are satisfied the legislation being put forward is sound from that perspective. As regards Deputy Quinn's point, the Government's intention is to bring in this legislation later this year. I will refer to him later as regards the timeframe for that, but it is the intention to have that legislation produced later this year.

On Deputy Sargent's point, the motion for the committee will be at a later stage, next week.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. a4 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with all Stages of the Child Trafficking and Pornography (Amendment) Bill 2004 agreed, in the event of the Bill being passed by the Seanad?

Mr. R. Bruton

I am glad to hear the Attorney General is satisfied that this is robust. I share the Tánaiste's concern that we are entering into uncharted waters. I also share the sentiment expressed by Deputy Joe Higgins to the effect that we would not be in this situation if the Government had anticipated these sorts of problems, as it had outlined in its programme on legislation. However, I presume the issues such as admissibility of evidence relating to this pornography issue will be properly thought through. Considerable concern has been expressed over the flawed warrants in this case. This is the evidence that will now be reviewed by the committee. I presume that has also been seriously addressed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with the conclusion of the Second Stage agreed? Agreed.

Mr. R. Bruton

I seek the Chair's advice with regard to a matter. Article 28.4.1° of the Constitution states that the Government is responsible to the Dáil. However, yesterday the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service voted down by a Government majority the right of the Oireachtas to hold hearings on and scrutinise the Government's programme on decentralisation. This is a programme on which there has been no debate in the Dáil, no vote in the Dáil, no Government memorandum presented, no strategic policy paper presented, and no assessment on how it fits into the spatial strategy. Some 10,000 public servants are being asked to move out of Dublin without having any view of the options they will have for the future. A question arises as to what rights the Oireachtas has to scrutinise proposals, albeit ones on which the Government has made a decision. We nonetheless have the right to scrutinise that decision, to ensure the best thinking has gone into it. If there are lessons and modifications that need to be made, the Oireachtas should have the opportunity to suggest them and have the case heard.

I seek the Chair's guidance as to how the rights of Members may be exercised as regards this important strategic decision for the future of the public service. The location of the public service should not be decided by the Government on a political whim for electoral reasons. I seek the Chair's guidance on how we are going to do this, because we have been obstructed in the one way——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter for the committee, as the Deputy knows.

Mr. R. Bruton

It is not a matter for the committee, where there is a majority voting——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter for the committee. On matters of accountability generally where the Chair might have responsibility, it would have to be given notice of such matters. The House will hear Deputies Quinn and Sargent, briefly, but this is a matter for the committee.

Mr. Quinn

On the same topic, this matter was discussed yesterday evening at the committee to which Deputy Bruton has referred. The Chairman of that committee, Deputy Fleming, agreed to the proposal that such a session would take place allowing a structured debate in a manner acceptable to all. However, he then got instructions from somewhere else in this House——

Mr. Ring

As usual.

Mr. Quinn

——to reverse that decision. Among the Chair's many duties is one to protect the interests of all Members of this House. Can the Chair indicate if such a reversal of a procedure is in accordance with the rules of the House? I do not think it is.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has already pointed out that it would need to have notice. The Chair cannot adjudicate ad hoc on the floor of the House and would not even attempt to do so.

Mr. Quinn

The Chair will be given written notice.

Mr. Sargent

I sought to have this matter debated by way of Standing Order 31. Will the Chair now give some consideration to this issue? I make the point, not just because it may be related to promised legislation but because the end of May was given as the date for civil servants to hear about the arrangements. There is a widespread view, which is understandable, that it is not now going to be announced until after the local and European elections. I would ask that this be clarified because if the end of May was given as the date by which announcements would be made, the Oireachtas needs to debate it today. This is the last sitting day before the elections. Will the Tánaiste say whether there has been a shifting of sands and if the date has been put back until after the local and European elections, for obvious electoral reasons?

The Tánaiste

The Fine Gael Party put down a motion on this matter a year ago in the Dáil, calling for 10,000 civil servants to be relocated from Dublin. In the course of that debate Deputy Kenny said he felt the number could be 18,000 who wanted to move out of Dublin. I do not know why Fine Gael is suddenly taking a different view of this.

Mr. R. Bruton

On a point of order, this is a question of whether the Oireachtas has an entitlement to scrutinise Government decisions that could have an enormous impact on the delivery of public services.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made that point. We are not having a debate on it.

Mr. R. Bruton

This political slur that the Tánaiste has learnt from her Fianna Fáil colleagues does her no justice.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

This is a typical diversionary tactic.

Mr. Cassidy

The Deputy was not even there.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair cannot involve himself in the issue the Deputy raised first unless there is a report to the House from the committee. On another issue, Deputy Ring is to speak.

Mr. Sargent

The Tánaiste has not finished responding.

Mr. Ring

Why was it necessary for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government two days before the closing date for nominations for the local authority elections——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ring should know that does not arise. It is not Question Time it is the Order of Business.

Mr. Ring

This is a question on second rate legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must tell us the legislation on which he wants to ask a question.

Mr. Ring

It is on the Local Government Act.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste to respond on the Local Government Act.

Mr. Ring

The Ceann Comhairle should give me an opportunity to ask the question. When I ask it he can rule me in or out but he should at least let me ask.

An Ceann Comhairle

It should be an appropriate question.

Mr. Ring

Why, two days before the nomination——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is out of order. Two days has nothing to do with legislation coming before the House.

Mr. Ring

The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government signed an order to allow family members of Oireachtas Members who were members of local authorities to stand for the local election. He signed it two days before the nominations closed. The Tánaiste stood over that and allowed it to happen. This is hypocrisy at its worst. What will the Tánaiste do about it? Will the Minister come in and explain why he signed that order two days before the closing date for the nominations? It is an abuse of ministerial office. Will the Tánaiste respond?

Mr. Roche

Look at all the Fine Gael family members in public office.

Mary Coughlan

There is nothing wrong with that.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy is talking about regulations that the Minister signed as a result of the passing of the recent Bill in this House which provides for——

Mr. Ring

It is a measure to allow family members of Fianna Fáil to stand for the local authorities.

Mary Coughlan

What is Deputy Ring going on about?

Mr. Ring

Why did they not do it when they were already members of local authorities? It is outrageous. It is Fianna Fáil abuse at its worst and the Tánaiste allowed it to happen.

Mr. Roche

That is rubbish as always. They are citizens. Fine Gael's fascism is coming to the fore.

Mr. Ring

Deputy Roche put his wife on to a council.

Mr. Roche

Yes, and she was the best councillor Wicklow ever saw.

Mr. Ring

When the Deputy was on the backbenches he said he disagreed with the legislation. He is a hypocrite.

Mary Coughlan

It is only democracy.

Mr. Roche

The Fine Gael fascism is coming out.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair must take more appropriate action if Deputies Coughlan, Roche and Ring continue to interrupt.

Mr. Ring

It is an abuse of ministerial office.

The Tánaiste

The regulations allow certain categories of workers in local authorities to stand for local elections.

Mr. P. McGrath

It allows the family members stand for local authorities illegally.

Mr. Roche

Deputy Ring's wife could stand.

Ms Burton

We have been talking about political sewage but is the Tánaiste aware of the real sewage crisis in James Connolly Memorial Hospital in Dublin?

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question appropriate to the Order of Business?

Ms Burton

This Government has spent €105 million on a hospital with sewage coming up through the floorboards. Where is the accountability from the Tánaiste and the Progressive Democrats for a hospital that is closed?

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest the Deputy submit a question to the appropriate Minister.

Ms Burton

They will not allow us to discuss decentralisation, or sewage in a hospital.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume her seat.

Mr. Costello

In view of the legislation programme for summer 2004, the pink pages, 19 Bills were promised before the summer recess. It seems very few if any of those Bills have been published. Can we get a list of the Bills that are published and how many more will come before the summer recess?

The Tánaiste

Yes. We can provide a list and many of the Bills promised will be published before the recess.

Mr. Costello

This is promised legislation. We will sit for only another week before going into a recess and then for a couple more weeks after that.

The Tánaiste

In my Department there are two Bills — the health and safety at work Bill which has been circulated to the Departments, and a work permit Bill. In the six weeks of sittings we have left there will be many more.

Mr. Boyle

Does the promised announcement by the end of May on decentralisation and relocation of civil servants require a specific Government regulation? Will such a regulation be laid before the House and will it be made, as promised, before the end of May? I take it that it will not happen before the end of May.

Mr. R. Bruton

Does the Government have plans to introduce any legislation to deal with an issue that arose yesterday in the courts in Northern Ireland, namely, the proscription of the IRA as an illegal organisation. Our law does not provide for that and it remains to be tested in the Supreme Court whether it is necessary to take a case to court. Is the Government considering legislation in the light of that ruling?

The Tánaiste

If there was a vacuum in the legislation we would amend the law but I am not in a position to say whether that is planned at the moment. I doubt the Minister has considered that.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

In the announcement of the legislative programme on 26 April the Government said it remained committed to bringing an amended disability Bill through the Oireachtas at the earliest possible date. We have not seen that Bill so it has not fulfilled that promise. Will the Tánaiste give a commitment even at this late stage to having the Bill published before the conclusion of Report Stage of the Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill? There is an opportunity this week and next, before the local elections, to enable people to see what exactly is included in the disability Bill and whether it is rights based.

The Tánaiste

I am not in a position to give that commitment.

Mr. M. Higgins

Now that the Aer Rianta distraction Bill has been postponed until after the local elections on what other legislation has a similar logic been brought to bear and been deferred until after the election date?

Ms Burton

Hanly.

Mr. Quinn

The disability legislation, Hanly one, Hanly two, Hanly three.

Mr. O’Dowd

We had a debate here some months ago in Private Member's time on the Criminal Assets Bureau and its money when the Government undertook to review the situation regarding the funding which was in the bureau's possession. It said it would be ring-fenced for community purposes particularly to fight the drug problem in Dublin and other urban areas. What proposals does the Government have now to legislate for that to ring-fence the money subsequent to that debate?

The Tánaiste

I am not aware of any legislative commitment in that area but I can check the matter for the Deputy.

Mr. J. Higgins

Due to the unpredictability of Government policy, Pier D at Dublin Airport is not going ahead so there is a danger that €7 million——

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question on legislation?

Mr. J. Higgins

Yes, this is on legislation and it is very appropriate too. The €7 million spent at Dublin Airport is to follow the €52 million spent on electronic voting and the tens of millions at Abbottstown.

An Ceann Comhairle

To what legislation is the Deputy referring?

Mr. J. Higgins

I am referring to the legislation unfortunately promised in regard to Aer Rianta. Will the Tánaiste clarify once again——

An Ceann Comhairle

That has been dealt with already this morning.

Mr. J. Higgins

Does the Government intend to bring this in before the summer recess? Perhaps it will rethink and abandon this ill thought-out and right wing proposal.

The Tánaiste

The sensible policy of the Government to give autonomy to Shannon and Cork Airports will be passed before the summer recess.

Mr. Durkan

Speaking of millions, a Minister spent €52 million, as my colleague mentioned——

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy's question on legislation? We cannot spend the whole morning on this.

Mr. Durkan

I want to give the Minister an opportunity to atone for his crimes. When will the crimes Bill come to the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

We are moving on to the next business. Message from select committee——

Mr. Durkan

My question is on proposed legislation. When will the crimes Bill come to the House? The Ceann Comhairle interrupted me.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy. The Chair is obliged to move on to the next business at some stage.

Mr. Durkan

I am entitled to ask when the crimes Bill will come to the House.

The Tánaiste

It is not possible to say at this stage.

Mr. Durkan

It is not possible to say, but it was promised. It is not possible to say where the money has gone either.