Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 Mar 2005

Vol. 599 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take No. 17, Finance Bill 2005 — Report Stage, resumed, and Final Stage; and No. 17a— statements on the Report on Certain Issues of Management and Administration in the Department of Health and Children associated with the practice of charges for persons in long-stay care in health board institutions and related matters.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. today and business shall be interrupted on the conclusion of oral questions to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, which shall be taken for 75 minutes immediately on the conclusion of No. 17a; (2) the proceedings on the resumed Report Stage and Final Stage of No. 17 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in respect of amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance; (3) No. 17a shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, adjourn after two hours and 15 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) Members shall be called upon in the following sequence and the statements in each case shall not exceed the times indicated: Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children — 15 minutes; Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment — 15 minutes; Fine Gael — 15 minutes; Labour — 15 minutes; and Technical Group — 15 minutes; (ii) subject to (i), members may share time; and (iii) immediately following the statements, the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children and the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment shall each take questions for a period not exceeding 30 minutes in each case; and (4) the Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 March 2005.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are four proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 17 agreed?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No. Although it is possible that the House will have completed its consideration of the amendments proposed to the Finance Bill by 1.30 p.m., the proposal to impose a guillotine is abhorrent to the Opposition, not only in respect of this Bill but in all instances. The debate on the Bill should be allowed to take its normal course. It is likely that we will have time to conclude our consideration of the amendments and a guillotine will not be needed. Nevertheless, the proposal to impose a guillotine on such an important Bill is wrong in principle and I strongly object to it.

Ms Burton

The Minister has proposed major new amendments to the Finance Bill. The proposed amendments to section 58 will significantly water down the penalties imposed on advisers, bankers and others who are involved in aiding and abetting tax evasion. The imposition of a guillotine on the Report Stage debate will deprive the House of an opportunity to discuss the amendments, which are shameful and disgraceful, especially in light of this country's series of tax evasion scandals, which have cost ordinary and decent taxpayers a great deal of money. The Government's guillotine will, in effect, preclude the possibility of a debate on the new amendments being introduced by the Minister.

Mr. Boyle

The Green Party opposes the proposal to impose a guillotine on the Report Stage debate on the Finance Bill. This is the third year in a row that amendments have been introduced to the Finance Bill on Report Stage without having been discussed on any previous Stage. Many amendments will not be debated because they will not be reached. The Report Stage debate is on amendment No. 13 of 61 amendments. We will not make much progress during the hour or so we will have to debate the remaining amendments. The Green Party opposes the guillotine on those grounds.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 17 be agreed", put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 17a agreed?

Mr. Kenny

Before agreeing to this, I would like to ask the Tánaiste three questions. Given that no Minister of this Government is prepared to accept responsibility for this matter, is it intended to introduce amendments to the Public Service Management Act 1997, particularly to section 3, which sets out the political responsibilities of Ministers? Will the Tánaiste explain to the House how a copy of a file which went missing——

An Ceann Comhairle

That might be more appropriate to the debate taking place at1.30 p.m.

Ms O. Mitchell

No, it is not.

Mr. Kenny

The Travers report, amounting to 160 pages, was produced but the file was not part of it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I accept that but there will be an opportunity for questions this afternoon.

The Tánaiste

I can deal with that.

An Ceann Comhairle

It would be more appropriate to the debate.

Mr. Kenny

It would lead on to many questions.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is unfair to Members who might want to submit questions in the afternoon.

Mr. Kenny

I would like the Tánaiste to respond to the question.

Ms O. Mitchell

There will be another reason not to do it then.

Mr. Kenny

The inaction of the Minister in the knowledge that the payments in question were illegal has cost the taxpayer €500 million.

Is it intended, given what the Tánaiste called systematic maladministration in the Department of Health and Children, that there will be disciplinary proceedings against any members of the public service who were involved in this matter? Alternatively, are we just to have——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point. It would be more appropriate to the debate this afternoon.

Mr. Kenny

——a sideways movement of somebody to a job that was abolished some months ago?

Mr. Rabbitte

It is unthinkable that we should embark upon a very inadequate and abridged debate, extracted under pressure from the Taoiseach and providing for contributions of only 15 minutes, on a matter of this significance. The Tánaiste suggests that we should be further blindfolded by our not having the opportunity to read the contents of the missing file, a copy of which has now been discovered in the Department. Does she intend to have the contents of that file distributed to us?

As with so many other matters in the realm of political accountability, it is unbelievable that such a file would not have been seen by a Minister with any kind of hands-on approach to his job. Mr. Kelly tells us it was observed in the outer office of the Minister. Will the Tánaiste assure the House that we will have an opportunity to read the file concerned between now and the taking of the statements, such as they are, at 1.30 p.m.?

While making this assurance she might also comment on Mr. Travers's comment, in page 54 of the report, that the documents she referred to the Attorney General were essentially the same documents that went missing earlier. This must mean Mr. Travers had seen them. I do not know why they do not form an appendix to the report. In any event, we cannot embark on statements on a matter with such grave ramifications for the taxpayer without our seeing the missing file. I presume the Tánaiste will commit, as I believe the Taoiseach did eventually yesterday, to allowing a proper debate on the ramifications of this matter as soon as this House resumes after its recess, or as early as possible thereafter. Such a debate would address the relationship between Ministers and civil servants, the conduct in respect of this matter, the implications for the taxpayer and the terms of any redress scheme the Tánaiste proposes to introduce. The opportunity we have today very much represents an inadequate and abridged opportunity for statements.

Mr. Gormley

I understand the civil servant who negotiated the residential abuse settlement moved to the Higher Education Authority. Now Mr. Kelly has gone there. It seems to be some sort of purgatory for civil servants.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are discussing the arrangements for the debate.

Mr. McCormack

The authority will soon be full.

Mr. Gormley

Many civil servants feel very aggrieved this morning——

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Gormley

——particularly in the Department of Health and Children.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Mr. Gormley

The question I have is——

An Ceann Comhairle

Is it related to the business before us, which is the proposal for dealing with No. 17a?

Mr. Gormley

It is. On the statements, I believe——

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy satisfied with the arrangements for dealing with No. 17a?

Mr. Gormley

No, I am not because we need clarity on the legislative proposals that will flow from the conclusions of the Travers report. Clearly, the special relationship that has existed until now between civil servants and Ministers has been broken.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the debate which will take place in the afternoon. I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Mr. Gormley

A tradition dating back to the enactment of the Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924 has been broken.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order.

Mr. Gormley

Why do Ministers no longer accept responsibility for their Departments?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Gormley

That needs to be clarified now.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have an opportunity in the debate this afternoon.

Mr. Gormley

It needs to be clarified before we begin the debate.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Tánaiste advise the House on whether she will circulate a detailed summary of the content of the missing file so that we will all be privy to exactly the same information as we commence what I would call a very inadequate opportunity for debate this afternoon? I note the time provision. Given that the Taoiseach only indicated the taking of statements yesterday, I welcome the introduction of a question and answer session involving the Tánaiste and the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin. Nevertheless, the allocation of 30 minutes for questions and answers with each of them on this very complex and important matter is totally inadequate.

Within that timeframe, how many Members of this House will have the opportunity to ask the Minister and former Minister serious, searching questions and listen to, note and carefully monitor their replies? We have witnessed repeated filibustering on the part of the Taoiseach. Will we have succinct and properly measured responses to all the questions posed and, more importantly, will the Tánaiste allow further time for the question and answer section of the opportunity that presents itself this afternoon? This is the most important section of the debate, yet it will constitute only one hour of an opportunity lasting two hours and 15 minutes.

Mr. D. Ahern

I hope Deputy Ó Caoláin's questions will be shorter.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Minister is awake. He is welcome to the House. I believed he was only here in body.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should conclude.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Tánaiste——

Mr. D. Ahern

I hope his questions will be much shorter during the half hour.

Mr. McDowell

They will take a whole half hour.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——allow further time for a proper question and answer session?

Mr. F. McGrath

Eight Deputies have been allowed only five minutes for questions. It is disgraceful.

Mr. D. Ahern

If the Deputy can find one.

The Tánaiste

Contrary to an impression created this morning, no file was found overnight in the Department of Health and Children.

Ms Burton

Was it found earlier? Was it always there?

Mr. Boyle

There is still time.

The Tánaiste

Can I not respond to the issues raised?

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Tánaiste to speak without interruption.

The Tánaiste

As Deputy Rabbitte has acknowledged, Mr. Travers makes the point on page 54 of the report that the letter sent at my request in October was a copy of the letter in the file. I have it here and will circulate it. It is a copy which was held in the line division that prepared the submission for the Attorney General and prepared the letter. Mr. Travers refers to it in his report and he saw it. It was the same correspondence, the exact same copy. However, the file is still missing and I do not know where it is. That is why I established the Travers inquiry. I can certainly make copies available.

Mr. F. McGrath

Send the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, looking for it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Tánaiste to speak without interruption.

The Tánaiste

It is important and I have asked——

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

I have asked the press office in the Department of Health and Children to ask for a correction to a story that was circulated this morning. I do not know the source of the story but it is not accurate.

On the legal implications of the inquiry and whether there will be a need for amending legislation, that matter has not been considered. Legislation may not be required in that there are excellent recommendations on how Departments should operate and how the management team should operate and interface with Ministers. All Department officials and Ministers would do well to read and consider them because they are thoughtful and comprehensive.

On the other issues, we will have a chance in this afternoon's debate both to make statements and deal with any questions that arise.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

What about the time factor?

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 17a be agreed.”

The Dáil divided: Tá, 56; Níl, 11.

Tá

• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, Barry.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Brady, Martin.
• Browne, John.
• Callanan, Joe.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Carey, Pat.
• Carty, John.
• Cassidy, Donie.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cregan, John.
• Cullen, Martin.
• Curran, John.
• Dempsey, Tony.
• Devins, Jimmy.
• Ellis, John.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Fleming, Seán.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McGuinness, John.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Moloney, John.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Nolan, M. J.
• O’Connor, Charlie.
• O’Donnell, Liz.
• O’Donovan, Denis.
• O’Flynn, Noel.
• O’Keeffe, Batt.
• O’Keeffe, Ned.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• O’Malley, Tim.
• Power, Seán.
• Sexton, Mae.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Wilkinson, Ollie.
• Woods, Michael.

Níl

• Boyle, Dan.
• Cowley, Jerry.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Gormley, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Higgins, Joe.
• McGrath, Finian.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• Ryan, Eamon.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Ó Snodaigh and Boyle.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with the adjournment of the Dáil agreed?

Mr. Rabbitte

I oppose this proposal which is unreasonable. We have just agreed that the provision made today to deal with the extraordinary situation that has emerged in terms of long-stay care is entirely inadequate as an abridged form of debate. There is absolutely no good reason why this House should not meet next week to have a proper debate that does justice to the Travers report and seeks to hold the Government, especially the former Minister for Health and Children, to account for the unbelievable position that he knew nothing of what was going on in his Department on this major issue. For that reason, I oppose the proposal to adjourn until 22 March, which is unreasonable in the circumstances.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Gormley

The Green Party opposes this proposal. Most people will get one day off for the bank holiday while we are proposing to get three days off. It is clear that this is the laziest most unproductive Parliament in Europe, thanks to this lazy unproductive Government.

Mr. Fleming

The Deputy should speak for himself.

Mr. Gormley

It is an indulgence that people do not like.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy without interruption, please.

Mr. Gormley

For that reason, we are opposing the proposal.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I was a little taken aback when Deputy Rabbitte said we have just agreed that the time provided is inadequate. Unfortunately, it appears from the record that only 11 of us were of that view. In fact, the Labour Party and Fine Gael abstained from expressing clearly that the time is inadequate.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Easter Rising will be here by the time the Deputy is finished.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin without interruption, please.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

They clearly do not belong to the consensus in the Opposition. Deputy Rabbitte does not like some of the truisms pointed out to him, including why the Taoiseach is not here on Thursday.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise under this proposal dealing with the adjournment of the Dáil.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

In the context of the business in hand and the fact that the Taoiseach will not be here for five weeks, it merits the prospect of the Taoiseach being able to attend again for a further day or days in the coming week in order to discuss this matter. Given that business will adjourn at the conclusion of the two hours and 15 minutes, we need to resume because the time provided is inadequate. The import and seriousness of what is to be addressed will not be satisfied in that time and there is a requirement that the matter, which is ongoing business until it is properly addressed and concluded, is taken up at the earliest opportunity. Regrettably, this can only be achieved in the coming week.

Mr. Kenny

I support Deputy Rabbitte on this matter. The Tánaiste has already said she will not travel to America in order to deal with the ramifications of the Travers report next week. Perhaps the Dáil should consider sitting tomorrow or next week to deal with the matter.

I am amused by Deputy Ó Caoláin who speaks about seeking extra time to deal with the matter. I understand the Sinn Féin Whip, Deputy Ó Snodaigh, did not attend the meeting yesterday. I do not know whether he was taking photographs from the boot of his car or someone else's car, but he was not at the meeting.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Deputy is very funny.

Mr. Kenny

In that regard, I support Deputy Rabbitte's recommendation.

Mr. J. Higgins

Why not have the meeting in Washington next week? At least we might find the Taoiseach there.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste without interruption, please.

The Tánaiste

When I heard Deputy Ó Caoláin criticise the Taoiseach's absence, I was going to make the point Deputy Kenny made that his party did not attend the Whips' meeting yesterday when arrangements were being made to discuss the Travers report. I commend the parties who attended, reached an agreement and honoured that in the House this morning. It is much more sincere than being absent, then calling for a vote and wasting time.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I assure the Tánaiste that the Technical Group was represented.

The Tánaiste

Deputies will be aware that for many years it has been the tradition that many Ministers, Ministers of State and the Taoiseach visit the Irish diaspora, as the former President, Mary Robinson, referred to them, and attend various events where Irish people are proud to celebrate our national holiday. It is true that I am not travelling. I would be gone by now if I were travelling to San Francisco. As there are huge issues for the Department of Health and Children, it is my duty to be in the Department tomorrow, and on Monday and Tuesday of next week to deal with them and work with the management team to deliver change and bring about a new situation in the future. For all these reasons, I do not agree with theDeputies.

The report is before the Joint Committee on Health and Children. I am sure the committee will spend considerable time discussing and considering the Travers report. It is the appropriate forum to deal with the matter. I have no doubt there should be further debates in this House on the implications of the Travers report. It is reasonable and proper that the Dáil should adjourn next week to facilitate Government representatives honouring commitments overseas.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with the adjournment of the Dáil be agreed."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 56; Níl, 35.

Tá

• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, Barry.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Brady, Martin.
• Browne, John.
• Callanan, Joe.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Carey, Pat.
• Carty, John.
• Cassidy, Donie.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cregan, John.
• Cullen, Martin.
• Curran, John.
• Dempsey, Tony.
• Devins, Jimmy.
• Ellis, John.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Fleming, Seán.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McGuinness, John.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Moloney, John.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Nolan, M.J.
• O’Connor, Charlie.
• O’Donnell, Liz.
• O’Donovan, Denis.
• O’Flynn, Noel.
• O’Keeffe, Batt.
• O’Keeffe, Ned.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• O’Malley, Tim.
• Power, Seán.
• Sexton, Mae.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Wilkinson, Ollie.
• Woods, Michael.

Níl

• Allen, Bernard.
• Boyle, Dan.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Burton, Joan.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Costello, Joe.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Gormley, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McCormack, Padraic.
• McGrath, Paul.
• McManus, Liz.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Neville, Dan.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Shea, Brian.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Perry, John.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ring, Michael.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stanton, David.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Upton, Mary.
• Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Kehoe and Broughan.

Question declared carried.

Mr. Kenny

Given that the Finance Bill is going through its concluding stages, will the Tánaiste confirm that a Supplementary Estimate will be introduced later this year to deal with the consequences of the procedure to make payments for the public patients problem and that there will not be any diminution of services as a result?

The Taoiseach stated recently that it might be necessary, arising from this, to set up an all-party committee to look at other Departments and examine if the processes they are following might also require legal implementation in the same way a legal basis is required for charges for persons in public institutions. Will that be the case?

The Tánaiste

A Supplementary Estimate will be necessary later this year; we have already made that clear. I do not know about an all-party committee but the Cabinet sub-committee, made up of the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance, the Attorney General and myself, has reflected on whether there are other areas of Government where regulations may not be on a sound footing. In December, I asked the assistant secretary with responsibility for finance for an audit in my Department and we may need some legal expertise to ensure that what has emerged in this instance could not happen in any other area of public administration.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Tánaiste should remember to bring the file if she is looking for legal advice. Will we have the letter as soon as possible so we can look at it before we start the debate?

Mr. Cowen

Is this the letter that does exist?

Mr. Rabbitte

Yes. It is a mystery that the file does not exist. I agree with the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Cowen

It was the previous letter that did not exist that was rocking the foundations of the State.

Mr. Rabbitte

I wish to raise a delicate matter. I note that the late John Boland prepared proposals to address this issue in 1987. What, then, is the procedure here? Does the Ceann Comhairle have any intention of vacating the Chair so he can address the House on why this was stopped in 1987?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise at this stage. The Deputy may raise the matter during the debate.

Mr. Rabbitte

If John Boland's proposals had been enacted, they would have saved the taxpayer most of the €2 billion bill we now face but they were stopped by the subsequent Minister for Health who was, with respect, the Ceann Comhairle himself.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair cannot be involved in this. The Deputy can raise the matter in the debate.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am merely asking for the Ceann Comhairle's guidance at this stage on procedure. Is there any precedent?

An Ceann Comhairle

If there is a problem, the Deputy can come to the office of the Ceann Comhairle and we can discuss the matter.

Mr. Rabbitte

I do not want to go the Ceann Comhairle's office. I want to know if there is a precedent for the Ceann Comhairle vacating the Chair to address the House on a matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Rabbitte

I will come back to this when the House is preparing for a debate proper on this issue.

Mr. Gormley

The Tánaiste said earlier she was not sure if legislation was required to amend section 3 of the Public Service Management Act 1997. When will she be in a position to let the House know if such legislation is required?

The Tánaiste

I do not believe legislation is required, as I said earlier. That is my view and nobody has drawn to my attention any area where legislation would be required.

Mr. Kenny

Ministerial responsibility——

The Tánaiste

There are two areas of responsibility. Of course Ministers are responsible to this House, as they hold constitutional office. Secretary Generals are accounting officers and they are accountable for public moneys. There are different areas of accountability in this whole matter and they are clear. There is no doubt about that. I am quite certain we will deal with these issues when we return to the debate this afternoon.

Mr. Gormley

Will the Tánaiste seek the advice of the Attorney General? Will somebody write the letter or what will happen?

Dr. Upton

Pharmacists who qualify outside the EU are not eligible to practice in Ireland, arising from current legislation. When will the pharmacy Bill be introduced?

The Tánaiste

Substantial work is under way in that area and I hope to have the heads of the legislation with the Government later this year. I share the Deputy's concern about many Irish graduates who could not get places in pharmacy schools here and had to go abroad. They are not in a position to own their own pharmacy and the position is unsatisfactory.

Mr. Ring

I wish to ask the Tánaiste about the work permits Bill. I ask the Tánaiste and the Ministers who are travelling to America next week to lobby for our Irish illegals who are suffering in America due to the new regulations. I ask the Ministers who will meet congressmen etc. in the US next week, when the parties are taking place, to lobby for our Irish illegals given that they are in the same positions as those with permits here.

The Tánaiste

The work permits Bill will be published shortly and is the responsibility of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The other matter raised by the Deputy has been routinely done over many years in the proper fora. Ministers are not going abroad to party, they are going abroad to work.

Mr. Ring

There will be plenty of parties too.

The Tánaiste

If the Deputy thinks it is a party, he does not know the meaning of the word.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Legislation arising out of the North-South Ministerial Council is designed to give effect to the recommendations of the child protection joint working group. When will the register of persons who are considered unsafe to work with children be published?

The Tánaiste

It is not possible to say at this stage.

Mr. Deenihan

It took one year to build a National Aquatic Centre and, apparently, it will take five months to repair a hole in its roof.

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Deenihan

May I finish please? In the context of the National Aquatic Centre——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, you raised the matter last week.

Mr. Deenihan

——when will the Abbotstown Bill be introduced?

The Tánaiste

It will be introduced this session.

Mr. O’Shea

A fortnight ago I raised with the Tánaiste the matter of the establishment day for the implementation of the adventure activities standards authority. She undertook to get back to me but I have heard nothing since.

The Tánaiste

I apologise, I will have somebody contact the Deputy.

Ms Burton

I have raised with the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach on several occasions the question of the National Aquatic Centre. Would the Tánaiste care to dip her toes into the waters? It has been closed for over two months and divers, swimmers and the other water sports organisations have heard nothing. The shareholders are the Minister for Finance, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism and more than 3,000 members of the club cannot get information.

An Ceann Comhairle

On legislation.

Ms Burton

Given that the Tánaiste is staying home for St. Patrick's day could she try to go for a swim in the National Aquatic Centre? It is closed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, we are moving on.

Ms Burton

That National Aquatic Centre is closed for more than two months and——

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume her seat.

Ms Burton

——will be closed for at least another four months.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Burton, I ask you to resume your seat.

Mr. Deenihan

The Deputy is right. Well done.

Ms Burton

There are courses in deep underwater diving——

Mr. Deenihan

There will be many people taking dives this afternoon.

The Tánaiste

In case there is any misunderstanding I will be going to Ljubliana and Sarajevo next week for two or three days and the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, is going to San Francisco this morning. The only diving I will be doing between now and Easter is diving into the Travers report and all its implications and implementing its excellent recommendations.

Mr. Gormley

Will there be any ducking?

Ms Burton

The National Aquatic Centre is closed.

The Tánaiste

Notwithstanding the Deputy's invitation——

Mr. Cowen

In diving terms there is a high degree——

The Tánaiste

It will be open as soon as possible.

An Ceann Comhairle

In regard to the point raised by Deputy Rabbitte, there is no precedent for a Ceann Comhairle to participate in a debate nor could there be by virtue of the impartiality of his office. The Ceann Comhairle has no deliberative role in the debate in the House and should not be drawn into a matter of controversy.