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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 Feb 2013

Vol. 791 No. 3

Order of Business

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Ruairí Quinn)

It is proposed to take No. 10 - motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Planning and Development (Planning Enforcement) General Policy Directive 2013 (back from committee); and No. 1, Water Services Bill 2013 [Seanad] - Second Stage (resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: the Dáil shall sit later than 5.45 p.m. tonight and shall adjourn on the conclusion of Oral Questions; No. 10 shall be decided without debate; Leaders' Questions shall take place today at 4.30 p.m. followed by the Topical Issue debate and Oral Questions; and in relation to the Energy Security and Climate Change Bill 2012, the Second Stage of which shall be considered tomorrow, the following arrangements shall apply: the opening speech of Deputy Catherine Murphy and of the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and of a Minister or Minister of State, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share their time, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed 15 minutes and such Members may share their time; a Minister or Minister of State, who may speak twice, shall be called upon not later than 1 p.m. to make a speech which shall not exceed 15 minutes; and Deputy Catherine Murphy shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 15 minutes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are four proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 5.40 p.m. tonight agreed to?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not agreed.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

We were here until 3 a.m. last night.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I wish to put on record our deep dissatisfaction at the way Parliament is being treated by the Government. The Government parties have an overwhelming majority but the degree to which they are using it to undermine the status of Parliament is truly shocking. What happened last evening was disgraceful by any standards.

Deputy Finian McGrath

It was outrageous.

Deputy Ann Phelan

Saint Martin.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Did it change Deputy Martin's day in the south?

Deputy Micheál Martin

I refer in particular to the lack of briefing and consultation with spokespeople on the Opposition side. Prior to the previous general election, we all signed on to fundamental reform of the political system and of the relationship between the Executive and the Parliament.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Why did Deputy Martin not do it before then?

Deputy Derek Nolan

He was building golf courses.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is becoming more regressive and it is getting worse. Last evening, for example-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

I would appreciate it-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order please.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

This is more of it; the attempt to heckle and shout down people who want legitimately to articulate a view.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Deputy Martin is fairly good at it himself.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There is a constant refrain from the Government benches.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Martin has the floor.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Opposition spokespeople were not even afforded the courtesy of ministerial briefings last evening prior to major legislation being rammed through the House in a very short space of time because of an emergency situation that had emerged.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

It was the same with the bank guarantee.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There were briefings from officials very late into the night, almost in parallel with the taking of the Bill. It became ridiculous. Irrespective of what side of the House one is on, that is not good for how the Dáil conducts its business. Likewise today, there has been precious little engagement with the Chief Whip. Business is done by order now. Whatever the Executive orders becomes the order of the day.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The House is governed by Standing Orders.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There is no meaningful consultation. There is no discussion on the daily schedule or on what the Order of Business should be.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Government is getting carried away.

Deputy Finian McGrath

It is going to your head, lads.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Business is announced by diktat. The Parliament is losing any sense of sovereignty, independence or assertion-----

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----because of the increasingly-----

Deputy Derek Nolan

Is there a time limit to contributions?

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----disconnected way the Executive is behaving and not bringing Parliament fully on board in terms of the issues we are being asked to consider. We were hanging around this morning not knowing whether there would be Leaders' Questions-----

Deputy Finian McGrath

That is right.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----or when it would take place.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We will come to the issue later.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

What I hear from our Whip is that the Chief Whip goes into silent mode.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

That is not a bad thing either.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We did not have a revised schedule at 11 a.m. or 12 noon today. That is what is going on. The Chief Whip should learn the art of consultation, engagement and listen to people-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

All right. I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----because it is not happening.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Peadar Tóibín. Order please.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Deputy Martin wants to go back to Cork.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

The Dáil schedule is decided now to suit Government spin.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Deputy Kelleher can talk when he is on this side of the House.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Leaders' Questions will be on following Mario Draghi's conference.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please. Excuse me, Deputy. I call Deputy Tóibín.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle------

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Could we please have order for the leader of each group?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Deputy Kelleher will be an old man before he is over here.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Táimid díreach in aghaidh Uimh. 1 san ord seo inniu. Tá muintir na tíre ag foghlaim faoin méid atá ag titim amach san ECB i dtaobh an promissory note ó Twitter agus ón Idirlíon. Ba cheart don Rialtas teacht os comhair na Dála inniu chun an idirbheart seo a chur faoi bhráid an Tí. We are learning via Twitter and the Internet today that a deal might be agreed between the Government and the ECB on the promissory note. Shockingly, there is no provision in today's Order Paper to deal with the issue. The world and its mother are hearing this information and the representative body of this State is not being given the opportunity to debate the issue.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is a bad day for democracy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

What the people want to know in this situation is whether there will be a write-down of the debt, if there will be a reduction in the debt-to-GDP ratio-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are on the first proposal.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The hangover of the debt will last a lot longer than the hangover of some Labour and Fine Gael Deputies.

A Deputy

They are a disgrace.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The Government is playing fast and loose-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

-----with the democratic process of this country. It is extremely important that this contempt ends today. Will we have a debate on the issue today, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett on behalf of people in profit, People before Profit - my apologies, Deputy.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

That is why the Deputy went to a private school.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order please, Deputies.

A Deputy

You got that one right.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

People in profit.

Deputy Michael Ring

Profit with a leader's allowance.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

What we can say with certainly is that it is profit before people all the way with this Government.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

Hear, hear.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are on proposal No. 1 now.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Last night and again this morning in the way the business of this House has been ordered the Minister has shown utter contempt for the democracy of this country and for its citizens.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Incredibly last night a Bill of enormous proportions and significance for this country, which will echo for decades in the lives of the citizens of this country, was voted through when most Deputies had not even read the Bill. Is that not a shameful disregard of our democracy?

Deputy James Bannon

Did the Deputy read it?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

There are school students in the Gallery today. Would Deputy Quinn, as Minister for Education and Skills, advise them to do their exams without having read the textbooks? I bet him he would not-----

Deputy Derek Keating

How does the Deputy know what-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----but yet we voted through a Bill----

Deputy Derek Keating

The cheek of him - hypocrite.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----that is maybe the most important Bill any of us will ever vote on in our lifetimes and we were not even given a chance to read it.

Deputy Noel Harrington

The Deputy has spent most of his life on TV3.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Again this morning, we did not know what the Order of Business was, we did not know if there were going to be Leaders' Question and I have just got a text on my phone stating that RTE is reporting that a deal has been done and there is no provision for debate on that matter in the Houses of the Oireachtas. That is shameful.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Who texted the Deputy?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Is the Minister going to at least allow a discussion on the deal on which I believe the Cabinet is meeting at 2 p.m.? Will he give briefings to the finance spokespeople after that Cabinet meeting to let the elected representatives of this country know what deal the Government is doing with the ECB?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I can understand why Deputies who have been recently elected to this House are very concerned about the way in which business was done over the past 48 hours. It was not of this Government's choosing but I will take no lectures from the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party-----

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

-----no lectures whatsoever in relation to riding roughshod-----

Deputy Billy Kelleher

The Minister gives lectures.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

-----over procedures when in this House on those benches we were here the night that it tied this country's future.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

That is not true.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Where was the Deputy?

Deputy Micheál Martin

There was no legislation on the bank guarantee at-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

We debated it for three days here.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The reality, for the information of all Members of the House on both sides, many of whom are in this House for the first time, is that we did not choose voluntarily to move the legislation that was moved at speed over the last 12 hours. Given the leak that obtained we had to move quickly. There was a leak out of-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Your Government.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

-----Frankfurt. If the Deputies like, I will give them the answer. To protect the interests of Irish citizens we had to move quickly-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What about the jobs?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

-----with the measure that was always going to be part of the deal, otherwise, as many of the spokespersons have said on radio and in other parts of the media generally, we could not have drafted such a piece of complex legislation in the matter of hours, and all the Members know that. They are all here long enough to know that. The reason for the difficulty today, and I apologise for the inconvenience that it has caused for everybody, is that while there are reports in the media of a deal done, in principle, or a deal about to be done or whatever which way one wants to describe it, we have not yet received formal confirmation of precisely what is to be agreed and when we have-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Do you know what you want?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

-----that information the Government will resume, it will meet and decide what the appropriate response is and as soon as that happens we will then communicate with the House. The Whip who has been in contact with the Whips of the various other parties right through this day----

Deputy Micheál Martin

He has not been.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I have just been informed by Deputy Paul Kehoe that he has been.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I got a telephone call but it was not from the Whip.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Timmy Dooley

If the Deputy keeps going that way, he will be a Minister.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies, please. The Minister has the floor.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Notwithstanding the majority that this current Administration has, it is not our intention or to our benefit that we should discommode any Deputy in this House, whether he or she be an Opposition or a Government Deputy. They all have appointments and commitments. It is not in the interests of efficient or democratic Government that we discommode Members of this House because they are all committed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It has nothing to do with that.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

It is facilitating spinning.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I apologise for the discommoding to all Deputies in this House. When we have hard and firm information it will be communicated to the House and I am reliably informed that there has been continuous sets of communications with the Whips of the various parties.

Deputy Micheál Martin

On a point of order-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will put the question on proposal No. 1.

Deputy Micheál Martin

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, on a point of order-----

Question put:

The Dáil divided: Tá, 84; Níl, 35.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg; Níl, Deputies Seán Ó Fearghaíl and Robert Troy.

Question declared carried.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The next proposal to put to the House is that No. 10, the proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Planning and Development (Planning Enforcement) General Policy Directive 2013, be decided without debate. Is that agreed?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not agreed. I think there should be a debate on this particular issue and I am at a loss as to why a debate in plenary session was not facilitated. Our general concern with the order of the day and the manner in which the business of the House has been organised is a very fundamental one.

I am not lecturing anyone. I am simply saying the way Members of the House are being treated is unacceptable. I say to the Minister that the Government is treating the Dáil with the kind of contempt he treated the students of Ireland with when he promised them, on the steps of Trinity College, that he would reduce third level charges and said, a month later, that he had to make that promise to get into power. As we know, Deputy Rabbitte said that is the kind of thing you do at an election.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

He broke a solemn promise.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

We told the truth last time.

Deputy Ciara Conway

Yes, last time.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

The Government parties were burning bondholders and locking up bankers.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Minister has used words like "discommode" and "inconvenience". This is not about inconveniencing anyone. I will be in Leinster House all day. It makes no difference to me what time the House sits. The issue is the manner in which the Dáil and the Members are being treated. There was a lack of courtesy and proper engagement with Opposition leaders and finance spokespeople last evening. There should have been consultation. The Chief Whip is not engaging with the other Whips. There is no genuine consultation. The affairs of the House are being organised by diktat.

The Minister said he is on throughout the course of the day. He has not been. That is the point.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Deputy Martin should speak to his own party Whip. There is a breakdown in communication.

Deputy Micheál Martin

As other Deputies have said, Opposition Whips have had no say in the scheduling of business or in what should be discussed today. The Whips on this side of the House were not invited to make any suggestions and no opportunity was provided to this side of the House to say we should discuss the negotiations that are taking place today. There will be a press conference in relation to that, but the Dáil will be behind the public with regard to knowledge or presentation on that issue, because the public will find out through the media first.

That is the basic issue. It is not a matter of being discommoded or inconvenienced. It is one of a fundamental lack of engagement and of respect for the Parliament.

There was no legislation in the middle of the night on any bank guarantee. This is being peddled as if it were a fact. It never happened.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Alan Shatter

We are tidying his mess.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The legislation on the bank guarantee was passed in broad daylight over a number of days. Deputy Durkan and others voted for it. Not only did they vote for it but their leader, now Taoiseach, wanted it extended to cover other banks that were not covered by it.

There should be debate on the proposal for dealing with No. 10. Why will there not be debate on this?

(Interruptions).

Deputy James Bannon

Hypocrite.

Deputy Alan Shatter

We are tidying up Deputy Martin's mess. He has some brass neck.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The Minister for Justice and Equality is a disgrace. What do the gardaí of Ireland think of him? It is costing us €300,000 a year to mind him. He is not worth it.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Where is the Deputy's cap?

(Interruptions).

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

It is hard to discuss the Order of Business when we cannot even have order in the Chamber. This issue is of serious importance. Thousands of euro of debt hang over each citizen of the State. Taxes and the provision of public services are at stake. A generation is at tipping point. We need more than shadow boxing on this issue. We need a real debate, provided by the Government, on this issue.

The Cabinet will meet today to discuss the promissory note deal with the ECB. The Minister is right. The country knows the Government was engaged in crisis management last night. Today is different and the Government can design what happens. There is space today to have a debate. If space cannot be found for a debate today it could be held tomorrow.

It is also important that finance spokespeople have a proper briefing on this occasion, and not the microwave walk-through that happened yesterday. It did not serve the debate or the country well.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin did not seek, through their Whips, to have a debate on this motion in the House when it came back from committee. There was no request.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We emailed the Chief Whip.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

That did not happen. Can Deputy Martin show me the e-mail? Can he produce it?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I was assured by the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, a few seconds ago that she was at the committee, there was a full and comprehensive debate on the matters being addressed and there was no request from any member of the committee that there be a return to a full plenary session. The committee did not express dissatisfaction with the way it was debated or request that it be referred to the full House. Deputy Martin's business manager, the Fianna Fáil whip, did not seek to have a debate, nor did the other Opposition Whips.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am quite entitled to request a plenary session of the House.

Deputy Phil Hogan

He is not entitled to mislead people.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Deputy Martin is quite entitled to ask. He is long enough in this House, probably not long enough in opposition but long enough in this House, to know how business is done and he has not done his business properly.

Deputy Micheál Martin

And the Minister has.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 10, without debate, be agreed to," put and declared carried.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We will now deal with the third proposal.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am not disagreeing with this proposal but I wish to comment on it. It relates to Topical Issues. Today's most topical issue is the potential for a negotiated deal on the promissory note. Surely there should be provision of time to discuss that issue today.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with Leaders' Questions, Topical Issues and Oral Questions agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow agreed? Agreed.

Barr