Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Feb 2023

Vol. 1034 No. 3

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí (Atógáil) - Leaders' Questions (Resumed)

The Taoiseach

I join with the Ceann Comhairle in welcoming the members of the delegation from Moldova, along with the ambassador, Ms Larisa Micule, who we all know very well, and to assure them of our continued support for Moldova's path to its membership of the EU and our support for it in everything it is trying to do now to defend its independence and its democracy from forces that would undermine it. They are most welcome.

Tá áthas orm go bhfuil socrú nua in áit idir an tAontas Eorpach agus an Ríocht Aontaithe - the Windsor Framework. Tá seans againn anois roinnt cinnteachta a thabhairt don phobal agus do lucht gnó ó Thuaidh agus ó Dheas. Tá deis againn anois díriú ar an gcairdeas domhain idir Éire agus an Bhreatain agus é a neartú. Tá spás cruthaithe anois, tá súil agam, ina mbeidh an Pharlaimint agus Rialtas an Tuaiscirt in ann teacht le chéile arís agus dul i mbun a gcuid oibre. Níl daoine i dTuaisceart Éireann ag iarraidh filleadh ar fhadhbanna a bhaineann leis an am atá thart. Tá siad ag iarraidh dul chun cinn a dhéanamh le chéile i sochaí chomhroinnte.

The agreement reached yesterday between the UK Government and the EU is most welcome. I am very much ad idem with the Leader of the Opposition in her remarks in that regard. The Windsor Framework involves a package of legislative changes at EU and UK level, a political declaration, or rather a number of political declarations, and also amendments to the protocol. The EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement provides for the protocol to be amended within the first four years of operation.

From our point of view, as a Government, a people and a country, I believe we can be comfortable and satisfied with the outcome. When the Brexit referendum happened almost seven years ago, we set out our main objectives, which were to ensure that there was no hard border between North and South, that the European Single Market would be protected and our place within it would not be undermined, that the Good Friday Agreement would be upheld and that there would continue to be free movement of goods and people across the Border. None of this is compromised by this new framework. More importantly, none of it was ever in question.

There will be briefings offered to the parties today or tomorrow. My office will facilitate that, and we are happy to answer any questions or give any clarifications we can. The Tánaiste is going to convene the Brexit stakeholder group, including the wider business sector, NGOs, unions and so on, so that we can brief them as well.

I think it is fair to say that this is a good agreement for Europe and the UK. It will allow us to put relations back on a more solid footing. That is really important now because we need the UK as a partner and ally when it comes to the war in Ukraine, the energy crisis, bringing inflation down and other things that are important to all of us. It could be very good for Irish and British relations as well. I believe we can build a new and close partnership, post Brexit, with the UK. I hope to develop those conversations with Prime Minister Sunak in the period ahead.

Above all, I think the agreement works for Northern Ireland. There will be no hard border between North and South, businesses will have access to both the EU and UK markets, which is an economic advantage for Northern Ireland, goods can flow freely from Great Britain to Northern Ireland through the green channel, and the same items that are on the shelves in supermarkets in Britain will be on the shelves in supermarkets in Belfast. Issues with medicines, parcels, plants, pets, packages, sweet potatoes and steel have all been resolved. Northern Ireland will be able to apply UK excise and VAT rates in certain circumstances. A serious effort has been made to close the democratic deficit through the Stormont brake mechanism.

It is fair to say that the EU has listened to the concerns of people, businesses and political parties in Northern Ireland. Those concerns have been listened to, compromises have been made and changes have been made where they were possible. I know Members are going to want to take some time to consider this agreement. The legal text is 400 pages long and people are going to want to see it and pore over it. I understand that the views of all five major Northern Ireland parties, including the DUP, are important in that regard. They will want to consider it, ask questions and issue a reasoned response. I hope, at the end of that, we will find that all five parties are able to agree to it and to support it, thus allowing the Assembly, the Executive and the North-South Ministerial Council to function again, as we all want them to.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I thank the Taoiseach for that. There is no doubt but that the certainty and progress of which he speaks is desired by all of us and, most particularly, by people in the North. It is fair also to say that Europe listened to the concerns that were raised, as it made clear it always would, and agreement and a deal have been struck.

Let us reflect, however, on the fact that the biggest concern for people in the North is that they have government. The biggest concern is that we have an Executive and a functioning Assembly nine months after a democratic election. There is now, I am sure the Taoiseach will agree, no logic for the DUP to continue its blockade. The negotiations are over. The deal has been struck. Yes, we need to pore over the fine detail of that, but I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that we can do that work with a functioning Assembly and an Executive in place. There is now no room for further delay or prevarication. Nine months on, people in the North need their Government up and functioning. Will the Taoiseach join with me in calling on the DUP to make that happen without further delay?

The Taoiseach

I read the statement of the leader of the DUP last night and heard his interview on radio this morning. I think he has asked for a little time to consider the agreement, to pore over the text and to ask some questions. That is reasonable, and we should allow a little time and space for that to happen and for him to consult his party. That is not unreasonable. Certainly, the European Union and the British Government are happy for that to happen. We can see that there is strong cross-party support for this, not just in Northern Ireland but also here and in Britain. I hope that allows us to proceed, to open a new chapter in relations and, in particular, to allow the Government in Northern Ireland to function again, which I agree is what the people of Northern Ireland voted for. They want decisions to be made locally. Tá siad ag iarraidh go ndéileálfaidh institiúidí polaitíochta leis na ceisteanna tábhachtacha: cúram sláinte, costais mhaireachtála, tithíocht agus an geilleagar.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

My office is inundated with correspondence from householders and small business owners who cannot pay their energy bills. We know that there is an energy bills crisis and that the crisis is not new. Indeed, it is now 13 months since we in the Labour Party brought forward a Dáil motion on the cost-of-living crisis and energy prices.

While the situation was severe a year ago, it is intolerable now. We saw the latest Central Statistics Office, CSO, survey on income and living conditions confirm that the number of people at risk of poverty rose by 76,000 last year and that this rise was driven by an increase in the number of older people at risk of poverty. Our Labour Party representatives have been hearing from pensioners who have had to resort to taking out credit union loans just to meet the cost of their energy bills. Adding insult to injury are the unfairness and inequity of the crisis and the Government's hands-off approach, which has exacerbated that unfairness. We now see wholesale electricity prices falling but providers refusing to pass that benefit on to working families and households. All the while, companies are reaping record-breaking, eye-watering profits. Now we see that Electric Ireland is to cut small businesses' electricity bills by 10% from tomorrow. This is welcome news for SMEs, which we know are struggling to break even. Electric Ireland has also confirmed, however, that it will leave household charges untouched.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Ivana Bacik

We know that the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has called on electricity and gas suppliers to cut prices for everyone as soon as possible. Is making calls on providers the best the Government can do? It is simply not good enough. In December, Electric Ireland announced that it would forego some of its profits to give a €50 credit to household customers, which was welcome. However, customers are now paying approximately 90% more per unit of electricity-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Somebody in Electric Ireland is trying to get through - that is all I will say - and they will not take no for an answer. A Cheann Comhairle, you might give me a little latitude-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I will.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

-----given that somebody's phone has gone off. I jest. I do not think it was Electric Ireland, but you never know.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

It never answers its phones anyway.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

It never answers its phones and we are hearing about that from many people who cannot get through to Electric Ireland so it is supremely ironic to have a phone call cutting across a critique of Electric Ireland. Customers are paying, as we have heard, approximately 90% more per unit of electricity than they did in the spring of last year and families are facing very significant annual bills. Where is the fairness in that? We are looking for a sense of urgency from the Government and we are looking for a sense that mere words of encouragement are not the strongest response it can provide. Previously, during Leaders’ Questions, I raised with the Taoiseach the scandal of district heating companies charging ridiculous amounts, up to four times more, for energy than other households pay. I have heard the Minister say that is a matter for the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities, which is not good enough. I have spoken before about the need for the Government to take the Corrib gas field into State ownership to enable us to control gas prices and reduce bills but again the Taoiseach has said such a move is beyond the Government’s control. However, Electric Ireland is already in State control so what is the excuse this time? How can the Government justify a hands-off approach when people are struggling to make ends meet? Ní féidir le daoine íoc as a gcuid billí míosúla. Caithfidh na comhlachtaí praghas an fhuinnimh a laghdú do theaghlaigh freisin.

The Taoiseach

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta as a cuid ceisteanna. I want to acknowledge the fact that businesses and people are facing very high electricity and gas bills, and as a result of that many households are struggling, particularly pensioner and low-income households. Many small businesses are also struggling with very high utility bills. Mar a dúirt an Teachta, tá an costas maireachtála an-ard. Tá an praghas ar leictreachas agus ar ghás an-ard ach tá an Rialtas anseo agus tá sé ag cabhrú. As the Deputy mentioned in her question, utility bills are now very high. I meet people, including individual homeowners and business people who show me their bills, and it has been a real shock for many people. In many ways a significant number of those big electricity and gas bills have only been arriving in recent weeks. In the run-up to Christmas and around Christmas, people thought it might not be so bad, and then the winter bills started arriving in January and February and people got a very big shock. Unfortunately, there are more bills to come in March and April. However, the Government is acting. We have taken three major actions to help people with these high costs. First is the decision to keep the VAT rate on electricity and gas at 9% until the end of October, the lowest VAT rate we have ever had on electricity and gas. We have also decided to pay energy credits and there is still another €200 energy credit to come off people's bills for the March and April period. We have also substantially improved the temporary business energy support scheme to help businesses, farmers, professionals and sole traders with their bills so that more people can qualify, so they can get more money back and it is backdated to September, which will help many people.

It is welcome that two companies so far have announced price reductions. Pinergy has announced reductions for retail customers and Electric Ireland has announced reductions for its business customers but that is nowhere near enough. Wholesale prices are coming down and I understand that there is a lag between wholesale prices coming down and retail prices for homeowners and businesses coming down. I get that but it should not be too much of a lag. It only took a few months for prices to go up so it should only take a few months for prices to go down. We expect to see electricity and gas companies reduce their prices over the course of the coming months for businesses and residential customers.

It will not just be about polite encouragement; there is a windfall tax coming and that will be legislated for in this House and in the Seanad. That will allow us to recoup some of the profits and give them back to people in the form of reductions in bills. We have to work out the exact mechanisms around that but that is what we intend to do. We will also be saying to State-owned companies that if they make hyper profits we have the power to take some of those off them in the form of a special dividend and use that money to help people as well.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I am glad the Taoiseach acknowledges that not enough is being done but the Government is not just a bystander in this. It is time for a more urgent sense of intervention by the Government on this issue because it seems to people nach bhfuil an Rialtas ag déanamh aon rud. The Government is not doing anything for people who are seeing this inequity. It is amounting to a quadruple whammy because we have seen the magnitude of energy providers' profits and we have seen the inertia and delay in the Government's approach to a windfall tax. I am glad that the Taoiseach has confirmed that will be introduced and that the Government is looking at the super dividend approach. However, we need to know when that will happen.

The third thing we are seeing is the extortionate charges on household and, fourth, the inequity where we see reductions in wholesale prices being passed on to businesses but not to families and households. There are increasingly questions about the rationale being offered by energy companies. Electric Ireland suggested that there are hedging contracts that prevent it from moving on household bills as swiftly as it is moving on business bills, but business groups are questioning this so-called explanation and this idea that hedging contracts must necessarily lead to a time lag between wholesale price falls and reductions in bills for households. It is simply not good enough. It is good to hear the Taoiseach agree with me on the hardship that individual families and households are facing but it is not good enough that the Government is simply acting as a bystander and adopting this wait-and-see approach without acting urgently to intervene to ensure households will see the necessary reductions in their bills.

The Taoiseach

Rinne an Rialtas go leor agus beidh níos mo gníomhartha ón Rialtas sna seachtainí romhainn. The Government has done a good deal and we will do more in the coming weeks. We have reduced VAT to 9% on electricity and gas. Another energy credit will be deducted from people's bills for the March-April period. We have improved the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, the scheme to help businesses, farmers, sole traders and professionals with their energy bills. The next step is the windfall tax. We plan to legislate for that in the coming weeks. I know that will be welcomed by the Opposition. That tax has two elements, which are a super tax on the profits made by the Corrib gas field and various distilleries, and an element of tax on the generators. That money will be recycled into reducing bills for people, which is what we intend to do. As I mentioned earlier, when it comes to a State-owned company, we have the power to take a special dividend, which is certainly under consideration.

One thing we will disagree on is nationalising the Corrib gas field. As the Deputy will understand as a lawyer and as somebody who understands our Constitution and natural justice, to nationalise something, the shareholders have to be compensated. To do so would cost roughly ten times their annual profits. It would cost many billions of euro to nationalise that gas field, which is many billions of euro that we could not spend on other important things like education-----

Deputy Ivana Bacik

It is a temporary emergency measure.

The Taoiseach

The temporary compensation still has to be paid and there would be a temporary delay in investment in education, healthcare and housing as a result.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Today, the Children's Rights Alliance highlighted once again one of the most shameful aspects of the utterly disastrous housing crisis, namely the phenomena of child homelessness and the impact that has on children, on their mental health and on their well-being, and how, as they put it, it deprives and robs children of their precious childhood. The figures are stark. There are now 3,431 children in emergency accommodation. That can be multiplied by several factors if the number of children who have been in and out of homelessness and emergency accommodation over the past number of years is taken into account. A total of 1,609 families are homeless, with family homelessness up by 44% in one year and child homelessness up by 34%. They are shocking figures and it is a shocking failure by the State to look after our most vulnerable people.

As the Children's Rights Alliance highlights, much this is down to the Government's failure to control rents and the yawning gap between rent supports in the form of housing assistance payment, HAP, and other payments that the Government is willing to give, and the actual level of rents. The Government has done absolutely nothing to bridge that gap to give people some prospect of being able to find an affordable rental property when at the same time it has failed to deliver the public and affordable housing that could solve the crisis. The figures are stark. In my office today, we went on daft.ie and checked what rental properties were available in our area. There were 20 two-bedroom properties available. The average rent for those properties was €3,100 with the cheapest being €2,250. There were six three-bedroom properties. The average rent for those six was €4,000 per month, with the cheapest being €2,995. There was one one-bedroom property which, incredibly, is being rented at €3,445.

The HAP rates available to people are a fraction of those rents, leaving no chance for people who are facing the prospect of being evicted through no fault of their own, or who are just looking for accommodation for themselves and their children of being able to afford those rental properties. My question is very simple. If the Taoiseach will not agree to the call we have made to address these matters over the past few weeks, will he now listen to the Children's Rights Alliance who said that he must retain the moratorium on no-fault evictions into homelessness. Will he increase the rent supports available to people so that they have some prospect of affording these shocking rents, if he is not willing to do what he should do, which is to introduce rent controls to make rents affordable for ordinary people?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Children's Rights Alliance for the work they do. We do not always see eye to eye but we have had very good engagement with them as a Government down the years. I am aware of its Report Card 2023, which was issued today or yesterday. To be fair to the alliance, in the round it gave the Government two As, five Bs, four Cs, four Ds and one E. We did not get two As last year and it is worth noting that the alliance has given the Government two As - one for enacting the Harassment and Harmful Communications and Related Offences Bill, which protects children from some of the things that happen online, and the second for the enactment of the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill and the establishment of the Online Safety Commissioner by the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin. There are five Bs in other areas and I will not go into the detail of that. People can read the report for themselves. On the issue of homelessness, the Government got a B in one category and a D-minus in the other. The B is for the development of our national youth homelessness strategy. The D-minus, which is up from an E last year but still bad, is due to a reduction in the number of homeless families. That is because, and I acknowledge this, the number of homeless families has not come down and, indeed, has increased slightly in recent months. That is not at all acceptable or desirable from the part of Government.

On what the Government is doing, I can think of five things we are doing to help people who are facing high rents. We acknowledge that people are facing very high rents particularly in our cities, but not just in our cities. The first is the rent tax credit. More than 170,000 people have claimed this. It is €500 per renter, €1,000 for a couple and €1,500 for three people renting a house in a house share. It is something we can build on in future budgets if the public finances allow. The second is the cost-rental housing, which is now a reality. It started under the last Government and became a reality under this Government and we need to scale it up. I met the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, only yesterday to talk about the ways that we can scale it up. The third is the building of social housing. There were probably more social homes built last year than any year since 1975. Not in my lifetime or perhaps in the Deputy's has there been a Government more committed to building new social housing than this.

The Deputy mentioned a daft.ie report earlier which, on rent pressure zones, pointed out that for existing renters, who are the vast majority of renters and who already have a tenancy, rents rose by 3.6% last year. There is also HAP, and making it available to 16,000 more families and people, by making the changes that we made. I acknowledge there is more to do in this area and we are certainly giving consideration as to what else we can do to help people, particularly by scaling up social housing and the cost-rental housing in the period ahead. The Government had not made a decision on the extension of the eviction ban. We will have to make a decision on that in the next two weeks and we said that we would. As the Deputy knows, there are pros and cons in doing so. It is not a straightforward decision.

There is a way the Deputy can help. We all accept that we cannot solve this housing crisis without more supply and we all accept that it is about more than supply, but we definitely cannot solve it without more supply. I have not objected to a housing development in seven years. I do not have the heart to do it anymore. Developments might not be perfect but they are better than nothing and they can help. Only in the past year between April 2021 and May 2022, the Deputy has objected to 1,315 new homes in his constituency alone. It is not right.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Taoiseach studiously decided not to answer the questions I raised. To be absolutely clear on that particular point, in the same period I did not oppose and, in many cases, actively supported thousands and thousands of planning applications and the commencement of construction, not least in areas such as Cherrywood, which is the biggest residential development in the country, or Shanganagh, which will be the biggest social housing development in the country. I actively supported and pushed for those developments.

A Deputy

You objected. There are a few Deputies doing that.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Boyd Barrett without interruption.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

In some cases, such as co-living, I object, or I sided with students who opposed unaffordable student accommodation. What the Taoiseach did not do, in his diversionary tactics, was answer the point about whether he will continue to allow families to go into homelessness who have done absolutely nothing wrong. Is he going to let more children and families end up homeless because he decides to stand with landlords rather than the rights and needs of children and families who are faced with the prospect of homelessness?

An Ceann Comhairle

Time is up now Deputy.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Is the Taoiseach going to raise the rent supports that are available to people, in the absence of bringing in rent controls which should be done in order to deal with these obscene rents-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Time is up Deputy please.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----to ensure that there is some prospect for families looking for accommodation affording the rents being charged by the very developers-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is over time.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----who are charging these rents? That is why I oppose some of their developments.

A Deputy

How many children are living in the developments the Deputy objected to?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. I am almost astounded by the Deputy's response. Does he really think he deserves some sort of reward, or thanks, or kudos, for not opposing housing?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

For actively supporting it.

The Taoiseach

We should all be actively supporting the building of additional housing in our communities. He deserves no reward, nor thanks, nor pats on the back for not opposing thousands of new homes in his constituency, or even for supporting them. Between April 2021 and May 2022 he has opposed 1,315 new homes in his constituency. Where would those people be living now Deputy, if he had his way? However, to answer his question, we have not made a decision yet on the extension of the eviction ban. We will make a decision on that quite soon. There are pros and cons to be weighed up. As I mentioned before, 30,000 people come home from abroad to live in Ireland every year. These are Irish citizens coming home. They do not all own houses and apartments but many of them do, more than the Deputy might think, and them not being able to move back into their own houses is a problem. Also, there are people throughout the country who bought an apartment in the city for when their kids go to college. We have to take that into account as well. We will take all these issues into account.

In regard to HAP, we keep the thresholds and the amounts paid under review all the time. They have been increased in the past. It remains under review as to whether to increase them again.

Deputy Denis Naughten

When the Taoiseach resumed his current role in December he announced that a unit would be set up within his Department to focus on reducing child poverty and improving well-being in order to make Ireland the best country in Europe in which to be a child. I believe it would help if we started by improving access to necessary therapies through primary care services, including occupational therapy, speech and language therapy and physiotherapy. We have all seen the crisis in Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service, CAMHS, exposed by the Mental Health Commission report, but the reality is that all services for children are in crisis. Two of the most significant battles faced by parents of children with a disability relate to getting a diagnosis and after that long, tortuous process, the second struggle is the inaccessibility of regular supports. Mary and her son, David, who is in fourth class, are one example. The family had to go privately to secure a diagnosis because of the current waiting lists for a referral for CAMHS, occupational therapy referral and an educational psychological assessment. They have been forced down this road, borrowing from grandparents, because otherwise David would be in secondary school by the time he would get access to an appointment under the current public health system due to the horrendous waiting lists. His mum has now been advised that David is likely to need physiotherapy in a couple of years to assist him with his condition. Given the current waiting list this means that he needs to be put on the waiting list now in a pre-emptive move to ensure that he can have access to the services when he needs them.

However, what about the children whose parents or grandparents cannot pay for such interventions? They are at the mercy of the ever-growing public waiting lists. The State is failing in its obligation to provide the early intervention and support that these children urgently need.

Investing in our children at a young age makes much more sense and allows them to reach their full potential and actively contribute to our society. We need to stop these children being effectively hidden away in a corner. In the past, that hiding may have been physical; now it is emotional as their potential wastes away while they wait and wait for access to services. These are the essential services that we must provide to help these children reach their full potential. We should provide these services as a fundamental right for all our children and I urge the Taoiseach to prioritise this within the new unit in his Department.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. On behalf of the Government, I want to acknowledge that we have a very real problem when it comes to children being able to access the therapies, assessments, treatment and counselling they need. Children are being let down.

It is not so much a matter of money or political will; both are there in abundance. There is a real difficulty in recruiting, training and retaining staff, as well as organising services in such a way that children and their needs are prioritised. Like the Deputy, I meet parents all the time who tell me about their struggles and the fights they have to go through to get the treatments, therapies and assessments their children need. It is impossible to justify because it cannot be justified. It will be part of the work programme of the child poverty and wellbeing unit being established in my Department.

As I mentioned, we are committed to reducing waiting lists. For that reason, we are increasing capacity and reforming models of care to ensure care is provided in a more timely way across all age groups. One measure being advanced at the moment is the development of community healthcare networks as part of the enhanced community care programme. Almost €200 million was provided in this year's budget to make that happen. The investment includes the development of primary care teams within 96 new community healthcare networks. Some 94 of these have been established and each serves a population of roughly 50,000. Approximately 3,500 extra staff will be recruited to make this happen. Of these, it is expected approximately 2,000 will be primary care teams, with the rest being specialist and intervention teams.

There is flexibility within the overall budget. It is estimated that €100 million of this will go into primary care. To date, 2,500 staff have been recruited or are at an advanced stage of the recruitment process as part of the programme. Furthermore, children and young people continue to be seen in primary care through specific investments, including the primary care psychology waiting list initiative and other waiting list initiatives the Government is funding.

Deputy Denis Naughten

Late last year, 436 children in County Galway were waiting for a physiotherapy appointment, with the longest waiting time being more than three years. In County Roscommon, a further 95 children were waiting for physiotherapy, with the longest waiting time being almost one year. The picture is just as bleak for occupational therapy, where 540 children are waiting for an appointment in Galway, with wait times of more than a year in some cases. A further 115 children in County Roscommon are waiting for occupational therapy appointments, some of whom have been waiting for more than a year. Waiting lists for speech and language therapy services in Roscommon range from seven to 11 months for high-priority patients and for up to 18 months for lower-priority patients. The waiting lists are continuing to grow and our children are being left behind as a result. We must address this issue now.

The Taoiseach

The figures I have from the HSE and Department of Health indicate that we are seeing a levelling off in waiting lists. There has been an 18% reduction in those waiting for initial speech and language therapy treatment according to the latest available data. The latest available data from October indicates a small reduction in physiotherapy waiting lists of approximately 3% and approximately 6% for occupational therapy. That is pretty minor in terms of reductions in waiting lists and is not a satisfactory situation.

As I said, there is no lack of political will or money; both are in abundance.

The challenge we face is in organising the services and also in ensuring that we can train, recruit and retain the right number of staff. It is very much a priority stream of work for the Government at the moment.