Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 9 May 2023

Vol. 1037 No. 6

An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)

I move:

Tuesday's business shall be:

- Motion re Referral to Committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of Planning and Development Regulations 2023 (without debate)

- Statements to mark Europe Day (not to exceed 145 mins)

Private members' business shall be the Motion re Food Costs and Rising Grocery Bills, selected by Sinn Féin.

Wednesday's business shall be:

- Statements on Launch of the European Year of Skills (not to exceed 145 mins)

- Civil Defence Bill 2023 (Report and Final Stages) (to be taken no earlier than 5 p.m. and to conclude within 30 mins)

- Regulated Professions (Health and Social Care) (Amendment) Bill 2022 (Report and Final Stages) (to conclude within 45 mins)

- Agricultural and Food Supply Chain Bill 2022 (Report Stage, resumed on Amendment No. 7, and Fifth Stage) (if not previously concluded, to stand adjourned after 3 hours)

Private members' business shall be the Motion re Planning and Rural Housing, selected by the Rural Independent Group.

Thursday's business shall be the Control of Exports Bill 2023 (Second Stage).

Thursday evening business shall be the Motion re Report entitled “An Comhaontas Cuimsitheach Eacnamaíoch agus Trádála agus an tionchar a bheadh aige ar an nGaeilge, ar an nGaeltacht agus ar Phobal Labhartha na Gaeilge”.

Proposed arrangements for this week's business

In relation to Tuesday's business, it is proposed that:

1. the ordinary routine of business as contained in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the extent that the time for Government business shall be extended in accordance with the arrangements for the Statements to mark Europe Day, with consequential effect on the commencement time for private members’ business, Parliamentary Questions to the Minister for Finance and topical issues, and on the time for the adjournment of the Dáil, which may be later than 10.30 p.m.;

2. the Motion re Referral to Committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of Planning and Development Regulations 2023 shall be taken without debate; and

3. the Statements to mark Europe Day shall not exceed 145 minutes, with arrangements in accordance with those agreed by Order of the Dáil of 30th July, 2020, for 135 minutes, following which a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes, and members may share time.

In relation to Wednesday's business, it is proposed that:

1. the ordinary routine of business as contained in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the extent that the time for Government business shall be extended in accordance with the agreed arrangements for that business, with consequential effect on the commencement time for the weekly divisions and on the time for the adjournment of the Dáil;

2. the Statements on Launch of the European Year of Skills 2023 shall not exceed 145 minutes, with arrangements in accordance with those agreed by Order of the Dáil of 30th July, 2020, for 135 minutes, following which a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes, and members may share time;

3. the proceedings on Report and Final Stages of the Civil Defence Bill 2023 shall be taken no earlier than 5 p.m. and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 30 minutes, and any amendments not disposed of shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence;

4. the proceedings on Report and Final Stages of the Regulated Professions (Health and Social Care) (Amendment) Bill 2022 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 45 minutes by one question which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Health; and

5. the proceedings on the resumed Report Stage and the Final Stage of the Agricultural and Food Supply Chain Bill 2022 shall, if not previously concluded, be interrupted and stand adjourned three hours after the conclusion of the proceedings on the Regulated Professions (Health and Social Care) (Amendment) Bill 2022.

In relation to Thursday's business, it is proposed that:

1. the ordinary routine of business as contained in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the extent that topical issues shall be taken no later than 5 p.m., with consequential effect on the commencement time for the Motion re Committee Report entitled “An Comhaontas Cuimsitheach Eacnamaíoch agus Trádála agus an tionchar a bheadh aige ar an nGaeilge, ar an nGaeltacht agus ar Phobal Labhartha na Gaeilge” and on the time for the adjournment of the Dáil; and

2. the proceedings on the Second Stage of the Control of Exports Bill 2023 shall, if not previously concluded, be interrupted and stand adjourned at 5 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed?

Deputy Matt Carthy

It is not agreed. The Government's refusal to provide any clarity on reports that there has been a long-standing agreement with the British Government that allows the RAF to operate in Irish airspace simply is not good enough. Such a dependency on a foreign Government to monitor and protect our skies against hostile aircraft is a scandalous exposure of the failure of successive governments to invest adequately in our Defence Forces and our defence capacity. Considering the importance of this issue and the fact that this long-standing agreement we are told of has never been subject to even a Dáil debate, never mind Dáil approval, will the Government allow for urgent statements and a debate on the matter in the House this week, please?

Deputy Bríd Smith

Another long-standing report we have been waiting for in this House is the review of the termination of pregnancy legislation.

This welcome review has finally come through and it contains startling findings. However, I understand that the Business Committee has refused space for statements on this. The review will go before the Joint Committee on Health in three or four sessions, allegedly to finish before the summer and with a report to come back. It is really not the job of the Joint Committee on Health to talk about legislation that is required, however. It is the job of this House and, ultimately, the job of the Government to legislate. Time should be given in this House to debate that most important and long-awaited review. I request that the Business Committee seriously consider this and not dismiss it because women have waited long enough for full access to abortion rights in this country.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I support Deputy Bríd Smith on that intervention.

I welcome the news that the Government is not opposing the Opposition motion on the cost of living tabled by Sinn Féin this evening. The Taoiseach indicated that the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, will meet with the retail forum this week. Can the Taoiseach commit to giving Government time next week to debate this really pressing issue of rising food prices, sustained increases in energy bills and this cost-of-living crisis that is impacting on so many households? My colleague, Deputy Nash, has been raising consistently for some time now the need for more significant Government intervention. It would be good to hear from the Government next week as to the outcome of the engagements the Minister of State is having this week and for the Taoiseach to give Government time to debate this issue.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

The GAA describes itself as part of the Irish consciousness and says it plays an influential role in Irish society. RTÉ describes itself as the champion of Irish culture. It says it will act in the best interests of society and that universality is one of its guiding principles; that it is for everyone and available to everyone. Yet these two entities have come together essentially to privatise the viewing of our national sport. I would like a debate in this House on what events should be free to air. People pay their television licence. The public service broadcaster should be providing this service to people for the television licence they pay.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I request on behalf of my group a proper debate on the nitrates directive. We have seen in the headlines today who are the big polluters. The farmers are being blamed here. Bringing the nitrates directive rates down from 250 kg to 220 kg will have a devastating impact on medium-sized and large farmers, and not that large either in the cases of those who have 50 to 100 cows. They will have to cull or get rid of so many of their animals to meet these unachievable and unattainable targets. It will not be viable for them to survive anymore. It is another way of getting rid of the farmers and getting rid of the animals. Green policy has gone daft, and the Government will not touch what it should be touching. It is time the Government stood up - they are supposed to be rural parties - to defend the farming communities and our food sector, which is so badly needed and has been so vital in rural Ireland for generations. Those nitrates directive rates might be all fine and dandy, but they are not achievable. It will cause havoc to so many young farm families if they go ahead.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputies for raising these issues. The security of our skies is a national security question and, therefore, I am limited in what I can say about it. What I can say is that any arrangements we have in place are consistent with our foreign defence and security policy. We have a very good and effective Air Corps in Ireland. We do not have an air force of the nature of the United Kingdom, France, Russia or the US and we never will. We have to put in arrangements for certain scenarios and we have arrangements for certain scenarios to assure our safety and national security.

With regard to the independent review on abortion services and abortion laws, my understanding is that the Business Committee decided to allow the committee to do its work first and then we can come back to this Chamber for further debate, which is appropriate.

Time has been set aside this week to debate the cost of living. The Government wants to use its time for legislation. It is important that we set aside time to talk about things. It is also important that we set aside time to do things as legislators and we will be using our time for legislation.

On the controversy around GAAGO, I want to express my support for the position taken by the Tánaiste the other day calling for this matter to be reviewed. I heard the former president of the GAA, Mr. Liam O'Neill, speaking on the radio morning. He made a very valid point that there could be as many as ten or 15 major matches on every weekend and that it is not possible for RTÉ and TG4 to televise all of those matches. The solution to me seems to lie in making sure that the most popular and important matches are the ones that are on RTÉ and TG4 and to use GAAGO for the other matches.

We all understand that all matches cannot be televised. There is a potential win-win scenario here if we can identify the big matches to be televised on RTÉ and TG4, with other matches that would not otherwise be available being shown through the app. Let us allow RTÉ, TG4 and the GAA to talk about that.

Deputy Mattie McGrath asked about the nitrates directive. Let us not forget that we in Ireland have no entitlement to a derogation to the nitrates directive. We are one of only five countries out of 27 that have it. We are working hard to ensure we maintain that derogation. That means ensuring we satisfy what is required in the context of our water quality. That is the work the Government and the Minister are doing at the moment.

Deputy Matt Carthy

On a point of clarification, is the Taoiseach accepting that there will be a debate in respect of the agreement with the RAF or are we to take his word that it is legally compliant and in line with the constitutional obligation of the Government to bring international agreements before this House?

The Taoiseach

I am not proposing to have a debate on the matter.

Question, "That the Order of Business be agreed to," put and declared carried.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I wish to record my sadness at hearing of the passing of former Deputy Derek Keating. I did not realise he had died. I share our sympathies.

I want to return to the story of Micheline Walsh, a 78-year-old woman. The Taoiseach described the situation in which she and her husband find themselves as very sad. It is indeed very sad. The situation is also unacceptable and, in fact, it is outrageous that Micheline and her husband, people who have worked hard all of their lives, and 175 others over the age of 65 are living in emergency accommodation. People who should be enjoying their golden years are facing the prospect or the reality of homelessness. The Taoiseach disregarded a call in respect of the eviction ban and said that it would not have made any difference and would have stored up more problems but in the case of Micheline and her husband, the reality is that in a short couple of weeks, they will face homelessness. They have nowhere to go. They have been passed from pillar post by very nice people, they say, who work within the system. There is no answer for them. I raise Micheline's case because she has spoken out courageously and eloquently. However, I raise not only her case but also the circumstances of many others. For the over-65s, the seniors, people who have worked hard and contributed to our society and built our economy, where are they to go? Where will Micheline and her husband go in a few short weeks' time?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. As I said earlier, this is a sad case. We all sympathise with Micheline and her family. As the Deputy mentioned, there are approximately 100 or 200 people over 65 years of age in emergency accommodation. That represents approximately 2%, but it is still a lot. There are more than 100 people over the age of 65 in emergency accommodation. Many of those became homeless while the eviction ban was in place. The eviction ban did not cause homelessness to fall. It rose nearly every month in which the ban was in place. An eviction ban does not provide a solution but delays the point at which a solution can be found. As I said earlier, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, has been in touch with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to examine options, including the provision of social housing, the tenant in situ scheme, whereby the council could buy the property, or an alternative housing assistance payment, HAP, tenancy. More than 2,000 HAP tenancies have been created so far this year. It would be much better to have a solution in the next few weeks than to put off finding a solution for three or six months. I do not think that would be the best outcome.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Prices of groceries, food and basic commodities are rising, and workers are struggling. Yet many corporations are not supporting the struggles of their staff. Several Tesco workers who work on the front line in packing and delivering food to people in communities across the country have come to me to share stories of how their wages are being cut due to roster changes. One employee told me they will lose almost €3,500 per annum. That person does not know if they will be able to pay their mortgage because of this roster change. Meanwhile, these companies are reporting record profit margins. Roster changes are a common means of subtly reducing labour costs and workers' pay by companies behind the guise of efficiency.

On every side, with wages, food prices and the cost of housing taken together, we are seeing working people being squeezed for the sake of profit. In this month of May, as we celebrate workers' rights, it is time this Government stood up to big business and backed workers and their rights. Will the Taoiseach act to ensure greater security for workers in the face of mounting costs for basic necessities? Will he confirm that workers' voices will be heard at the upcoming retail forum?

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Neale Richmond)

The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney, and I engage with representatives of workers on a weekly basis. Deputy Bacik cited a report on rostering. A review has been put in place for banded hours for retail workers, following the report that was launched by Mandate six weeks ago. I met Mandate twice in respect of this matter, as well as employers in the retail sector. We will continue to work together to make sure workers in the retail sector are protected and they get the hours and salaries that they deserve.

Deputy Holly Cairns

There are more than 670,000 people in the country living in poverty, including 190,000 children. The number of older people living in poverty has increased by 40% in the past two years alone. The poorest 10% of households spend almost half their income on food and energy. Whatever is left is spent on the extortionate housing costs. This is not sustainable. The energy companies are simply ignoring the Government's calls to lower prices. Nearly 25% of gas customers are in arrears. It is likely that supermarkets will ignore the Government's calls as well.

A meeting of the retail forum has been convened for tomorrow, but the Taoiseach is going into those talks without a crucial piece of information. None of the major supermarket groups publish their profits for their operations here. They tell us they are not profiteering, but they refuse to come clean about their profit margins. At the meeting of the retail forum tomorrow, will the Government ask the supermarket groups to finally come clean about their profits here?

Deputy Neale Richmond

I am looking forward to tomorrow's retail forum. There is going to be a frank exchange. I am delighted to see that the vast majority of retailers, beyond those who normally attend, have confirmed their attendance. We will be asking the sort of direct questions Deputy Cairns has alluded to, and we will be making it quite clear that where input costs have gone down, we expect to see prices go down at the supermarket tills for consumers. There is an awful lot that will be discussed tomorrow. There will of course be a follow-up meeting on 21 June and all the issues Deputy Cairns raises will be raised.

Deputy Holly Cairns

Will the Minister of State ask about profits?

Deputy Neale Richmond

Yes.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The case of Micheline and her husband should bring shame on this Government for its treatment of older people and for not being able to provide them with somewhere to live. Another issue in the same area of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown is the treatment of children in families who are being made homeless at the moment. On Friday, I scrambled around with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council for a family with two children who were made homeless. They were sent to a hostel in town, miles away from where the kids go to school. The father, who works in disability services, walked into the hostel, took one look at it, said he would not bring his children anywhere near this place and walked back out again. That is what is happening to people with children and families at the moment. Another family is facing the bailiffs this week. In both cases the council is trying to work to resolve these situations, and I pay credit to it, but what this highlights is-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The time is up.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----we have children who are being put into situations that are simply not acceptable.

An Ceann Comhairle

The time is up.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

What is the Government going to do to prevent this continuing?

The Taoiseach

The underlying cause of the problems that we face is a lack of housing. There is a major housing shortage and a lack of social housing in particular. Until we address the deficit, close it, and build the additional housing we need, and the additional social housing we need, unfortunately, these problems will continue to arise. Temporary solutions are not solutions.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

We need solutions temporarily.

The Taoiseach

That means building a lot more social housing, which is what we are doing all over the country.

Deputy Seán Canney

Local authorities are preparing lands for the residential zoned land tax. An issue that is coming up a fair bit right across all local authorities is that functional farmers who are drawing entitlements fear for their existence because they feel this tax will be imposed on them at a rate of 3% of the development value. There are other farmers whose land is zoned R2. This is also known as phase 2 land, and it cannot be developed until phase 1 land is used up.

Will the Government please make a statement to clarify that no functional farmer will be liable for the land tax and that phase 2 lands will not be subject to the tax unless they become phase 1 lands? Clarity is crucial for people right across the country.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Kieran O'Donnell)

I thank Deputy Canney. This is a matter of which we are very conscious. We want active farmers to be able to continue to farm. As the Deputy is probably aware, if under residential zoned land tax arrangements a farmer wanted residentially zoned land to be dezoned, it would be considered not included in respect of the tax. Farmers up and down the country appealed to An Bord Pleanála up to 1 May. We are very conscious of the phasing of the zonings, and our Department is considering it actively.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The situation regarding home helps and the provision of home help is appalling all over the country, but especially in south Tipperary and west Waterford. I have been dealing with the case of a constituent of the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, namely a 92-year-old man from Tooraneena who had home help provided by a gentleman through Home Instead. That gentleman has now decided to move to the HSE but the HSE will not allow him to keep caring for the person. I have engaged with the Dungarvan team and it has been very helpful, but it just does not have the staff. Answers are trotted out here to the effect that there are heaps of money but the Government knows better than I do that the staff are not available. It is shameful to see elderly people in these circumstances. With a little home help, they could be kept out of hospital, with all that entails, including costs. The man in question is not recovering well. Can the Taoiseach or the Minister of State please do something meaningful in this case? Those involved have been in touch with the office of the Minister of State as well. We encounter these cases hourly in our offices. Every day of the week, people cannot get home help. A little is all they want but they cannot get it.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)

I thank the Deputy for the question. As I stand here today, 56,000 people the length and breadth of the country will have received home care. At the moment, approximately 3,200 people funded for home care cannot have the service delivered to them because we do not have the staff. Approximately 3,000 people have a partial supply. We are challenged at the weekends, especially in rural areas. We are working on it. I was provided with a budget of €723 million this year. We have extended eligibility for work permits to those outside the EU. One thousand permits were allocated in January of this year. To date, 56 people have come into the country, but we expect much more to happen during the summer. We are trying everything we possibly can. The new tender we are working on concerning private providers will mean that, with respect to every private hour now provided, the private providers will have to pay the living wage and travel time to each person who works for them. We hope that will also make a difference.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I want to stay with the theme of homelessness, in the context of Galway city. The Taoiseach's comment that homelessness is a stain on society is a self-serving myth. It is a stain on the policies of successive governments, including the current one. The Taoiseach said we should ensure people do not experience homelessness for too long and get them in and out. The difficulty in Galway is that those affected cannot even access homeless services; they simply cannot get into them. Simon Communities of Ireland, in its regular quarterly report, Locked Out of the Market, states there is no rented accommodation under the housing assistance payment arrangements, discretionary or otherwise. We have a major crisis. Could the Minister of State acknowledge the facts on the ground? When will we ever see a report from the task force in Galway, which was set up more than three years ago because of a housing crisis? Not a single report was produced.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

In fairness, the Deputy has raised the homelessness report for Galway. It is a matter we want to see expedited.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

The housing report.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The housing report in Galway. We want to see that particular report expedited. We gave a commitment during the last session of parliamentary questions on housing that we would follow up on it. I will follow up on it again. We want to see the report published.

On homelessness, the Department is working with all the local authorities to ensure adequate accommodation is available for people who are made homeless. More particularly, we want to keep them in their homes under the tenant in situ scheme and various other schemes through Galway city and county councils.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

While I agree with the principle of the residential zoned land tax, is the Government aware that as currently constituted, that tax could have profound implications for many farmers. I am talking about genuine farmers many of whose families have farmed the land for generations. They are not interested in availing of the uplift in financial terms caused by rezoning. In fact, they have not asked for their lands to be rezoned, but if the legislation as currently drafted is implemented, it will inevitably result in many of those people being driven out of farming because there is no way they are going to be able to support themselves and pay the tax from the income they hope to derive from farming. Does the Government have any proposals to modify the Bill to avoid a consequence that must surely have been unintended?

The Taoiseach

The short answer is “Yes”. This tax was introduced to penalise people who were hoarding land during a housing crisis. It now appears to be affecting 100 or possibly 200 landowners who are not land hoarders. They are farmers who have sought de-zoning, which has been refused in some cases by An Bord Pleanála. As Deputy Canney mentioned earlier, the issue of R2 zoning arises where somebody's land is zoned residential but he or she cannot develop it even if he or she wanted to because of the way the development plan is written. I spoke to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage; the Minister for Finance; and the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform about this last week. We do accept that anomalies have arisen in cases where somebody has sought a de-zoning or where it is R2 land and we do want to fix it. It may require a change in primary legislation to do so. We should have an answer in the next couple of weeks.

Deputy Pa Daly

We have seen a growing trend of assaults inside prisons. There has been a 46% increase in assaults on prison officers and a 52% increase in assaults on prisoners by prisoners. There have also been revelations regarding prison conditions and overcrowding with more than 200 prisoners sleeping on mattresses.

In a similar vein, last August, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions wrote to the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform telling him that its resources were stretched, that there was significant underfunding in attempting to deal with the increasing caseload, including financial corruption cases, and that there was a danger that prosecutions could be compromised. Does the Taoiseach accept that after a decade's worth of Fine Gael justice Ministers, the responsibility lies with his party? What does he propose to do about it?

The Taoiseach

I utterly condemn and express my revulsion at the attack on a prison officer the other day. It was really shocking and I hope he makes a speedy recovery. Our thoughts and prayers are with him and his family. Nobody should be subjected to assaults or violence in the course of their work. I know it can happen in uniformed services and other places but it does not make it any less horrific or unacceptable and our thoughts are very much with him and his colleagues today.

The Minister for Justice, Deputy Harris, attended the conference of the Prison Officers' Association last week where he outlined our plans to provide additional prison places not because we want to increase the incarceration rate - we do not - but because our population is growing and, therefore, we need new prison places.

Funding for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions has been increased to €56 million this year from €51 million last year and €42 million five years ago, so every year, more resources have been provided under this Government and previous governments. Obviously, there will be discussions about next year as well.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The Taoiseach said he agreed with the Tánaiste that the decision to broadcast GAA championship games on a pay-per-view basis such as GAAGO needs to be reviewed. Does the Taoiseach also agree with the Tánaiste that all these games should be free to air? What proposals does the Government have for engagement with the GAA and other stakeholders? I understand the Minister of State with responsibility for sport is having a necessary meeting with sporting organisations about conduct, ongoing violence against officials and dealing with racism. All this is very necessary. Will the Minister of State also have an engagement with the GAA and later with RTÉ and all the necessary stakeholders to reach a solution?

As Dónal Óg Cusack said, we need to provide oxygen, particularly for hurling. Liam O'Neill said, as the Taoiseach noted, better choices need to be made.

The Taoiseach

The Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, is responsible for media. She is doing some work on the list of fixtures that are free to air. It is not decided yet but she should be able to conclude it in the next couple of weeks. As I mentioned earlier, what the former uachtaráin of Cumann Lúthchleas Gael, Liam O’Neill, said to me this morning made a lot of sense. Yes, it would be great if all matches could be free to air, but when there are 15 major matches every weekend, and that is just GAA never mind all the other sports, it is probably not practical for everything to be free to air. Therefore we should try to identify the main matches or fixtures and make sure that they are the ones on RTÉ and TG4 and then allow GAAGO and other means to be used for those matches that would otherwise not be televised. That may be where the solution lies.

Deputy Richard Bruton

As interest rates continue to rise and borrowers are coming under very severe pressure, it is very noticeable that the net margins of banks are also growing significantly. Yesterday the stock value of one Irish bank rose by just 4% in just a day. Would it be timely for the Government to review consumer protections and to sit down with the Central Bank, the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman and the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission to review consumer protection in financial services?

The Taoiseach

I have discussed this with the Minister for Finance. I have an engagement once a year with the Central Bank governor. Deputy Bruton’s point is very valid. Rising interest rates should not be used by banks as an opportunity dramatically to increase their profits. If interest rate increases are passed on to mortgage holders then they should also be passed on to depositors and I am not sure that has been happening. It might be timely for us to do exactly that.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Following on from that, the issue of hard-pressed mortgage holders has been raised here repeatedly in recent weeks by myself and others. Their plight cannot go unnoticed and we need to respond. An appropriate response would be to allow viable mortgage holders to transfer their mortgages back to one of the pillar banks or allowing a mechanism like the local authority home-loan scheme to offer these customers a fixed mortgage product which, unfortunately, they cannot avail of now. Can the Taoiseach confirm that the Government is considering such proposals or that, at the very least, the regulator is, as worried mortgage holders seek much-needed relief?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. I am aware of a number of people whose mortgages are with non-bank lenders who are facing very high interest rates. It is 8% or 9% in some cases. I understand that it is relatively easy to switch if a person has equity in the property and a good payment record. They can switch back or switch to another bank where they might get a lower rate but that will not always be the case, particularly where people may have had a period where they were not paying their mortgage, often through no fault of their own, having lost their jobs. The Minister for Finance is very seized of this and is very sympathetic. He is working out if there are targeted solutions that might help in those cases.

Deputy Carol Nolan

A county-by-county comparison complied by Nursing Homes Ireland has shown clearly that there are significant price differentials between private and HSE-run nursing homes. The extensive analysis reveals that, for example, in County Offaly the price per week of a HSE nursing home as of January was €1,959 while private nursing home fees were over €900 less, starting at €1,009. In County Laois, the situation is even more striking. HSE nursing homes there are charging an average of €2,585 per week compared with €1,039 for a privately run facility. Will the Taoiseach direct the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, to engage immediately with the HSE to investigate this matter as there needs to be access to a level playing field for all, regardless of whether it is a private nursing home or a HSE nursing home? People should not feel they are being ripped off.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank the Deputy for her question. It is great to get the opportunity to put a little balance on the question. Some 22,500 people per year are supported in Ireland with nursing home care under the Fair Deal. Some 18,000 of those beds are owned by private nursing homes and 4,500 come under the HSE nursing home units which are the old county hospitals, as we all know them.

The HSE will always be the provider of last resort. For a nursing home that would not be in a position to provide, for example, the acute care an older person might need, and this would be some of them, not all of them, we must have HSE-run hospitals for older people that at times provide a different level of support, and they have to be staffed accordingly.

At 3.30 p.m. today I will be meeting with the National Treatment Purchase Fund, which comes under my remit, to discuss supports. This year alone, €41 million extra has been provided to support nursing homes. During the Covid-19 pandemic, €145 million was provided for temporary assistance payments. To date, private nursing homes still receive free personal protective equipment and oxygen.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are two questions now left. With the co-operation of the Taoiseach I will take the last two.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

Every day I come here, I leave Carlow town and I pass slip roads to the motorway. These are chock-a-block with vans and cars that are left for the day while their owners carpool to go to work. I recently heard that the other day they had been fined for parking there. This was not done by Carlow local authority but our neighbouring one. We have no park-and-ride facilities in Carlow. These workers who get up early are being environmentally friendly in their decision to carpool. The more people who are encouraged to carpool, the fewer cars will be on the road. This will mean less traffic for everyone and reduced carbon emissions. I am urgently calling for funding to be provided to Carlow County Council for a park-and-ride system in north and south Carlow. We are rural Ireland. While I welcome all the cycle lanes and the bollards that are being put in place, we need park-and-ride facilities in rural Ireland to make sure we look after the people who go to work.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Last night, I attended a meeting of Reachability in Enniscorthy along with two colleagues, Senator Malcolm Byrne and Deputy James Browne. It is a section 39 facility and, as we all now know, our section 39 facilities are very vulnerable. They are not entitled to the same funding as section 38 facilities. The staff are being depleted by section 38 facilities and the HSE. They are just poaching the staff left, right and centre. We do know, however, that they are subject to the same rules under HIQA. The families, the service users and the staff and management pleaded last night for us to stop and look at section 38 and 39 entities and bring them into line with one another to stop them haemorrhaging staff. The facilities will close and we have a very grave dependence on section 39 facilities to provide services to the most vulnerable in our society. What proposals are in place?

The Taoiseach

On Deputy Murnane O'Connor's question, the case for park-and-ride in Carlow is very strong and sounds like a very good idea. We want to encourage people to use the bus and the train. If you live in a rural area, it is not practical for you to walk or cycle to the bus stop or the train station, so park-and-ride facilities make a lot of sense. I will let both the Minister, Deputy Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, know about the suggestion the Deputy has made. I imagine she has told them already-----

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I have.

The Taoiseach

-----but if she has not, I will make sure they know.

On section 39 and section 38 facilities, we are moving some section 39 facilities into section 38 status. These are hospices. However, it is not straightforward. Section 39 organisations tend to own their own property, have their own pension funds and often have salaries that are out of kilter with public sector salaries. They are sometimes higher and sometimes lower. Some staff have opposed transfer when we get into the detail of it. Section 39 organisations are very diverse. Some receive almost all their funding from the State and are effectively public providers of public services. Others do not; they have a mix of public, private and charitable revenue. It is never straightforward. However, I understand the points the Deputy is making.