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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Jan 2006

Classification of Beef Carcases: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Tom Keating, Mr. Ignatius Byrne and Mr. Luke Mulligan, from the Department of Agriculture and Food who are here to make a presentation on the electronic classification of beef carcases.

Before asking Mr. Mulligan to commence his presentation I draw witnesses' attention the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege the same privilege does not extend to the witnesses. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Mulligan may now proceed with his presentation.

Mr. Luke Mulligan

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to address the committee. I am head of the meat policy division in the Department of Agriculture and Food. I am accompanied by Mr. Ignatius Byrne, head of the livestock division and Mr. Tom Keating, inspector with responsibility for beef carcase classification.

Under EU rules every meat plant slaughtering an average of more than 75 cattle per week is obliged to classify carcases. Prior to 2004 Department officials classified the beef carcases. Since the move to mechanical classification our role has been reduced to supervision, which is quite a weighty responsibility.

In 2003 the Commission introduced regulation EC/1215/2003 which created precise technical standards for the machine to be used. Mr. Keating will explain how that happens and what the operators do with the machines.

The regulation also specified the authorisation tests the Commission must approve before they are introduced. Ireland was the first of the EU member states to carry out these authorisation tests, and did so in late 2003. They were supervised by a Commission-approved panel of experts comprising two officials from Ireland and three from other EU member states. All the machines tested met the requirements.

In 2004, 24 meat plants, accounting for almost 95% of our beef exports, implemented the new system. France conducted tests in October 2005 and Germany and Denmark are watching the situation with a view to introducing a similar system. This was mooted first within the partnership arrangement and was introduced as part of Sustaining Progress. It was agreed with the support of farmers, producers, meat plants and the Department. A further round of partnership discussions is due to take place. The benefit is that the change represents the successful use of very sophisticated technology - which the committee will appreciate when Mr. Keating gives his presentation - in bringing a high level of accuracy, combined with objectivity and transparency, to the process of beef carcass classification. The results will assist the industry in producing and processing quality beef that best suits the high quality markets to which we currently export, basically the UK and continental EU.

As the competent authority, the Department is required to carry out fortnightly inspections on the machines in the first year of operation, and in 2005 we substantially exceeded those inspections. We see it as our responsibility to ensure the machines continue to operate to the standards laid down, whatever the requirement may be. The inspections to date show the machines are continuing to operate to the standards set down in the EU regulation. Mr. Keating will go through the presentation.

Mr. Tom Keating

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address this topic. Beef carcass classification was introduced in the early 1980s and was primarily used for beef going into intervention. In the early 1990s the classification system was extended to all animals from export plants. It is the responsibility of the industry, the operators, to comply with the regulations as laid down and to ensure classification takes place where required under the regulations. Beef carcass classification is now used as a basis for pricing and trade.

The beef carcass classification system covers conformation. To designate conformation we use the letters E, U, R, O and P, with E indicating the best conformation and P the worst. For fat we use a scoring system from one to five, with one indicating the least fat and five indicating the most fat in terms of the cover on the carcass. Classification also covers the sex category - whether it is a bull, a young bull, a steer, a heifer or a cow. That is important for classification purposes.

Our inspectors, the people carrying out checks in the meat plants around the country, also check to ensure carcass weights are being recorded correctly. On occasion they test carcasses to ensure this is done. Our inspectors also look at carcass dressing, or the trim of the carcass, to ensure it is done in accordance with the regulations.

Conformation assessment can be carried out by human visual appraisal or by a machine, which we would describe as a more objective system of classification. As I noted, there are five main classes of conformation, going from E down to P. Each of those main classes can be further subdivided into subclasses. For example, for main class U, one can have U plus, which is nearly an E, which is very good; or U middle or U minus. Accordingly, for each of the five main classes we also have three subclasses. Totalling all of those, the classification for conformation can be divided into a 15-point scale. That is much more precise than simply using the five points.

Fat assessment is also included in classification of carcasses. This is the amount of fat on the outside of the carcass and in the thoracic cavity. It is determined subjectively by human and visual appraisal, or can be determined more objectively by a machine. The incremental scale goes from one, which is the leanest or least fat, up to five, the most fat. As with the conformation score, each scale can be subdivided into three subclasses. In the slide provided, these go from three minus to three middle to three plus, giving us a potential total of a 15-point scale for fatness.

I mentioned carcass dressing at the outset. This is included in the requirements under EU regulations. Channel fat is removed, cod mammary fat where appropriate can be removed, kidney fat is removed and the thick and thin skirt is removed. However, no external fat should be removed by the operators prior to weighing the carcass, and the neck muscle must be attached. Accordingly there are strict rules laid down for dressing or trim as it is more commonly known. Our inspectors check this aspect when they visit the plants to carry out overall classification inspections. The slaughter plants must adhere to the standard dressing requirements on all carcasses. Department officials will check this on their unannounced inspections.

Manual classification still exists in certain plants, perhaps where the throughput is low and machine purchase cannot be justified because such machines are quite expensive. Accordingly we still have a certain level of manual classification. All manual classification must be carried out by licensed classifiers. These are people in the plants, paid by the plants, and licensed by the Department to classify animals. Historically, manual classification uses a seven-point scale for conformation and for fat. For conformation, main classes E, U or O are used, with the P, indicating worst conformation, subdivided into P plus, P middle and P minus. This is the historical way in which plants have been classifying carcasses up to this point. The fat scores are one, two and three, with fat score four subdivided into three subclasses, four L, which designates four low, four M for four middle and four H for four high. There is a main class five.

With regard to control of classification by Department staff, we carry out unannounced visits every six weeks by means of a national standards panel. That panel is made up of Department staff, and the visit involves more than one person to ensure there is no substantial bias introduced to the classification of carcasses. In other words, the panel has tried to introduce a countrywide standard, linked to an EU standard, for the classification of carcasses. Where necessary, follow-up inspections and unannounced visits are carried out by the local supervisor or officer. On occasion there are also visits from an EU control committee, which visits all member states in an effort to ensure all classification is carried out in a uniform manner across the European Union.

I will now deal with mechanical classification. A video camera takes a picture of a carcass and the video image is analysed by a computer and it uses the dimension of the carcass, the areas, volumes, angles, colour and so on to determine the classification, which includes confirmation and fatness. It also has the potential to measure saleable meat yield. The mechanical classification system must be as good as the average classifier. In other words, it must be as good as human appraisal, if not better. A Commission regulation lays down stringent requirements on the authorisation of mechanical classification systems. In November 2003, we carried out tests on three different machines for classification purposes which were from Australia, Denmark and Germany. All three machines passed the authorisation requirements, but the industry focused on the German machine, which is now used in the 24 plants that use mechanical classification.

Mechanical classification is a system of objective measurement. What one gets in Donegal is the same as one gets in Cork or Kildare if the same carcass is classified in these areas. It is authorised to be at least as accurate as human classification. It is cost effective for the plant as its owners have to pay for the classification and the machine can do this on an ongoing basis, as opposed to having a classifier constantly classifying animals. The mechanical grading system utilises a 15 point scale for both confirmation and fat score. The manual classification was using a seven point scale for both confirmation and fatness. This mechanical version increases the accuracy of the classification of animals. It also has the potential to measure meat yield.

Overall, the industry welcomed this development, including the producers and the plant operators. In 2005, the Department intensively monitored the operation of those machines. The standards panel is composed of more than one person to ensure uniformity of approach when classifying animals. There were 195 visits in 2005 and 15,500 carcasses were classified and compared with machines. The Department's supervisory officers carried out 564 inspections in 2005, comparing 40,000 carcasses against the machine classification. Overall, the machines are performing in a satisfactory manner.

There are variations in classification, such as breed, sex, weight, age development and diet. These variations can occur from year to year, month to month, quarter to quarter and so on. The 2005 classifications for both confirmation and fat score were substantially carried out by the machines. In 2001, 42.4% of steers were classified as grade R. This changed to 47.7% in 2002, 51% in 2003, 50.9% in 2004 and 45.7% in 2005. It decreased in 2005, but it went up in 2002 and 2003, which means that there is variation, depending on the animals that are available. This might be explained by the high level of calves exported in 2003, which could have impacted on the classification results of animals in 2005. The confirmation score for grade O was 48.3% for 2001, decreasing in 2002 and 2003 to 35.5%, remaining the same in 2004, while in 2005 it increased to 41.2%. From looking at the figures for 2004 and 2005, it would appear that the number of grade R carcasses has decreased by 5%, while the number of grade O carcasses has taken up that slack. As the machine classification uses a 15 point scale for classification purposes, this means that it is more accurate for those particular confirmation scores than human classification. Steer fatness can also vary from year to year. In 2005, we see an increase in the leanness of carcasses. There are fewer fat carcasses out there for steers. If we compare heifer confirmation for 2004 with 2005, we see the scores are nearly identical, with a score of seven in 2004 and six in 2005. The grade R score in 2004 was 58.5%, which changed to 56.5% in 2005. The grade O score went from 32.1% in 2004 to 33.5% in 2005. This demonstrates that variation exists.

The machine classification in 2005 covered about 85% of all carcasses that were classified in the export meat plants. There has been intensive monitoring by the Department in 2005 and the performance overall has been satisfactory. The Department will continue to monitor and review the position in 2006.

Does Mr. Byrne want to make a contribution?

Mr. Ignatius Byrne

Not at the moment. I am prepared to answer in detail on questions that may be asked. Mr. Keating has done a good job of presenting the broad outline of the issue without confusing the committee with too much detail.

Thank you. I call Deputy Naughten

I thank Mr. Mulligan, Mr. Byrne and in particular Mr. Keating for their presentation, which was extremely informative in outlining the current situation. One question I intended to ask was answered towards the end of the presentation, namely, that concerning the variation in the mechanical classification from last year to this year. The last quarter of last year is the only period we can currently use as a comparison. There was a 25% reduction in U grades over that period. In their contribution, the witnesses stated that the machines are operating in a satisfactory manner overall. Why are the witnesses not stronger on this issue? Why did they not state that the machines are more than satisfactory? Do concerns remain about the operation of mechanical grading? For example, did major discrepancies or problems with the system arise during the inspections that took place in 2005? The last quarter of 2005 is the first period which we can compare with the previous year. There is concern that there has been a fall-off in the grades for higher priced animals, when compared year on year. It is an issue of which we need to be conscious to ensure the integrity of the mechanical grading system.

The witnesses explained how mechanical grading works. They made the point that light is shone on the carcass and a video recording is made of this. How does this process assess the inside of the carcass dressing? Is the carcass halved in the first instance and examined from both sides or is only the outside examined? This point has been raised with members with regard to the level of trim that takes place. During the Department's inspections in the past 12 months, have difficulties been encountered with regard to the level of trim or breaches in the guidelines or regulations set down by the Department? Has any of the machines required recalibration during the past 12 months? If so, why did this happen?

The issue of carcass weight has been raised with me by a number of farmers throughout the country. The Department carries out its own independent random inspections on carcass weights in factories. Are carcass weights checked against the weight on the documentation associated with the carcass or are they compared with the weight returned to the farmer? This is a critical question. On a related issue, has a farmer a right to see the tare that is put on the scales and a right to view the scales when the animal is being weighed in the meat plant.

I thank Mr. Keating, Mr. Byrne and Mr. Mulligan for making their presentation simple, straightforward and easy to follow. I am one of those who have considerable faith in machines when they are properly managed and calibrated, and checked at regular intervals. Broadly speaking, we must accept that subjectivity is removed by the use of machines and it is a matter of ensuring that the machine is doing its job correctly by checking calibration and so on. I presume there is no difficulty in this instance and that regular calibration checks take place to ensure the machines are working accurately.

Deputy Naughten referred to an area where subjectivity might arise, namely, in the preparation of the carcass. Am I correct in thinking that the same situation would have prevailed when there was manual inspection of the preparation and dressing of the carcass? The witnesses might comment on this point.

I believe broader information can be gleaned from the information provided by the mechanical grading. For example, the data outlined in the presentation with regard to steer fatness from 2001 to 2005 shows an increase from 17.9% to 51.6% in grade 3, the most commonly occurring classification, which seems positive. Can further information be derived from this background information in terms of the changes that have taken place over those years? The witnesses referred to factors such as nutrition, which could be significant. Is wider information available to the beef producer which could be used to discover why changes took place? The data presented to the committee also suggests a significant difference between 2001 and 2005 in grade 2, which resulted in an increase from 2.8% and 10.3%. What factors have driven these changes? There may be a simple explanation but I am curious to know if wider information could be derived from this data that could be used effectively by the beef producers.

I thank the delegation members for their presentation. This is an issue that politicians hear about occasionally, sometimes more often than one would like. I know of a farmer who would normally kill 100 heifers a year in the same factory. His heifers weigh out at approximately 420 kg on average at an age of 25 or 26 months. He is a good farmer, who knows how to feed his cattle and knows exactly the type of cattle he has. He normally kills a run of 24 cattle, including perhaps 17 or 18 U grade cattle. He was satisfied until the last time he killed his cattle, when he was told he had three U grade cattle and 21 R, R minus and O grade cattle. He was very disappointed with the result and had good reason for this as it made a difference of €1,000 to him. I was amazed to discover that no appeals system is in place for a farmer in that situation - one who knows his business and what he is doing. Is any system available so that farmers slaughtering animals on a regular basis, who know their business, have some way of asking for a second opinion? At present, no second opinion is available and the farmer must accept the machine's reading. This is not good enough for farmers whose livelihoods are dependent on a machine, which hopefully is functioning properly but may not be.

I am interested to hear the answer to Deputy Naughten's queries in regard to farmers' rights in the meat factories and whether they are entitled to view the weights and scales and see the tare that is on the scales before the cattle are weighed.

Mr. Keating referred to inspections which saw 40,000 carcasses compared against the machine classification. Were they checked against the manual grades? Like Deputy Naughten, I am not sure that the machines are working in a satisfactory manner. What percentage of the 40,000 cattle that were machine tested differed from cattle that were manually tested? What is the reason behind the fall in the numbers of animals achieving the higher grade? The chart before us shows that the number of animals achieving this grade has fallen. This has led to farmers' lack of confidence in the factory business. When an animal is graded by machine, must the result be manually entered by a clerk or another individual? Is there any room for doubt in this area?

I apologise for my late arrival. Like other members, I thank the delegation for its presentation. I will not rehash previously raised issues but I look forward to hearing the answers to questions that have been raised. One speaker noted that machines are possibly the answer but a machine is only as good as the manner in which it is calibrated or the information that is fed into it.

There is overall acceptance in the farming community that it is preferable to use machine grading as opposed to individual grading. However, farmers have concerns, particularly at the moment when there is competition in the beef trade which results in a better price for farmers. Farmers sell their cattle to factories in two ways. The first involves selling cattle using a flat rate system and the second involves using a graded system. There is a suspicion among farmers that factories are manipulating this to their advantage rather than farmers' advantage.

For example, a farmer might sell his cattle in two lots. He sells the first lot using a graded system but finds that he has many more Ps than Os, which he finds amazing because he feels that his cattle are of a higher quality. He sells the second lot using a flat rate system but it turns out that the factory has many more Os than Ps. This suspicion among farmers that factories are manipulating the process to their own advantage must be addressed.

What penalties are imposed on factories if inspectors find that they are guilty of these practices? Have inspectors found evidence of such practices in factories? Are farmers compensated if it is discovered that they have been put at a disadvantage by factories using these practices?

Some farmers appear to have difficulty following the grading process. They find it difficult to match x-ray photographs of particular carcasses to animals. I am not sure if the system could be made easier to operate but these are some of the complaints I have received.

I thank the officials from the Department for giving us a very clear outline of the system. As one who spent a considerable period of time in discussions surrounding the establishment of the manual grading system, I am aware of all the difficulties associated with it. Farmers spoke about the standard of grading and how one would be lucky to do business with certain graders who were very competent. While there may still be some questions about the new system, I do not hear the same number of questions concerning individual graders that I did previously.

The main problem facing farmers is the fact that factories now control grading. This is why the issue of calibration and how it can be guaranteed is so important. The same situation arises in smaller factories where the factories pay the licence classifiers. Under the previous scheme, this was carried out by so-called independent Department officials. I do not say this with any malicious intent. There appears to be a slight decrease in quality. A possible explanation for this is that the better quality cattle were exported as weanlings two years ago.

Has the Department encountered many problems with the level of trim? How often was it forced to challenge factory owners or their personnel about it? I echo Senator Coonan's question in asking whether there are any penalties for factory owners found guilty of unacceptable practices?

Previously, personnel from the IFA, with which I am most familiar, and possibly other organisations were trained in classification and met and discussed appeals with Department personnel. While there is no appeal as such, is there any such mechanism to ensure the system is working as well as it should be? Do independent personnel, in addition to Department personnel, double-check that machines are calibrated and that independent licence classifiers are working properly? Like Senator Scanlon, I heard of a case where a very good operator was extremely angered by the grades he received in a particular factory. I contacted personnel in the Department who were extremely helpful and agreed to investigate the case. Neither side told me the outcome of the investigation so I assume a solution satisfactory to both sides was arrived at.

Mr. Keating

With regard to the satisfactory operation of the machines, the authorisation trial uses specific criteria for the performance of the machines set down by an EU regulation. Each of the three machines exceeded the criteria during the authorisation phase. During the authorisation trials of the machines, the statistical measure known as concordance was slightly less than 80%. This means that the machines operated very well. It is slightly more accurate for confirmation than it is for fat but overall the concordance was approximately 80%.

So is it slightly more accurate from a security perspective?

Mr. Keating

We carry out systematic checks to ensure this concordance is maintained. These checks are carried out by the standards panel and Department officers who visits plants. Approximately 750 different visits and 55,000 independent checks of carcasses took place over the last 12 months, which is a fairly intensive monitoring of the system.

The system is a 15-point scale so it is much more precise than the old system. Going from one major class to another can involve going from a U minus to an R plus very easily because they are using this very precise 15-point measurement scale.

Mr. Byrne

I will build on Mr. Keating's comments to further clarify matters. The question has been raised as to how certain the Department is that the machines are working satisfactorily and how farmers can be reassured, which is a fair question. As Mr. Keating said, we compared the performance of the machines with the performance of manual graders 195 times in 2005. Is this not the issue the Deputy asked about?

No. I want to know whether the 40,000 machine cases were compared to manual graders. Were only 195 compared to manual checking?

Mr. Byrne

The 40,000 checks were done by supervisory inspections, lads floating through and checking. The real check that goes to Brussels is called the standard panel results, of which there were 195 on 15,000 carcasses in that year. Currently, standard panels consist of three classifiers outlined by the Department for examining carcasses and coming to conclusions on what the grades should be. The results gave a measure of satisfaction called the degree of concordance, harmony or agreement between the machine's results and the results of the average of the three classifiers. In every case, the degree of concordance was approximately 80%. The authorisation test required a concordance test of 60% and, hence, our conclusion is that the machines are operating satisfactorily.

Regarding the 40,000 carcasses checked by supervisory inspectors, we require each individual inspector to go to factories once or twice every two weeks on an unannounced basis on his or her own. If the inspector believes a particular carcass has gone off, he or she will check the label, take note if it is wrong and record it in a book. We will then go to the machine manufacturer. I am speaking about the very early stages and we must accept this new technology needed a bedding in period. At the beginning, there were teething problems. Life is like that, as nothing ever goes 100% on the day.

However, our supervision, as carried out by the five supervisory officers in the regions, is as intensive as we can make it. Mr. Keating and another assistant inspector bring that number to seven while an area superintendent brings the full number of staff to eight. As the head of division in charge of all of this and someone for whom the successful introduction of mechanical grading is a serious concern, I have paid regular attention to it over the past 12 months and will continue to do so. We must not have a drop in confidence in the machines.

The country had 54 classifiers for the past 20 years who ranged in age, and in experience from 20 years to 20 months. Some were at two months, as they all had to start young at some stage and be trained. Of the 54 people throughout the country, there were, of course, differences in the grades they gave. It is a subjective assessment. If one asked three different people whether a person is beautiful, they may come to different conclusions. Deciding whether a carcass is a U, R, O or P may differ depending on who examines it and how experienced is that person.

The machines give an objective classification. One gets the same result on a carcass of the same quality in County Donegal as in County Kerry. This is what the issue is all about, that farmers can have confidence that there is no difference in where they take their cattle. I accept we received complaints in the past about cattle doing better in one factory than another. For this reason, the industry, with the Department's support, set out the view that there should be only one machine. We did not want a German machine in one factory and a French or Danish machine in another. We have a uniform approach towards having one machine and hold regular inspections.

The results to date have delivered confidence in the system and we are continuing to engage with problem areas. A meeting of the supervisory officers will be held tomorrow morning in AIBP Cahir, County Tipperary, at which Mr. Keating and I will attend. We will meet with machine manufacturers and examine the finite details of the situations the committee has raised to determine whether we can put procedures in place to eliminate them and to stop farmers' ongoing concerns. Does the Deputy wish to comment?

Anybody who wants to comment can do so during supplementary questions. Does Deputy McCormack wish to respond?

Did the 195 comparisons between machines and manual graders take place in a single year?

Mr. Byrne

Yes, in 2005.

A total of 80% in one grade and 65% in another grade were satisfactory. That meant that between 39 and 45 animals would have different grades using the manual system when compared to the machine. As our constituents tell us - I include my family, which is involved in farming - due to the history of meat factories, it is very hard for farmers to have absolute confidence that grades cannot be manipulated according to the trade and demand at the time. It is difficult to accept that, according to the latest statistics, there has been a recent fall in the number of higher grades. We must get to a stage where farmers and producers will have confidence that, when they go into a factory, everything is above board and their cattle are getting the grades they deserve.

Mr. Byrne

Regarding the machines' settings in factories, it is like going to a hole in the wall with one's bank card in that one has a PIN number. While people can get around it these days, this means that only one person can withdraw money. We will assume we are dealing with respectable people. As such, the machines cannot be adjusted by a factory's management, only by the machine manufacturer after it has received the agreement of the Department's supervisory officer, Mr. Keating. The machines were calibrated in 2003 during the authorisation tests and these settings cannot be adjusted regardless of whether demand is poor or good.

How many factories operate the machines?

Mr. Byrne

A total of 24 factories operate machines.

Is that 100%?

Mr. Byrne

Only six or seven very small factories throughout the country operate the manual classification system. They have small throughputs of cattle. The total throughput of these small factories in a year is 190,000 tonnes, while the throughput of the export approved plants was 1.72 million tonnes last year. In our discussion with the IFA, it has always said that we should stay focused on the big picture, namely, the mechanical grading situation and the export group, about which the IFA is more concerned. I accept that a farmer approaching a rural Deputy in a small parish has a legitimate concern in the same way as anywhere else.

Mr. Byrne mentioned 80% concordance, which raises a question about the other 20%. What is the scale of variation in the 20% discordance?

Mr. Byrne

We do not have the figures here.

That is the critical point. Is concordance the same as accuracy? Are farmers being paid the accurate prices for 20% of animals being slaughtered?

Mr. Byrne

A report in the Irish Farmers’ Journal last week mentioned a drop in certain grades but not an increase in other grades. While we might see a drop in new grades, some of the grades are increasing.

The lower paid grades.

Mr. Byrne

Not all of the time. We are moving in the direction of providing annual reports divided into quarters with this information. In the recent past, a case occurred where the previous quarter's results were compared with the full year's results from a previous year. That is not comparing like with like. We addressed that issue in the Irish Farmers’ Journal. I have a copy of the annual report which we will publish shortly. All of the results will be presented for those who wish to see them. We believe the figures will stand up.

Does Deputy Upton wish to ask a question on that issue?

My question is on the calibration. Mr. Byrne stated that no one except the owner can change the machine. If that is the case, how frequently is a change in calibration required and how frequently is it applied? National standards demand that one should calibrate on a set timescale or at regular intervals.

It was stated that the annual report will be published soon. It is critically important that the Department produces a publication, even if it is a one page document, on a quarterly basis to show the trends. It is clear that there is not much point for the factories to state they will increase the price for U grade cattle if they know, from the statistics coming through their machines, that such cattle do not exist. It gives farmers a false expectation that they will receive a better price for U grade cattle when most cattle are graded either R or O. It is important that the material to which I refer be published on a quarterly basis. If a seasonal or annual variation exists, it is critically important that farmers receive the relevant information.

Is the 80% concordance across all of the grades or is there a variation between the grades from E to P? A lower concordance regarding fat has been acknowledged by the delegation. Does it vary across the scale as well as between scales?

The point was made that an animal brought in to Donegal will get the same grade as an animal brought in to Kerry.

Mr. Byrne

As long as it is of the same quality.

Yes. How can the Department stand over that policy if it does not check it? Does it take a carcass from Donegal to Kerry to check it? Will the Department consider taking carcasses from various plants where they have been graded and bringing them to other plants? If there is only 80% concordance, and less than 80% regarding fat, there is not much point using manual graders to verify the machine work correctly because 20% is a massive variation and it could lead, depending on the variance in settings from plant to plant, to a discrepancy. One small error will never show up. However, if one took the same carcass from one plant to another, discrepancies would immediately show up. Does the Department have any plans to take action in this regard?

What is the position regarding the right of farmers to access the video imaging analysis and in respect of providing them with a verification process if they feel aggrieved. The conversation centred around people who may feel aggrieved. Perhaps they are right in some cases. The fact is that a farmer will want to see justice being done. A small fee might be involved but it would be worth it if the farmer was proved correct where video imaging analysis shows another figure or, in a marginal case, where the figure should have led to a U grade rather than an R grade.

It was mentioned that the machines are owned by their manufacturers and they cannot be changed without the permission of Mr. Keating. Is that correct?

Mr. Byrne

Yes.

The machines were set up in 2003. Have those machines been checked since?

Mr. Byrne

I will address that issue now.

We will allow Mr. Byrne or Mr. Keating to respond to those questions.

Mr. Byrne

I will respond first. Many questions were asked.

I apologise for that. Perhaps it was not fair to have so many.

Mr. Byrne

It is difficult to give precise answers to all of the questions because a great amount of detail is involved. I have some responses and I ask members to excuse me if I do not answer all of the questions. In such circumstances, I ask them to put the questions again.

We shall return to them.

Mr. Byrne

With regard to whether image data analysis could be provided to the farmer, in cases where a farmer has a complaint he or she can telephone Mr. Keating. We have access to video imaging. We have a link to every factory in the same way as the manufacturer has and we can check that image and see whether the farmer has a complaint. A farmer might argue that he or she expected better from Charolais cross cattle. I am aware of one occasion where the image showed the animal was not of the breed which the farmer had stated. The farmer then agreed it was a Friesian cross instead of a Charolais cross. It takes time and we do not want every farmer to approach us. However, a small number of farmers are entitled to come to us if they need reassurance and grades to be checked. If it is done in time, we can send the supervising officer to the factory and check the carcass if it is still in the cold room. We will listen to people with complaints and run checks. That is the reason we are there.

We can also check the image. All images to date are stored. We will carry out further research and development into meat yield studies and we need the imaging to examine how the grading lines up. It is a separate matter and I do not want to confuse members.

I am alarmed to hear about the lack of appreciation for the high level of concordance. The figure of 80% is extremely satisfactory. It means that the results of the machine on average and the mean of three classifiers are in harmony and in full agreement. The question was asked whether that was the same as accuracy or precision. Members can make up their own minds but on 80 out of 100 occasions - the machine and the three classifiers were exactly in agreement.

The question was also asked on how many occasions are we one subclass out. We use a 15 point scale. A subclass is the difference between a grade of a U+ and a U= or an R+ and an R, or an R= and an R-. The important point-----

That is not the question I asked. That can easily happen. My question is whether the level of concordance in grade U the same as the level of concordance in grade P? Is there a variation between the grades and between the fat scales?

Mr. Byrne

The standards panel has checked 15,500 carcasses. The machine determines, for example, that 20% are grade R and 40% are grade O. They are analysed collectively. We do not carry out a separate analysis of each grade on its own. That is not how it works. Carcasses are graded, analysis is carried out and a result is given. That is the only way it can work. That is also how it was done manually. Each classifier in the seven small factories classifies a carcass. Every six weeks the standards panel carries out a random check on 80 carcasses and we compare the results of the standards panel with those of the licensed classifier. The degree of agreement is known as the degree of concordance.

We do not know which is more generous.

Mr. Byrne

I can tell the Deputy but I will be damned. We know that because of the 15-point scale the machine is more discriminating on quality. Through using grades such as U+, U= and U-, the machine can precisely place a carcass. In the past one would receive the benefit of the doubt from a human classifier and because a grade of R+ did not exist in manual classification, a grade of U was given. The machine indicates a certain number of U- and R+ grades, with a fluctuating borderline. Separating them out leads to a reduction in U grades because it is more discriminating in terms of quality. That is the reasoning behind the system, which farmers and industry find difficult to accept.

An educational programme is needed for farmers and IFA members who have concerns on this, as well as for Members of the Dáil, which should involve a visit to a factory on an open day to observe carcasses being classified both mechanically and manually. The grades may then be compared and those who think they can grade can be invited to step on to the floor to do so, in which case they will see the subjectivity involved in visual grading when compared to the machine's results. I cannot agree to this because I do not own the factories. Hygiene standards must be observed and vets may also have concerns but if people were properly dressed, a few could be allowed on the floor. Carrigans in County Donegal held an open day for farmers and I understand that a factory in the south did likewise because people, rightly, had concerns about the system and said that it involved black magic. We are trying our best to educate farmers but they and the IFA need to engage with the meat industry to reach agreement on an open day. I would welcome such a step because we want everybody to know exactly what is happening and how we operate.

In terms of publishing results so that farmers can see what is happening, I invite members to visit the Department's website. The quarterly figures are there and, when the December figures are posted, which will be as soon as I have a chance to examine them, full year results will be available. In addition, each of the 24 factories are listed separately. Anybody who supplied cattle to a particular factory in any of the past four quarters is invited to take the time to go through the data, although one could go blind by looking at all the figures.

I have answered as many questions as possible. Mr. Mulligan or Mr. Keating may have additional comments. While Mr. Keating is the man on the ground, I ask members to appreciate that he is the new kid on the block and has only been in the job since early November. It will take him some time to warm up, although he is doing very well thus far.

He has good people to advise him.

Mr. Keating

With regard to calibration, the Department has computer images on USB sticks. We can enter a factory, plug the stick into a machine and check whether the calibration has been interfered with over preceding weeks or months.

Concordance does not mean that 80% are completely accurate but that 20% are outrageously different. It is a statistical measure of the accuracy of the machines against manual classification.

The machine cannot measure trim or dressing. That is a different procedure. Licensed classifiers, who admittedly work for their respective factories, are responsible for checking that trim is done correctly. Our people made more than 700 visits in 2005 and one of the matters they check is whether trim is being carried out correctly.

The hot weight of a carcass is measured on the line and that weight, minus 2%, is listed on the farmer's invoice. The latter reduction accounts for the weight lost by the carcass, once chilled. It is an internationally accepted standard.

On farmers' rights to view scales, I have seen a cubby hole in at least one factory from where farmers are able to observe classifications as they are made.

That is if it the glass is transparent.

Mr. Keating

Yes, if the glass is cleaned. There is a slight difference between calibration and checks. Calibration refers to what is initially done with the machine to ensure that the animals passing through it are correctly classified. Daily checks are also carried out to determine whether the machine is operating correctly before it is set the task of classifying.

Who carries out that check?

Mr. Keating

The factory. I was asked whether the dressing is different for mechanical as opposed to manual classification. As the dressing is standardised in Ireland, there should be no difference between dressing in counties Donegal or Kerry. The type of classification, whether mechanical or manual, does not impact on it.

There can be variations in fat scores, just as animal weights can vary. This can depend on the breed, the AI bulls used, the nutrition of the animal or the demand for beef. For example, a farmer may decide to sell earlier than normal because the factories are paying better prices. That is a market-led decision which will impact on composition and fat. Many factors, therefore, influence the final figures.

Mr. Byrne referred to an appeals system. We are always open to reviews of our systems. With regard to the number of complaints, particularly later in the year, we had teething problems when we introduced the machines at the beginning of 2004 but the number of complaints made to the Department have almost fizzled out and very few are now being received.

The factory is not able to tamper with the machine classification. It is sent straight to a computer from the point of measurement and there is no facility to allow the factory operator at that stage to override what is written on the label. In terms of flat rate versus payments based on classification, the factory is also unable to interfere with the calibration of the machines and we carry out checks to ensure their integrity.

On the question of how a farmer can identify his or her animals on the line, carcasses are allocated numbers at the start of the line. These remain throughout the labelling, classification and weighing process, which involves an automated system. While the carcasses pass down the line at a fairly fast rate, it is in the factory's interest that they be identified correctly.

We carry out ongoing checks on licensed manual classifiers in factories. If there is a problem where manual classification takes place regulations allow us to withdraw a manual classifier's licence, after an appeal process has been exhausted.

Penalties are laid down in the legislation for infringements detected on trim so it is in everybody's interest to ensure trim is dealt with correctly. Overall there have not been major problems with trim, notwithstanding there may be complaints from time to time. We must remember that a veterinary supervisor may require some trimming of a carcass for hygiene purposes.

The question of independent people checking classification in factories is like asking who checks the checkers. Eventually we must be satisfied with the inspections and checks carried out. We have a standards panel composed of more than one person so a number of people go into factories to ensure manual classification is carried out in a uniform manner. We also have occasional visits from experts from different member states of the EU, just as experts from Ireland visit factories in other member states to ensure uniformity of classification of dressing systems and weighing systems, etc. Every effort is made to ensure uniformity. If other independent people would benefit the process the Department might consider it. Video imaging to the farmer might be possible.

This debate has been enormously valuable because it has provided a huge amount of background information and the material has the makings of a master's degree or PhD. Many correlations can be extracted from the data. The Department will have all the raw data as well as the summaries we have received, which are interesting. If we delve deeper and break them down into seasonal correlation, breed, sex, nutrition, etc., we will gain very valuable long term information. The short-term concern is for farmers to get a fair deal and Mr. Keating has explained the process but the long-term interest should be explored.

I will return to a couple of questions I asked earlier. In the process of carcass dressing how is fat determined in the internal cavity of an animal? The assessment seems to be external. Can Mr. Keating explain the mechanics?

I will ask a critical question on the presentation today, not on mechanical grading but carcass weight so if the delegates cannot give one now I ask them to provide an answer to the clerk of the committee at a later stage. Has a farmer the right to see a carcass being mechanically checked and weighed and to see the tear on the machine? I ask because at one plant last year the tear was completely out for at least three days. Only when one farmer who was at a mart decided not to sell his animals but brought them to the factory the following day was the massive variation in weights identified by the factory.

Is it possible for the mechanical classification process to pick up a discrepancy in weights? If an animal has a certain conformation and fat index a mechanical classification based on the size of the carcass should give the parameters of its weight. It can be done, if it is not being done at the moment, to ensure no such discrepancy arises. There is concern among farmers on weights. Mr. Keating said the Department visited factories unannounced to check carcasses for classification and weight. Is the label weight checked against the carcass or against what was given to the farmer?

Mr. Byrne

The issue of weight is hugely important. Deputy Naughten says the weighing scales in the factory did not tally with those in the mart but what evidence is there for that?

The factory admitted to it and paid the difference.

Mr. Byrne

The Department insists on regular checks to weights on scales. That is an ongoing requirement of factory management. A manager has a daily record book of specified checks he must carry out, which is inspected by our Departmental staff when they visit a factory. I accept the Deputy's point and if scales are wrong it is a great way to make money, nor is it tilted in a farmer's favour. In a court of law, however, one must produce evidence. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment sets national standards for checking weights and measures. They charge a fee for visiting factories a certain number of times a year as required. We have asked some factory managers when they were last visited and one told us he could not remember. It cannot have been in the previous 12 months and may have been longer ago. That issue might be pursued by other people.

We check weighing mechanisms as far as we can. When staff make their fortnightly visit they pull out 20 carcasses at random from the cold store and tell the manager to put them on scales to be checked. They check the weight on the label and compare it to the weight on the scales. It would be remiss of a factory manager to systematically manipulate scales because his chances of getting caught are high. Farmers are generally aware of the grade and weight of their cattle because they produce them to a particular market requirement.

Mr. Keating

There are distinct differences between fat scores and trim. Fat score is determined on the outside of a carcass, on a scale of fat score one up to fat score five, but the camera cannot measure what fat is on the inside of a carcass.

Taking fat trim from the inside of a carcass is totally different and must be observed visually by the officers. The tare weight, as discussed by Mr. Byrne, is due to sloppiness on the part of the factory. It is not the responsibility of the Department to be present in a factory every single day.

Will the mechanical classification pick up anomalies?

Mr. Keating

Yes, although clearly it cannot weigh the animal. If there is a large discrepancy between the weight fed into the classification machine and what it determines as the weight, a classification will not be produced and an error will be displayed. It will indicate that something is wrong. It is up to the licensed classifier on the premises to rectify the problem and classify the animal, if necessary.

Is the farmer entitled to see his or her cattle being weighed in a factory?

Mr. Keating

The farmer has to be furnished with the cold weight and the classification from the factory. In seeing this process, however, he or she is outside the remit of the classification regulations. I have seen a factory where a farmer can observe the reading on the weighing scales. I do not know if there are regulations relevant to this process but it is possible and I have observed instances. I suspect, however, such observance is at the discretion of the factory. Perhaps others might clarify the matter.

I was in a factory a few years ago where it was not possible to see the weights. I am sure this has not changed.

The farmer I have mentioned who felt aggrieved at the classification and weights of animals he had sent to the meat factory is a professional farmer and knows what he is doing. Is Mr. Byrne stating an image is kept electronically of every animal slaughtered in every meat factory?

Mr. Byrne

That process has begun in recent months. As we are now considering meat yield studies, the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation is looking to have the Department provide storage facilities. It has been carried out for approximately the past two months. What is the date of the case mentioned by the Senator?

It occurred approximately last September.

Mr. Byrne

Images would not have been recorded in that case. We had a problem in obtaining technology to store images. As far as I am aware, the procedure began in November.

If a professional farmer has a problem with results from the factory from now on, he can contact the Department and ask for the images to be checked.

Mr. Byrne

He or she could contact Mr. Keating.

I will get Mr. Keating's number before I leave.

We can contact Tom.

Mr. Byrne

It is like what is said on radio, "talk to Joe". We provide a quality customer service and accept that farmers have legitimate concerns regarding the cattle they are selling. They want to ensure they are getting the right price and that their animals are weighed and graded properly. That is not unreasonable. It is not for us to state otherwise to the joint committee. It is important to remember that factories are private enterprises which belong to private individuals. Departmental staff cannot order such individuals to allow farmers onto their property.

Farmers should engage with the industry through the IFA livestock committee if there is a problem. I do not believe there is, although the Chairman has stated there is. Windows are provided in certain places but there are standards to be maintained with regard to health, particularly those relating to diseases. Vets may not allow people in. Even if they are, they must be properly dressed in protective clothing. Despite this, most factory managers are committed to ensuring transparency in the system. If farmers are not happy with current operations, the industry should be engaged with. The Department should not be asked to provide guarantees that farmers will be present on factory floors. There may be difficulties in places in achieving this for veterinary or animal health reasons, because of other health and safety issues.

In general, there is more confidence in mechanical grading. However, there are still problems in certain areas at certain times. If it was known there was an avenue to have results verified, it would make many people happy.

Mr. Byrne

That would be a positive message which we wish to convey. We exist to check the operations of factories. It is up to us to reassure those who are concerned and we will do so as much as possible.

We are not comparing like with like. We are comparing the mechanical grading results from 2005 with the classifications produced in 2004 and other years. A balanced comparison will take the figures for 2006 into account in comparing machine-produced results. We must also take into account feeding, nutrition and breeds and quality of cattle. The number of weanlings exported to other member states should also be considered. Many quality weanlings are exported as calves to Italy, for example. If enough animals are exported, it will impact upon the numbers of grade U and grade R animals in Ireland two years from now, the time between an animal's birth and it being sent to the factory.

I agree with Deputy Upton that the information given by the delegates is valuable. Much can be learned from it and by drawing further information from the detailed data regarding breeds, etc. This may be useful in the future. When representatives of the Department inspect carcasses, is the label on the carcass?

Mr. Byrne

Yes, it is a crime to remove a label which must not be removed. If meat is to be sold on the Continent-----

In other words, one is aware of what the machine has labelled a carcass before an independent assessment is carried out.

Mr. Byrne

Every carcass must have a label; otherwise, it cannot be sold.

I was alarmed at the comment that the trim was dependent on hygiene-----

Mr. Byrne

Will the Deputy clarify what is meant by that?

It was stated the amount of trim was dependent on the level of hygiene required by a vet. It should be standard.

Mr. Keating

I stated the amount of trim or the dressing could vary at the request of a vet but it is not systematic variation. There is a variation in individual cases where a vet spots a tumour, for example, on a carcass. This is not systematic and only occurs at the request of a veterinary surgeon in particular cases where certain parts are required to be removed prior to weighing.

Mr. Byrne

I have a point to make on what the IFA livestock committee terms as "trim". We are examining this issue closely. When we met representatives of the committee on 10 November 2005, they expressed concerns that too much fat was being removed from carcasses. After the meeting I e-mailed all supervisory staff to make them aware of this concern and that we wished to check this issue over a period. The broad message I received was that the amount of trim was regularly checked. If enough is cut away, the meat will be of inferior quality and the farmer will be poorer as a result.

The way in which the neck is dealt with is the source of further concern. Occasionally personnel who may not be au fait with the process can make a mess of it. However, some 300 carcasses will not be dealt with in this way on one day. There is no systematic fraud, if one wants to use such a term. On occasion there will be a bad carcass or one which is improperly dressed, where the neck is not dealt with properly, for example. Attention would be drawn to that and there would be a record of it. We will meet staff again tomorrow and I will talk about nothing other than trim. From a farmer’s point of view we have gone from concerns about grading to major concerns about trim. I react to what people tell me. We are continuing to monitor the situation closely. If the industry knows I am on the tear and chasing after trim they will be careful. We regularly make unannounced visits. Anyone who wants to continue in business would be foolish to do otherwise, and I do not suggest any of them are.

I would like clarity on one point. The presentation slides show a picture of the conformation classes E to P and on the following page it is stated that the amount of fat on the outside of the carcase and in the thoracic cavity is assessed. How does one assess the amount of fat in the thoracic cavity if only the outer part of the animal is examined?

Mr. Keating

It cannot be done by machine. In manual classification the inspector can look at the inside and the outside of the carcase. Only the outside of the carcase can be examined by machine. That is perfectly fine once the machines are calibrated to use only the outside of the carcase. Once the calibrations are done correctly, and the indications are that they are done correctly, that would not be an issue. The conformation score system is somewhat better than if it were based on fat assessment alone.

Is that part of the reason for the variation?

Mr. Keating

I do not believe so. That is the way it is. One can look at the carcase, but trained and experienced classifiers tend to look mostly at the outside because they are doing it on a line with the carcases going past them fairly fast. They do not get the opportunity to turn every carcase on the hook. It is a skill that comes with experience. I mentioned the thoracic cavity because it is referred to as another indicator of fat in the guidelines issued to people starting out.

I thank the representatives. If members are of the view that we should visit a site and see grading in operation, we will ask the Clerk to the Committee to arrange that. There are factories very close to us in Kildare, Meath, Cavan.

And Roscommon.

Is there one in Dublin South Central?

There is one in Dublin.

And in Donegal.

Mr. Mulligan

I thank the Deputies and Senators. We have had a riveting discussion during which a good deal of information was exchanged and clarification given on both sides. What we wanted to do, and I hope we have done it, is persuade the committee that the system is good and that it is a significant improvement on the old one. Some Deputies referred to the fact that we had many more problems with the old system, and we tend to forget that. In the first year we were bound to flesh out many difficulties. These are huge machines. I recommend that members go to see them. They are very sophisticated but it is difficult to get across that level of sophistication without becoming too complex. The discussion here today went into complexities that I did not expect. We have regular meetings with the farm organisations on this issue, roughly on a quarterly basis, and all these issues have come up. As members can gather from the enthusiasm of Messrs Byrne and Keating, they deliver. The three of us meet the farm organisations and go through all these issues because what we want is a good, strong, efficient system on which we can rely from afar rather than somebody having to be present all the time. We have a valuable industry and we will commit to whatever level of checks are necessary in 2006. We went far beyond what was required in 2005 because it was the first year.

We produce more than 520,000 tonnes of beef and put more than 90% of that into the high value EU market. The customers in that market are discerning. They need this type of information. If it is available to us, they want it. Ultimately, prices are the way one can gauge matters. Prices are, on average, up 5% on prices in 2004 and 2005. Prices this week are up nearly 10% on prices in the same week last year. Overall, there is satisfaction with the system. We are satisfied with it. Our discussions with representatives of the farm organisations and the meat plants indicate that they are also satisfied with it. It was quite a difficult transition, even though it went smoothly in the end, but only due to the amount of effort put into it. I hope we have persuaded the members of that. If they want to check it for themselves or have any individual inquiries they can contact Mr. Keating, Mr. Byrne or me and we will assist them. If they want us to liaise with them with a view to a visit to a site, we will assist with that.

On behalf of the committee I thank Mr. Keating, Mr. Byrne and Mr. Mulligan for attending and responding to the questions raised by members. This has been a constructive and interesting meeting. Many issues were thrashed out. We thank the representatives for coming in and discussing them with us.

Is it agreed that we will go into private session as there are a few housekeeping matters we want to discuss?

Before we go into private session, I wish to record that I am disappointed that Meat Industry Ireland did not send a representative here today. It has been invited to attend on a number of occasions to make a presentation to the committee, but has failed to do so to date. Some of the questions put to Department of Agriculture and Food officials today should rightly have been put to Meat Industry Ireland. It is disappointing that it has again ignored this committee. We should express that disappointment to it. It is important to record that Meat Industry Ireland failed to come before this committee on every occasion it was asked to do so.

I concur with Deputy Naughten. I have requested over the past two years that representatives of that organisation come before the committee. We failed even to make contact with it for many months. The Clerk eventually discovered that the organisation has changed its name. We endeavoured to contact the organisation but got no response. However, now that we have an address and have made contact we will keep up the pressure. As chairman of this committee I will, on the behalf of the members, make sure that representatives of that organisation come before the committee and I will not take "no" for an answer. Is it agreed that we will again request that organisation to come before the committee as soon as possible? Agreed.

Mr. Mulligan

On a point of clarification, I met the representative from Meat Industry Ireland to whom the correspondence was directed at the Bord Bia seminar and he indicated that he would be here on 25 January. He was under the impression that was the date. The letter was sent to him the day before and he had not received it in the post. He said that the new date might not suit him. He gave me the impression that he is interested in coming in and that it was not by any means the case that he was uninterested in doing so.

I thank Mr. Mulligan for that. We will make contact with him again. I thank the Department officials for attending.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.49 p.m. and adjourned at 1 p.m. until Wednesday, 25 January 2006.
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