JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FOOD AND THE MARINE díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 3 Jul 2012

Survival of the Islands and the Impact of Fishing Restrictions: Discussion

Chairman

We will now discuss the survival of the islands and the impact of fishing restrictions. With us today are representatives from the Donegal Islands Fishermen's Group. I welcome Mr. Jerry Early, spokesperson; Fr. John Joe Duffy, a representative of the Arranmore community, Donegal; and Mr. John O'Brien, a representative of Inishbofin Island and member of the Donegal Islands Fisherman's Group. I thank the witnesses for attending. We look forward to hearing their submissions on the survival of the islands and the impact of the fishing restrictions.

Before we begin, I draw to the attention of the witnesses the fact that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Mr. Early to make his opening statement.

Mr. Jerry Early

My name is Jerry Early. I am from Arranmore Island, County Donegal. I represent the Donegal islands' fishermen. I represent the communities that depend on the fishermen from these islands. Fr. John Joe Duffy will speak briefly when I have concluded, and Mr. O'Brien will take questions in the question and answer session.

I used to be a fisherman. This submission is made on behalf of the fishermen of the Donegal islands but the issues contained within it are common to island fishermen throughout Ireland. For the purpose of brevity and clarity, the submission will deal with issues specific to Arranmore Island whose population, according to the last census, is 487.

We call for the fair treatment of small island communities and respect for fishermen as custodians of our fisheries and the sea. We ask for the responsibility and right to practice traditional livelihoods that are ecologically sustainable, socially just and culturally diverse, and pass down our traditions, knowledge and skills to future generations.

In 2006, we were forced to organise to try to overcome our loss of livelihood. In our six year existence we have not wavered from our commitment in spite of political pressure, financial inducements and rejection. What has kept us on the road is the belief that we are right, the consequences to the islands of this ban remaining, and the overwhelming support and encouragement of our communities. We have had great support from the Gaia Foundation, the International Collective in Support of Fishworkers, the European Small Islands Federation, the European Commissioner, Maria Damanaki, and many more non-governmental organisations.

There are laws to protect our birds and seals, but traditional fishermen and small island communities are afforded little protection, with fishermen who are already an endangered species now threatened with extinction. Our islands have characteristics that are intrinsically valuable and play an important role in the mixture that forms Europe's diverse coastal economy. Islands should be maintained not as museum pieces, but as a vibrant and critical element of modern Europe.

If islands can gain consideration and return to the traditional way of life, we can look forward ten years to a situation where Arranmore would be linked in solidarity with other European and international small islands, sharing experiences, strategies and visions for resilient communities and ecosystems. We could look forward to a marine ecosystem that is healthy and abundant, with people happily coexisting with the sea and shore, ensuring that the marine ecosystem is in balance and their activities are within the ecosystems regenerative capacity. The fishermen would remain the custodians of the sea, passing on knowledge and skills to the next generation.

We can foresee the return of the emigrant, the need for more schools, the possibility of small businesses growing from the resurgence of the islands' economy, tourism on the upturn as our communities strengthen, a return to the days of sea sports and regattas, and a strong and successful lifeboat crew saving lives and bringing pride and prestige back to the people. We would have a say in the policy making affecting the islands as our Government recognises the special status of island communities and the work they do as guardians of traditions, the ecosystem and the seafaring arts and skills. The islands would return to self-sufficiency, practising traditional, small-scale fishing and supported by a diversity of livelihoods.

Island inhabitants have always accepted a role within society which sets them apart from their mainland countrymen. They do so because of tradition, duty and responsibility, and a love of a way of life. The island man has been given a task to keep this way of life alive. We are different, a breed apart. We are part of a whole yet, at times, undeniably alone and separate. Ireland has entrusted its islanders to keep the lights burning, keep the traditions and be at the forefront of the culture, the language, the skills the crafts. That we are recognised as a special class of people is amply demonstrated by the fact that Donegal islanders vote in all national elections two days before the rest of the country.

We on the islands learned from our fathers and passed our learning on, grateful for what we had and glad of the opportunity to share and continue it. We now ask for consideration. We ask for our way of life to be acknowledged, respected and treated accordingly. Island fishermen will happily undertake the responsibilities involved in preserving the traditions held in high esteem throughout Europe and beyond. All we ask is the opportunity. We ask that our proposal be considered and that our lives be returned to us so that we can continue in our lifestyle and our livelihood.

Legislation in 2006 effectively outlawed and banned the tradition of fishing for wild salmon in Ireland. To compound matters, area 6A was then closed in November 2008, which directly affects Donegal fishermen. Effectively, it means that the only stock islanders can fish is lobster and brown crab. Those species are being fished to extinction in our areas. Scientific organisations now publicly admit that they may have exaggerated the effects that drift net fishermen have had on wild salmon stocks.

We were offered a compensation package to stop fishing. We refused it. One of the conditions was that we would never again apply for a license to fish salmon. On our islands, with our traditions, where our fathers and grandfathers relied upon fishing to physically feed their children, the inclusion of that condition alone meant we could never accept the proposal. In 2006, we asked for special consideration, but none was given.

In 2006 we warned of the effects this legislation would have on the islands of Donegal and elsewhere. Unfortunately, we have since been proved correct, with the population decreasing as fishermen and their families leave the islands. On Arranmore, we have gone from 760 inhabitants to fewer than 500 in the space of a few years. The economy has suffered as businesses closed. On Arranmore alone, one hotel, one bar and three shops have ceased to trade. The fisherman's co-operative in Burtonport, once a vibrant part of the community, has closed, shedding between 60 and 100 jobs. The Arranmore lifeboat service has to date lost 25% of its highly-trained crew members. School enrolment numbers are falling to such a degree that one of the two Arranmore primary schools is now faced with closure.

Meanwhile, prices for allowed species such as lobster and crab have fallen dramatically as supply outstrips demand, making earning a living harder still. Arranmore Island has lost €800,000 from its annual economy, as set out in the excellent submission by Crick Carleton of Nautilus on behalf of Comhar na nOileán Teo. These figures do not include the €150,000 income from the white fish sector. The social structure of Arranmore is suffering as experienced seamen are not available to assist in the running of regattas and sailing races that are a huge part of summer life on the island. This will inevitably affect tourism. Perhaps most worrying of all, traditional skills are not being passed to the next generation. Last year, Fr. Duffy buried 11 people on Arranmore Island and baptised only one. The expectation is that no children will be born on Arranmore this year. We have lost large numbers of young men and women to emigration as they sought and failed to sustain a livelihood in an environment that could not support them. In the absence of corrective action, the future for the Donegal islands is clear.

Our solution is set out in the report we commissioned by Alyne Delaney, an expert in inland fisheries management. Specifically, we ask that the salmon-fishing ban be relaxed for a period of five years during which fishermen will work with the authorities to collate all information on stocks conservation and records. We will liaise with the Bord Iascaigh Mhara observers and scientific bodies. We undertake to provide the boats, equipment, personnel and training, and the blood sweat and tears that are part of every fisherman's life. We propose that we be allowed to fish in an area to be decided on a days-at-seas basis but not further than 12 miles from shore and, critically, far enough from land not to disturb the salmon bound for under pressure rivers. Generations of local knowledge enable island fishermen to pinpoint salmon runs to specific rivers with great accuracy.

What we have proposed will cost the State nothing. Arranmore Island is among the most deprived areas in the country, as illustrated by the Central Statistics Office map we have distributed to members. The island is classed by the CSO as extremely disadvantaged, being ranked one out of 483 on its relative deprivation score, with one being the most disadvantaged. If nothing is done, our community will die out. That is not meant to be an emotive attack on members' consciences; I am simply stating the facts as set out by all recent studies and statistics. A Government spokesperson told us recently that, in his opinion, the relaxation of the salmon-fishing ban at this time would be irresponsible. How much more irresponsible will it be to sit idly by as the lifeblood drains out of our islands? The Government should not be prepared to preside over the death of the vibrant, colourful communities that bring so much to the Irish way of life.

I thank members for their attention on this matter. We recognise the extreme pressures on their time and greatly appreciate the interest in our plight that is shown by the invitation to attend this meeting. The communities of the Donegal islands have sent us here to plead their case. We are requesting, on their behalf, that the committee commission a report into the effects of the salmon-fishing ban and the closure of area 6A on the Donegal islands, and the severe restrictions this legislation has placed on our way of life. We are depending on our political representatives to carry our message forward to those within Government who have the power to overturn this ban. We hope they will not see us abandoned. If we allow our islands to depopulate and fail, we will all carry the stigma of that failure. We will be remembered as the generation which gave up on a way of life, all for the sake of 20 small boats.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Early. I now invite Fr. John Joe Duffy to make his opening statement.

Fr. John Joe Duffy

Thank you, Chairman. I am the first generation of my family not to be involved in fishing, an involvement we can trace back some 300 years. My people came from the small island of Inisfree, close to Arranmore, which is no longer populated. My colleagues and I realise that we are living in very difficult times. We islanders are battling not only the recent economic decline but a decline that began some years previous to it. We do not deny there was investment in the islands, with a great deal of money going into infrastructure and other projects. Now, however, there is an almost tangible sense of despair among our island communities. Parents feel they are simply preparing their children for emigration.

The population statistics for Arranmore make for grim reading. While a survey conducted by a predecessor of mine in 1988 showed 768 people living on the island, the figure today is 487. That decline is due in large part to the severe restrictions that have been placed on fishing, including the ban on salmon fishing and the restrictions imposed within 40 miles of the shore in area 6A. These difficulties are exacerbated by the ongoing problems in regard to the herring fishery, where a track record is being sought for particular years. This will deny entry into herring fishing for many of our island boats. The overarching problem is that nothing has replaced the salmon ban. There is virtually no employment on the islands, save for those women who keep Gaeltacht students.

We have, at our own expense, maintained a campaign which seeks to raise awareness of our plight. We received great assistance from Alyne Delaney in the report she drew up, as referred to by Mr. Early. The bottom line, however, is that we do not have the financial resources to engage the scientific expertise to prove that the small catch of salmon we would take would have a negligible impact on overall sources. Conversely, it would have an enormous impact on our islands by helping to make life viable and halt emigration. One of the major consequences of the increase in emigration was the loss this year of two primary teachers. The effect is also clearly seen in the lifeboat service. We are very proud to boast that Arranmore Island has one of the most highly decorated lifeboat stations in the British Isles, with a proud record of lifesaving going back more than 100 years. As recently as last Thursday night, our lifeboat took a French fisherman who was ill with cardiac difficulties off his boat. The sad reality, however, is that we had only a crew of five to go out on the lifeboat on that occasion. That is a permissible number, but the ideal complement for safety purposes is seven. Our lifeboat crew is being depleted, in a few cases from retirement but mostly through emigration. We are reduced to a crew of 15, with several of them considering emigrating later in the year. It is a crisis situation. We should be allowed to fish salmon on a very strict basis, as well as fish that are mainly non-quota species, closer to our shores. While we are allowed to fish in area 6A, our boats are too small to go 40 miles out. We would not have the diesel fuel capacity to do so. If we had a favourable herring quota for our boats, we could smoke our own fish and have an Arranmore brand which would also create 12 to 14 seasonal jobs on land.

In addition to the ban on salmon, the ban in area 6A for small boats within 40 miles has put huge pressure on lobster and crab fishing. Lobster and crab prices are at an all time low. We have a crisis for our island population and way of life.

How can the joint committee, which has the expertise, help us? If members of the committee think that island life is worth preserving, restrictions need to be lifted along with a careful easing of the ban on salmon fishing. Otherwise island life will disappear as many young families continue to emigrate.

Chairman

Thank you, Fr. Duffy. Does Mr. O'Brien want to add anything?

Mr. John O’Brien

There is not a lot more left for me to say following what Mr. Early and Fr. Duffy have covered. I served on the last salmon commission where the standing scientific committee was given a job to do concerning the best way to conserve salmon stocks. I was the fishermen's representative. We told them all along that the major problem with the salmon stock was river pollution and the predation of seals at sea. The scientists recommended the best way to manage salmon stocks was to end mixed stock fisheries at sea and move it to a fishery where the surplus could be taken on the estuaries ashore. I felt very unhappy with that and so did the fishermen from all the other islands off the Donegal coast. We had no access to the surplus since it was only allowed to be taken in the rivers.

We were offered a compensation package, as Mr. Early said, but part of the conditions attached were that one could never again apply for a commercial licence. We decided not to take the money and keep some channels open to try to get our rights. We started this campaign five or six years ago. I have been to Europe on a few occasions where I met various people, including Mr. Michael Earle, who was an adviser on fisheries to the Green group in the European Parliament for 20 years. I told him I was representing the Donegal island fishermen and explained to him that the salmon fishery had been closed down off the Irish coast. I said we had been led to believe by the politicians that it was done under some EU habitats directive. He explained that the EU does not work in that way and that it does not take away people's livelihoods like that. He said the EU would have told the Irish Government to take some steps to conserve stocks, perhaps by keeping rivers clean or reducing efforts at sea. He said, however, that the EU would never have instructed the Government to close down people's livelihoods. I came back and had a meeting with the gentlemen representing the islands. I told them the situation was not as simple as we were being led to believe, and that this policy did not come from Europe. I said I was told in Europe that my problems lay with the politicians in Dublin.

Scientists have a job to do in advising how to conserve fish stocks, but politicians have always had a job to do in conserving the communities we represent. Fr. Duffy and Mr. Early referred to declining school enrolments and school closures. When can one know when an island is below the conservation limit? Last year, we buried 12 people while only one child was born. On my island the school closed a number of years ago and so my children attend school on the mainland. Is that island below the conservation limit therefore? There is a serious obligation on politicians in Ireland to look after our coastal communities. We want salmon in the rivers and want visiting anglers to come to this country.

All we want is our fair share. We managed all the fishery on a seasonal basis. Our salmon fishery was the most managed one in the world, including net length, depth and mesh size. It also included the hours one put to sea and the time one returned in the evening. It was a four-day week, seven weeks per year. What more can one do for conservation?

There is salmon running out in the wild Atlantic 365 days a year, so surely we should be entitled to our fair share of that. I queried some scientists about how stocks were now in the rivers. They said a lot of the rivers are starting to open up again. A lot of rivers had been closed down due to a lack of information or misinformation. Anglers on big rivers like the Moy reported their catches, which meant they kept big rivers open. However, anglers fishing smaller rivers either did not report their catches or deliberately misreported them to paint a bad picture, that there were no fish going upriver. It backfired on them and even some of the scientists would admit to that today, but it is too late for us.

It is not too late for the politicians in charge of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources or the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to reverse that decision. They should give us an opportunity to work with the Department, An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and the standing scientific committee, if they want to come aboard our boats. As Mr. Early and Fr. Duffy said, let us do a three-year or five-year trial to see how the stocks are, as well as the genetics of the fish and what stocks we are interfering with.

There are enough fish so we should be entitled to a share. Let us share them out evenly among the coastal communities, the rivers, anglers and everybody else. That is all we are asking. I hope that a favourable outcome will emerge.

Chairman

I thank Mr. O'Brien for his comments, which have given those of us who know practically nothing about island fishing a fair insight into it. I feel a little bit more informed, as do other members. I will call first on Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill, the Fianna Fáil spokesman on fisheries.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

I thank the delegation for travelling all the way from the islands of Arranmore and Inishbofin. They have educated the committee by speaking about the excellent report prepared by Aalborg University, which was presented recently on Arranmore Island. One of the aspects of what has been presented here today is rural decline. This committee, which deals with rural Ireland and agriculture, often refers to the mainland. People often forget about the rural decline that is occurring on offshore islands. The only industry readily available to any island community stems from the waters surrounding them. They are heavily dependent on fishing as a way of life and that did not happen over the last 20 or 30 years. As Fr. Duffy explained, his own family were involved in the sector for over 300 years and it went on long before that.

As well as being a resource, fishing is also a tradition. I thank the witnesses for coming here today to feed into the process in which this committee is engaged, by listening to various interest groups in the fisheries sector.

Over the years, smaller fishermen have been disenfranchised in many ways. The ban on certain fishing within area 6A has been referred to. That is the box covering the north-west coast, which affects Donegal and Mayo to a large extent. Over fishing has been identified as a problem. Other problems identified include the system introduced in November 2008, which closed off fishing in area 6A and is not working, and the decrease in supply and price of lobster and crab because of over-fishing. The scientific advice at the time was to close for certain species but that has not worked. The scientists do not always get it right, as proven by that ban. Perhaps the witnesses will elaborate on where we are at in terms of the availability of lobster and crab and, if changes are not introduced in respect of area 6A, what this will mean in three or five years time? I would welcome the witnesses suggestions in that regard, which might be helpful in assisting the committee to form an opinion on this issue.

On the salmon issue, the presentation made today by Mr. Early, Fr. Duffy and Mr. O'Brien is specific and identifies a number of areas of concern. The document which accompanied the presentation was very specific and well prepared. Mr. O'Brien is a key member of the salmon commission, an important organisation established prior to 2006 which examined all of the pros and cons around salmon conservation and the best way to achieve it. The commission has identified attacks by seals on salmon in our bays as a problem. I live near a bay and have seen at first hand seals sitting in the bay waiting for the salmon to come in with the tide, following which they gobble them up, leaving them no chance of getting up the river to spawn. Despite that this has been identified by the commission as a major issue of concern, it has not been addressed.

Another issue of concern, which was highlighted last week in a report published by the Environmental Protection Agency, is widespread pollution of our lakes and rivers. When a salmon comes into a river and smolts, that smolt, if it survives and goes out to sea, comes back to the same river. It is unbelievable. Salmon can only breed successfully if the rivers are clean and they can gain access to them. However, the seals are prohibiting their safe passage into the rivers. If the rivers are not clean and there are not adequate prepared spawning beds, then salmon do not have a chance of reproducing. That is the crux of this issue. The small amount of salmon being caught at sea by drift net fishermen is neither here nor there. Inland Fisheries Ireland is responsible for the preservation of our rivers and the species that develop therein. Unfortunately, however, it does not have the resources to man the rivers or to carry out the work which by law it is supposed to do. This is where the problem lies, as identified in the report and scientific advice provided in the document. Perhaps the witnesses would elaborate on that point.

Scientists agree that there is a surplus of 250,000-300,000 wild salmon in the Atlantic. I read an article over the weekend which stated that water levels in a number of rivers in County Donegal was reduced last week but that the salmon population in those rivers increased during the same week last year, which indicates the salmon are there. Anecdotal scientific evidence indicates that the salmon are migrating back down the Atlantic but later in the year. Would the witnesses agree with this and what, in their view, can we do to address the pollution of our rivers and seal issue? Any expert in an office in the Department can write a report on seals. However, do the witnesses, as fisherman living on the islands, think this is a problem in their area?

I did not support the legislation introduced in 2006 because I believed it was too wide ranging. I have always believed that a ban on a particular species, such as was implemented on the rivers, should be based on local scientific information and should be implemented on a pilot basis only. However, the ban introduced applies not for two or three years but indefinitely. I believe that was wrong. I acknowledge that a €30 million hardship fund was made available in this regard. I believe the fishermen who chose not to avail of that fund deserve our respect and our support. They certainly deserve our time and that we listen to what they have to say. I will leave it at that for now but may have further questions later.

I thank the Donegal Islands fishermen group, which is located in my constituency, for attending the meeting today. That aside, I fundamentally believe that it is wrong to take a livelihood and way of life from people who know nothing else and who have no other source of income. What has happened to the population of Arranmore is one example in this regard, which is replicated across all of the islands along the west coast, including, I am sure, in Deputy Ó Cuív's constituency of Connemara. We have to look at this as a way of life and must ensure we engage constructively on this issue. I hope the committee, working with the witnesses, the Marine Institute and Bord Iascaigh Mhara, will agree to look at this issue constructively and on a scientific basis to see if we can bring to the table proposals with which everyone can live. Removing a resource and not replacing it is not fair to the people who chose not to avail of the hardship fund. Those people deserve respect. As a committee, we have much work to do on this issue.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

I thank Mr. Early, Fr. Duffy and Mr. O'Brien for their presentations which painted a good picture of the challenges faced by the island communities which they represent.

No one here or elsewhere could dispute the vision and objectives set out by the witnesses in terms of their calls for the fair treatment of small island communities, respect for fisherman as providers of sustainable seafood and custodians of their fisheries and the sea. Interestingly, the witnesses have asked for the responsibility and right to practise traditional livelihoods which are ecologically sustainable, socially just and culturally diverse and the right to pass on their traditions, knowledge and skills to future generations. I do not believe there is anyone in society who would argue that vision or those objectives are flawed in any way.

Just as communities, Government and the European Union aim to protect and promote a rural way of life, they should be aiming to protect, sustain and promote island communities. This objective must have the full support of the Government. We must become persuaders within the EU to this point of view. Fr. John Joe Duffy painted a very black picture of the sustainability of the island community. Put quite simply, if the communities continue in the direction in which they are currently going, we will not have island communities, which is very stark.

We need to revisit what level of agreement can be achieved in terms of the problem which people are trying to solve. Scientists and others involved in fisheries contend that salmon stocks and replacement levels are not sustainable and that there are various causes in this regard. Scientists differ and debate as to the various causes but I can claim, with a fair degree of certainty, that it was not the Donegal island fishermen, the Irish island fishermen or island fishermen throughout the world who plundered salmon stocks to their current levels. However, when we consider how to resolve the problem, it is island fishermen, not just in Ireland but elsewhere, who appear to be hit disproportionately by their governments and the EU. We need to examine what causes the problem and at just ways to remedy the cause. We must be at least as concerned about sustainable island communities as we are about sustainable natural resources. If one takes island fishermen who were the managers of the oceans around them for centuries out of the equation, one will do nothing to sustain the fishing resources that exist.

I would be interested to hear a little more about Fr. John Joe Duffy's proposal relating to the potential for marine related off-season employment on the island. That is the type of direction we must take, that is, adding value to the resources to which we have access.

The solution that is put forward is a lifting of the restrictions. People such as the witnesses must be involved in the process of reaching a conclusion as to how things can be fixed. They have great detailed knowledge of what is there. There appears to be a strong reliance on scientific material not just with regard to salmon fisheries, but also in respect of natural resources. Where anything can be measured people will automatically assume that it is okay. If something can be measured, added and where there are pluses, minuses or whatever, they can understand that, but the same weight does not appear to be given to the very real experience of those who are living the industry or trying to work with those resources. We must find a way whereby groups who should be working the salmon fisheries are involved in the process. Unless they are involved, they will not buy into it but if they are involved, they will ensure that informed decisions are made and they will work with those decisions. We should be considering a role for Ireland's island community in determining and agreeing conservation measures. It should not be one-way traffic with people being told what they should do. We must seek to learn from international practice and from island communities in other areas. I am sure there are people who do things a great deal better than us so we should learn from them.

Somebody said that rural depopulation is being measured and monitored. I am not sure that is the case. What we are good at doing is monitoring on a county and regional basis, but there can be huge imbalances within a county. There are huge imbalances in Donegal between the bigger towns and the island communities. We are good at county level but below that level we are not good at looking at the impact of economic decisions on the distribution of the population. I believe rural depopulation is happening, with migration taking place within counties and between counties within provinces. Increasingly, there are geographic areas that are being depopulated but we will not notice it until it is too late. The islands are a strong example of that.

The Aalborg university report is excellent. I notice that one of the points made in it is the Commissioner's interest in European small scale fisheries and communities and the promotion of those. How do the witnesses believe that Irish Government negotiators can engage to improve the interests of small scale fisheries and communities? How do they see their group contributing to the decision-making process I described earlier on the setting of whatever controls are needed? Finally, because it is topical at present, what is the impact on the wild salmon stocks of salmon farms around our coasts?

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I thank the delegation from the Donegal islands for its presentation. I had the pleasure of being on Arranmore Island for the launch of the survival plan, which is an excellent document. It was prepared with the assistance of Aalborg university and Alyne Delaney, who is at the heart of European decision making because she is an adviser to Commissioner Damanaki on the impacts of the Common Fisheries Policy on communities. It is important that she was involved in drafting this report. Often we and the European Union examine the impacts of decisions on wildlife, habitats and so forth but not the impacts decisions can have on communities around our coasts and in our societies. The community's position should be strong and should be protected as much as any of the other conservation objectives of the EU and the Government.

A paragraph in the submission from Mr. Jerry Early puts the position in a nutshell:

We call for the fair treatment of small island communities, respect for fishermen as custodians of our fisheries and the sea. We ask for the responsibility and right to practice traditional livelihoods that are ecologically sustainable, socially just and culturally diverse and to pass down our traditions, knowledge and skills to future generations.

That sums up the purpose of today's meeting and the reason this delegation is present. It is the reason this committee should fully support the objectives of the island group. It is vitally important because we would lose a great deal from our society and Irish heritage, and indeed from European heritage, if, through actions that are totally within our control, we allow the depopulation of any more of our offshore islands and allow communities to die. Too often politicians in this country have been able to blame Brussels and to say Europe is forcing them to do something because it introduced certain rules. Everything the committee is seeking today is within the gift of the Irish Government and it is within the control of politicians in this country to make it happen, and in making it happen we can help to sustain the communities, which is vital.

In addition, we can add to the body of evidence that must be put in the public domain. There is much dispute and arguments have raged for years about where the salmon stocks have been affected and whether it is due to pollution in our rivers and lakes. There is also much discussion about what happens salmon when they are off the coasts of Greenland and Iceland, where they are prey for other fishery stocks. There are many information gaps that must be filled. One of the great aspects of this proposal, particularly the proposal relating to salmon fishing, is that by allowing island fishermen to return to a limited form of fishing, working with the Marine Institute and BIM, we can build that level of scientific knowledge where there are serious gaps, add to the body of evidence and help to sustain the fishery in the future and also, perhaps, to sustain the future of salmon stocks, although it might seem bizarre to some people who talk about conservation in terms of stopping fishermen from fishing. That is important.

The issues that have been raised are very serious and must be addressed with a sense of urgency. I know that we will look closely at the Common Fisheries Policy and inshore fisheries. I hope the joint committee will present a report on it before the end of the year. Is it appropriate for the joint committee to send the survival plan to the relevant Departments in advance of that, on foot of today's meeting with the transcript of the discussion? That might prompt the Department into action or a response so that we can look and examine issues to arrive at solutions.

I now ask Mr. Jerry Early, Fr. John Joe Duffy and Mr. John O'Brien to comment on the number of fishermen who held a salmon fishing licence but refused to take up the buy out offer and surrender their licence. How many would return to salmon fishing, if they were allowed to do so? Have they considered what it should look life and how it could be managed? Do they think it would tie in with collecting scientific evidence? In area 6A, what type of fisheries to they envisage and how could it be managed as a basis to go forward and work with the various agencies to try to persuade them to allow some of these steps to take place? I thank the delegation for their presentations. Their evidence is vitally important for the work of the joint committee.

Senator Michael Comiskey

I welcome Fr. John Joe Duffy, Mr. Jerry Early and Mr. John O'Brien and thank them for their presentation. I do not come from a fishing community, I am from Leitrim, which is not too far away from County Donegal. I often compare the small farmer to the smaller fisherman, as they have much in common. I agree with the previous Speakers that it is very important for us to protect rural communities and the communities along the west coast and on the islands.

Many of my questions have been asked already, but how many years has the ban on drift net fishing of salmon been in place? Is there a noticeable difference in the number of salmon in the sea and in the rivers since that happened? Last week a delegation from the Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers made a presentation and they were concerned about the numbers of fish coming up into the rivers. We will need to get everybody to get together to sort out the problem.

In addition to the salmon ban, the herring quota is another issue. There is some movement on the herring quota. Would it improve the income of fishermen, if we had a higher herring quota?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Ba mhaith liom i dtosach báire failte a chur roimh na toscairí anseo. Tá aithne agam ar chuid acu le fada agus tá a fhios agam cé chomh mór agus a bhaineann an t-iascaireacht lena saol. Tá níos mó ná airgead i gceist anseo agus tuigim é sin. Tá slí bheatha agus slí maireachtála i gceist agus tá píosa de na hiascairí uilig bainteach leis an bhfarraige. Tá a fhios agam mar shampla, go dtéann na hiascairí isteach go hInis Bó Finne chuile samhradh díreach le dul ag iascaireacht. Tuigim é sin.

The refusal to engage in the buy out of salmon fishing licence shows how strongly people feel about this issue. There was a considerable lump sum of money on offer to some fishermen. If anyone wants to know the strength of feeling of people in County Donegal about the issue, one measurement is the fact that people did not take up the offer of the buy out.

Many people who are not familiar with islands have a perception that islanders would have big fleets, good boats and plenty of tonnage. That is not true. With the exception of Inis Mór and the Aran islands in County Galway, most of the islands did not have suitable piers for landing sizeable boats. Even though they were surrounded by the sea, they traditionally fished in small craft and I would like the witnesses to give details of the existing vessels on the various islands, the number and size of boats. We are not talking about people with super trawlers but people with small boats and low tonnage. One of the issues I considered but had not managed to resolve was that there would be an allocation of special island tonnage once the piers were built. I know the islanders on Aran Mór are still waiting for Cé an Reannaigh. The planning stage has been completed and I hope the current Minister can finish the job. There were not too many jobs left for him, I understand two piers and two air terminals remain to be done from the €100 million programme. Everything else was done. It will cost about €14 million to €15 million to do the remaining projects during a three or four year period. The heavy lift is done and I hope the Minister will be able to finish the projects that had gone as far as the tender stage.

On the islands, there are four or five possibilities for economic activity, agriculture, fishing, tourism, the language itself Is saibhreas é an teanga i gcás an dá oileán atá i gceist. Luadh é sin i gcás na gcoláistí Gaeilge, and rural recreation, because islands are full of cliffs and all sorts of interesting places. The latest activity in Inis Mór is diving off the top of the cliffs into the sea. It is fair to say that fishing has been part of island life and as well as it being a way of living, it is a way of life. Not only is it an income generator but it is a way of life. I often draw a comparison that to take fishing away from islanders is like taking the hurley sticks away from people in County Kilkenny. Hurling is part of the Kilkenny people. Although they are not hurling for money, if one was to take hurling from them, the community would be devastated. That is not to take away from the financial elements but to see it only in money terms is wrong and on the other hand to see it only in leisure terms is wrong too because people must live. It is a dual combination. It is very important.

The delegation has made its presentation and the question is how do we go forward from here. A pat on the back for the presentation will not solve the problem. From my experience of this issue - I was involved in a High Court case with local fishermen in Connemara many years ago against regulations constraining drift net fishing - in making proposals on drift netting, I advise the delegates not to underestimate the powerful national and international forces they are up against. They do not have to worry where the bread on the table comes from.

I am sure this topic was an issues for discussion when the joint committee was reconfigured. If this is a discussion on salmon fisheries, this is probably the wrong committee, with no disrespect to the Chairman, as inland fisheries and natural resources have been taken by the other committee. If it is a debate on fishing, this is the correct committee to deal with it but if it is a debate on the islands, it is a matter for the joint committee that deals with the Gaeltacht and the Islands. This debate encompasses all of these things. The Chairman has retained this matter, may I suggest that the two other relevant committees be kept informed of the hearings on this subject, because it is a cross-cutting matter and does not fit into a neat pigeon hole. I believe it is better that everything is done in one committee. We need to talk to Inland Fisheries Ireland, BIM, the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, the marine section of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the natural resources section of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. All those Departments and agencies have a central role to play in finding a solution. Although my heart will tell me the solution is easy enough, namely, to allow a limited amount of drift net fishing especially in regard any proposed changes to box 6A in the Common Fisheries Policy, after nearly 20 years in the Dáil I have a funny feeling we will find we must work very hard to try to find solutions to the delegates' problems. We must look at every way of solving this. If it cannot be done one way, we must find another way in which to do it. If we claim that such a way is the only possible solution, they might find themselves against a brick wall. That has been my experience in the whole debate. On the other hand we must admit that an island whose fishermen cannot fish is a contradiction in terms. That island communities should not have preferences that are clearly established in regard to the seas around them is wrong. It is also wrong because of the historical circumstance, in which island fishing was not developed.

I suggest that this be done on an all-island basis, in the context of Clare Island, Inisturk and Inisboffin as well as Tory, Inis Bó Finne ó thuaidh, Arranmore, the Aran Islands and the Cork islands. There is a commonality and it would be well worth looking at it. An example is Inis Maan, which for the first time can keep trawlers on the island. Until we built a very expensive pier there, the island could only keep curraghs because no tonnage was available. This issue should be looked at in the round and I hope we can resolve it.

There are people who think I have an awful set against the Blasket Islands. I am not against the heritage but I must confess I disagreed when I used to hear people proposing spending millions on those islands because the people who used to live there used to speak the Irish language. Those same people begrudged spending on the genuinely Irish-speaking islands that still have live Irish-speaking populations. I always thought there was a contradiction in terms there, a fossilisation of culture. The Irish language spoken on Inis Bó Finne i dTír Chonaill, ar Oileán Thoraigh, in Árainn Mhór, Inis Mór, Inis Meáin agus Inis Oírr agus thíos ó dheas in Oileán Cléire, tá sé chomh beo agus chomh saibhir leis an teanga a bhí ag Peig Sayers. An t-aon difríocht atá ann, tá sí ann i gcónaí agus is féidir linn í a choinneáil. Tá contúirt ann, an fhad agus go bhfuil muid ag sábháil iarsmaí an Bhlascaoid, go ligfidh muid leis na pobail beo atá ar na hoileáin Gaeltachta bás a fháil agus go gcaillfimid an teanga ar na hoileáin. Bheadh sin iorónach agus tragóideach. Caithfimid a dhéanamh cinnte nach dtarlóidh sé sin.

Chairman

I call Senators Paschal Mooney and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh and Deputy McConalogue. I must vacate the Chair because of an appointment in Wicklow at 5.15 p.m. Before I go, I would like to get agreement. Deputy Pringle made a proposal I intended to accept at the end of the meeting, namely, that we would forward details of the survival plan and the transcripts of today's meeting to the relevant Departments. Following what Deputy Ó Cuív suggested, perhaps we should identify the Departments he referenced as the target Departments. Is that agreed by the committee? Agreed.

There are three further contributions, unless the delegates wish to speak now and then hear the three speakers. I have gone around every member at this stage-----

Senator Paschal Mooney

I propose we-----

Mr. Jerry Early

I have one question before the Chairman leaves. One thing we stressed that should go forward from this meeting, and which we believe is vitally important, is that a report is made to back up or explore the avenues open to us. That is paramount. Otherwise it is our opinion against that of others. We believe if there is a balanced opinion we can come to an agreement with all parties and perhaps find common ground.

Chairman

Before we invited the delegates we agreed on a work programme in respect of the survival of coastal communities and the exploration of agriculture. Last week, we spoke to representatives of inland fisheries. They are not directly the responsibility of this committee, but when they attended as invitees they were. The purpose of establishing a sub-group to work on driving a measure along the lines proposed by the delegates is to pull all of this together and explore how we - even if we are not the only committee responsible, as Deputy Ó Cuív noted - can become the driving committee responsible for trying to achieve the objectives of the island communities. The delegates outlined these in their mission statement. These are entirely understandable and we would all agree to them. From the point of view of being the catalyst committee, that is what we hope to achieve. The sub-group will meet to try to structure this and scope it out and will return to the committee. If that means engagement with other committees within the House, we will try to do it. We are not yet sure if we can. I am not trying to avoid the question and I take the point.

Deputy Deering will take the Chair in about five minutes to conclude the meeting. Senators Mooney and Ó Clochartaigh and Deputy McConalogue have yet to speak and the delegates might then respond. I apologise that I cannot stay; I would like to. I have found this very informative on a personal level. There was an incident in my area at the weekend, a fish-kill on the River Vartry. We do not know the cause yet but all life in that river has been killed. It is a serious issue and people are trying to get to the bottom of it. Outside forces can have an impact on rivers that otherwise might be deemed to be healthy. Sometimes things happen that need to be explored.

Senator Paschal Mooney

Much of what I intended to say has been covered by my colleagues, in particular by our spokesperson and by Senator Ó Domhnaill and Deputy Ó Cuív. What I am focusing on is along the lines of what Deputy Ó Cuív and the Chairman proposed as a follow-up. What struck me about the Aalborg University report were its conclusions. It stated it was within the power of the Irish Government to sustain Ireland's natural marine and socio-cultural resources and that part of the misperception concerning the viewed difficulty in moving in this direction is found not only in Ireland, but throughout the EU. It stems from the lack of precedent of including social sustainability with environmental sustainability at the management rather than the political stage of the process.

I am sorry I was not present earlier for the presentations. As the delegates know, there was an event in the Seanad. However, I am here to express my solidarity with the delegates as a community. Like Senator Comiskey, I come from County Leitrim but my wife was born and reared in Castletownbere and I have been visiting there long enough to know and understand as much as I can about coastal communities and, in particular, the importance of the sea and fishing. I have also visited Arranmore and have happy memories of it. I would be in concert with all my colleagues on this committee and am strongly of the view that we must not only support the delegates, but be seen to support them. The point made by Deputy Ó Cuív is particularly vital. This is a multi-layered situation and brings in a number of other Departments. It may be as much for that reason that much of what the delegates are attempting to achieve has not occurred - there is no single focus. I share the Deputy's view that this should be an in-the-round situation. It should not be just about Arranmore, for example, but about the islands in general, the island communities off this island and the vital role they play. We must ensure their culture and heritage survive. We are all in this together. This is what makes us Irish and unique.

To reiterate, I am present to express solidarity with the delegates' community and support all the initiatives that have been proposed. I assure them this committee will not leave the issue sit - it is far too important. This is about people's lives, the witnesses' future, the future of the islands and our own future.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. Tá mé anseo chun mo thacaíocht a léiriú dóibh agus don chur i láthair atá déanta acu. Sílim go bhfuil an méid atá ráite acu iontach tábhachtach ní hamháin ó thaobh na hiascaireachta de, ach freisin ó thaobh inmharthanacht na bpobal ina bhfuil siad ina gcónaí - na pobail atá againn i gConamara, cois cósta agus mar sin de. Sílim go dtéann an méid atá á rá ag na finnéithe chun croí na ceiste ó thaobh an Rialtas atá againn. An bhfuilimid ag iarraidh go mbeadh na hoileáin, ach go háirithe, inmharthanach? Ba cheart go mbeadh daoine ina gcónaí, go mbeadh oideachas ar fáil tríd na scoileanna, go mbeadh daoine fostaithe, go mbeadh dochtúirí agus banaltraí ar fáil agus go mbeadh na hiascairí in ann slí bheatha a bhaint amach ar na hoileáin.

I support the position of the witnesses. When these issues are debated in the Seanad, I argue, no more than my colleague, Deputy Michael Colreavy, for the sustainability of smaller fishermen along the coast and on the islands in particular. That goes to the wider question of the sustainability of islands as living communities. I do not want to repeat what has been said but this goes to the heart of questions about keeping rural and island schools open and ensuring that doctors, nurses, other services, such as the fire service, and the necessary infrastructure are available. We need to make sure that happens.

The designation of areas as natural heritage areas, special protection areas and special areas of conservation has devastated the possibilities for development on the islands. Even the basic activity of cutting seaweed, picking winkles and that type of small scale work, which provides additional income for people who live on islands or in rural coastal communities, has all been called into question. Bearing in mind that local people have been to the forefront of maintaining their local ecology and environment for hundreds of years in most cases, I wonder how we can question whether we should allow people to engage in such a viable traditional activity.

We asked the Minister, Deputy Coveney, at one stage in the Seanad if it was possible to examine the provision of a derogation for traditional fishermen, whereby those in curraghs or small boats would be given a special derogation and be quota free in that they would be allowed to fish whatever they catch if they are under a certain size. The Minister did not turn down that suggestion. He did not say it was impossible and that might be an avenue we should examine. It would not solve all the problems but it would solve them for many of the smaller fisherman. It might provide some assistance to those who are dependent on a number of sources, namely, a little fishing, farming and tourism, for their income. It is important we examine those types of solutions as well.

It is important we stand together as communities and that island communities are not left alone to fight this case. It is an all-Ireland issue. We are an island off the west coast of Europe and have islands off our west coast. We need to see the islands as a natural asset and that the fishing industry is very much part of that.

There has been a good deal of dilly-dallying on the part of the Minister up to now. There was much talk prior to the election that he would stand by the smaller fisherman and that the quota would be divided much more fairly such that it would give those with smaller fishing boats and those along the west coast more of a chance. We have yet to see whether that will happen. I hope it does because the knock-on effect for fish processing and other related industries, including haulage, would be massive and would assist the islands in particular. We need to keep up the pressure up to ensure this happens.

Tá mé an-bhuíoch daoibh faoi theacht isteach. Tá brón orm nach raibh mé anseo don chur i láthair - bhí gnóthaí eile le déanamh agam. Tá súil agam cuairt a thabhairt oraibh amach anseo leis an scéal a fheiceáil dom féin.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to speak. I welcome the speakers and the guests in the Visitors Gallery and commend them on their efforts and proactivity to try to address this issue. The salmon fishing ban has had a significant impact on many communities, not only on those on the islands but in fishing villages across Donegal, from where I come, and many other parts of the country. The impact has been felt on the islands where there are no other options or alternatives and they depend on fishing as a stable industry for their communities. We are seeing the impact of that. I join my colleagues, our spokesperson Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill, Deputy Ó CuÍv and Senator Mooney in offering the witnesses my support in any way I can be of assistance. I am not a member of this committee but when I learned the witnesses were coming before this committee, I wanted to hear exactly what they were proposing. I will work with the committee in supporting the witnesses in any way I can.

Chairman

I will have to vacate the Chair shortly but before I do, I want to make a few points. The lady who completed the report is an adviser to Commissioner Damanaki. Notwithstanding everything that has been said, this is an Irish Government response. This will fall into the context of the Common Fisheries Policy as well as the support of local rural communities, island communities, etc. It is important that card is played strongly by us and by the witnesses. We should note that when we set about our work. If the witnesses were seeking to get this, it might take a while but the fact that they have it is a big addition to the case in regard to the fish stocks. There has always been an aspiration within the Common Fisheries Policy that while there is a consolidation of the main fleet in many ways, and some people want there to be a further consolation of it, there is a recognition that a parallel universe exists in terms of rural coastal communities and island communities. That is something we should harness.

I received a note from Deputy Joe McHugh indicating that he wishes to convey his apologies. He had an appointment in Donegal that prevented him being in Dublin in time for the meeting. He expresses his support for Donegal Island Fishermen and awaits the outcome of today's proceedings of the committee.

Before the witnesses respond, I want to thank them for coming here today and apologise for not being able to say for the conclusion of the meeting. I will ask Deputy Deering, the Vice Chairman, to take over. The discussion can then continue and we will be in touch.

Deputy Pat Deering took the Chair.

Vice Chairman

I call Mr. Early to respond.

Mr. Jerry Early

I will respond first to Senator Ó Domhnaill's question on the effects the ban has had on other fishery stocks. As we said in our report, we were confined to fishing for lobster crab due to the ban on salmon fishing and the closure of area 6A. Traditionally, the salmon season was June and July, which gave the lobster and crab grounds a fantastic break and a great chance to regenerate. When the ban came in, this ground did not get the rest it required. Intensive fishing took place and, unfortunately, as the numbers dropped, many the lobster pots went into the ground. It is a well recognised fact by those not only on the islands, but on all onshore sectors along the coast, that the lobster and crab fishery is under huge threat, particularly in area 6A where we do not have an alternative since the introduction of the salmon ban.

Senator Ó Domhnaill also asked how we feel about the scientific reports. Our opinion is that science, scientific reports and scientists' views can differ. An important point to make is that our knowledge, as born and bred fishermen, no more than that of born and bred farmers, is such that we are in many ways more educated to make an informed decision on certain stocks. We have the ways and means because we are on the ground and we see the situation. We are born and brought up with fishing. I dislike using the term "fight" but our campaign started back in 2006 because we disputed the figures being bandied by the scientists of the day. If we had believed the figures to be true we would have stood aside. We are passionate about this issue. I remember meeting Deputy Ó Cuív a short time after the ban was imposed. We sat here in Leinster House and I was accompanied by Mr. John O'Brien and Fr. Duffy. We still passionately dispute the ban. We do not have the data and I do not think anybody has the correct data as to the amount of salmon going back up the rivers. There is no set method for counting salmon. It is done by means of catch and release. I am not here to bash anglers, in fact, I welcome some of their comments regarding the threat to the farmed salmon and we agree with anglers on this issue. I wish to make it clear that both we and the anglers want to work together and to share our experiences. There is no wall between us.

My point is that no data is being collected either on an annual, monthly or biannual basis. We can only go by our own experiences. I am a casual fisherman who does a bit of fishing such as pollock and mackerel fishing, probably like Deputy Ó Cuív when he visits the islands off the west coast. I have never seen a bigger sign of salmon in the water in all my years and I am 46 years of age. The salmon birds are going crazy in the water. I have seen more seals with salmon in their mouths. They have learned how to catch the salmon on the run - an amazing feat in itself for which I commend the seal because it is a fantastic skill. We could hardly catch them with a net but they can catch them on the run.

I refer also to the numbers of salmon jumping which are visible. As Fr. John Joe alluded to in his contribution, we cannot get a scientist to say that the salmon are there but we want to work with the scientists. We want the scientists to use us as their scientists. As we said in our presentation, we could gather the information the scientists need at a minimum of three years up to a maximum of five years We will liaise with the BIM observers or any other observers as required by the agencies or the Government. I emphasise that if after five years it is shown that the stocks are under threat up to a point where they are severely depleted, I can only speak as a representative and spokesperson for the Donegal Islands Fishermen's Committee, but we will down our tools and we will not fight this case any longer. I stress that in my opinion, as a fisherman who was born and bred on the sea and who has fished the sea all my life, there is an abundance of fish in the water.

Mr. John O’Brien

Deputy Pringle asked how many fishermen took up the buy-out option. There are two fisheries districts in the Donegal area, the Ballyshannon fisheries district and the Letterkenny fisheries district. We came under the Letterkenny district. In that area there were 127 driftnet licences and out of that 127, I think 20 refused to accept the compensation and 19 or so were from the Donegal islands of Tory, Inisbofin and Arranmore because moving the fishery into a single stock fishery in the rivers was not a suitable alternative for us. Deputy Ó Cuív when he was the Minister, made the decision about the boats being used on the islands. My own boat is the biggest boat in our fleet at 12 m and two such boats would fit into this room. Deputy Ó Cuív said the size was limited to the type of harbours such as Magheraroarty where there is no harbour and one must come ashore. There is no point in having a boat with a 5 m draught when it could not get near the pier. He explained that we were limited.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Cé mhéid bád a bheadh ann? Cé mhéid bád ar an dóigh sin?

Mr. John O’Brien

Tá thart faoi ocht go dtí a deich, eight to ten, polyvalent boats and there might be about 20 to 24 with the potting licence. The closure of area 6 affected the fishery and fishermen like me who had a polyvalent boat meaning one could fish whatever species was caught, such as haddock or turbot. It was a top of the range licence. Once area 6 was closed we were limited to fishing for crab and lobster. I had to buy a purpose-built boat for keeping crab and lobster alive. Since area 6 extends the whole way up to the north west of Scotland and out for 40 miles, all the boats in that area went fishing for shellfish as well. There is little or no market in Ireland for shellfish so it was all exported to France. After two years the French fishermen were threatening to stop the Irish and UK lorries from going into France because we were undercutting their prices. They said we would have to agree not to sell any crab for less than €2 a kilo which we did but it is very difficult to survive on that price. When we sell for €2 a kilo in France, it costs 70 cent to 90 cent a kilo to transport them to France so we get €1.10 back. In order to survive, like Jerry O'Brien said about the pots, we are continuously dumping more crab onto the French and the Spanish markets. This is not good for the market nor is it good for the sustainability of the fishery.

Up to the time we joined the European Union, the island fishermen managed their fishery and it cost the Government nothing and there was no need for fisheries officers, corvettes or spotter planes. We fished on a seasonal basis. We fished salmon during May, June and July; we fished herring for a season; we fished crab and lobster for a season and that is how the fishery was managed and there were no problems. We fished the fish when it was in premium condition for the market whereas now, EU and departmental regulations want to put everybody into boxes so that if a fisherman has a potting boat he fishes for crab all year round, whether there is money in it or not.

Fr. John Joe Duffy referred to the herring fishing. Just because we have not fished herring since 2006, we have lost the entitlement to fish herring. We cannot operate nets to catch herring because we are not allowed any nets on board our boats. Mr. O'Brien referred to the meeting with the then Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, when the fishery was closed down and he made €5 million available to community groups, to the salmon hardship scheme and to other things. We applied for grants for even jigging machines to catch mackerel and pollock. BIM advised Comhairle na nOileán that because we were in area six, not to grant aid us because we are not allowed catch any fish in area 6, therefore, we lost out on both counts. We are in a desperate situation, and I hope there will be a favourable outcome from this meeting. Do members have any other questions they wish to ask?

Vice Chairman

Does Fr. Duffy wish to contribute?

Fr. John Joe Duffy

When I was in Europe recently I met Mr. Lado of the European Commission's Directorate-General for Maritime Affairs and Fisheries who told me that there has always been special treatment for small-scale fishing and that they were also exempt from some measures under the recovery plan. He said there should be a differentiated regime and special treatment given to small fisheries. He stressed the importance of the value of fisheries to coastal areas. That is what we are looking for today, namely, special treatment for our islands that are surrounded by water containing fish yet we cannot take the fish out of the water to put them on our own table. All we are looking for is a modest income.

The banning of salmon fishing and the restrictions imposed in area 6A were anti-conservationist. The fishermen, by fishing in different cycles, were conservationists. There must be co-existence. We must be given certain rights. Before the salmon ban was introduced a professor who was the first chairman of the National Salmon Commission stated that one group should not monopolise salmon fishing, but one group was allowed monopolise salmon fishing. That was taken away from us.

To reply to some of the questions, there is great value to be added to the likes of salmon. There is huge potential for employment from salmon fishing on our small islands. I am willing to elaborate on that later; I do not want to delay the committee.

The Government is going to Europe looking to have decisions made at a more regional level. Europe is in favour of decision making at a more regional level but we need co-operation from our Government in terms of localised decision making. We need more localised participation and more co-operation with local fishermen and for the Government to allow them have their say.

Islands will not survive if a limited catch of salmon, in a regimented way, is not allowed. Salmon fishing was regimented. It was one of the fisheries on which there was the most scientific data, and that was due to the help of fishermen. That data can be seen in the Marine Institute. It was more monitored and policed than any fishery.

The type of boats we are talking about are very small. I estimate there is one boat under 15 m on Arranmore. Among the other islands there are approximately six boats around 12 m in length and approximately 14 to 17 boats from 7 m or less to about 9 or 10 m. They are very small boats to allow us fish a limited number of salmon inside the 40 mile limit in area 6A. To give us a quota of herring would have a negligible impact on stocks.

To refer to Deputy Pringle's question, most of the fish we would be fishing within area 6A would be non-quota species such as coley, black pollock, jimmydogs or sand dogs, wrasse, eels, turbet and brill. Also, fishing could be restricted during the spawning period of February to March. The type of net we use is a larger type of mesh to allow the cod to escape. Cod is not caught by the type of boats that fish from the islands. That was the ridiculous aspect. Originally, this was a proposal from Department officials to restrict foreign vessels coming in here but in so doing they had no regard for the small island vessels and restricted them. They were not targeting the island vessels. They were targeting foreign vessels but no thought was given to the small island vessels and an unintended consequence of that is that we were stopped from fishing.

I urge the committee to help us because we need its help. There are scientists who argue that we should be allowed a certain amount of salmon but we do not have the finance for a scientific report. We met former scientists who worked with the Department but we do not have the financial capability to do a scientific report. We are very thankful to Elaine Delaney for the work she did.

Vice Chairman

I will hear two brief supplementary questions from Senator Ó Domhnaill and then Deputy Ó Cuív.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Ba mhaith liom cúpla pointe a dhéanamh. Tá go leor ráite ag na finnéithe sna freagraí atá tugtha acu. Fr. John Joe Duffy and I agree on this issue. Most of the fish being caught on our shores are exported whole packed to other countries for processing. The added value processing takes place away from our shores, and that is wrong. In terms of developing a fish product, I bought grilled peppered mackerel in a supermarket in Donegal a few days ago. I am convinced the mackerel was caught here but it was not processed in this country. The added value processing took place outside the Thirty-two Counties, and that is wrong. I know a good deal of mackerel is being caught in Scotland. The country of origin of the mackerel I bought was Ireland but when I checked I discovered the processing did not take place here.

There are elements on which we could do some work. In terms of Bord Iascaigh Mhara, BIM, some of the money available for added value processing of fish should be spent on islands.

On the reported figures for salmon caught in Ireland, which were presented to the north Atlantic wild salmon conservation conference held in Edinburgh last month, and I refer to the Department, Inland Fisheries Ireland and BIM figures, the provisional catch for 2011 given in the report were 87 tonnes of which 32 tonnes were caught commercially, and 55 tonnes caught through angling harvest. That was weighed against the confirmed catch in 2010, which was 99 tonnes, therefore, there was a drop of 12 tonnes.

If we examine the Department's reported catch and release figures, and this is where the angling catch comes in, the figure was 12,732 salmon. The estimated unreported catch was 9 tonnes for 2011. Those are the figures the Department is using.

Commercial activity is still taking place, and it is legitimate in the draft net sector, but if we compare that to the figures Scotland gave at the same conference, and it has conservation measures in place, most of Scotland's conservation measures are voluntary. A fisheries Bill is being prepared by the Scottish Parliament. It is consulting with the fisheries sector and following the consultation they will bring the Bill before Parliament but the provisional catch of salmon in Scotland last year was 169 tonnes. That is approximately double the catch in Ireland. It does not give a breakdown in terms of whether that salmon was caught by rod or for commercial purposes. In 2010, the catch in Scotland was 179.9 tonnes and the provisional estimate for last year on salmon caught and released was 67,989. That catch and release is generating a tourism income from an angling point of view because the angler is catching for fun. It is a sport and therefore if it is a sport, why not release the salmon? Those figures can be used to present an argument but this committee, and the sub-committee, have a role, and it is important that we would speak with BIM and Inland Fisheries Ireland. This may necessitate inviting them to appear before the committee again. I am aware there is a roll-over between this and the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications, but after the meeting that has taken place today, we should circulate the agenda and report of our discussion to the CEOs of BIM and Inland Fisheries Ireland and extend an invitation to them to come before this committee also to discuss how we can have a joined-up approach that will include stakeholders, all of the island and coastal communities and the work done by the Donegal island committee. We must examine how we can pull all of this together and come up with a sensible pilot plan for the three to five years. I agree with what Deputy Ó Cuív has said with regard to a brick wall arising and to groups feeling we are going down the wrong route. However, it is up to us to ensure that we have the scientific knowledge and backup available to justify our argument. That should not be left to a voluntary organisation, whether it is Donegal, Cork or Kerry. It should be up to us in the Oireachtas to do that work, in conjunction with the Department, which should fund it.

The expertise exists. We have the Marine Institute, BIM, the IFI, the marine section of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and the fisheries section of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. We need to pull all of these together and perhaps that is something the Chairman and the members of the sub-committee will have to do. Today's discussion has been very important and the contributions of Fr. Duffy, Mr. Early and Mr. O'Brien were significant. The discussion demonstrates that the decisions taken in 2006 and in November 2008, in particular, on area 6A may not have worked. This is something we need to speak to the Commission about. There is over exploitation of two species now as a result of the decision taken. Those people who were fishing for salmon, even those who took the hardship fund, are now exploiting a resource that will be depleted. Am I correct in saying that crab and lobster will be depleted in a couple of years time?

Mr. John O’Brien

The lobster is in serious difficulty now.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

That has been identified here today and negates the scientific evidence presented back in 2008, which was considered right then but is now proven wrong. We have identified something today that is important.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I will try to be brief because a lot has been said on this. We should clarify the boats in question for the committee, because the witnesses speak of them in terms of metres. Is it correct that the 20 boats with potting licences are basically what we would call a currach, in other words an open boat with no cabin and an outboard engine?

Mr. John O’Brien

Yes.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I used to keep a model of a currach in my office to bring into Cabinet to explain what I was talking about. I used bring it in and ask whether they thought a currach could fish out in the deep sea like the super trawlers. I used explain that if these fishermen in currachs could do that, they were supermen. A second matter I used find a problem when debating this issue was a principle scientists and conservationists always fell back on, namely, the precautionary principle.

Based on the precautionary principle, none of us would get up in the morning. We would even be concerned about staying in bed, because we could fall out of the bed and kill ourselves. The precautionary principle can put a stop to doing anything because of the possible downside to every human activity. Whenever those making the regulations cannot get the strong figures they want, they always use the argument that European legislation calls on them to apply the precautionary principle. Then, when the fishermen or other groups go to Europe, they will be told that Europe did not tell the Irish Government to do a specific thing or to designate a particular bog. However, when something is not designated, they write to the Minister and point out that he did not designate whatever it was and point out that under the precautionary principle he should have done this, that or the other. My experience is that when groups go over, those in charge in Europe talk one way, and then write in a different manner to the Minister on the precautionary principle. NGOs are particularly adept at using the precautionary principle as an excuse for stopping everything. In other words, if there is any way a practice might do damage, they stop it. Every practice has the potential to do damage in some way and, therefore, they can stop everything they want stopped. This is another issue we need to tease out.

I would add another group to the list of groupings we should bring in to the committee. European Union officials should come in here to explain their views on these issues. They seem to hunt with the hare and hunt with the hounds, whichever suits them, on these issues. It is important we get a fix on their position on whether there is a constraint from Europe. My experience has been that there were more constraints than they let on but they always wanted us to make the up-front decision, while they were prodding our backs telling us to do it.

There is another issue worth examining. When Europe was trying to ban drift netting, instructions were issued with regard to what to do with any salmon caught. What is a salmon worth if it could be caught and sold? Would it be €50 or €100?

Mr. John O’Brien

Is the Deputy asking what is the price for a salmon?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Yes.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

One cannot get a wild salmon.

Mr. John O’Brien

At that time they would say "We don't know". At the time a salmon would be worth €20, while an angling salmon would be worth €700.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

That was the argument. What I want to know is whether, if fishermen have not caught 1,000 salmon, angling income has increased by €700,000 for the State? I do not believe it has. I live on a great angling lake, Lough Corrib, but I suspect that angling income in the State is not that different from what it was at the time, despite the fact we were promised the bonanza of this huge multiplier effect. I do not see the salmon at the top of the lake where I live. We were into automation long before anybody else. In Cong Abbey the monks had a fishing house and they used drop the bait through a slit in the floor and the salmon would come for the bait and a bell attached to the system would ring and a monk would come and catch the salmon. So, we were into automation of salmon fishing long before others.

This is an issue that will only be resolved by study and examination and by discussion with all of the groups with an input into it, including three Departments, in particular, the Department with responsibility for the Gaeltacht and the islands, because, as confirmed to me in response to a parliamentary question, that Department has overall responsibility for island policy. The Department with responsibility for the marine area must also be included, although it has nothing to do with salmon. Third, the Department with responsibility for natural resources must be involved, because it has total responsibility for salmon in the sea and rivers. I am not a member of this committee, but I suggest that if a sub-group is to be established, that group should have representatives from the three relevant Departments on it. Will that be considered? We need to get out of the silos on this issue and need to take a holistic approach and bring in everybody connected with the issue in order to get a holistic answer to the problem on the islands. I request informally that this be considered.

Vice Chairman

That can be clarified. The sub-group can bring in as many groups as it wants, but the sub-group itself must comprise just members of this committee. However, that can be clarified.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Was a group ever set up between different committees? That would be a new challenge.

Vice Chairman

Does Mr. Early wish to conclude?

Mr. Jerry Early

I thank the committee for its time. I feel this has been a very beneficial discussion. We welcome the positive feedback we have got from all the Deputies and Senators. Over six long years we have been told many times, by many different people, that we are wasting our time. We cannot waste time. Deputy Ó Cuív, who was probably a Minister at the time, was one of the few Deputies who stood up and supported us on that bleak October day. Much water has passed under the bridge since but I am pleased he attended this meeting as a non-committee member and expressed his views so strongly and so eloquently. Members made many valid and strong points that the committee can explore.

We are under no illusions that we are going to come up against powerful enemies, as Deputy Ó Cúiv stated. We will never underestimate the fact that not everyone sees the situation as we see it. We are six years down the road. We are also a resolute group. We are not going to go away. We will fight our corner in this House or whatever other house it may be. We have to do this because we are the custodians of our islands and we cannot sit by and let this happen. If we do that, we will not only fail the people of the day but the generations to come. We strongly implore that the committee will examine this issue. We can take it so far and we will go wherever we have to go. However, we beg the committee to examine every possible avenue open to all Members and all Departments.

I thank the committee for its time and members' comments. It is much appreciated. None of us thought we would get the opportunity to sit before the joint committee. We have come a long way and there is much further to go. However, today is a step in the right direction and we look forward to working with the committee. On behalf of the Donegal islands, I thank the members for their time.

Vice Chairman

I thank Fr. Duffy, Mr. Early and Mr. O'Brien for making such valuable contributions. We have been given much food for thought. I am sure the sub-committee which will be set up will play a large part in progressing the issue. I thank the witnesses.

The joint committee adjourned until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 10 July 2012.