Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Mar 2023

Forest Policy and Strategy (Resumed): Discussion

Apologies have been received from Deputy Carthy. I remind members, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery to turn off their mobile phones. The purpose of today's meeting is to resume our examination of forestry policy and strategy. The committee will hear from representatives of Coillte. All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

Witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that witnesses have full defence in any defamation action arising from anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses, outside the proceedings held by the committee, of any matter arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online in this committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurance in relation to participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts and members should be mindful of this when they are contributing.

The committee will hear from the following representatives of Coillte: Ms Bernie Gray, chair; Ms Imelda Hurley, chief executive; and Mr. Mark Carlin, managing director of Coillte Forest. I welcome the witnesses to the hearing. I call on Ms Gray to make her opening statement.

Ms Bernie Gray

I thank the Chair and the committee members for the invitation to today's meeting. We welcome the opportunity to discuss Coillte’s forestry strategic vision in more detail. Joining me are Imelda Hurley, CEO of Coillte; and Mark Carlin, managing director of Coillte Forest, who the committee has met before.

We will discuss the need to create new forests in Ireland and Coillte’s response to this challenge. We will also discuss our ambitions to balance and deliver the multiple benefits of forests for the environment, the Irish economy and the people of Ireland. I will keep my opening statement to the point, as I appreciate the importance of leaving as much time as possible for discussion. As the committee knows, Coillte is the largest forestry company in Ireland. It plays a key role in producing sustainably grown wood products, protecting and enhancing biodiversity, tackling climate change and contributing to a climate resilient economy. In light of recent concerns expressed about Coillte’s agreement with the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund and Gresham House, I would like to clarify why the Irish Strategic Forestry Fund was established, Coillte’s approach to afforestation and how Coillte will contribute to Ireland’s climate action plan.

When Coillte was before the committee in December 2022, it was unfortunately not possible to confirm details relating to the Irish Strategic Forestry Fund because it had not yet been finalised. There were third parties involved in the fund, who had not yet executed agreements. It was, therefore, not possible for Coillte to disclose details relating to the fund, other than to confirm that the initiative was at an advanced stage. My colleagues provided as much information as possible on the day. We always aim to answer the committee’s questions in an open and transparent manner and to the best of our ability, and we will do so today.

As we know, creating new forests is integral to the delivery of Ireland’s climate action targets. It has been well reported that the Government’s national afforestation target is to increase forest cover in Ireland from 11.6% to 18%. Achieving this target will necessitate the creation of 450,000 ha of new forests. It is an ambitious target, which will require a significant increase in planting. The current run rate of planting new forests in Ireland is approximately 2,000 ha per year and the country is currently targeting 8,000 ha per year to move towards achieving 18% forest cover. It is, therefore, crucial that all stakeholders in the forestry sector play a role in meeting Ireland’s afforestation targets. Farmers, as the largest landowners, will be at the centre of delivering this national afforestation target. However, given the scale of the challenge, private forestry companies and Coillte will also need to play a role.

In April 2022 we launched our forestry strategic vision. This vision is focused on delivering the multiple benefits from Coillte’s forests for the environment, nature, biodiversity and recreation, while continuing to deliver for the forest and wood products industry.

Against the backdrop of the current climate emergency, the programme for Government, and our shareholders' expectations that Coillte will get back into afforestation, creating new forests is a core part of our strategic vision. Our ambition is to enable the creation of 100,000 ha of new forests by 2050, half of which will be native woodland. For context, this equals approximately 20% of the Government’s national afforestation target.

Coillte's 100,000 ha target is a long-term target up to 2050, and will take many initiatives to deliver.

I apologise to Ms Gray, but we need to suspend the meeting to attend a vote in the Dáil. We will resume as quickly as possible. That is the problem with democratic procedures.

Sitting suspended at 5.40 p.m. and resumed at 6.19 p.m.

I invite Ms Grady to continue her opening statement.

Ms Bernie Gray

It is important to note that Coillte has experience of delivering afforestation at scale. Since being established in 1989, Coillte has enabled the creation of approximately 100,000 ha of new forests. However, since 2003 Coillte has not been involved in afforestation at scale because it was precluded from directly receiving afforestation premiums due to EU state aid rules.

As a result, it has not been economically feasible for Coillte to buy land directly for afforestation since 2003.

Our preferred option is always to do direct afforestation ourselves. In order to address this, we made a submission to the European Commission in 2019 in respect of changing the state aid rules that preclude public bodies from receiving afforestation premiums. It was clear that any changes to state aid guidelines would involve a lengthy process, with no certainty of outcome. As a consequence, in the near term we had to explore options other than directly buying land ourselves. As such, we were looking to address the two main challenges to Coillte carrying out afforestation, namely, accessing the premiums to which we have referred and securing the necessary capital.

Those options are based on working with public bodies to identify publicly owned land suitable for afforestation and accessing investment from private sources. As I said, however, many different initiatives will be needed to deliver on our target of 100,000 ha in the long term. The first of our current initiatives is therefore the use of public lands for afforestation. As a first important step, we are working with Bord na Móna to enable the natural regeneration of native woodland on cutaway bog, which, if successful, could extend to approximately 1,500 ha of new forests. Our second initiative is the creation of new native woodlands. Those are being realised by the Nature Trust, which, as the committee will know, is a not-for-profit entity which works with organisations that want to deliver social good by providing funding for new native woodlands. The Nature Trust was set up in 2021. To date, it has raised funds that, when deployed, would be capable of creating 625 ha of new native woodlands. Third, we are looking at the creation of mixed woodlands, which is being realised by the Irish strategic forestry fund. Those forests will be a mixture of productive conifers and native broadleaves, which is fully in line with our ambition to deliver the multiple benefits of forestry.

The Irish strategic forestry fund is a collaboration between Coillte, the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, which is State-owned and part of the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, and Gresham House. ISIF is the cornerstone investor, with a €25 million investment. It is important to note that it is the investors, through the fund, that own the land. ISIF's capital will complement other Irish and international capital. The Irish strategic forestry fund is just one of many initiatives that will be required to deliver on our afforestation ambitions. The concept of forestry funds in Ireland is not new, with forestry funds actively operating in Ireland for the past 30 years. To put this in perspective, the total area of new forest planted through the Irish strategic forestry fund will be approximately 3,500 ha, with a target deployment period of five years. That equates to less than 1% of the State's overall long-term target of 450,000 ha.

As previously mentioned, there will be many different initiatives required to deliver on our target. As part of considering further initiatives, the Government has asked Coillte to examine how it can work more closely with farmers as well as potentially acquiring land directly, subject to state aid rules. In this regard, we are aware of recent changes to state aid guidelines and are reviewing these new guidelines and engaging with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on the potential for public bodies to be able to access afforestation premiums. These new rules could potentially deal with the current state aid challenge. It is important to note, however, that if the new guidelines mean Coillte will be able to access premiums, there remains the challenge of the scale of capital required.

The extent of the challenge for Ireland to deliver an additional 450,000 ha of new forests is immense. It clearly needs much more discussion and debate among all the key stakeholders to determine how best it can be achieved. It will require clear policies and tough decisions. It has to be clear to everybody that it will not be easy. One of the key challenges is the availability of land, which will be a critical enabler. Coillte's objective is to be a helpful player in the country's efforts to realise the ambitious but necessary targets. We are committed to working collaboratively with all the key stakeholders, and in that regard we will not be found wanting.

Against this backdrop, it is important to reflect on not only the scale of the challenge but also the significant opportunity for the forestry and wood products sector to deliver solutions to the climate emergency. We have developed a comprehensive strategic vision that, among other things, will see us managing our forests for greater carbon capture, delivering valuable wood products that will decarbonise the built environment, enhancing biodiversity and creating more recreational spaces for people to enjoy.

I thank the Chairman. We look forward to engaging with the committee.

I thank Ms Gray. We now go to Members. I will give each Member ten minutes in the first round. If Members want a second opportunity to contribute, we can arrange that later. Senator Boyhan will be first. He will followed be Deputy Fitzmaurice.

Ms Gray, Ms Hurley and Mr. Carlin are very welcome. We had a fairly robust exchange at the previous meeting. In that context, we all recognise that we have a job to do. They are our guests and they are very welcome.

I have just three or four questions and I will keep them directed to Ms Gray's opening statement rather than straying beyond that because that is fair and reasonable. I will put the questions to Ms Gray as they occur to me.

Pulling up on some of the commentary in Ms Gray's opening statement, she talks about Coillte's ambitions to enable the creation of 100,000 ha of new forest by 2050, half of which would be native woodland. That is a very ambitious target. I presume there are incremental reviews of all that. There has to be. Could Ms Gray set out the different initiatives Coillte plans in order to deliver that target? She has touched on some of them, but there will be many synergies and many ways in which Coillte might deliver. Ultimately, it has now set itself this target of 100,000 ha by 2050, which is not that long away, in terms of growing forestry. Maybe we will take just one question at a time. Ms Gray might touch on that one first.

Ms Bernie Gray

As set out in my statement, our preferred approach to achieving afforestation is direct investment in forests and direct acquisition of lands. The current change in state aid rules may open up that avenue to us sooner than we would have expected. When we were faced with the prospect of not having access to state aid but recognising that Ireland is in the middle of a climate emergency, our objective, as the national forestry company, was to support the nation and the people of Ireland in addressing the challenges of that emergency, which is why we established the Irish strategic forestry fund. It did two things. It gave us access to capital and enabled us to acquire land when state aid was not available. We expect that in the future we will focus on public bodies and our relationship with them. Our current project, as the committee will know, is with Bord na Móna in terms of the restoration of peatlands for that purpose. We expect that if the direct afforestation route becomes available, we will invest significantly in that. We also have the nature capital fund, to which we referred in our last discussion with the committee, which is for the purpose of native woodlands. They are the existing avenues we propose to use.

We are also in engagement with the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, to see how we can support farmers. When you look at landholding in Ireland, it is clear that farmers are the major landholders. We are not. We have 7% of the land, but farmers have significantly more than that.

I thank Ms Gray for that. I am conscious of our time.

Ms Gray might follow on regarding this, not now but at a later date. The IFA is interested in this. Its representatives are here regularly talking about it. I was not fully aware that Coillte was actively engaging with the IFA. The engagement has to be welcomed.

Ms Gray said Coillte's preferred option is to do the afforestation itself. Can she tell members what impediments she foresees? She mentioned the European Commission and the state aid rules that preclude public bodies from receiving afforestation premiums. What other impediments exist?

Ms Bernie Gray

The two key challenges are land and capital. Even with access to premiums, there is still a significant challenge for us. The cost of increasing afforestation by 100,000 ha is about €2 billion. It has to be said that it is over a long period, but the issue concerns where the capital will come from. This is a national objective, not just Coillte's. Our meeting of our objective represents only a fraction of what is required to meet the overall national objective. The challenges for us are mirrored in the other sectors that also have to play a role. Capital is the major impediment but the availability of land is another.

What is the latest on state aid rules? Do we know whether the application has been made to the EU yet? We heard it is being prepared but have not had confirmation or sight of it. Maybe others have a different view.

Ms Imelda Hurley

There are a few points to be made on state aid. The first concerns Coillte's potential access to state aid under new state aid rules issued earlier this year. Specifically in regard to that, we are engaging with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to ascertain its view on whether Coillte will be able to access grants and premiums. I believe the Senator's question was broadly about the forestry programme.

That it would not be able to access.

Ms Imelda Hurley

That it may be able to access.

There was a question on the final view on what the new state aid rules will allow. We await an update on that.

Coillte is awaiting an update but what is the Department telling it?

Ms Imelda Hurley

We have engaged with the Department.

That has been said. What is the Department telling Coillte? We know there is engagement but where are we regarding state aid?

Ms Imelda Hurley

It is more possible than it was before, but the issue concerns whether that is enough to get it over the line.

Is that what the Department is telling Coillte?

Ms Imelda Hurley

It is saying there are certainly changes to be welcomed. A legal determination will need to be made to be specific on whether Coillte can definitely access state aid.

It is now March and this all affects planting. The timing is an issue. That is enough on that.

I want to turn now to the Irish Strategic Forestry Fund. As has been confirmed, this involves a collaboration between Coillte and the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, which is state-owned. It also involves the NTMA and Gresham House. When did Coillte inform the Government of its plans regarding the Gresham House investment? When I refer to the Government, I mean a Minister, a Department or the Government itself.

Ms Bernie Gray

I wrote to the Minister on 16 December, the day after the fund had been established, to confirm it was in place. That was the first formal notification to the Minister. However, we have ongoing dialogue with the Department officials. That dialogue has been with the Department over the past two years but the earliest formal notification to the Minister was the day after the establishment of the fund.

That is a direct response. I appreciate Ms Gray's directness. There is no ambiguity about it. Was there any informal discussion or an informal indication to a Minister or the Government that this was the route Coillte was pursuing?

Ms Bernie Gray

As we said, we launched our vision last April. We were clear at that time. We engaged in extensive consultation with Members of the Houses, all stakeholders, Departments and our shareholders, the outcome being that achieving 100,000 ha would require many initiatives, one of which would be a forestry fund.

Was there any informal discussion on the Gresham House investment, on which a deal has been done? That is not to pass any judgment on the deal at this point. Did Coillte indicate informally to the Government or any member thereof that it was going to pursue this route?

Ms Bernie Gray

We were clear we were going to pursue this route-----

With Gresham House?

Ms Bernie Gray

Not necessarily with Gresham House, but the principle of a forestry fund was needed to give us access to land and capital. We had ongoing dialogue with the Department.

Did Coillte get the impression it was very supportive of it?

Ms Bernie Gray

It would not have been its preferred option, no more than it was ours.

But they told us that after the event. I am not passing judgment on the Department or Coillte but just trying to establish the sequence.

Ms Bernie Gray

We were considering getting back into direct afforestation in 2019. That is the point at which we made the submission to the EU on state aid, simply because it was our preferred option. If we were to wait in the middle of an emergency for an outcome with an unclear resolution regarding the timeline, we would not be doing our job for the Irish people.

I get that point. Let me wrap up on the question. Formally, the notification was on 16 December 2022 but there were informal engagements, conversations or little chats to the effect that Coillte was doing something of this type. That is grand; I am not passing judgment on it. Can we move on?

Ms Bernie Gray

It was not just with the Department and Minister. We engaged with all stakeholders on the same basis.

I got that point. I thank Ms Gray for it.

Could the delegates tell members about the 2022 shareholder letter of expectation? Ms Gray was clearly fully aware of it. What is the current status of the dividend policy review? I understand there is to be such a review. It was set out in the 2022 shareholder letter of expectation. Can Ms Gray indicate when the review will happen? It is suggested that it might take months, or possibly until the end of the year. Ms Gray might talk about the dividends briefly and then tell us the timeline for the dividend policy review.

Ms Bernie Gray

We have a clearly established dividend policy, published in our annual report and accounts every year and agreed with the Department. For the past two years, we have achieved extremely good dividends. We had the highest one ever two years ago. The average, bearing in mind that the business is cyclical, has been about €13 million per year over the past five years. We have not conducted a review of the dividend policy as yet but will do so later this year. In our view the dividend policy should be aligned with our strategy. The issue is whether we consider dividends just in terms of financial outturn or in terms of the multiple benefits Coillte can deliver for people, the climate and the wood industry. Our view is that we need to consider them with a broader base that does not just focus on the financials. This is because Coillte has a responsibility to all stakeholders in the management of its assets. It is much more than a financial issue. We hope to conclude the dividend policy review this year after discussion with our shareholders. We hope to commence that process very shortly with the two shareholders.

I thank Ms Gray for her engagement and very concise answers, which I find very helpful.

I welcome the guests. Since we have only ten minutes each, I will do the same as Senator Boyhan and ask questions quickly. Ms Gray said increasing afforestation by 100,000 ha would cost about €2 billion. That is about €8,163 per acre. I presume Ms Gray is counting on the Government giving Coillte the grant for planting.

Ms Bernie Gray

Yes, but it depends on the price of land.

Ms Gray gave a cost of €2 billion. I have just calculated that if Coillte were to buy and plant the land, it would work out at €8,163 per acre.

Am I correct in saying that Coillte bought land yesterday with Gresham House for €8,000 per acre?

Ms Bernie Gray

Yesterday-----

Did Gresham House not buy land in County Roscommon?

Mr. Mark Carlin

No. There is only one deal being done at this stage.

I am sorry. Maybe my information is incorrect.

Mr. Mark Carlin

There may be ongoing negotiations, but not closed deals.

Was there a deal done in Tipperary?

Mr. Mark Carlin

Yes, there was a deal done in Tipperary.

Was that land being bid on in July of last year?

Mr. Mark Carlin

That land was bid on in the summer time of 2022 by Gresham House.

The deal is not with Coillte and Gresham House.

Mr. Mark Carlin

The deal for the Castle Waller land is, I think, what Deputy Fitzmaurice is referring to. The deal is an acquisition by Gresham House.

Mr. Mark Carlin

At the time that Gresham House was negotiating for that deal, it was acquired by it with the intent of folding it into the Irish Strategic Forestry Fund, ISFF, if and when that was finalised.

It is in under Coillte's portfolio now, is it?

Mr. Mark Carlin

Yes, if it had not been finalised, it would have folded into the existing portfolio.

What we found unusual, to be honest about it, was that it went through the Land Registry on 23 December 2022-----

Mr. Mark Carlin

The sale closed on 20 December 2022.

-----and Coillte was here on 13 December. The announcement of the deal was on 16 December, and this went through Land Registry, which we thought very unusual. Bidding had to be done six months before that, and it was very coincidental, from the committee members' point of view. Would Mr. Carlin agree?

Mr. Mark Carlin

It is a very fair question, and I would like to explain. At that stage, in the summer of 2022, the principals of the fund, in terms of ISFF, Coillte and Gresham House, were moving towards setting up a fund that would involve many different things such as setting up a fund name, trying to get investors on board, and also trying to create an early pipeline. When the Castle Waller deal opportunity came up - it was a very significant deal, and very rare that 500 ha would be in the marketplace - Gresham House made the decision to acquire it, and did so with the intent of folding it into the fund, if and when it was finalised. If the fund had not been established, then it would have taken that into existing portfolio. It was done with the intent of getting off to a good start, if and when the fund was finalised.

On the last day that Coillte was in, it was stated that it was in negotiations. The negotiations must have wrapped up fairly quickly when, three days later after this meeting, Coillte was able to finalise everything. I know Coillte stated the negotiations were at an advanced stage. As a committee, we said we would have liked if Coillte had come in to update us before it finalised anything, but that was not forthcoming. How come?

Ms Imelda Hurley

If I can stand back for a moment, the reality of coming into the committee on 13 December was that we did everything possible to try to have the fund finalised, such that we would have been in a position to speak openly in terms of the Irish Strategic Forestry Fund. Unfortunately, we found ourselves in a position where the fund was not finalised. We were at a very advanced stage, and we shared as much information as we could on that day. There were third parties involved: the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, and indeed Gresham House - a listed entity, with all of the regulation that goes around that. We were not in a position to speak about it.

I understand. That is fair enough. However, Coillte was asked by the public representatives on this committee to come in and address us before it was finalised, but that was not done. Is that correct?

Ms Imelda Hurley

In terms of that, the governance required was for the board of Coillte to approve the deal, as such.

This committee does not matter.

Ms Imelda Hurley

This is a very important committee, and we came in on 13 December when it was difficult and we were not in a position to disclose all of the information that we would, of course, have wanted to disclose. I want to assure Deputy Fitzmaurice that we consider this committee to be very important.

I want to try and keep going. Ms Gray said that Coillte was concerned about Ireland meeting its targets. How is it that at the end of 2022 or in 2023 Coillte got this burst of concernment when in 2016 and 2017, Ireland still had the same figures and there did not seem to be a bother about it? Could Ms Gray explain this to me whether Coillte is concerned about Ireland's climate targets? My understanding on the Coillte-Gresham House deal is that there is going to be 7,500 ha or 8,000 ha of standing forest. They are already accounted for; they are not going to help Ireland in its mitigation. Let us not be trumping the card that it is going to help Ireland. That is already accounted for. There will be 3,500 ha or 4,000 ha. Can you explain why Coillte bought standing forest? It is not going to be of any benefit that way to Coillte, or to Ireland in its mitigation, as it is already accounted for. How come there was not a big concern before that?

I will ask a few other questions together and Mr. Carlin might take a few of them as well. On the peatlands, it was said that Coillte was working on 1,500 ha with Bord na Móna. My understanding - and correct me if I am wrong - is that there was something mentioned before about 40,000 ha or maybe more. What is the status of that? When you take the trees out of that and rewet it, that is 40,000 ha less of Coillte's inventory. What is the story with that?

Mr. Carlin will probably be able to address this question, as I think he lived in Roscommon at one time. Coillte has 700 acres, which Mr. Carlin would be familiar with, in Mote Park, right beside Roscommon town. There is a group there, the Mote Park Conservation Group, which would have worked with Coillte down through the years. The group is not opposed to spruce, as long as it is done in a proper way. There is also the red squirrel. The group would have noticed over the last number of years that Galway was handling it - Mr. Carlin might be familiar with this - and then it moved to Mullingar. There seems to be a breakdown in terms of what is happening. If I furnished him with the details, would Mr. Carlin - and I am asking him directly - meet those people? We need to keep relationships going in areas where the community is working with Coillte. Would Mr. Carlin meet them to resolve those issues?

Ms Gray gave a figure which works out at €8,163, so Coillte is banking on the State being able to give it the grant for the afforestation. It will get the grant for planting, but the premium is probably what it will be looking for. Does Ms Gray see why farmers are concerned now? Land that was €5,000 to €6,000 - we know the price of land - has now jumped up a few cogs. There is a fear among the farming community. The north west, the west, the south west and parts of the midlands - when you look at afforestation and Government policy and not alone Coillte's, which is about a fifth of what the Government is proposing - are going to have about 1.2 million acres of forestry if the plan everyone is looking at goes ahead. That area amounts to a third of the country, where you are going to have 100% of that. This is going to nail down communities. It is going to basically put landowners out of production because they will not be able to compete, and it is going to diminish communities. Has Coillte a concern about that, or will it give us an assurance that every county is going to get an equal amount of this, whether it is 5% or 10%? Will every county get its bit? As Coillte is well aware, there are some counties in the west that are heavily forested at the moment. Will Coillte ensure every county or area, whether it is the Golden Vale or it is Connemara, will get an equal amount and that one part of the country will not be lumbered with all of this?

Ms Bernie Gray

The level of afforestation in Ireland is low, relative to Europe. Ireland has the lowest level of forest cover. The level of forest concentration in Ireland currently is not just on the west coast, but Wicklow, as a county, has one of the highest levels of forest cover, on the east coast.

The other point I would make is that the main landowners in the country are farmers.

The forestry programme launched last year was intended to incentivise farmers to afforest their land. If that happened, that would reduce-----

I just want to be clear. The forestry programme that was announced last year is not yet in place.

Ms Bernie Gray

I know that.

It amounts to €1.3 billion but it is not in place. It is not for farmers alone, it is for companies, and it probably will be for Coillte.

Ms Bernie Gray

No, but it does give a higher incentive to farmers.

Granted, but, as Coillte will be well aware and it went through this when the representatives were before the committee previously, that be it for felling licences or planting licences there was a major problem and a lot of farmers walked away from it.

Ms Bernie Gray

Yes.

Let us not put it on the farmer. I believe a lot of farmers are willing to plant part of their land, be it 1 acre or two or whatever. If farmers wanted to plant this minute there is not a place to put an application in and there probably will not be until halfway or three quarters of the way into this year. That needs to be clarified.

Ms Bernie Gray

Yes, but it is a long-term programme and that is intended. Our focus is not just on this year but on how we achieve the overall target. From our point of view, we will work with farmers to see how we can support them in using their land for that purpose at a point where the programme has been approved and is operational.

I am sorry to interrupt Ms Gray. Some of the old agreements between farmers and Coillte are still dragging on. Am I correct that those issues have not been resolved?

Ms Bernie Gray

Yes.

Good relationships need to be built up to basically resolve those issues so there might be a new relationship built.

Ms Bernie Gray

Yes. We are very conscious of that. The farm partnership model that existed in the past was too fractured and complex. It made it difficult for everyone to both understand what would accrue as a result of it and then to administer it. It is clear that as a model, that is not the way we can operate going forward.

Can we go through the rest of the questions?

Ms Bernie Gray

To go back to the overall question, the Deputy asked why the degree of urgency was not identified by Coillte in terms of afforestation as a means of addressing climate change in 2016 and 2017. First, there was a limited awareness in Ireland overall of where we were at in the climate change challenge at that point in time. Second, Coillte at that time was in a poor financial state. In 2017, we had a debt of €153 million. Since the,n under careful stewardship, the company has turned itself around under restructuring to the point where it has paid maximum dividends to the State over the past two years. That performance has put Coillte in a position where it can now consider afforestation and taking on debt if it needs to, in addition to state aid, together with private capital to see how afforestation can be achieved. However, it was not in that position in 2016 or 2017.

Did Coillte not make an operating profit of €98.3 million this year, going by what I have googled?

Ms Bernie Gray

No.

Then Google is wrong.

Ms Imelda Hurley

In terms of Coillte's profits, we tend to look at them as an average over a number of years because prices go up and down considerably. The average profit over five years to 2021 was approximately €79 million. To come back to the specific question as to why Coillte is now looking to get into afforestation, as a team we spent much time engaging with the board and the Department to determine what Coillte's role should be to support the programme for Government, support climate action targets and to help to enable solutions. It was very clear there was an expectation on Coillte to bring its skills and expertise forward and look to try to be part, but only part, of the solution in terms of the 450,000 ha of new forest that will be needed.

I want to try to get to Mr. Carlin. Could Ms Hurley explain where the 7,500 ha or 8,000 ha of standing forest that Coillte bought, such as in County Tipperary or whatever, come in because that is already accounted for? That will not help our mitigation. Does Ms Hurley agree?

Ms Imelda Hurley

I am very happy to explain the rationale. Our interest in the Irish strategic forestry fund is very much around enabling new forests, so afforestation. In terms of setting up a fund the types of investors that are being attracted and are needed are long-term investors and, therefore, they are normally pension funds. Effectively as part of the risk management of any fund in forestry, we would look for a distribution of age classes so not just new forests but also looking to have some immature forests so that the pension fund can ultimately get a return on an annual basis.

Okay. The Minister stated to us that he believes Coillte will change its model. Has the Department talked to Coillte about that? There was a lot of backlash from the Gresham House fund. Is Coillte looking at a different model now or is it staying on 100,000 ha under that model? I just want a quick yes-no answer on that because I want to let Mr. Carlin in.

Ms Imelda Hurley

What Coillte is now looking at is whether the new state aid rules that have been issued will allow us to access grants and premia so that would change it. We are also looking at how to support farmers. I will hand over to Mr. Carlin.

Mr. Mark Carlin

I will answer the questions on peatlands and Mote Park. The Deputy is correct that the last time we appeared before the committee we discussed the area of peatlands on the Coillte estate. Coillte has approximately 120,00 ha or 130,000 ha of deep peat that was planted. We do not plant those areas any more but that is the forest we have. Coillte has done extensive research on that in terms of what to do next with those forests. It is a matter of rewetting, rewilding or replanting. We have identified approximately 30,000 ha that is an emission risk form a carbon point of view. As peatlands are drained, there is an emission from that. We need to look at redesigning those forests. Some of them will be redesigned by removing the trees completely and rewetting where rewetting can be done. Sometimes it cannot be and where it cannot we will look at removing the existing conifer crops and rewilding to create a semi-natural wilderness with the likes of birch and elder and things like that as well. On other areas of peatlands where trees are growing well such as spruce and pine, we will continue to grow forests similar to that because what we get the benefit of the wood from that for construction as well. We are trying to come up with a mixed strategy to deal with peatlands in terms of rewet, rewild and replant as well.

I have heard there are people in Brussels today and my understanding is that it seems where we are getting caught at the moment on the new programme is there is seemingly a lot of confusion in Brussels about the rewetting and spruce or pine on peatlands. Has that matter been resolved between Coillte and the Department?

Mr. Mark Carlin

What does the Deputy mean specifically?

Brussels seems to be unhappy about the trees on the peaty ground, to put it simply, and under the new programme, officials want to see clear markers or whatever of how this will be resolved. It is my understanding based on what I am from Brussels today. Coillte has a plan of what it will do. Will that cause a problem if Coillte takes 30,000 ha of trees out and rewets the land, it will be 30,000 ha down on taking on carbon. Does that cause a problem?

Mr. Mark Carlin

Yes, it is a challenge and Coillte is trying to achieve the best carbon balance. If the right thing is to remove a forest and to rewet, it is negative in the short term from a carbon point of view. We lose the crop that sequesters the CO2 plus there is methane emission as the bog is rewetted, which is worse than CO2. What happens then is that the bog is stabilised. It stops emitting carbon and in the very long term, in 50 to 60 to 70 years, it starts to absorb CO2 again. It is a mix of doing that plus rewetting. The Deputy referred to 30,000 ha with trees removed. We would not say 30,000 ha would have trees removed for rewetting. It is a combination of rewetting and rewilding. Where we are rewilding, we will be coming back in with another forest again.

Is there 120,000 ha on peaty ground?

Mr. Mark Carlin

We have 120,000 ha on peaty ground.

Okay that is grand. Can Mr. Carlin address Mote Park as I want to let others in?

Mr. Mark Carlin

As the Deputy knows, we have worked extensively with the Mote Park community group.

They would not say that at the moment.

Mr. Mark Carlin

No, they would not at the moment and I know there are some concerns there.

Will Mr. Carlin meet them? That is all I want to know.

Mr. Mark Carlin

I will meet them absolutely and I have met them previously.

I will give Mr. Carlin the details so he can meet them because I want to let the next person in.

Mr. Mark Carlin

I am happy to do that.

I thank the speakers for attending and welcome their return. Much of the detail on what I wanted to go through has been given to Deputy Fitzmaurice, so I will not go over much of the old ground. I will address only a few of the issues.

Over half of the 100,000 ha to be planted by 2050 is to be native woodland. With regard to the requirement for 30% of woodland to be native under the existing forestry programmes, is there not a conflict given that the commercial value of the woodland to farmers will not be derived from the native woodland? Has there been no linkup with Coillte and the Department to address the fact that if they want a native woodland proportion of 50%, it is surely foolhardy to have what is being imposed on farmers?

On the strategic forestry fund, Coillte stated before Christmas, when it addressed this first, that it had €35 million in committed funding, €25 million of which was from the Irish Strategic Investment Fund. In the speakers' earlier contributions, they rightly said the investment would come from pension funds, which are very risk averse and conscious of public opinion, Government mood and anything that happens in Government circles. The overtures from the Government, to which Deputy Fitzmaurice alluded, indicate this is a short-lived project. With respect to the five years, perhaps we are not going to roll back. We have committed. While it would be wrong for Ireland to signal to corporate Europe that it would roll back on something it has committed to, what is Coillte's current position on the €35 million? Has it still got the €10 million? Have any investors said they are walking away from the project because it does not give them a long-term, 20-year investment, which is what pension funds require? Could the witnesses revert to me on where they are at with their request for funding?

I am anxious to probe the Scottish experience. Coillte has obviously considered Gresham House and the Scottish experience in great detail. The Scottish experience implies Gresham House does not really invest in the planting of forests; it buys mature or 75%-mature forests and capitalises on its purchases very quickly. It is in the business to make a profit. I admire Coillte's incentives and determination to help us to achieve our climate target but do not believe Gresham House shares its enthusiasm for Ireland's carbon targets. The delegates will probably have to agree with us in not envisaging Gresham House planting new forests here in Ireland and believing it will want the quickest return, specifically because all the indications suggest the lifetime of the project is five years.

Coillte's opening statement referred to the changes to the state aid rules. It made a submission in 2019 that was left hanging because it felt that any changes to state aid guidelines would entail a very lengthy process with no certainty of outcome. In the third-last paragraph of its opening statement, it stated it is now reviewing new guidelines and engaging with the Department. Did Coillte just start that in 2019 and say, "Feck it, we will leave it to one side and do something else." That is the way it comes across in the opening statement. Suddenly something has happened in Europe, and Coillte is probably coming to us with a belt and braces. I am conscious that I am throwing a lot at the witnesses but will come back to them as they reply.

Ms Bernie Gray

I will start and then my colleagues will contribute.

The Deputy opened by referring to pension funds' awareness of public sentiment. When we launched our strategic vision last April, we engaged in extensive consultation with all the stakeholders. We carried out several surveys of the public. The response and dialogue that emerged did not indicate there was any concern about our approach. In fact, the primary response was to ask us whether we could not do more. The response on Gresham House and what happened was unexpected because all our previous discussions and dialogue had indicated a positive response to what we were doing. That is the first point.

On the fund, whose full details will be given by Ms Hurley, we have an agreement with Gresham House that the fund will plant 12,000 ha, 3,500 ha of which will be new forest. In the same way that we have to honour our agreement, Gresham House has to honour its one, as it has outlined to the committee. Some 3,500 ha of new land will be planted.

Ms Imelda Hurley

Let me take that forward. Regarding the €35 million in capital committed, we are seeing a good level of interest in the fund and what it aims to deliver.

Is the €10 million from corporate sources still available? Has any of it fallen away after the reaction controversy?

Ms Imelda Hurley

None of it has been lost. The full €10 million is available.

Has any funding been got in addition to that?

Ms Imelda Hurley

Not to this point. There is a lot of engagement and interest, but that is where it is at. Indeed, Coillte hopes-----

Given the forestry premiums, one would imagine the sector would be very attractive to pension funds and investment houses. We are largely farmers here but take the point that the corporate world is standing back and has serious reservations. I would have expected Coillte to have more than the €10 million at this stage, the beginning of March.

Ms Imelda Hurley

We are very much in the space in which there is €35 million in committed capital.

Twenty-five million is our money, though, so there is €10 million from the corporate side. My point is that there clearly is concern about this project.

Ms Imelda Hurley

There is much interest. Every pension fund will want to do its own due diligence to determine whether it will make the investment. What I can say is that there is considerable interest at this point, remembering that the fund was only announced with cornerstone investors in January. We are in the very early days.

Notwithstanding the interest, Coillte needs to get to €200 million. Is Ms Hurley worried about getting to that point?

Ms Imelda Hurley

No. There is a five-year deployment period. We are in the very early stages of that. The focus is very much on ensuring the right, long-term capital is attracted, with reasonable expectations of returns. That is very much where this is at.

Let me deal with the question on the changes to state aid rules. Coillte had not been in a position to get grants and premiums. We do not know the outcome or determination in this regard. Back in 2019, when we were investigating how Coillte would play its part in meeting the climate action targets for afforestation, the submission was made to the EU, but Coillte is just one of very many players in terms of what happens in the EU. Therefore, there was no certainty of outcome or timing. Given the scale of the challenge ahead, we were very much in the space of trying to move forward and take the initial steps of the many required for Coillte to pay its part and ultimately enable afforestation across Ireland. Having dealt with that point, I will pass over to Mr. Carlin.

Mr. Mark Carlin

I will deal with the questions on woodlands and the Scottish experience. As part of our strategic vision, which we announced in April last year, we stated new afforestation would have a mix of 50% productive woodland and 50% native woodland. What we are trying to achieve are multiple benefits in terms of climate, nature, wood and people.

From a wood perspective, it is critically important we continue to plant spruces and pines. They are the timber we need to build our homes. We will continue to do that. From a carbon point of view, there are significant benefits to planting conifers. They grow two to three times faster than broadleaf and will, therefore, also sequester and absorb carbon dioxide two to three times faster. There is a double benefit in wood and in climate and carbon.

Native woodlands are also very important. As we have a biodiversity crisis, we need to make sure we are increasing the level of diversity in our forests. Native woodlands can add fantastic biodiversity value. From a climate point of view, although they sequester carbon slower than conifer trees, they store that carbon over a very long term. We are trying to achieve a good mix. We are absolutely committed to continue to plant productive species for wood production that will be critical for the built environment. We have a housing crisis and need to build houses sustainably.

The Scottish experience is often quoted in Ireland. We often look at Scotland as a model, in that it seems to have got afforestation right. That is fair enough. We have had several experts from Scotland visit Ireland and create various reports. Part of the success of forestry in Scotland has partly been the investor model, along with the landowner model. That is what is being facilitated in Ireland in the national forestry programme; there is a farmer and a non-farmer piece. That debate has played out over the past number of weeks in respect of whether investors in forestry is the right thing to do. That has been part of the success in Scotland, however, and Gresham House has been part of afforestation there. Our interest in this fund here is for the creation of afforestation reforests.

That is all laudable. I am conscious of time. I will home in on one final point and allow the representatives to finish on that. I will give an agricultural or, at least, a horse analogy of someone selling shares in a racehorse who wants to get €200 million and has a five-year timeline to do so. If we factor in what Coillte has from the State, which is €25 million, it currently has 17% of the €200 million it needs. Included in that 17%, the only external investment it has at present, which is still the same as it had when it came in, when it could potentially have mentioned it in December, is 5%. Coillte has a long road to climb and a very short programme of just five years. At what stage, putting on its corporate hat, does it have to get worried and state this will not work?

Ms Bernie Gray

Gresham House is a very competent asset fund manager, which is why it was selected. From our point of view, it is engaging in a process. It would not have taken on this challenge if it did not believe it could be successful. We would not have selected it if we did not think it would be successful. We have also applied to the Department for an investment of €10 million in the fund.

That is in addition to the €25 million.

Ms Bernie Gray

Exactly.

When did Coillte ask for the €10 million?

Ms Bernie Gray

In December.

Was that at the end of December?

Ms Bernie Gray

Yes.

As the public reaction unfolded, Coillte looked to the Department for €10 million.

Ms Bernie Gray

It was before the public reaction unfolded.

To finish, is Coillte worried it will not get to the €200 million?

Mr. Mark Carlin

I will make a comment on that. There are two elements to this; one is committed capital and the other is deployed capital. The challenge will be deploying the capital. We all recognise the challenge of land availability for afforestation. That is something we have to be mindful of. There is plenty of committed capital at present for the fund to start creating a pipeline and there is a lot of interest in it.

How much is the committed capital?

Mr. Mark Carlin

As the Deputy mentioned, the committed capital is €35 million.

That is the only figure we are talking about so far.

Mr. Mark Carlin

It is, but we are not concerned about attracting more committed capital into the fund. The challenge will be defined.

I appreciate Mr. Carlin's frank response but if it were me on Coillte's side, I would be worried at this stage. I wish the representatives well.

I thank the Coillte representatives for being here. As I was not at December's meeting due to a family bereavement, I will not go back to that. The Gresham House thing has been covered fairly well. The representatives will be relieved to hear I will probably not pursue that line either.

I will go back to Deputy Fitzmaurice's line of questioning and get a little more clarification on the matter of peatland and peat soil in the context of the European Commission's nature restoration proposals. The witnesses said Coillte has 120,000 ha, 30,000 ha of which may not be replantable. How much land has Coillte an eye on for planting, which may come into that category, that will never be planted now? It would probably be illogical to plant it, if it will tick a negative box down the line. How will Coillte balance the books on that? I will not tie the representatives to 30,000 ha, which I know is an approximate figure, but that is a net loss; another 30,000 ha will have to be planted to get back to square one. Will they tell me a little more about where they are with that, and where they see themselves being with it, in particular with regard to future timber targets? We will forget about carbon sequestration for a minute. It is about being able to meet timber market demands going forward.

Coupled with peat soil and restoration issues, Coillte now has a commitment to plant much more native broadleaf and a commitment to biodiversity areas with no planting. From the perspective of meeting future timber demands, how will Coillte balance that equation?

Mr. Mark Carlin

I am happy to take those questions. On peatlands, the Senator mentioned 30,000 ha being a net loss. I will again clarify that is not necessarily a net loss in forestry in Ireland. Part of the 30,000 ha will be reforested but with more native woodland to create a semi-natural wilderness. The element of the 30,000 ha that will be re-wet, which is bog restoration and deforestation, versus the element that will be rewilded is yet to be determined. We have a project under way at the moment-----

I am sorry to interrupt. Even if the European Commission had not come out with its nature restoration proposals, Coillte has replanting obligations. That land would automatically have been replanted but there is now a possibility it will not be. There has to be a loss in there somewhere. How will Coillte balance that?

Mr. Mark Carlin

I understand the question. I am building up to that but wanted to clarify that the 30,000 ha is not a net loss. We are actively working on a restoration project at present in Derryclare, County Galway. We went in with a plan but as we worked through this, our plan changed because we had to work with the site. Part of that site we thought could be re-wet now cannot. Other parts we thought could not re-wet, can be. We are feeling our way through this. We are saying 30,000 ha of that peatland forest is an emission risk and we need to deal with it. We will deal with it through re-wetting and rewilding. We will have to deal with that on a site-by-site basis.

The Deputy is correct there will be an element of forestry loss.

When Mr. Carlin says it will be re-wetted, is it correct it will be 50 years before that will be carbon positive?

Mr. Mark Carlin

It is long term, yes.

Mr. Mark Carlin

Yes.

Is that existing forestry?

Mr. Mark Carlin

It is existing forestry. When you remove-----

Does Coillte have much virgin land on its books that may fall into the same category? This is land that may have been targeted for planting but that now may not be possible.

Mr. Mark Carlin

No. We have approximately 40,000 ha of deep peat on our estate that is not planted and will not be planted.

Was it targeted for planting?

Mr. Mark Carlin

No, it would never have been targeted for planting. It would have been unproductive to do so and clearly now, from a climate point of view, we would not plant that.

Why would Coillte have acquired land that was never going to be targeted for forestry planting?

Mr. Mark Carlin

That land would have come across with the national estate at the time. This land is largely blanket bog in the west of Ireland, for example, mountain tops that would not be planted. It would have been impossible to plant that. Even when we were planting peatlands, we would not have planted these areas. Some of them are now very valuable from a biodiversity point of view and we absolutely would not plant them. It is an element of the 30,000 ha we want to redesign. We have to work through this site by site. We need to be cognisant of the fact that re-wetting is a very good thing to do, not just from a climate but biodiversity perspective. The climate play here is long term. We have an immediate negative when the trees are removed and there is then a methane issue but, in the long term, it can be a very positive thing from a climate point of view.

As to the second question on matching timber targets, we will publish a long-term forecast again this year. We predict our volumes will be stable. We bring just under 3 million cu. m of timber to the market every year. We have to make sure we secure that. It is incredibly important for employment and building in Ireland, as well as for our commercial business. The areas I am talking about redesigning are not productive areas; therefore, they do not have a major impact on our productive capacity on the estate. We are trying to balance timber capacity and timber production for jobs and housing while improving biodiversity value in parts of our estate and meeting climate action targets.

Ms Imelda Hurley

When working on our vision, we did, as everybody here should expect, much work on the productive areas of our estate and the 50:50 balance, on supporting the delivery of decarbonisation of homes and supporting biodiversity. We carbon-modelled all of it to ensure we were clear on how to go forward and continue to deliver important timber.

Coillte exports timber. The Irish Timber Council was here last week and we heard a great deal about the boat from Scotland. While that boat was coming over with timber, was Coillte exporting?

Ms Imelda Hurley

No.

Mr. Mark Carlin

No. We do not export timber. We export timber products from our MDF and OSB plants but we do not export raw logs.

Does Coillte export pulp?

Mr. Mark Carlin

We do not export any round logs. Pulp wood, pallet wood, saw log and all of that are supplied to customers on the island of Ireland for production. Coillte manufactures MDF and OSB in our plants in Clonmel and Waterford and a proportion of those wood products is exported in the international market but we do not export logs.

The thrust of Coillte’s submission and of almost every answer its representatives have given has been about the availability and acquiring of land. Why, then, does it sell land?

Ms Imelda Hurley

We sell land for a variety of reasons. Often, it is to enable local infrastructure. It might be to support a local school in terms of access or car parks or to support neighbours. It can also relate to business or recreation offerings. Our policy regarding lands we sell is that we must fully mitigate any sale. The area of the Coillte estate cannot go down, so we buy lands and forestry to ensure the overall estate stays fully whole.

Why in 2021 did Coillte sell 213 ha in County Offaly on an as-is forestry basis?

Ms Bernie Gray

Can we take that offline and come back to the Senator on it?

I have an email from Coillte in 2021 and it never came back to me on it. The thrust of the argument to date has been about the acquisition of land, yet it is selling the guts of 500 acres of forestry as is. Why? I am entitled to ask that question as a public representative. It was not to gain access to a school or anything like that.

Ms Bernie Gray

We get requests from a number of bodies, including GAA clubs, rowing clubs, farmers looking for greater access-----

Not 500 acres.

Ms Bernie Gray

No. Could we take that offline and come back to the Senator? We cannot answer it at this point.

I have the email proof here. On 5 May, I had correspondence on it, but Coillte has not come back to me since. What will change there?

Ms Bernie Gray

We have given our undertaking.

I asked who the purchaser was and was told it was commercially sensitive and there was purchaser confidentiality. That was on 5 May 2021. I have not had an answer since. I have been asked many questions on the ground, naturally enough, from people as to why Coillte is selling 500 acres of forestry, especially when it came out that the Gresham House deal would not involve selling forestry or any of the crown jewels. Yet here the witnesses are not denying it and I have it in writing from Coillte that it sold 500 acres of forestry. I am entitled in this forum to ask why. I will not ask to whom.

Ms Imelda Hurley

In 2021, our land acquisitions were over 500 ha-----

In fairness, that is not the point.

I have been listening to talk of acquisitions and was toying with whether to ask the question but I have heard about acquiring land and the availability of land all evening and feel duty-bound on behalf of my constituents to ask it.

A specific question has been asked. Will the witnesses come back to the secretariat with the answer for Senator Daly? He has asked a question on why this land in Offaly was sold. He is very much entitled to an answer.

Ms Imelda Hurley

We are happy to come back.

I will accept that. Sin é.

I welcome the witnesses. I will come back to the Gresham House deal because it is a project of €2 billion, as Ms Gray said. I and the public do not believe the Minister or someone high up in the Department did not know before December. Who made the initial contact? Did Coillte approach Gresham House or vice versa? Did Gresham House get in touch with the Department? What was the timeline involved?

I ask because we have had numerous meetings here and trust in the sector keeps coming up. The sector is trying to trust Coillte and the Department but there is an awful lot of mistrust there and there will be until we start getting straight answers. The witnesses mentioned April and said they flew it around different Departments but, given it is a project of €2 billion, someone high up in the Department must have been in contact with Coillte at some stage to advise it to continue in its course or tell it to pull back. Who made the initial contact and what timeline was involved?

Ms Bernie Gray

The initial contact was with ISIF. As a cornerstone investor in this fund, it has an interest on behalf of the Irish State to invest in projects of strategic significance. It happened to coincide with our review of afforestation and increasing our capacity. It was a meeting of minds.

I accept that in April-----

Ms Bernie Gray

No, this was in 2019 with ISIF. That began a long dialogue about where it might go but ISIF is not a registered fund manager. It is an investor. For a fund to be created, a fund manager is needed. There are a limited number of options for fund management. Coillte provides services to that fund manager. We ran a selection process for fund manager in 2022, out of which Gresham House emerged. It was on the back of ongoing discussions with ISIF. There were broad discussions with the Department. Members can see in the letter of expectations we received in June that the Department was anxious for us to enter afforestation again. The question was how we would do it. As with all such challenges, there are ongoing discussions. We were open in our earlier contributions about the extent of the ongoing dialogue we had with the Department, which preceded the establishment of the fund in December.

When was the decision made that it would be Gresham House?

Ms Bernie Gray

The decision was made by us.

Ms Bernie Gray

In 2022.

In April 2022 or December 2022?

Mr. Mark Carlin

In 2020, we were in discussions with ISIF and knew we needed a fund manager at that stage.

Mr. Carlin is going back over what Ms Gray said. I am asking a specific question. When was the decision made that Gresham House was the preferred choice?

Mr. Mark Carlin

I was just coming to that. In 2020, the discussion was that we needed a fund manager. How do you get a fund manager? We went through a selection process. It was at the end of 2020 that Gresham House was selected as a potential strategic partner with the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, and Coillte.

At that stage, we were talking about a €2 billion project.

Mr. Mark Carlin

There were no contracts.

Is Coillte trying to convince us that at that stage Coillte had decided to take Gresham House on board as a potential partner and no one was flagging it with a Minister or with the Department?

Mr. Mark Carlin

We wind forward then into 2021. What we wanted to do in the early conversations with ISIF, and then with Gresham House, was to explore how would you set up a fund, what the fund and the investors would look like, what the scale would be, what role Coillte would play and what role would there be for cornerstone investors. We were trying to work through all of this in 2021. In 2022, we were starting to get into the details of what this could be in terms of the construct.

All along, in 2021 and 2022, there was ongoing engagement between Coillte and the Department because the Department was asking us what were we doing about afforestation. We have already spoken about 2019 and state aid. In the meantime, we needed to work on other initiatives, such as Bord na Móna, public lands and this one. We would have been in regular communications about an afforestation fund. Nature Trust was the other fund that we had in play at that stage. We would have been in ongoing discussions with it on all of that. Then, in 2022, when we were starting to finalise the fund in terms of its construction, we would have continued those conversations right up to the point where we had it finalised on 15 December. There would have been ongoing discussions all the way through for the last couple of years.

In 2020, Coillte would have known the targets it needed to meet. Coillte got into discussions with Gresham House and everybody else. Coillte knew the €2 billion figure at that stage. It did not matter whether it was Gresham House, Martin Browne or Tim Lombard, Coillte knew at that stage the target it needed to reach. Why was the Department or the Minister not brought into those discussions when Coillte was talking about that kind of money, even in early 2021?

Mr. Mark Carlin

In 2020, we were still working out afforestation and how Coillte would get into afforestation at that stage. We have talked about a preferred model and state aid challenges. It was only last April that we announced 100,000 ha of forestry in terms of afforestation targets. We would have been putting down twin tracks at the same time. We would have been looking at the models to allow us to even do afforestation because we could not have gone out with a target of what we would do until we knew broadly how we could attempt to do it in the near term. It was only in April last year that we announced that our ambition would be 100,000 ha of forest.

It is important also to know that the Irish Strategic Forestry Fund and, indeed, Nature Trust will only be a small part of that overall initiative of 100,000 ha and the €2 billion that the Deputy is quoting, because there will be many other initiatives as we go through the next 30 years. There will be opportunities opening up for us to do different things and there will be some new challenges as well.

When we were here on the previous occasion, there was a discussion around the 100,000 ha and the fund and I think they were put together. The intention is not to do 100,000 ha with this fund. This is merely one of the many initiatives that will be needed. That is an important clarification.

As I said at the start, trust is a major issue here. We have foresters and small farmers. We have farmers who have kept the industry going. When Coillte stayed away from it, they kept it going. That trust is not there at the minute. The more we listen to the dragged out answers such as we are getting here, the more that trust will not be repaired.

I will move on. How long does this partnership last?

Ms Imelda Hurley

The deployment period for the fund, the €200 million, is targeted over a five-year period. That is to get the funds deployed and, hopefully, the 12,000 ha in place, and then it is more long term in terms of the ongoing management of those forests. The deployment period is the five years.

Therefore, there is no end date in the deal between Coillte and Gresham House. It will roll over continuously.

Ms Imelda Hurley

The €200 million is the piece in terms of getting that deployed and then ongoing forest management so that the open access that will be available in those 12,000 ha sustainable forest management will continue as such.

Last week I and other members spoke about the concern at the price of land being driven up by the inequality of foresters and farmers trying to compete with investment funds. I do not know which of the Coillte representatives said a while ago that it would not be a problem. Even if land is scarce, this is an investment fund that has shareholders who will not care whether they have to take on the foresters or the small farmers. It will drive up the price of land so it can do the forestry it has committed to Coillte that it will do. It will not care about the small man in Mayo, Tipperary, Cork or any place else. Its aim is to make money for its investors. If that is at the expense of the foresters or the small farmers who have kept our industry going, make no mistake about it, it will not think twice about it.

Ms Bernie Gray

The target for afforestation is a national target and Coillte's role in it is in delivering 20% of that target. Some 80% of the national target for afforestation has to be met elsewhere and farmers will be one of the major groups who will support the delivery of that together with private capital. To put it all in context, we are looking at Coillte's role in fulfilling 20% of the national target, as wells as a fund like Gresham House. In this case, it is 12,000 ha or less than 1% of the overall piece. We have already outlined that there are a number of options we are looking at in terms of our 20% target. We are looking at the use of public lands, at the Nature Trust we have already established, and, ideally, at getting back into direct afforestation ourselves if the state aid issue is resolved.

The scale of the challenge is huge. The current level of afforestation nationally is 2,000 ha when it needs to be 8,000 ha to deliver the target for Ireland. What we are doing is part of the solution but it is only part of it. There are many other stakeholders who have play a key role in it.

We agree with Coillte there. Ms Gray can talk about the 1%. If Coillte's investment company decides that it wants land in Tipperary to reach part of that 1%, it will come down and it will not care about the farmers in whatever area it identifies land. Coillte has to bear some responsibility and try to give assurances to the sector. Just as local authorities will not out-bid first-time buyers in housing, surely there must be some kind of a mechanism there that if farmers or foresters are bidding on land with Coillte in partnership with Gresham House, that it does not out-bid them with ridiculous prices.

Ms Bernie Gray

I emphasise again that the size of the fund for Gresham House is 12,000 ha. We are talking about 100,000 ha of new afforestation which has to apply. Of the 12,000 ha, which Gresham House will be concerned with, 3,500 ha are new. The impact, in terms of farmers, of a fund like Gresham House is quite small in the context of the overall target. It is an issue for the State in terms of land use.

There are competing demands for land use. There is no doubt about it. Should it be used for forestry? Should it be used for housing? That is a debate which is bigger than Coillte. If anything, the debate around Gresham House is accelerating a discussion around that. We welcome that. We are trying to calibrate our role as best we can with the mandate we have but that cannot ignore what the State has to do. The Gresham House piece is a tiny piece of that.

We cannot ignore what we are hearing in our own areas.

Ms Bernie Gray

I appreciate that.

Everyone here will say, bar the Coillte representatives, that when investment companies come in, they can distort the market if the want to do so. Coillte is saying the contrary. What evidence has Coillte that when it goes into an area to buy land that it will not distort the market and push out the foresters and the small farmers who have been doing forestry in those areas.

Ms Imelda Hurley

Our strategic forestry fund is targeting 3,500 ha over the next five years or approximately 700 ha per annum. We all know, and it has been discussed in this committee as well, that land prices have moved fairly considerably over the past couple of years.

That was before the Irish strategic forestry fund. There are clearly significant demands on land going forward in terms of rules and the amount of land, given herd owners may want more land than they needed previously for afforestation infrastructure. It is also the case that for a fund of this nature, there is a limit to the amount that it can pay for land such that the returns can be made for the types of investors going in, such as pension funds looking for long-term, low risk returns.

Questions were raised earlier in terms of Coillte's land transactions. For many years, we have been involved in buying and selling land. We do it in a highly responsible way and that will certainly be how we plan to proceed.

I am conscious of time but I have two more questions. What is the purpose of purchasing existing forest if Coillte’s aim and primary concern is developing new forest? Is there likely to be a conflict in terms of meeting biodiversity aspects of the forestry programme and the need for those like Gresham House to deliver on demands from their investors?

Ms Imelda Hurley

In terms of the fund, the fact there are existing forests as part of it and the why of it, to be clear, our reason for being involved in the Irish strategic forestry fund is for afforestation purposes. However, the reality in terms of a fund of this nature is that the type of capital that is needed is very long-term and low-risk. It tends to be a pension fund and that type of investor. They are looking for risk diversification. They are looking to ensure it is not just new forest but also to diversify risk and to have a broader set of age classes. They are also looking for an ongoing return, a sort of annual return, so they have the money to pay pensioners. We need that mix in the fund in order that the whole thing works. To be clear, however, our primary objective and our involvement is very much around enabling afforestation.

Mr. Mark Carlin

On the biodiversity piece, there are many funds already operating in Ireland so this is not anything new. Although it has a commercial focus in terms of mixed woodland, a third of the planting will be native woodland. When we take that, along with the ambition that we announced last year that all new forestry associated with Coillte would be 50:50 in terms of native woodland and more productive species like spruce and pine, which are important for housing and the economy, it is a good mix going forward. We also then look at the existing areas of biodiversity that we have in the Coillte estate, where we manage 20% of our forests primarily for biodiversity. That is going to be very quickly increased to 30% in the next couple of years, with a long-term ambition that 50% of our estate will be managed primarily for nature and biodiversity. What we are going to be doing there is not just classifying those areas of the estate; we are actually going to be carrying out restoration projects, whether that is under planting with native woodland or improving the hydrology to improve the biodiversity value in our estate. It is a mix of trying to deliver the multiple benefits with these new forests but also with the existing forest estate which we manage as well.

I will leave it at that. I am conscious that three other members wish to come in.

I am conscious that the witnesses asked that we would have a break during the session and we were late starting because of the vote. We have three more speakers who wish to ask questions. Are the witnesses okay to continue?

Ms Bernie Gray

Yes, we are happy to continue.

I call Senator Lombard.

I welcome the witnesses. I will start with my principal argument. Mr. Carlin made a very interesting statement about the biodiversity element and he said he thinks it is going to go to 50:50 in due course because of national policy. National policy is proposing 450,000 ha between now and 2050, which is roughly 15,000 ha per year. We are now building timber frame houses at anything up to 42%. Does Mr. Carlin think we will, first, reach the target of 450,000 ha by 2050 and, second, that we will supply our indigenous housing market off the back of that? Or, are we just going to create parkland development, which will have no economic value to the State, only to end up importing vast numbers of logs and whatever else with it, with all the biodiversity issues pertaining to that, and have a huge issue with regard to our biodiversity security for the entire State? In other words, is the policy that is proposed going to deliver regarding our housing policy?

Mr. Mark Carlin

There are a few different aspects. The 450,000 ha is a very long-term target.

Mr. Mark Carlin

It is whatever date we want to put on it. If we put 2050 on it-----

I think that was in the published strategy.

Mr. Mark Carlin

I think it was 18%. I would have to check whether it was 2050. Either way, if it is to 2050, it is a phenomenal target. A recent National Council for Forest Research and Development, COFORD, report said that for climate action, we need to be achieving 16,000 ha to 18,000 ha of new forest a year. The target is at 8,000 ha and we are only doing 2,000 ha. To go back to the Chair's comment earlier, that is the size of the challenge.

As to whether I am confident, in 1996 we did the highest ever at 22,000 ha, so we have shown that the industry and the sector can step up. It is a brilliant sector. It has had its difficulties over the past couple of years but it has shown that it has the people and the plants. If we can get the opportunity in the right regulatory environment with the right policies in terms of land use, it can be done.

The reason I would be confident is that we are at 11% forest cover, which is the lowest in Europe, and the average is 40%. It is not as if we are anywhere near saturation point. I am not deaf to the challenges either in terms of land use or land use change but we have to reflect on the fact we are at 11%. We have to do this. The timeline for when we can do it is, of course, a challenge.

On the land use issues, peatland is one issue and there are potential derogation issues regarding nitrates and more land being required for our bovine herd. These are huge issues. Mr. Carlin mentioned that the price of land has escalated over the last few years and it is only going to go one way, which is to go up dramatically. The land is not being made again and we have what we have; we are not in a scenario where we are going to make more land. There are more demands on land, whether it is for housing, agriculture or forestry, and the potential that we are going to increase our portfolio from 11% onwards to 18% in that 2020 to 2050 schedule which is being proposed, is very limiting or even bizarre.

I want to go back to the issue of supplying timber for our primary duty, which, as Mr. Carlin stated clearly, is our indigenous housing industry. At the moment, it is at 42%. From talking to those in the industry, they are saying that is only going to go one way, which is to go up dramatically, and anything from 60% to 80% is the line given. With the proposal of having anything up to 50% of our portfolio going into a parkland development style, which would have limited value in terms of commercial timber - I am not giving out and this is a comment on national policy - does Mr. Carlin honestly believe we will achieve the targets for supplying timber for our indigenous construction industry?

Mr. Mark Carlin

There are two aspects to this: one is timber use in timber frame and the other is timber supply. I want to start with the timber frame piece. The Senator has quoted 42% but it is actually lower. His figure is correct for scheme homes, which typically would be 40% to 45%, but when we bring in single dwellings and apartments, it is much lower, say, 20% to 25%. In Scotland it is 80% timber frame and in Scandinavia it is 90%.

We have significant obstacles here in Ireland to the use of timber and we need to remove those quickly. The first is Part B of the building regulations that deal with fire safety, such as at section 3.2.5. That restricts the use of timber frame to 10 m buildings and it has to be removed. Norway has built an 18-storey building and there is a ten-storey building in London which is the largest timber frame or cross-laminated timber, CLT, building in the world. We have to start using more timber frame and traditional wood. We then have to start using more engineered wood, such as CLT and glulam, or glued laminated timber. There are restrictions here in Ireland and we simply have to remove those.

We focus on energy, climate and carbon usage in buildings.

We do not focus enough on what the buildings were made with in the first place, which is actually even more significant in terms of embodied carbon. We have a real opportunity to improve the use of timber and we need to do that.

When it comes to the supply of timber, there are a few different points to make. The demand should and will go up. We should be using more timber. We are in a very good position here in Ireland because of the forests that we have. There is no question that there is an afforestation challenge, but the supply from the forests that we have in Ireland will double in the next 15 years. We have got to take advantage of that. We must use that supply wisely and we have to innovate and use the best long-life valuable products to build our homes. We are also exporting around 40% of our timber to the UK. That is also supply that we could bring back and use in Ireland. I still think we need more trees and afforestation and to get the right balance. We are not setting the national strategy. This is just Coillte's 50:50 forest strategy. The national strategy can be different. We believe that the right strategy for us is a mix of native woodlands, which have huge value in terms of biodiversity, recreation and carbon in the very long term; and faster-growing conifers, which are critical for building our homes and for fast sequestration of carbon. That is what we are trying to do. We are trying to get that right balance.

It is a challenge to produce enough timber that is going to work a market in 30 years' time, given where current planting levels are at the moment. We are planting just over 2,000 ha a year. If there was a split of 50:50 based on that, in 30 years' time we would be importing the majority if not all of our timber for our construction firms.

Mr. Mark Carlin

You have to remember-----

Ms Bernie Gray

If we maintain our afforestation rate at 2,000 ha a year, we will have a bigger-----

I am very much aware of that.

Ms Bernie Gray

The other point is that we are not the only operator in the market.

What I am trying to get is an opinion from the representatives of Coillte, as a major stakeholder in the market, on what the national policy is, and whether that will be enough to ensure that we have enough timber for our market in 30 years' time.

Mr. Mark Carlin

We all accept that we need more trees and afforestation. Part of that is producing the timber we need. As we harvest our timber, for every tree we harvest we plant three new ones. What is wonderful about our industry is that there is also reforestation. What we harvest today, we replant immediately and it kicks off again. We have a real opportunity here. I think it would be wrong for us to give a message that we need to be careful with increasing the use of wood in the built environment because there could be some supply constraints. Let us drive up demand through the use of wood. We need to do that in our built environment. It is a fabulous product and we need to use more of it. I do not think there will be supply constraints in the short term.

Mr. Mark Carlin: We all accept that we need more trees and afforestation. Part of that is to produce the timber that we need. As we harvest our timber, for every tree we harvest, we plant three new ones. There is also reforestation. That is what is wonderful about our industry. What we harvest today we replant immediately and it kicks off again. There is real opportunity here. I think it would be wrong for us to give a message that we need to be careful with increasing the use of wood in the built environment because there could be some supply constraints. Let us drive up demand through the use of wood, because we need to do that in our built environment. It is a fabulous product and we need to use more of it. I do not think, in the short term, that there will be supply constraints.

I would hate to think that that message would go out but we should be concerned about the mix going in at the moment. My concern is that in 30 years' time, that mix will not have delivered for the market. That is my primary argument.

Ms Imelda Hurley

The Senator raises a very important point. When we look forward, we must consider the scale of challenge in terms of climate action, the need to decarbonise the built environment, the need for regulatory changes to hopefully allow for broader uses of timber in building and on top of that, the need to ensure that there is enough of the right type of trees that will support the built environment. All of that needs to come together. Very often the focus can be on native forests. I am glad the Senator has highlighted the importance of productive forests and the types of trees that will deliver productive forests. There is an awful lot to do in getting that balance right going forward. That is why, when we launched the vision last year, one of our ambitions was to promote the use of timber and timber frame homes. That is really important not just for Coillte, but for Ireland in terms of climate action. Hopefully, those 450,000 ha will get planted. There is a huge job of work to do. Then we need to make sure that there is pull-through in demand, because there is nothing better than demand to ultimately create supply. It is a very long supply challenge in terms of how long it takes to grow a tree.

This is my last question because I know we are under pressure for time. Coillte has a considerable portfolio of properties at its disposal. There is a part of the world close to my home called Ballymartle woods. We previously discussed the proposed sale of the woods in December and Coillte informed me that the proposal to sell the woods had been paused. Can the witnesses provide me with an update on where that is at the moment? Is the proposed sale still paused or where is it?

Ms Imelda Hurley

It is still in a paused state. I am happy to come back to the Senator separately with the latest information. I can assure the Senator that the sale is definitely still paused.

Ms Hurley might correspond with me on that.

Ms Imelda Hurley

I would be very happy to.

I welcome our guests. To be fair to Coillte, the organisation has improved its image over the years, particularly through its work on walkways, opening up its forests and letting the public make use of them. When I was Minister of State at the then Department of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, I had responsibility for the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS. We did a deal with Coillte in respect of Ballycroy National Park. It was agreed that Coillte would look after the walkways and greenways and keep them clean and open. Land was given to the NPWS that was never going to be used properly for forestry. I must compliment Coillte on that. It has done a lot of good work over the years. As the witnesses have said, there are many organisations besides Coillte in the forestry business and because Coillte is a semi-State company, it is under the scrutiny of the Oireachtas committee. Some operators can go out and do what they like, and they are not answerable to anybody.

However, I must say that the recent deal that with was done with the UK venture fund certainly did not go down well and Coillte did not handle it well. It could have explained to the public what was actually going on in a better way. It was the way that it came out and was dealt with was not very satisfactory. It looked like lots of our land was being given away to a foreign country that has left Europe, does not want to be part of Europe and of this country or any other European country. Land is very important to people in this country. We go back 100 years as a State and there have been issues in relation to land between England and Ireland. To think that 100 years ago people died to set up a Republic and now we are nearly giving back the land to the Brits again. I know Coillte will not look at it that way but the deal was handled very badly and it went down very badly. Coillte has a bit of work to do as a semi-State agency to get the confidence of the people back again.

I have two or three questions. The first concerns farmers. What is Coillte doing to encourage farmers to make land available for forestry? As far as I am concerned, Coillte is not doing enough in that regard. We are being told by Coillte and the Department that there is money to be made for farmers if they plant trees. If it is so good and profitable, why are more farmers not planting? What can be done to encourage farmers to work with Coillte and to make it worth their while to plant trees?

My second question is on Coillte staff and the witnesses might not have the information to hand. How many staff does Coillte have at the moment? If the witnesses do not have the information, they can send on the reply to me.

There is a big issue is in relation to land prices. People can talk around the issue any way they like, but there is no point pretending. Farmers want to buy land, builders want land and everybody wants land. As the previous speaker said, nobody is actually making any more land available. We only have what we have. There will be no more land made available, only what we have presently in the world and in the country. I know that Coillte has to go out there and compete to buy land. I must say that I would like to see more encouragement to get more farmers involved, in particular. Farming is a way of life and farmers will do anything. I know the Chairman is a good farmer and there are many other farmers here. If there is money to make in something, farmers will do it and they will do it well. If they think there is a good reward out of forestry, they will respond. There must be something very wrong when they are not responding. I know that we have discussed the issue at the committee over the last two years, in particular, in relation to licensing and to getting felling and planting licences. That is a big issue. Do the witnesses believe any change is taking place that could help to encourage more people to plant trees? It seems that people are angry that they cannot get trees felled or planted and that the rules and regulations are overburdening.

That is part of the reason farmers will not get involved in forestry.

Ms Bernie Gray

I will just make some opening remarks in response to what the Deputy said and then I will pass over to Ms Hurley. Regarding the communication on the Gresham House deal, it is clear that it is a very complex transaction and requires a significant amount of communication. We would absolutely accept that we need to communicate much more clearly and in a much timelier fashion. However, our expectation for the Gresham House deal was based on the extensive communications we had with stakeholders after our vision was launched last April. None of those discussions indicated the depth of the concerns which emerged when the full detail of the Gresham House deal was revealed. The reaction to it was unexpected.

I wish to put it in context. It is a small part of the many routes we will take on afforestation. We accept it was a complex transaction, but our expectation was based on the prior discussions we had in which no adverse comments were made to us. At the same time, we are very conscious that there was misinformation which exacerbated the concern and confusion for everyone including the staff of Coillte. The net result is that we will not take anything for granted in future.

In terms of the land use, many factors impact the price of land. There is no doubt the Gresham House transaction has brought to the fore the challenge for Ireland's land use policy. It is a debate we will need to have. We are in the middle of a climate emergency and if we cannot deal with the difficult issues that emerge as a consequence of that - land use will be one of them - then as a nation we will fail our generation and the next generations. It is in everyone's interest and in the national interest that the issue of land use should be resolved. It should not come down to how much a farmer has to pay for land to meet his requirements versus a commercial interest, a private forest or a housing development. It needs a more regulated space to minimise the risk for any of the participants in the market. It comes down to what the national land-use policy is in the broadest sense.

From our point of view, it would make our life easier as well. We, as a company, have sought to act in the national interest. Our mandate is to manage the forests of Ireland for the people of Ireland in the best way possible. In our vision we are trying to calibrate and balance all the expectations about how forests can be used. It is the first time that we have brought forward a strategy which is balancing the use of forests for wood on the one hand, which Senator Lombard referred to, with the use of forests for recreation on the other hand. There are more than 18 million visits by the members of the public to our forests in any one year and that must have a value. It does not come down purely to economic value. It comes down to an aggregate value which is a combination of economic, social and climate factors. We are trying to inform a discussion and debate about where the balance should be. Land is one of the factors in that debate.

Ms Imelda Hurley

We have just over 800 members of staff in Coillte at the moment. We have about 1,200 contractors with reasonably long-term contracts. Contractors represent a very important part of how Coillte manages the overall estate.

The Deputy asked about farmers. I am a farmer's daughter and have reflected long and hard about farmers getting into forestry and afforestation. I acknowledge that recent years have been a challenging for the sector, but considerable progress has been made. When we appeared before the committee a few years ago, the discussion focused on licensing, backlogs and availability of sawlogs to go to mills. That has all moved on very considerably. Work is ongoing under Project Woodland to review regulation and come up with a regulatory framework. Everyone believes it needs to be as streamlined as soon as possible so that it is straightforward for everybody to know which licences are needed and to be able to get them in a reasonable timeframe. The backlog has reduced considerably.

Critical for farmers getting into afforestation now will be the forestry programme which of course needs to come into being and get going in Ireland and needs the review in Europe. That is an appropriately generous programme which rightly recognises that the farmers should get premium for the longest period of time at 20 years with 15 years for the non-farmer category. It is important that the programme should incentivise farmers specifically.

There is a job of work for the entire industry to do. That includes Coillte, others across the industry and the Department. We all need to promote forestry. It will be a critical enabler of climate action. In some ways it will represent a cultural change for some farmers. I can certainly speak from the experience of the discussions we have had at home. It is a necessary part of our future land use. The other critical piece is more demand for timber-framed homes. Strong demand for timber will create a pull-through factor which will also help to create the momentum for people to get into the sector.

Cuirim fáilte roimh Ms Gray, Ms Hurley and Mr. Carlin. I am trying to juggle two meetings here which is why I left earlier. The witnesses may have answered some of the questions, but they can keep the answers short.

I return to the Gresham House deal. How many land purchase deals have been done already under that deal?

Ms Imelda Hurley

Is the Deputy asking how much the Irish Strategic Forestry Fund-----

How many deals have been done by Gresham House under its new contract?

Mr. Mark Carlin

One.

In which county was that?

Ms Bernie Gray

Tipperary.

I have evidence of one done in Roscommon. I do not want to say too much publicly about it. It was very recent. I will not press the witnesses on this. They have been very honest with their answers. However, I know of a young farmer who was looking for that land. My information is that it went over €8,000. I do not blame Gresham House altogether because he may have got cold feet at €8,000. He is a young progressive farmer and he has lost that now. He has told me that this has changed his entire focus on farming. All I am saying is that we need to be very careful about this.

At the moment, Leitrim has 17% forestry and we know the rest of the country is below that. Will Coillte be advising Gresham House that it cannot purchase land in counties like Leitrim? I agree that is not a huge contract. How can it be spread evenly over the country? As someone from Roscommon and the west, I fear that if this is not well monitored by Coillte and well scrutinised by politicians, including me, we could have blanket forestry.

I am not against forestry. I understand that it is a good way to deal with climate change. I do not want a blanket of trees over the west and north west. I accept that some land there is more adaptable to forest than that in other parts of the country but if we were to spread it across the country, this would be far easier to do. It is important that we get the new scheme up and running, with 20 years' premiums and €1,100 per hectare. It is really good and I encourage farmers to stick with it until the other one is up and running and to hold onto their land and plant 2, 3, 4 or 5 ha, with some of it wild. As it has been a long meeting for the witnesses, I will accept a short answer.

Ms Bernie Gray

I am from Longford, so I am a neighbour of the Senator's.

I was born in Longford.

Ms Bernie Gray

We have something in common then. We had a discussion on this issue earlier with a colleague of the Senator. First, our overall forestry coverage nationally is extremely low, at 11%. The average in other countries is over 40%. That leaves significant capacity for growth. Second, the concentration of forestry is not just on the west coast. County Wicklow is at 17% afforestation as well, for example. It is also on parts of the east coast.

As regards how to accommodate it across the country, the total size of the Gresham House deal is 12,000 ha. It has a minor impact. The bigger challenge is in the scale of the overall afforestation target and how we achieve that as a country. It goes back to the discussion we just had with Deputy Ring in respect of land use policy in Ireland, where it is at and whether it should depend on local farmers to fight their corner, if one likes, in an unregulated way. There are many competing demands for land at present and the scale of the challenge, not just in forestry but also in other sectors, is equally large. We would prefer to look at it on a national level and see what can be done. Coillte has already commenced discussions. Ms Hurley and Mr. Carlin met with representatives of the IFA regarding how Coillte can support farmers in thrusting forward with afforestation for the reasons the Senator described in terms of the forestry programme when it becomes operational.

Mr. Mark Carlin

As regards the deal to which the Senator referred, I wish to be clear that there is one deal complete but the fund is active-----

Mr. Mark Carlin

-----so there could be negotiations under way. I cannot comment on the specifics of that deal-----

I understand that.

Mr. Mark Carlin

-----but I hear the concerns the Senator is raising. To add to Ms Gray's point on different counties, that is something of which we are aware. Efforts will be made to spread the effort across the country. We need to be cognisant of that. In the context of the creation of new forests, we have been very ambitious in our statements to try to get the right mix in terms of 50:50. I hope that many people will see the new forests, particularly if they come with recreation and trails, as a positive for their community rather than a burden. It should be seen as a positive for local employment and wood production but also from a biodiversity and recreation point of view. We certainly have to be careful with regard to the spread across the country.

I trained in horticulture and spent my first years in west Cork working in the sector. I have something else in common with the witness, who is a ciotóg, like myself.

I support Deputy Fitzmaurice in respect of Mote Park. I am delighted that Coillte is going to meet. I ask to be kept informed on that as well. Deputy Fitzmaurice made a very good point.

To conclude, we have the CEO of Coillte present. There is a beautiful development on Sliabh Bawn in County Roscommon. It is 700 acres that used to be covered with spruce trees and so on, some of which are gone. As the witnesses are aware, a wind farm was installed there. I do not think Coillte has much part in the wind farm. What has happened there in terms of walkways, walking trails, nature gardens and tree gardens is amazing. There is a lot of history and all the sites have been done. The viewing tower is fantastic. That has drawn so many people to the Strokestown area, where the National Famine Museum is located, particularly during Covid, as Mr. Carlin is probably aware. Thousands of people have used it and continue to do so but much more could be done there without spoiling its beauty. I will speak to the witnesses about that at a later stage. I have some very good ideas in that regard which I hope we might be able to develop.

Ms Imelda Hurley

We would be delighted to engage with the Senator and hear his thoughts and ideas. As part of the vision we have launched, we recognise the importance of delivering for climate, nature, wood and people. Delivering for people also involves recreation. We will continue to focus on recreation across all our forests.

Mr. Mark Carlin

We also have exciting plans for Lough Key Forest Park, which is located in the Senator's area.

That is great news.

The witnesses focused on land use policy in the past few minutes. In the context of designated land, it has been the case that an EU decision has completely decimated the capital value of land. That is completely and utterly unacceptable. We have argued here about the inflationary price of land. The witnesses say 12,000 ha is not going to have a significant impact. When there is an already vibrant market, one extra customer coming in to put another stick on the fire will add more heat. There is no point denying that. The witnesses would say it is not significant. If there is a young farmer or a farmer of any other age next door to land he is trying to buy to keep his unit viable into the future but that land ends up being bought by Gresham House, that will leave a sour taste. There is no way an individual farmer can compete with an investment company. We will have to be very careful in that regard and monitor it closely. In days gone by we had the Land Commission, which was able to regulate this and ensure there was fairness in the context of competition for land, but we no longer have that body. I accept it is a fully unregulated market now but it is something we will have to monitor. If a farmer wants to purchase some or all of a land parcel that is up for sale, there has to be recognition of that. I accept that Coillte is not responsible for the full inflation in the price of land at the moment but the reality is that prices are going up rapidly and an extra customer is going to impact on that. In the context of land use and dictating national policy, under the Constitution the owner of the land is entitled to get the maximum the market can return. Obviously, we have to try to work around that to make sure we can meet climate change targets and everything else but I ask Coillte to ensure that when a deal is being done, it will carry out a survey to see if there is a potential customer nearby, give proper recognition to that and make sure that potential purchaser is given a fair chance to buy the land at a reasonable price. Otherwise, as Deputy Browne stated, trust will be lost completely and a sour taste will be left in people's mouths.

Another matter that worries me greatly is the restoration of land. The witnesses referred to a significant quantity of land being taken out of Coillte's land bank. It plans to let some of it go into natural forest and to rewet some of it but replacing that will be extremely difficult. I do not know how we will meet the targets that have been set for land restoration. We should be clear that nothing is yet agreed in respect of land restoration. Countries other than Ireland will also have serious reservations in that regard. A significant percentage of the land in Sweden that is under forestry is peatland. That is also the case in Finland. The EU is promoting this restoration.

It is most definitely not a done deal at the moment. Common sense must prevail in that regard. It is something on which we as a committee will be focusing, as we have done previously. As that policy is formulated in Brussels, we will focus on it here. I thank the representatives from Coillte for coming in today. We have had an earnest discussion. The witnesses have heard clearly our concerns as regards Gresham House and the competition for land etc. We all want to see a thriving forestry industry here. As a committee, we have devoted an awful lot of time to forestry. This is just one part of the forestry strategy going forward. If Coillte gets an update on where it is as regards getting access to premiums, the committee would be very interested to hear about that. It might keep the secretariat informed of any updates on that because, obviously, that would change the landscape significantly. As I said, I thank the witnesses for coming in today. We have had a very worthwhile discussion. They have listened well to our concerns and worries as to how Coillte policy operates going forward to ensure fairness and that we meet our targets.

The next public meeting of the joint committee will be on Wednesday, 8 March at 5.30 p.m. The agenda will be the development of the sheep sector and the supply of creosote wood. There is an issue in that regard and an EU directive is coming. The committee will engage with representatives from Sheep Milk Ireland, the IFA and a few suppliers of stakes.

Ms Bernie Gray

On behalf of Coillte, I thank the committee for the discussion today. We were delighted to take the opportunity to discuss matters further with members. We will, of course, follow up as quickly as we can with the committee in terms of a number of areas that were identified, including the issue of state aid and access to premiums.

I would also like to invite the committee to attend a site visit with us in one of our forests in order that members can see the issues about biodiversity in practice on the ground and some of the challenges we face. It can be at a location of their choosing. I know members from County Roscommon will put a bid in for it.

I agree fully. I also think we should visit the Medite plant if we are doing it-----

Ms Bernie Gray

Absolutely.

-----to see exactly what the end product does. I have been to the Medite plant, which is located in my and Deputy Browne's constituency. We can see the employment and wealth generation the Clonmel plant can create.

Ms Bernie Gray

We have made significant investments in Smartply. We would be delighted to show them to the committee.

If we could couple a forest somewhere near that area with a visit to the Medite plant, that would be great.

They might wake me up at Tipperary. Senator Murphy can even come.

As there is no further business, the meeting now stands adjourned.

The joint committee adjourned at 8.23 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 8 March 2023.
Barr
Roinn