I welcome the delegation from the Athletic Association of Ireland. I remind the delegation that parliamentary privilege does not extend to anything they may say. The members of the committee have privilege to say what they wish.
Will Mr. Hennessy introduce his colleagues and make his presentation?
I thank the Chairman for inviting us in here. I am president of Athletics Ireland. My colleague, Mr. Patsy McGonagle, is chairman of high performance and deputy president of Athletics Ireland. He was team manager for the Olympic Games in Beijing and various other championships and has vast experience. Ms Jacqui Freyne is the director of development for Athletics Ireland and has worked with us for several years. She is a former international athlete of some repute.
I will read out our presentation and hope not to detain the committee for too long. Athletics Ireland is the national governing body for athletics in Ireland. It is affiliated to the IAAF, the world governing body for the sport and is a member of the European Athletic Association, and is also a member of the Olympic Council of Ireland. Its board comprises a president; five chairs of committees; four regional representatives, one from each province; representatives from the Irish Schools Athletic Association, the Irish Universities Athletic Association and Athletics Northern Ireland.
Some 270 clubs throughout the country are affiliated to the organisation with a registered membership of approximately 26,000. These numbers are on target to increase substantially by the year's end to approximately 30,000. They do not include the approximately 20,000 who compete annually in the Irish schools competitions.
The sport has a vast remit covering the whole spectrum from little athletics, from age five to 10; juvenile and schools, ages 11 to 19; junior, under 20 and senior competitions and a highly active veterans section. There is an enormous range of competitions and activities throughout the year catering for all the sport from the recreational runner through to the top elite athletes.
In 2005 Athletics Ireland adopted a professional operating structure to implement its vision and strategy which is focused on developing athletics as an educational and recreational activity while also raising the competitive standards of Irish athletes domestically and on the world stage. There are now 18 professional staff. Their function is to implement the policies and strategies adopted by the board whose members are all voluntary. Since that time considerable advancement has taken place in many areas, including the move to a new purpose-built headquarters; closer integration of the schools and universities groups into Athletics Ireland; closer cooperation with Athletics Northern Ireland; the completion of a seamless high performance programme from youth achiever level through to World Championship and Olympic Games level; implementation of the little athletics programme; and implementation of the Fit 4 Life programme.
Many challenges have been identified which are being worked on, including a comprehensive competition review, seen as a fundamental issue for the sport; a national system for the training and education of officials; greater self-funding; and improved facilities with a particular emphasis on indoor facilities. On the performance front the year to date has been highly successful. It has been particularly satisfying to see the unprecedented number of athletes qualified for all the major games, European Youth Olympics, World Youth Championships, European Junior Championships, European Under 23 Championships, World University Games and the World Championships which will be held later in the year in Berlin. Most gratifying is the range of events in which our athletes are qualifying. Traditionally we were a nation of middle and long-distance runners and the major figures, Ronnie Delany, Eamonn Coghlan, John Treacy, Sonia O'Sullivan and Catherina McKiernan were icons of Irish sport. We now have world-class athletes in sprints, hurdles and race walking and possibilities of a breakthrough in other events.
We are particularly proud that the highlights of the year to date include a very successful European Indoor Championships, with medals for Mary Cullen and Derval O'Rourke, and promotion to division 1 in the European Team Championship last weekend. This was a particularly satisfying performance, to move out of division 2 and into division 1 of the European League. There were wonderful indoor championships at the Odyssey Arena in Belfast with some outstanding performances and a well-received hour of television coverage by RTE; a superb juvenile indoor championships in Nenagh and Magherafelt with an increased number of championship best performances; and a magnificent schools' championship in Tullamore where there was a record number of championship best performances and excellent television coverage by Setanta Sports.
Over the past three years the performance levels in the sport have improved appreciably and in particular at the major games in each of those years. At the European Championships in Gothenburg 2006 we had eight finalists and one silver medal for Derval O'Rourke. At the IAAF World Championships in Osaka 2007 we had two top six placings and a number of finalists and in the 29th Olympiad at Beijing 2008 we had two top eight placings and several finalists. These results were a considerable improvement on the World Championships in Helsinki 2005 and the Olympics in Athens 2004 and those in Sydney in 2000. Success is not based purely on results from major games but on the combination of awards won at various events, the number of national records set and the overall depth of performances in the sport. Our sport is based on facts and figures and the records show an increased number of national records and greater depth of performance in the past couple of years.
The sport is very dependent on Government support and we work in close partnership with the Irish Sports Council, the Irish Institute for Sport, Coaching Ireland and the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. Without the substantial funding and resources from these groups it would not be possible to sustain our present structures. We greatly appreciate their ongoing support and strive to work in close cooperation with them to develop support structures for the benefit of all our athletes. We also feel that we provide an excellent return on their investment in us. We particularly thank the Irish Sports Council without whose substantial increase in funding in recent years we would not have been able to implement our development programme and enhanced high performance programme.
Close co-operation with the Olympic Council of Ireland, OCI, is essential and has been achieved in the key areas of our involvement, the Olympic Games and the biennial European Youth Olympics. The relationship has been particularly effective in recent years in Olympic Games preparation, as my colleague Mr. McGonagle can attest. There is also excellent cooperation for the European Youth Olympics and we particularly welcome the inclusion by the OCI of Sonia O'Sullivan as the team leader for this year's Youth Olympics in Finland
This December Ireland hosts its first ever European Championships when the Spar European Cross Country takes place in Santry on 13 December. A substantial volunteer force has been working diligently on this event for the past two years. We would like to take the opportunity to thank our crucial partners in this venture, the Irish Sports Council, RTE, which is the host broadcaster, and Fingal County Council, which we particularly wish to thank because we are using its facilities as the Vice Chairman is aware. The council also provides outstanding support for some under-age primary schools competitions which it has been doing for the past few years. Ms Freyne, our director of development can attest to that too. Dublin City Council has come on board to help us and Clonliffe Harriers without whose support it would not be possible to host this prestigious event.
While the work that Athletics Ireland has been carrying out and the results achieved over recent years have been excellent we have encountered many challenges. Many of these challenges have been dragged through certain media and sometimes there has been little or no regard to accuracy. This has been a particularly challenging time for the Athletic Association of Ireland but in the spirit of our sport we are working tirelessly to find solutions to these challenges and to ensure our sport can remain in a healthy position for all our members. We are working diligently through these tough times and strong progress has been made which will be welcome news to everyone who cares about athletics in the country.
We will continue to face challenges in our sport, such as recruiting a world-class director of athletics who can develop the excellent range of athletes we have nurtured through our development programmes who can lead a team of Ireland's most talented group of athletes to London 2012 and beyond. We will face challenges in maximising all possibilities around London 2012 to ensure Ireland can benefit from the hosting of the world's greatest show on our doorstep and we look forward to working with the Government, the Irish Sports Council and the Olympic Council to make this happen.
We are continually reviewing all our existing processes and structures and we will continue to do this as athletics continues to grow in the country. We also face challenges in reviewing our competition structure to ensure we are developing athletes to their maximum potential while also growing their love of the sport.
Over the past few years the importance of effective communication has become apparent and we are always looking at ways to communicate better as an association both internally and externally. We are all challenged in the current economic climate and the Athletic Association of Ireland knows that now more than ever this country needs sport. We are working at all levels to ensure that every person in the country can have access to local running clubs so that they can benefit from a healthier lifestyle and also enjoy the social capital that these clubs can bring to everyone. Only yesterday at Farmleigh there was a launch of an event for young athletes that will take place in July.
One of the biggest challenges we will face is securing world-class indoor facilities in this country. We want to show our athletes our commitment to them, we want to give them a venue so they can aspire to perform in like their modern day heroes. Ireland has some outstanding facilities — a world-class GAA stadium, a world-class rugby and soccer stadium is nearing completion and some of the world's finest golf courses. We now want to work as hard as possible with the Government to ensure we can provide a world-class athletics facility to help secure the future of the sport in Ireland.
The Athletic Association of Ireland, like every national governing body, will always face challenges but it is critical that we at all times keep our members and athletes to the fore. Athletics has a long and proud tradition in Ireland and this tradition will continue into the future. With the structures we have put in place and the personnel we have managing these structures the future of athletics in Ireland is extremely bright.
We circulated an initial piece on the ethics development programme and we will take questions on that as well.
I welcome the delegation. The witnesses are here because we want to ensure public money is spent as it should be — to promote the objectives of funding allocated to help sport, specifically the Irish Sports Council. To the extent that the Athletic Association of Ireland promotes participation in sport and improves performance, our major concern is the dispersal of public money.
The Irish Sports Council and the Olympic Council of Ireland have appeared before the committee. Their presentations and the follow up correspondence we received from them, both of which mentioned the AAI on several occasions, do not fit with the delegation's report to us. It is as if they were written by people from different planets. Mr. Hennessy claimed to have a great relationship with the Irish Sports Council but it stated to us that it is trying to get the AAI to put sports on its agenda. If the Irish Sports Council says that about the Athletic Association of Ireland clearly the relationship is not that good.
The group also withdrew funding from the AAI and was funding it on a monthly basis, saying that until governance issues were resolved that would continue. Have those issues been resolved? I have heard that full funding has been resumed. Is that the case? What were the governance issues and how were they resolved?
There were reports of large amounts of money being spent by the organisation on legal fees. The association has stated that the legal fees come from its own resources but that is a moot point. Wherever the money comes from, it is taking money away from sport. These cases and the disagreements that exist within the AAI and between the AAI and the Irish Sports Council are not conducive to getting the best results in terms of focus on the athletes and sports promotion. The focus is on issues of personality and ownership, on who is a friend of whom and who is empire building and that gives a terrible impression.
We are having this interview and the Minister will be appearing after the summer because we want to resolve these issues so money is spent for the reasons it is allocated. This is scarce taxpayers' money but things appear to be completely out of hand. I would like to hear that this has been resolved and how that was done. Will more money be necessary to buy out contracts? If so, how much money will be needed? Why did this end up before the courts? Through Just Sport Ireland there is a facility available for arbitration in cases of this kind. Why did the association not choose this route?
I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation. It was positive about what is happening with athletics. The reason we invited the delegation, however, is the concern in the public arena arising from the presentations we have had from the Irish Sports Council and the Olympic Council of Ireland, as well as correspondence we have received from people with an interest in athletics.
We have never had a delegation where the chief executive of the organisation did not appear to make a presentation. Why is the chief executive officer not here? Was she invited?
We must ask about the reasons the Irish Sports Council was drip feeding funding to the AAI over a number of months. In the last week or two a commitment has been made that the full funding will be made available again. Could the witnesses shed some light on the reasons for the monthly funding, the impact that had on the association and the reasons why the money is available once more? The uncertainty surrounding funding has damaged the association and the reasons for that must be teased out.
It is clear from all we have heard from other groups and correspondence we have received that there is internal friction in the organisation, particularly with regard to the chief executive officer. I would like to know from Mr. Hennessy, as the president of the association, the action he has taken to resolve these difficulties. Earlier he stated: "We are working diligently through these tough times and strong progress has been made which will be welcome news to everyone who cares about athletics in the country." I would like to know what is that level of progress and how it reflects on the current status of the chief executive officer of the association within the association. It is no secret to any of us here that problems are being experienced.
It is also my understanding that the Irish Sports Council is very proactive within the control of management and indeed the funding of the organisation. Perhaps Mr. Hennessy would clarify for us the role of the Irish Sports Council in regard to the current position of the chief executive officer and that the board has held various meetings, following meetings with the Irish Sports Council, in regard to the position of the chief executive officer.
On the issue of legal fees, because this is public money sooner or later, directly or indirectly, a great deal of money that it would appear from everything we have been told could be put to better use has had to be used for legal fees. Mr. Hennessy may say it is not Athletics Ireland or public money but I would like clarity on that. If the figure of €100,000 is accurate, it is a huge amount. If it is more than that, we need to know the reasons for it.
What all of us as public representatives need to know at the end of this process is that the public funding that is dedicated to the Athletic Association of Ireland is well spent on behalf of sport in the country. The one aspect on which we must all surely agree is that, first and foremost, it has to be athletics at every level across the country from the five to ten year olds right up to the elite athletes. I would welcome Mr. Hennessy's comments on that.
Does Mr. Hennessy want to respond to those questions?
A range of questions were put which may need to be asked again because I have not been able to take notes and track the various aspects. A question was asked as to the reason the chief executive officer is not present. The CEO is currently on holiday.
Issues arise around the question of the legal cost. Unfortunately, legal proceedings are ongoing and therefore it is impossible for me to comment upon those at this time.
If I may ask a supplementary in regard to the chief executive officer being on holiday. Was she invited to the meeting today?
No. The CEO was not invited to the meeting.
The fact that she is on holiday, therefore, is totally irrelevant. Let us call it a red herring.
We are working through a series of processes in conjunction with all the various parties, including the CEO. We are working in conjunction with a range of people. We are going through a process at this stage trying to reach an overall solution to the multiplicity of issues that have arisen over a period.
We deeply regret the various issues that have arisen and as to how they might have arisen, and going through the history of that, part of it might be due to the fact that we moved from being a voluntary to a professional organisation some years ago. The various issues that arise between the volunteers and professionals could be part of it.
Once we get over all of these matters, we have identified that there are many issues we need to sort out ourselves, including the interaction process between voluntary and professional, looking at our total structures and reviewing all the appointments we made over the years. We went from a position where we had only a very small number of people employed to having 18 people employed. We need to look at the full remit of all of those people to determine if they meet the needs of the organisation and identify how we can best move forward for the benefit of the sport. Everything we are trying to do is for the overall benefit of the sport.
There can be a timing difficulty in terms of addressing these matters, and if we were further on we might be able to come up with an overall solution. Our interaction with the Irish Sports Council through the years has been hugely positive although there can be challenges in dealing with it. It will challenge us and we will challenge it. We spent a lot of time working through various processes with it. It has assisted us enormously in putting together many of our structures that we may have been a little slow to do.
Similarly, working with people such as the Olympic Council of Ireland, it is crucial for us as an organisation that we work with everybody to try to maximise every resource for the benefit of the sport. That is the reason we have worked closely in recent years with Athletics Northern Ireland, Sport Northern Ireland and the various sports partnerships throughout the country but we are limited in what we can do. We have done a fair amount but there is still quite an amount to be done. Unfortunately, these issues have arisen in recent months but we are working through them.
An issue arose also with the appointment of the director of athletics. It has taken us some time to deal with it but we are now working through that. We advertised for the job and we would hope to get that critical appointment in place in the next few months. We constantly review what we are doing, based on what is in the best interest of sport.
May I ask a supplementary?
I believe there are a few more questions to be answered. There were three questions, as I understood from Deputy Mitchell and Deputy Upton. The first concerned the funding. Did the organisation obtain funding and, if so, when? The second question concerned the amount of legal fees and why arbitration was not part of the process. The third issue was the question asked about the CEO by Deputy Upton. Mr. Hennessy might deal with the financial issue first.
My first question on funding was that the organisation was on a monthly retainer, so to speak, from the Sports Council. Has that now changed? Does the association have its annual funding back and, if so, why has it changed? It said it required changes in governance. What changes have taken place?
I personally had many discussions with the Irish Sports Council and was reporting to the board. We told it the difficulties for us, in terms of what was originally a drip-feed of funding, in working out our overall operational plan for the year. It listened to us in that regard. At a very early stage it responded to the high performance programme, and that money came through at a very early stage. None of the elite athletes, therefore, was disadvantaged. They knew the position from the word go. In fact, we made a further case to the Irish Sports Council for additional funding for a number of areas. It has had a reduced funding allocation this year. We got some additional funding for that.
We made a case for the core grant as well. It was not impacting on us on a day to day basis but we needed clarity in terms of what would be the final outturn from it by year end. We got that in recent times. There is absolute clarity now on what is the funding for the year. That is very important to us.
On the performance allocation to Athletics Ireland, we got our allocation and are working through it. We are happy with our allocation based on the recessionary times in which we live. As Mr. Hennessy said, within the past month or so we got supplementary funding for preparation for Berlin for our main impact athletes and we got further supplementary funding for our Euro cross country preparations in terms of athletes who are abroad or who need some funding.
In terms of performance, the Irish Sports Council has been very proactive, supportive and understanding of every situation put to it. This is in line with the history of the link between the Irish Sports Council and our association, particularly in recent years. Given the times in which we are living, we are appreciative of the support we are receiving. I accept it has consequences for us in that we need to deliver, but the council tends to be supportive, proactive and to listen if we have a special project case, and that continues to be the case.
I am not clear if the funding has been reinstated to the original way in which the association was funded. Mr. McGonagle seems to be saying that none of the issues which caused the change in the way the association was being funded has been resolved and that it simply made a case that this drip-feed of funding was not in athletes' interests. Am I right in saying that the funding has not been reinstated in its original form?
We went through logically with the Irish Sports Council the difficulties this was posing for our association in not getting our full allocation in terms of operationally working through to the end of the year. It listened to that and it took some time in that respect. It is widely known the Irish Sports Council was only drip-feeding us funding originally. We were aware that this would be the situation. It had forewarned us. It wanted to have discussions with our association. It has done this before to various other bodies — that is its prerogative. It believes there are issues involved. Clearly, it would have seen things in the public domain and it was entitled to ask questions.
Were those issues in the public domain or was the council involved in those issues? All the reports we have are that the Irish Sports Council was involved in these issues, very central to them and very hands on in a way that one would not have thought was the norm.
These were internal issues for us that we had identified. When this issue arose initially many other issues started to emerge, which was unfortunate. A core issue happened and we were trying to address it and all sorts of other issues started to emerge because of leaks, various other matters and perhaps a drip-feed of information that we were unable to keep internally within the association. Matters got to a certain stage and the situation became complex. One point that was mentioned, which was unfortunate, was the question of why we did not go into arbitration. It nearly happened before we were even aware of it that the whole question went legal and we let it slip for a little while ourselves. I deeply regret that, as the president of the organisation, we allowed it to happen but once it did we could not stop the process at that stage. We were more than conscious of this. We were very conscious to guard against any funding, and we would have accumulated various funding, not being used for the general running of the sport. We need to learn from this process and we will learn a great deal from it. We will have a clear direction as to how to go forward in the future. It is a relatively new process. I have spoken to the CEO of the Federation of Irish Sport about this possibility, but we are in the position we are in currently. We are working tirelessly to try to resolve this as quickly as we can and we expect to get a fairly quick resolution to it.
On a funding issue, I accept what Mr. Hennessy is saying about the timing of the legal case and so on, but newspaper reports in the past week indicate that the CEO is negotiating her way out. Has he any idea what that will cost? Is that the truth or is that still very much up in the air? Are there huge sums of money yet to be spent?
The only point I would make on that is that Mary Coughlan is still the CEO of Athletics Ireland and she has a contract with us.
Does she have Mr. Hennessy's support?
She is the CEO of Athletics Ireland. Clearly, she has been doing substantial work for us from the time she was appointed. There are issues that we are working through, but Mary Coughlan is still the CEO of Athletics Ireland.
She does not have Mr. Hennessy's support any more, is that correct? I am drawing that from his answer.
I can only reiterate what the board's position is and the position is that Mary Coughlan is still the CEO of Athletics Ireland.
What is the board's position as a matter of interest? Does Mary Coughlan have the support of the board?
I am not at liberty to give details in regard to the board. I do not wish to be difficult about this because these are difficult times for us as well. We are working through these processes, in conjunction with everybody else concerned. Everybody concerned is part of the process we are currently going through. It can be difficult when legal constraints apply and it may seem that we are prevaricating but this is quite difficult. We want to be as open and honest as we possibly can. Our interest is purely the sport of athletics. That is our aim.
Mr. Hennessy should understand that from our perspective, as an Oireachtas joint committee, we are talking about public funding, as Deputy Mitchell pointed out in her opening remarks. Our duty, as elected representatives, is to ensure that public money is spent in the best possible way.
Deputy Upton asked Mr. Hennessy a question about the CEO of the association. He has clarified that the board did not ask her to be present today, which was unusual because in the case of all the presentations made by organisations to the committee, the CEO of the organisation has been the lead speaker. It seems a little unusual that the CEO of the association is not here today. Can I ask Mr. Hennessy a direct question as to why she is not here and it might lead to clarification of what Deputy Mitchell asked him, namely, whether the CEO enjoys the support of the board at present?
Why was she not invited here today? Mr. Hennessy told us she was on holidays and then he said she was not invited. Setting aside the holidays story because that is totally irrelevant, why was she was not invited to be here today?
The matter of how we would approach our duty to present ourselves to this committee was discussed at a recent board meeting. The composition of the group was decided on that particular basis. Mary was on holidays for a few weeks when we received the original request, but that is beside the point. We are going through a particular process the details of which I cannot go into due to legal constraints.
With due respect to Mr. Hennessy as president, it is an extraordinary situation that the board of an organisation would not chose to invite the chief executive officer to this meeting. He has told us that she is still the chief executive officer. Therefore, we would like to know why she was not invited. It is strange that a board would meet and decide as a board that the chief executive officer would not be asked to come to an Oireachtas committee and be accountable given that ultimately she would be the Accounting Officer for Athletics Ireland. Why would the board make that decision?
This issue has been going on for several months. The CEO has been part of the process that has been going on for many months. We have discussed it at board level. We have moved on. We have discussed it with the CEO and her legal representatives and we are going through a current process in conjunction with the CEO and her legal advisers.
The CEO has been seriously compromised because this meeting is being held without her being present to give her point of view. Clearly, as Mr. Hennessy has indicated, and from my interpretation of the discussion, she does not have the support of the board. She is not here to defend herself and this is most unfair.
There can a question of timing involved. We are going back over the same thing. It is quite difficult. At this stage, we have discussed various things both internally, within the board, and with the CEO as well. I had a long discussion recently with the CEO for a couple of hours. It was a friendly discussion in terms of the various issues at this stage. This has been mutually agreed at this point and we are into discussions.
What has been mutually agreed?
That discussions would be taking place between Athletics Ireland and the CEO.
About what?
Relating to her resignation or dismissal?
No, just discussions in terms of where we might try to resolve all the current issues of which there are a number.
Do members have more questions about the CEO?
Are these discussions likely to result in a large bill? That is what I would like to know.
Obviously that is another issue and we will come to it. I will now call Deputies O'Mahony and White. Let us confine the immediate topic to the CEO and we will then move on to other issues.
I thank the board for its presentation. I know of the personal commitment involved concerning administration, expertise and competitors over the years. As regards the CEO issue, it was mentioned in the presentation that many of these challenges have unfortunately been dragged through certain media and sometimes with no regard to factual accuracy. The benefit of today's meeting is to allow the AAI representatives to say what was not factually correct. The information we are getting with regard to the CEO particularly, is that the CEO is persona non grata in Athletics Ireland. The evidence that she is not here backs that up. That is in the public domain as a result of this meeting. Is that where we are at?
I am not trying to be awkward, but——
We are talking about the CEO now.
If there are issues that are sub judice, why do the witnesses not say so? If there are issues they can talk to us about concerning the CEO, the list of issues that are causing concern and unease, I think we should be entitled as an Oireachtas committee to know that. The AAI is availing of public money but there is a labyrinthine web whereby we are not getting the full answers. I would respect and understand that if it was sub judice, but I wish to pose two questions. Does the CEO know this meeting is taking place today without her? If the matter is not sub judice, why can the witnesses not tell us the list of issues that are causing concern between the AAI and its CEO? It is as simple as that.
I compliment the AAI's representatives on the immense work they have done on behalf of Irish athletics. On the CEO issue, however, it is a bit tiresome because this is our third meeting dealing with athletics with the Sports Council of Ireland, the Olympic Council of Ireland and now Athletics Ireland. There seems to be an undercurrent of tension, personality clashes or a lack of coherent directional policy. Like Deputy White, I am bemused as to why the CEO is not here. Out of respect for the organisation, as the chief executive officer, I would have thought she would have been here. If there are issues the witnesses cannot reveal to us for whatever reason, that is fine, but they should let us know they cannot do so. However, we have been given a vague under-the-counter type of remark about this matter. To be quite honest, I do not care about the personality disputes and I do not want to know about what is happening behind the scenes. Like my colleagues, I am more concerned that we become athlete-centered and have not just high performance but also break Irish records and win medals. I compliment the AAI on its athletics programme. Our young athletes must be optimistic about the future.
To be quite honest, I am dismayed by the whole carry on. I am wondering whether we should disband the meeting and call on the Olympic Council of Ireland, the Irish Sports Council and Athletics Ireland to bring in Genesis to have a complete root and branch review. It has gone beyond a joke at this stage.
Does the Senator want to suspend the meeting?
I do not propose to adjourn the meeting.
I am saying that because all of us in this room are sports people of varying degrees.
I know.
All we have is dispute and tension, but we are forgetting about the athletes.
We can make decisions in future as to where we go and what we propose or suggest. In trying to clarify the CEO position, can the AAI confirm that its board has asked the CEO to resign or that the CEO herself has offered to resign, hence the negotiations between the AAI's legal advisers and the CEO's legal advisers?
The discussions are going on.
Who is pre-empting them? Is the CEO offering to resign on the basis of incompatibility with the board, or has the board effectively — coming back to the original comments — voted no confidence?
The CEO is willingly engaging in discussions at the moment.
At whose instigation? Who is behind these negotiations? Is the board saying "We have no confidence in you, CEO, so will you reconsider your position?" or has the CEO in an individual capacity decided she cannot work with certain people or the board in general and offered to resign? Which is it? It has to be one or the other, does it not?
I appreciate that if something is sub judice one cannot speak about it, but my understanding is that the legal case is a defamation case and is not to do with her position as CEO, if I am correct. It would seem that Mr. Hennessy is not precluded from speaking about the issues.
There are a number of issues, not any one issue. There are a number of issues we are trying to work through because a whole raft of things came out in this. We are trying to pull the whole lot together to try to get an overall solution. The board made the decision for talks to commence and the CEO has willingly come into those discussions at this particular point. As Senator Buttimer said, we are trying to move on all the various issues. There are a number of issues that are sub judice that one cannot talk about. There is more than one issue. We are trying to move on all the various issues so that we can move ahead. What has been going on in recent times is a strain on all of us, but we have been working harder than ever to ensure that the athletes are not disadvantaged.
It is quite clear from what has been done in the past six months that the level of achievement is unprecedented in Irish athletics. It is not like other sports — one can actually track the achievement by looking at the Irish ranking lists. The number of achievers who have moved on to the first level of high performance is twice as many as ever before. The number of athletes who have qualified for the European Youth Olympics is twice as many as can go, which is way beyond anything previously achieved. The number of athletes who have qualified for the European junior championships is much higher than ever before. The same applies to the number of athletes who qualified for the European under-23 championships, the Farmleigh programme and the Irish school championships. All that work is going on and it is frustrating for us to have the additional work as a consequence of this. We genuinely want to work through this as best we possibly can in the interests of the sport, of everybody concerned and the personal interests of the CEO also. It can be difficult to get that point across. We appreciate the amount of work the CEO has done for us. We are where we are at this stage and we are working through the various posts — not alone the CEO but other things as well. It is difficult to be as clear as we possibly can because things are sub judice and because we do not have the same rights of privilege as members of the committee. We do not have any great experience of coming to these meetings. That could affect us as well.
In regard to Senator Buttimer's question on athlete focus, we have never been in better shape in terms of qualifiers. In athletics, as in swimming and other sports, standards are set by global and European bodies. Our qualifiers are greater than ever. The statistics are available for everybody to see. The numbers are way above what we once imagined.
That is down to support we received to appoint, for the first time ever, regional development officers and development officers. That is only beginning to kick in. As a result of that, this year we have medal prospects in every major championship in Europe and globally among our youth achievers, our under 17s, our under 18s and our under 23s. In terms of athlete focus, we have not taken our eye off the ball.
The difficulties which have arisen in the sport have made it a bit more difficult. One must get up earlier and stay up later. This sport is alive and kicking and there is a great deal of passion and energy and many good volunteers out there. With the support of the Sports Council of Ireland and the Government, we are very confident in saying that we are delivering. The statistics prove it. We can provide global statistics which are marked down by the IAAF, which is the world governing body.
To achieve a global or a continental standard is a major achievement. If an 18 year old achieves a European standard, one has an athlete. The fact that 30 athletes qualified, but we only allowed 14 athletes to go to the youth Olympics meant that there was disappointment. So, we are in good shape.
I wish to come in briefly on that. I presented some statistics for the committee. We are the first paid staff Athletics Ireland took on and we started in September 2006. Members will see that the statistics speak for themselves. We are working seven days per week at present because our sport is not really a Monday to Friday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., one.
Feedback on the ground is really positive. We have more clubs than ever and more people are involved both recreationally and competitively than ever before.
To go back to the point about keeping the athletes to the fore, the development department and the high performance department, at both ends of the spectrum, are keeping the athletes to the fore and public money is being well spent in these areas.
I appreciate the immense work being done. Brendan Mooney, a very good sports journalist in the Irish Examiner, covers athletics. At board level, however, the focus is being taken off. If there was not this undercurrent, imagine what could be achieved if the sole focus was on athletes. That is the point I was making; I was not being critical.
I agree. I have to be honest. I am a volunteer and have spent 40 years involved in the sport. I have been on the boards of the various forms of Athletics Ireland for 30 years. This has been the most traumatic time I have ever gone through in the sport. It has been absolutely unbelievable.
I have found myself helpless at different times because of the way things have evolved. Since things started to move into the legal area, of which we have no experience, it has been very difficult. I am not trained to deal with a number of these issues. It can be very difficult to articulate all these issues and the constraints. I find it incredibly frustrating that we are not able to give absolute clarity to the various issues which have arisen.
We are working through the issues which have arisen, although not quickly enough for me. I cannot wait for these issues to move on. I am sure the chief executive officer cannot wait for these issues to be resolved.
It is also very hurtful for us when we see the information circulated to this committee, some of which is incorrect. I do not want to go into the details, but I was very hurt by one of the things passed around by the director of athletics who gave information, by way of briefing notes, which was incorrect. That is such an important issue for us as a sport. Much of the information circulated was unhelpful. We did not respond to much of it in the best interest of the sport.
That is why Athletics Ireland is here, namely, to give its position.
I welcome the delegation. The passion Mr. Hennessy demonstrated in trying to explain difficulties which have arisen and his openness in trying to do so is backed up by the fact that he has given voluntary service for the best part of 30 or 40 years.
I have always had an interest in athletics. We have a good athlete in our midst, namely, Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill. From my involvement in athletics, one tried to do the best for the participants. That is exactly what the delegation said with great passion.
It is always important to strike a balance in a debate such as this. We should look at the positive side of the success of Athletics Ireland. It is an amazing story, namely, the cohesion and unity it has brought to bear. Nothing has been more riven with disunity in the history of Ireland than athletics. We have seen it so often. We saw people who could not participate in international athletics because of disunity and different bodies representing different situations. Athletics Ireland has brought unity and co-ordination to its work. It has 232 clubs and 26,000 members. That is a huge number in the world of athletics.
I know how difficult it is to do work like that without personality clashes, misunderstandings, and so on. It will be very difficult for the committee to resolve that. What I have heard is that Athletics Ireland wants to see all the outstanding issues resolved and to get on with the main work for which it was established. The people who will benefit from that are the athletes. I know that if there is any kind of legal implication, there are constraints on people. It is very difficult to be able to open up a discussion.
I note Athletics Ireland liaises with all the main agencies relating to sport. It has not indicated any difficulties in that liaison or expressed any dissatisfaction in that regard. That comes back to the point I made about unity. For that reason, we must focus on the positive as well as on the difficulties.
People who have come to this meeting have done so at great inconvenience to themselves and their families. The reason they have done so is the sheer love they have for the work they do. It is important that whatever difficulties they have or on whatever they must focus, they leave this meeting still energised enough to continue their work because if there are fewer volunteers, the athletes will suffer.
I would like to look at the positives and commend Athletics Ireland on the great work it has done and its great achievements in setting up a national headquarters. There is a great debt of gratitude due to it. I have no doubt the majority of athletes will identify with that.
Like other speakers, I welcome the representatives from Athletics Ireland. It is a difficult meeting in the sense that Athletics Ireland has gone through a challenging period and that is reflected in Mr. Hennessy's remarks when he said many of these challenges have unfortunately been dragged through certain media, some of which have had little or no regard to factual accuracy. That is correct.
I am an athlete and a member of Finn Valley Athletics Club in Donegal. Athletics Ireland has 26,000 registered members and the board represents those people. Some athletes compete at local level, some at regional level, some at national level and others represent our nation abroad. We would be doing all those people a great disservice if we were to delve too deeply into the internal goings on of an organisation such as the Athletic Association of Ireland. I agree with the other speakers in the sense that we must have due regard to our responsibilities as legislators in respect of the funding made available to organisations such as the AAI but there are legal questions and issues which are sub judice.
From speaking to a number of the athletes who will be competing for Ireland at the world championships this year, who competed for Ireland at the Olympic Games last year and who it is hoped will compete for Ireland at the London 2012 Olympic Games, their only concern is about the development of the sport, not about the internal goings on within the organisation. Our role is to support those athletes and to support the organisation that is supporting the athletes, that is, the board of the AAI.
As an athlete and as a friend to many athletes, I hope those difficulties can be resolved quickly and in a professional manner. I will support all attempts to resolve those issues. While I am not a member of this committee and I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to say a few words, I certainly hope this committee can support the Irish Sports Council and the AAI in resolving this difficulty. At the end of the day, it is about the athletes who will be taking part. It is not about the personalities.
I commend, in particular, Mr. Patsy McGonagle, a man from my own county who is here today, on the work he did in Beijing last year bringing home two top eight positions in the world from the Olympic Games and in developing for London 2012. I hope later in the meeting we will have an opportunity to discuss London 2012. I want to hear what the delegation may have to say about the role the country and the Department can play in developing our ambitions for 2012.
Certainly, that is my view on it. There are conflicting views coming across today, but I hope we can support athletes. That is all I would call for. Park the personalities for a minute, support the athletes and support the board of the AAI because it has been there in the past and it will be there in the future. We must try to support that board.
I agree with Senator Ó Domhnaill when he says we support athletes. That is, as I stated, the view and the mission of everybody in this room. It is about sport and it is about athletics.
We got slightly side-tracked and I regret that I must revert back to the discussion on the chief executive officer again. I want to pose a question again. Has the Irish Sports Council at any stage urged Athletics Ireland to fire its CEO?
No.
Has it had no input whatsoever to the position of CEO?
We appointed a CEO through due process more than 12 months ago and the board signed off completely and unequivocally on Ms Mary Coghlan as the CEO for Athletics Ireland. That process was quite clear at that time. It was unanimously signed off on by the board.
Has any individual member of the Irish Sports Council, as opposed to a board directive, indicated a desire to get rid of Ms Coghlan?
There was never an indication to us officially from the Irish Sports Council at any stage.
What about directly or indirectly or unofficially from an individual?
Within official meetings that we had with the Irish Sports Council — we have had some fairly tough meetings in recent times — there was never an indication from the council or any member of it that such would be the situation.
Is it the case that on occasions following meetings with the Irish Sports Council, emergency meetings of Mr. Hennessy's association were held where the position of the CEO was discussed, or would that be considered to be entirely coincidental?
Sorry, I missed that.
Following meetings of the board of the Athletic Association of Ireland or some members of that board with the board of the Irish Sports Council or some members of that board, there was a meeting of the board of the Athletic Association of Ireland where the issue of the position of the chief executive officer was discussed.
Quite clearly, the position of the CEO has been discussed at many meetings. That is quite obvious. Over recent months, at various times we have had meetings and we have gone through an entire internal process of what is required in terms of the proper running of a board.
My question is whether those meetings or discussions were held subsequent to or consequent on meetings with the Irish Sports Council or any members of that board.
We had only a limited number of official meetings with the Irish Sports Council. Quite clearly, we would have gone back to a full board meeting with a report from that particular meeting and there would have been other day-to-day business at those meetings as well. We would have discussed in-house issues arising from what the Irish Sports Council had raised.
Would the council have raised the issue of the position of the chief executive officer with Mr. Hennessy?
It would have raised various issues in terms of our governance.
Would it have raised the position of the chief executive officer?
Would it be normal for the Irish Sports Council to interfere in a way like that to pass any comment on the CEO of a sporting organisation who, I presume, was validly recruited under an independent recruitment process? I believe the Irish Sports Council may have had a member on the interview committee that recruited her. Would it be normal for the Irish Sports Council to comment, officially or unofficially, on the CEO in such a way?
For all appointments, the Irish Sports Council would be involved. It was involved in the appointment process for the CEO and that process was quite clear. We went through a process and the board unanimously signed off on it. There has been no direct involvement by the Irish Sports Council since then. There have been discussions on all sorts of matters. It is difficult within the broad remit of everything that was said at every meeting in terms of what issues might arise, but the Irish Sports Council has never spoken to us in terms of us making decisions about the CEO. That did not come up with the Irish Sports Council. That certainly did not come up at any of the meetings.
As far as Mr. Hennessy knows, has he no idea how the Irish Sports Council feels about the CEO or how any individual on the council feels about the CEO?
This would be a difficult question to answer. We all would have views about various people and various matters. It would be easy for me to say that I do not know how various people feel about anything or to say how we within our own organisation feel about various other people at different times. We all have discussions. We all have the pub-talk type situations where we talk about various people and various things such as who is good and who is bad, but often it does not mean very much. All that matters is what the official position is at any time and, officially, the sports council has never said anything to us.
It is the same with us internally when we would be discussing. I would have discussed with our CEO every week various aspects of various matters. They do not become official until they become official.
May I, for the purposes of clarification, ask about the delay? The core funding has only recently been paid by the sports council. Is that correct?
That is true.
Was it paid in June — this month?
Yes.
Is there any connection with the delay? That money should have been paid in January, as in previous years, as I understand it.
It should have been paid in March or so.
What is the connection between the issues involving the CEO and the delay in that payment?
I cannot speak for the Irish Sports Council on this specifically. When the Irish Sports Council was announcing its grants for the particular year, we were told in advance that we would not be included in the initial tranche. Unfortunately, things came out in public to say the reverse. We were advised in advance that we would not be included in the initial tranche of funding and that there would be discussions with us.
Those discussions took place after that. There were ongoing discussions. Of course, we were unhappy we did not get our core grant clarified at that time. Whatever reasons the Irish Sports Council may have had, we worked through them. I was delegated to discuss these issues with the Irish Sports Council, which I duly did. It took some time to complete those discussions. We resolved, at a very early stage, the issue relating to high performance. Mr. McGonagle is chairman of the high performance committee and he and his members worked on various matters because we were obliged to put additional plans in place. That matter was resolved and we then moved on to tackle the issue of core funding, which was ultimately resolved in recent weeks.
Mr. Hennessy has to some extent answered the question I wish to ask. I presume that, at the outset, the Irish Sports Council provided reasons with regard to why it did not intend to pay the grant in full. Something happened to change the position. What was the key factor which allowed the funding, which had previously only been paid on a monthly basis, to eventually be put in place? Anyone who is in receipt of funding will accept that it is virtually impossible to make plans when one is operating on a month-to-month basis. It was not in anybody's interests, from a sporting point of view and from the perspective of the management of the Athletic Association of Ireland, that the money was being paid on a monthly basis. What happened to change the view of the Irish Sports Council in respect of committing the full tranche of funding?
Based on what other organisations were receiving, we had a good idea with regard to what would be our level of funding and that there would be a decrease of a certain percentage. The decrease in respect of high performance was quite small. We had a general idea of what would be the outcome but we needed to obtain clarity. The Irish Sports Council had a number of issues which it wished to discuss with us.
What were those issues?
The Irish Sports Council would need to indicate what were the specific issues.
Surely they indicated what those issues were to the Athletic Association of Ireland.
There was not absolute clarity regarding the full list of those issues.
Did the Athletic Association of Ireland not challenge that fact on each occasion it met the Irish Sports Council?
That is exactly what we did. To return to basic principles, a couple of days before the announcement of the grants we were informed that we would not be included at that stage and that the Irish Sports Council wanted to engage with us in discussions in respect of certain issues. Immediately thereafter, I reported to the board of the Athletic Association of Ireland. We discussed the matter with the Irish Sports Council and quickly resolved the issue surrounding the high performance aspect. It was a key factor that the athletes would know what would be their position vis-à-vis their plans for training camps and various other matters. A number of athletes were due to travel abroad for warm-weather training, etc., and it was critical that we resolved the position with regard to high performance funding.
We had a fairly good idea as to what would be the core grant but we did not know the exact position. We worked through the entire matter with the Irish Sports Council but this took some time. We convinced the Irish Sports Council with regard to our position. Unfortunately, however, it took two months to do so and the matter was not finally resolved until the past couple of weeks. It was a case that we were obliged to negotiate with the council.
I would not read anything sinister into the reasons as to why the Irish Sports Council did not provide us with the grant immediately. The council merely had a number of general issues with us and these were already in the public domain as a result of media reports.
Was it a coincidence that discussions were also taking place with the CEO of the Athletic Association of Ireland in respect of the CEO's resignation?
I would genuinely state that this matter was not an issue. We were also in deep discussions with the Irish Sports Council regarding issues we have in respect of the European cross-country championships. The council came to a general agreement with us two years ago when we were planning for those championships. We needed to obtain clarification from a number of key stakeholders in respect of this matter. For example, we were obliged to obtain clarification from RTE, which was absolutely critical. The station came on board and we thank it profusely for that because, even in straitened circumstances, it is investing €150,000 in the event. That is a colossal amount. The Irish Sports Council also made a commitment and we needed to ensure that it was going to confirm that commitment, which it duly did. We are involved in negotiations with it for additional funding in respect of that particular event. We have engaged in discussions with the Irish Sports Council, at different levels, on various issues. Such discussions usually take some time to complete.
Based on Mr. Hennessy's reply, I have no idea why the Irish Sports Council did not commit the funding in the first part of this year. I am no wiser but I thank him for his reply.
The Irish Sports Council informed the committee as follows:
It is unfortunate for the reputation of the Irish Sports Council that it gets dragged into internal disputes because of its role in bringing about good corporate governance in organisations.
The Irish Sports Council has to drive the development of sport and when sport is not the agenda, it causes problems. The ISC is trying to get the AAI to put sport on the agenda.
The word on the street is that the Athletic Association of Ireland's funding was reinstated when it agreed to get rid of its CEO, for whatever reason. I do not know whether there is any truth in that.
I must unequivocally state that that is absolutely incorrect. I have been deeply involved in trying to resolve the various issues, complex and difficult as they may be, to which I refer in order to bring about the betterment of the sport. As already stated, we are living in difficult times. Due to what happened at the previous two meetings, the focus seemed to centre on the same matter. It is hugely important for the sport and for us that we learn from the mistakes we or other organisations might have made. The board of our organisation has only one agenda, namely, the development of the sport of athletics in Ireland.
One of the matters to which Senator Ó Murchú referred is a major issue for us. We have a simple policy of trying to maximise resources on the island of Ireland for the benefits of all athletes. We have made massive progress in recent times in our work with Athletics Northern Ireland in the context of the general integration of facilities, funding and various other resources. The other bodies involved in this regard are the Irish Sports Council, Just Sport Ireland and Coaching Ireland, which is an all-island body. We are doing colossal work in that area. I would hate if, arising from what we are discussing, the difficulties involving the CEO might have an adverse effect on the work in which we are engaged.
Senator Ó Murchú referred to how disjointed the sport of athletics has been for many years as a result of political and other reasons. Only in recent years has the board of Athletics Ireland been able to pull all the elements within the sport together as one unit. The universities, the schools and Athletics Northern Ireland are all involved. This is the first time in the past 100 years that we have been able to work as a single unit on the island of Ireland for the good of athletics. We are continuing our work in this regard in an extremely positive manner and everyone is onside. That has been very important for the sport.
It was extremely hard work to get to the position where we now find ourselves because people in the sport had many serious political ideas, etc. It is only in the last number of years that we have achieved unity, which is a very positive outcome.
Will the association's legal fees be paid out of public funds or from money provided by the Irish Sports Council? If not, from where will it come?
It is unfortunate that there will be a need to pay such fees. However, any that arise will be paid out of our own resources and reserves.
What level of resources does the association possess?
We have limited resources at our disposal. We moved to a purpose-built headquarters in the past 18 months or so. We previously occupied a building in Glasnevin which we owned and which we sold. We did reasonably well out of that sale. We were lucky that we sold it during the better times. This hurts me very much but I do not wish to sound like a martyr. We have worked as volunteers for nothing at various levels down through the years. We have got a great amount out of the sport or we would not be involved in it. We hope to continue to do so. We do not want one penny to be wasted on issues such as that. I said earlier that I regret we were unable to go down a different route at the time.
I know and understand the voluntary input of the delegation. I just want to get the facts. Mr. Hennessy referred to the recruiting of a director of athletics which is under way. Can he tell the committee how much this will cost or who will fund it? The European cross-country championships were referred to. Is there a shortfall in the funding for this event? If there is, are the European athletics representatives who visited Ireland a couple of weeks ago aware of the shortfall? If there is a deficit, how will the gap be bridged? Is there a possibility that because of the legal fees and shortfalls in funding for the European cross-country championships, Athletics Ireland will be facing a big debt by 2010?
The funding for the post of director of athletics is budgeted for in the high performance fund. It is a very important position and it was previously a part-time position. We have advertised for the position, we will be going through the process in the next couple of weeks and we hope to have a high quality person in place by the time of the world championships in Berlin.
Will this post be under the current allocation or next year?
It was actually budgeted within the current allocation and it is a very important position. The elements of the sport such as high performance will be covered.
The European cross-country championships constitute one of the biggest events in the country this year and one of the few events for which RTE will be sending a live signal to EBU members whereas some of the golf events are only covered by Sky television. I record our thanks to RTE for its significant commitment to this event even with the current constraints.
I acknowledge there are shortfalls in funding for the European cross-country championships at this time. We are looking at every line item to try to reduce the cost but there is still a shortfall. Dublin City Council recently came on board for this event and it will help with marketing and other aspects. We are in discussions with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. Tourism Ireland was party to the original pitch for the championships but it now has a funding shortfall. We hope for some success in our discussions with the Department and we are also talking to the Irish Sports Council. European Athletics has been informed of the shortfall and we are in discussions with it. It understands there are and have been difficulties for other events around Europe such as the European indoor championships in Torino recently which also had a funding shortfall due to the economic downturn. They worked through it themselves and they have had great difficulties.
Can Mr. Hennessy tell the committee the amount of the funding shortfall?
We are revisiting certain parts of the budget and I would prefer not to refer to the amount of the shortfall but there is a fairly decent one at this stage.
If there are no other questions, I thank the members of the delegation and record our gratitude to them as volunteers. We have referred on numerous occasions to the level of commitment of thousands of volunteers in different sports throughout the country. I commend them on their work and thank the delegates for their frankness. The cross-country championships will be held very close to my own territory with the involvement of Fingal County Council and it is a great honour for Ireland to hold this international event. I wish Athletics Ireland well with the championships and I hope the finances do not cause any shortfall. I thank the delegates for their attendance today.
