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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES díospóireacht -
Thursday, 6 Dec 2007

Broadcasting Issues: Discussion with Broadcasting Commission of Ireland.

I welcome Mr. Conor Maguire, chairman; Mr. Michael O'Keeffe, chief executive; Ms Celene Craig, director of broadcasting, and Mr. Neil O'Brien, director of engineering, to the meeting. The Broadcasting Commission of Ireland has agreed to attend this meeting to discuss, in particular, digital terrestrial television and the proposed broadcasting Bill.

I draw everybody's attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Further, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I advise members that the format is that we will hear the presentations which will be followed by a question and answer session. I invite Mr. Maguire to commence.

Mr. Conor Maguire

I thank the committee for inviting us here and giving us an opportunity to make a presentation on the two topics, the broadcasting Bill 2006 and the roll-out of the digital terrestrial television. I am joined by Michael O'Keeffe, who is the chairman of the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland. I am also joined by Celene Craig, head of broadcasting at the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland, and by Neil O'Brien, head of engineering, who is present because some of the matter we are dealing with is of a technical nature and he is available to respond to any queries from the committee. Some of the material may appear not to be complex but when one goes into it in depth it can be quite technical. I am chairman of the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland. Since 1988 I was chairman of the Independent Radio and Television Commission.

Dealing first with the Broadcasting Bill 2006, I do not propose to comment on each head of the Bill given the time constraints. We have available for the committee and the members a copy of the submission we made here previously and we will answer any questions after my initial introduction.

The Broadcasting Commission of Ireland welcomes the publication of the general scheme of the Broadcasting Bill 2006. It has promoted and supported what is for us an important concept, namely, a single content regulation and that has now been adopted in the Bill.

In this regard, we made submissions both to the Forum on Broadcasting in May 2002 and to this committee in September 2003, July 2005 and October 2006. We responded also to the OX report, with which members will be familiar, in September 2004. When the committee issued its report we welcomed that also. If I were to pick a single matter of significance to the commission it is the concept of single content regulation.

On the proposed structures of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, the Bill contemplates the establishment of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland under which there are two committees. The first of those is a compliance committee and then a licensing-contract awards committee. We welcome the establishment of the single committee dealing with compliance. Effectively, that is a merger of the current functions of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission, which is a separate commission from the BCI, with the compliance and monitoring functions of the BCI, which are currently exercised by us. It emphasises the operational nature of the functions and separates policy from the operational functions. That is the first of the committees and it appears to the BCI to be a logical and appropriate way to approach the matters with which it is proposed it would deal.

On the contract awards committee, the BCI believes its function should be undertaken by the main board, namely, the board of the BAI, for two principal reasons. First, I suspect the origin of the decision to divide up the functions in the way that is done in the Bill results from the competitive licensing process. Members will be familiar with the strong competition for radio licences in particular, which have been quite controversial. In respect of that, the licensing environment has changed because until now we were dealing with the licences dealt with under the 1988 Act. That was about parcelling out, if I might use that general term, the spectrum, inviting tenders for licences and going through a licensing process to deal with what was essentially the allocation of a scarce resource. The technological developments have moved on and the new legislation contemplates a different idea of licensing. The BCI believes that competitive licence applications will decline in the coming years. Second, we point to the European experience where the functions of broadcasting regulators in respect of broadcasting policy and the award of licences is almost exclusively within the remit of a single body.

Turning to the role of the Minister, head 32 permits the Minister to issue policy directives to the BAI. The commission is satisfied to endorse the proposal and that reflects the respective roles of the Minister and the regulator. It allows the Minister to set the broad policy framework, which is appropriate, within which the BAI can then make its detailed decisions. It provides a forum and a structure for dialogue on the one hand while maintaining what the BCI regards as being important in these matters, namely, the independence of the regulator.

Head 41 provides that when the Minister receives codes and rules on programming, advertising or other matters made by the BAI he or she should cause copies of those to be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas. It goes on to provide that either House may, by resolution, annul a code or a rule. The BCI does not support that provision as it could undermine the effectiveness and independence of the BAI and could make the introduction of the codes or rules somewhat unworkable. Having set up the independent regulation system and the regime for the development of the codes and rules and giving that job to the BAI or to the BCI, as it is at present, the Minister is then taking it back within the political sphere and allowing a level of debate to be dealt with on a political level rather than on the basis with which it has been dealt heretofore.

Under the public service broadcaster's common provisions, which are dealt with under heads 70 to 108, it is provided that the Minister retains overall control over public broadcasting while the BAI must be consulted on a significant amount of the company's activities, in particular, those with a commercial dimension.

A reporting role is envisaged for the compliance committee in a range of areas. The commission is satisfied to support the general principle of the retention of approval by the Minister as outlined under these heads but we are of the view that the sequencing of the relationship between the broadcasters, the BAI, and the Minister should be more consistent. It is proposed, therefore, that inputs in respect of all matters where approval is required by the public broadcasters should be channelled through the BAI, which would then have an opportunity to comment on the matters in question before remitting the submissions to the Minister.

Dealing briefly with some other provisions, and I am conscious of the fact that I am merely touching on these as we proceed because of the time constraints involved, head 36 proposes the reintroduction of a levy. The BCI is broadly supportive of that. Under the old regime before the 2001 Act there was a levy in operation and the BCI, or the IRTC as it was then, was funded through the Exchequer. It is the commission's view that the manner of raising the levy and the types of income which will be subject to the levy should be a matter for the discretion of the BAI.

On a separate matter, namely, the enforcement of regulatory decisions, this issue has been problematic because the commission has taken a type of sledgehammer approach where the only option one has in dealing ultimately with problems that arise in respect of enforcement is the withdrawal of the licence, which can be too heavy a penalty to visit in respect of some of the matters with which we deal. That is always done against a background of a very compliant industry. In other words, the commission has not had a problem with regulation in respect of the broadcasters but the way in which the sanctions are currently set up only allows for the sanction of the withdrawal of the licence, which is not appropriate. The commission has always been in favour of the idea of fines and has taken a great deal of time to consider it. We have sought advice on a number of occasions and are always met with the proposition that fining, as such, would create constitutional problems and is an area that would have to be examined in more depth. In the wording of the proposals in the Bill there is a degree of caution and a question of looking to the Attorney General for advice in respect of that. If it is possible, we are in favour of it but we are aware of the constitutional problems surrounding it.

The second segment refers to the roll-out of digital terrestrial broadcasting. I wish to comment briefly on the background to digital broadcasting, with which the members of the committee will be familiar. The Broadcasting Act 2001 provided a legislative framework for the licensing of digital television and radio services in Ireland. Unfortunately, progress was hampered because there was difficulty with the appointment of a multiplex operator. It did not take place, largely due to issues of economic viability. In the meantime, satellite and cable operators such as Sky, NTL and Chorus achieved considerable market penetration in digital broadcasting. The matter was revisited to some extent when the Department launched a DTT pilot project in 2006. It commissioned a network of three multiplexes at two transmitter sites and these were beamed or geared towards 600 to 1,000 homes. The pilot project was officially launched by the Minister on 5 March 2007 and it is anticipated to run until August 2008.

The Broadcasting (Amendment) Act 2007 sets out the responsibilities of the BCI, RTE, ComReg and the Minister. The principal objective is to provide for the transmission by digital terrestrial means of television and radio content and other data. The Act also provides the legislative framework for the switch off of television broadcasting by analogue means. The key objective in this regard is, at a minimum, that DTT would guarantee that Irish viewers would have the ability to continue to receive free-to-air television services after the analogue switch off. It also provides for additional content and services on either a free-to-air or pay basis. From a consumer perspective DTT has further platform choice. Economically, it facilitates new media and business opportunities.

I will mention the role of the key players. ComReg's role under the legislation is concerned with the allocation of the digital television multiplexes. Initially, one will be provided to RTE to cover the entire community in the State. The BCI will make arrangements for the establishment and maintenance of three other national television multiplexes. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources has responsibility for determining the date of the analogue switch off.

With regard to the role of the BCI, we consider policy development as central to the work on DTT. The BCI has undertaken this work through consultation, knowledge building and research. That research is both national and international. In formulating its policy the BCI has adopted a phased approach to the planning and introduction of DTT in Ireland. During phase 1, targeted consultations were undertaken with a number of organisations. A total of 26 meetings were held with key stakeholders. They covered a range of issues linked to the commission's development of policy for DTT and include: learning and experience from the DTT pilot; economic and business issues for the establishment and long-term sustainability of the DTT platform; ownership and control issues; content carriage and content packages offered on the platform; technical issues; disability; and access.

In phase 2 the outcomes of these meetings, together with the independent research commissioned by the BCI, informed the draft BCI DTT licensing policy. That policy paper formed the basis of a discussion at a forum of interested parties which took place on 22 November last. It was well attended by the interested parties. The board will consider the outcomes of that meeting and decide on the final policy on DTT multiplex licensing at its board meeting on 17 December. That will lead to the licensing, which will commence in the first quarter of 2008.

I am conscious of the time constraint. I have referred to a variety of matters within the Bill rather than try to cover every aspect of it. These are the matters we believe will be of interest to the committee and are matters which we wish to bring to its attention at this stage.

Thank you for an informative presentation. I will take questions from Deputy Coveney, Deputy McManus and Senator O'Toole in that order.

I apologise for arriving a little late to the meeting. I had a media interview which went on for longer than expected. I wish to focus primarily on some of the practical implications of digital terrestrial television. Can Mr. Maguire give us an indication of the type of applicants applying for the three multiplexes? RTE is to be given one. Is there capacity on each multiplex to have four or six stations?

Mr. Conor Maguire

More than that. There will be capacity for approximately ten stations. I can give the Deputy a technical answer.

I understood there would be approximately 40 channels across the four multiplexes. There could be up to ten channels per multiplex. RTE is being given one of them and will, therefore, have the option of producing extra programming on new channels. There is plenty of space. What type of companies or consortia are showing an interest in the other three? I understand that mobile phone companies, for example, would like to access some of that spectrum. Could Mr. Maguire explain why?

This new DTT system will have no impact for many people, for example, subscribers to Sky or some other multichannel system that they receive via satellite or cable. DTT will be a new competitor for those services. Will Mr. Maguire outline the difference in pricing and what the average home owner can expect in terms of value for money? Mr. Maguire said that during phase 1 there was discussion on access and disability issues. Does that mean it will be possible to have full captioning of all programming on a digital network, as opposed to the analog network? Although significant progress has been made in this regard, particularly by RTE, we are given excuses that there are technical difficulties and it is expensive to provide captioning for the deaf or hard of hearing. Can digital technology overcome those problems?

We have made a case, in the context of Dáil reform, for live coverage of committee, Dáil and Seanad debates. We are told that it should be possible to provide this through a digital spectrum in a straightforward and simple way. I am concerned that people who currently have free-to-air television and access to RTE 1, Network 2, TV3, TG4, BBC1 and BBC2, particularly in Border areas, will potentially no longer have that access. The UK is also transferring to a digital network but the two networks will be separate. People will lose an analogue service, while a new digital service will be in place, but RTE's multiplex, which will be free, may not have the BBC1 and BBC2 services. There is therefore the potential for a downgrading of free-to-air channels, so it is important to reassure people that will not be the case. I presume that TV3 will automatically be on the RTE multiplex, so people will have RTE1, Network 2, TG4 and TV3. I understand, however, that there are problems with BBC1, BBC2 and other channels that are currently free-to-air, so I would like to know how we will overcome that problem.

Will householders incur a cost? Presumably one will need a digital box to receive digital television, in the same way that households have Sky boxes. The analogue system will be switched off and that will require people to have a digital box in their houses, but how much will it cost? We do not want to ask people who currently have free-to-air television and who pay a licence fee, to pay for a digital box.

There are quite a number of questions there.

Mr. Conor Maguire

I shall pass some of them to my colleagues. I will start with the last question. There will be a capital cost and one will need a set-top box in order to receive digital terrestrial television. It will be somewhat similar to the set-top boxes we are familiar with, but it will be on a one-off basis. It is not expected to be a very expensive item. The costing has not been fully worked out. There will be an initial one-off cost, however, after which the service will be free. That will apply to all the free-to-air channels the Deputy mentioned.

Does Mr. Maguire have a ballpark figure for what that will cost?

Mr. Conor Maguire

I do not want to speculate on that because it is an economic matter to be worked out between those charged with the production of the boxes and the way in which the market is expected to operate in respect of that.

Mr. Conor Maguire

All I would say is that it is not hundreds of euro. Perhaps Mr. O'Keeffe could comment on that.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We would be cautious about giving a view, but there is a working group which includes the Department, the BCI and manufacturing industry representatives. That group is designing an effective box for the Irish market at the cheapest possible cost. We are conscious of that issue. The group's objective is to come up with a box that works in the Irish market and that is produced at a cost that is not prohibitive for consumers.

Mr. Conor Maguire

We can be more precise on the number of people who rely on analogue television currently. It was 29% at the last survey. The switch-off date must take into account the number of people who depend on analogue television, as well as the other services available through Sky, NTL and Chorus. There is an urgency in ensuring the success of the overall project. The Deputy's first question concerned people who are showing interest.

The last question concerned the 29% of people who may lose channels as a result of the switch-over.

Mr. Conor Maguire

If it happened today, one would be talking in terms of 29%.

They would lose BBC1, BBC2, ITV, and BBC Northern Ireland.

Mr. Conor Maguire

They would lose the analogue service, yes.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

The 29% refers to everyone on analogue. A significant percentage of those are in the Border region and would lose the UK services, but it would not be the entire 29%. I do not think we have that figure.

Ms Celene Craig

No. The precise figure is not available because people receive those services on an over-spill basis, which is not monitored in any great detail. We do not have exact figures for them but they are broadly positioned around the Border areas and down the east coast.

Is the BCI saying it is a maximum of 29%?

Ms Celene Craig

That is just what it is.

I will allow Deputy Coveney's questions to be answered first. I have signalled that Deputy McManus will be next and then other speakers will offer.

Mr. Conor Maguire

Subject to correction, as I understand it, currently the 29% we are talking about are people who depend on analogue services. That is for the entire country. The Deputy's first question concerned who were likely to be the licensees carried on multiplexes. We must take it on a phased basis because this is work in progress. We are in the process of developing a licensing process, which will ultimately answer the Deputy's question. We are more than half way through that, but we expect to be in a position to commence the licensing process in the first quarter of 2008. Ms Craig will provide more details on that.

Ms Celene Craig

We hope the licensing process will commence in the first quarter of next year. The licensing process will be run on the basis of a competition and there will be a set period within which applications can be made. Following an evaluation by the BCI, we hope to award contracts sometime around mid-2008.

Mr. Conor Maguire

I will ask Mr. O'Brien to deal specifically with disability access, which was a concern I noted.

Mr. Neil O’Brien

With regard to subtitling and captioning, the BCI currently sets percentages for each broadcaster that comes under its jurisdiction. These are coming up for review during 2008, so we will be assigning new percentages as part of that process. Digital probably improves access to subtitling or captioning because sometimes if one is a bit too far from the transmitter and one gets wind or other interference on the signal, it can take away the captioning. However, on a digital signal it is much more robust, so the captioning should be there if the signal is there. I do not see any other constraints emerging as regards captioning that digital will introduce. It should achieve the same level of coverage and more as required.

Mr. Conor Maguire

Another question was asked about televising the Dáil, or what one might call a Dáil channel. That is likely to be on the public service side and would therefore be appropriate to the RTE multiplex. That is not to say that if an operator thought it was commercially viable to do so, they would not put it on their platform.

People might pay a lot to switch us off.

Mr. Conor Maguire

It is of a public service nature so it is likely to be carried on that side of the house, instead of the commercial side. I think that covers it.

I thank the BCI representatives for attending the committee. I compliment them because they came to talk about DTT and presented us with a close analysis of the Broadcasting Bill, which is helpful for our work. The Oireachtas channel is quite an important little advance and we should not dismiss it. As I understand it, the experience in the United States has been that it is extremely useful and quite popular, particularly for special interest groups looking at committee meetings. We should not undersell the importance of that. At a time when politics has been downgraded for a variety of reasons, the day-to-day work we do would stand up very well to public scrutiny, if the public got the chance to scrutinise it.

I cannot comment on many of the points made on the Bill because I have not had the chance to look at it closely. However, has the digital box been designed yet? In regard to the codes and rules the BCI is resisting any idea of Oireachtas oversight. I fundamentally disagree with it. It would be good for the BCI and the public to have some kind of oversight, even in terms of public information. The BCI can trust us and I suggest it might adopt a slightly less defensive approach on that.

I understand there will be no need for domestic aerials once this DTT comes into play. They are still quite evident and I imagine some are probably in a dangerous condition. I do not know if anything could be done, or if the BCI could suggest anything, to get rid of them. Perhaps the BCI will comment on that.

I am very new to this brief, so excuse me if I ask obvious questions. It seems the position of TG4 is unique and rather peculiar. Even in yesterday's budget, significant funding was given to TG4. The BCI may have commented on it, but perhaps it could advise us on how it sees the role of TG4 develop into the future and how it relates to the new Bill.

In regard to television licences, the system of knocking on doors and catching people seems very old fashioned. Has the BCI a view on the collection of television licence fees which could be a little more in tune with the technical developments it is advancing here?

Mr. Conor Maguire

I will take the last point first. The collection of the television licence fee is not within our remit. We might have personal views on it but we do not have responsibility for collection. The Deputy is talking about the way it is collected.

I will not hold the BCI to it but I am curious to know if it has a looked at this at all.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

The only involvement we would have would be in the concept of the licence fee itself and whether it is desirable to support public service broadcasting. We would have taken a view on that as a policy. A licence fee is an appropriate mechanism of funding for a public service broadcasting system. In this jurisdiction there is a mix of funding, both commercial and the licence fee, which is public funding. We support that concept because in this jurisdiction, unlike in the UK, a public service broadcasting system could not be sustained unless one had that combination. However, the mechanism for collection would be outside our remit.

Mr. Conor Maguire

I will go to what struck me most in terms of what the Deputy asked, that is, the codes and rules and the question of what she described as Dáil oversight. I do not intend this to be taken as a discourtesy to elected representatives and the work they but the philosophy behind having an independent regulator is to ensure one takes it out of the political remit and develop the areas one gives to that regulator which, in this case, includes the question of codes and rules. We have recently drafted codes and rules. We have set up a very open process which is conducted on the basis of the widest possible consultation taking into account stakeholders and the broader public, whether in terms of the children's code, the advertising codes or the codes and standards at which we have been looking. We are also equipped to do the research necessary both nationally and internationally in respect of that. We do it on a phased and an open basis. We always announce the different phases and we get input from the broadest possible spectrum in regard to it.

It seems slightly contradictory for legislators to say on the one hand that an independent institution, such as the BCI, is needed, and that an independent stance from its work must be maintained so that it is not within the political arena while on the other hand say that the product of all of that and of the processes set up to achieve the desired results of that independence should be taken back into what is ultimately a political arena.

Of course, we should be answerable for our processes, whether in terms of coming in here or being the subject matter of directives from the Minister or whatever. We should be answerable in that sense for the way we do things and should ensure we do them appropriately, properly and not on a partial basis favouring any particular stakeholder or contributor to the process about which we are talking. Once one sets up a valid system of doing that, of doing in depth research and of making it transparent, it does not seem logical to take it out of that arena and put it back into the legislative one. It is only on that basis that we say the codes and rules should be laid before the House and that they can be annulled by the House having gone through all those processes which are open and transparent and are contributed to by the people involved. That is our stance on that matter.

I do not want to get too fired up in respect of it but independence is something we guard very carefully. We want to be seen as totally independent of the various influences. It is not an easy patch to protect. In the licensing process, we have been the subject matter of 16 judicial review attempts which, to date, we have successfully resisted. It gives one an indication that when one is involved in licensing, one must be extremely strong and one's processes must be strong, which I believe they are.

Going back to a simpler question on the digital box, the pilot about which we spoke gives an indication of the way in which the system will ultimately work. One has a small, oval internal aerial in one's house. I am one of the subjects of the test, so I have the box and the aerial. The box is very similar to the Sky box. One gets a very good digital service which is extremely clear. It will also have a capacity for high definition television as well, which is even clearer. The concern of many people who go on television is that it will be so clear, everything will be seen.

On TG4, we regulate it in the sense that we are the content regulator. As far as we are concerned, TG4 is an entirely laudable station and is totally compliant. It is very much to the fore as far as television stations are concerned. Perhaps Mr. Michael O'Keeffe or Ms Celene Craig will say more on that. I believe I have covered the principal areas but perhaps Mr. Neil O'Brien would like to say something.

Mr. Neil O’Brien

There are two areas. The first relates to the coverage, about which we spoke earlier. The network is primarily designed for reception on a aerial at chimney level on a house. That is predominately for rural areas because to achieve a design on the basis of indoor reception with a small aerial everywhere would need a large number of transmitters and very high power. In the city areas like Dublin, Cork, Limerick and perhaps Galway, the network will be designed for indoor portable coverage with the type of aerial about which Mr. Maguire spoke, and that might equate to approximately 50% to 53% population coverage. The rest will be based on a small aerial on the chimney.

In terms of set-top boxes, to date an initial specification has been agreed by a working group. It is now being sent out to the manufacturers for comment and we are waiting on that feedback to hear are there any difficulties with the manufacture of this box. Noises we have heard back so far unofficially are that no issues have arisen yet, but it still has not closed and we are still waiting on feedback on it.

There are also some comforts on the type of box and technology we are using in that France is also going the same type of route with MPEG-4. In France, they are also looking at saying that from 2008 onwards any television set sold in France must include an integrated digital receiver. Therefore, there are developments in other European countries that help Ireland achieve its objectives of getting DTT up and running.

I thank the delegation for a most interesting presentation. I want to touch on one of the issues raised by Deputy McManus. If we take the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland's argument, which I do not completely accept, of its objection to regulations or codes being laid before the House, and let us say we accept its argument about it keeping the matter away from the political fray, surely there should be some redress, challenge or appeals process for people. Even the Ombudsman is subject to an appeal to the High Court, as are others. I accept that there may be a case for keeping politicians out of it, although issues in areas like planning and health are discussed here, sent out and brought back. I do not want to go into that larger discussion, but I would like to hear Mr. Maguire's views. To take it slightly further, is Mr. Maguire saying the BCI would be like a completely independent republic with no challenge? I will come back to him on that.

This is a more fundamental question which is not meant to aggravate. Why are we introducing digital terrestrial television? I asked this question when we brought in mobile telephones in the mid-1980s. At present I can walk down to Peats and spend €400 on a set-top box and a receiver, which I can place on my chimney anywhere in Europe from the Urals to Belmullet, to receive BBC1, BBC2, BBC3 and BBC4, ITV1, ITV2, ITV3 and ITV4, and every station imaginable, except RTE1, RTE2, TV3 and TG4. That is because somebody has allowed those free-to-air stations to be encrypted and the commercial reasons behind this are none of our business here. It is appalling.

I am conscious that we never used our short-wave station, we gave away and barely got back our long-wave frequency, and we are now moving into an entirely new area. I still do not believe that digital will be available in the Black Valley in Kerry, whereas they can get Sky television directly with no cost of masts and no arguments. I do not know why we are doing this. Why not take a corner of one of the Astra satellites? I would really like to hear Mr. Maguire's views in that regard.

On another issue, the French have opted for the MPEG-4 convention. Can we be assured that we do not create a Europe with 24 different reception channels such as exist at present between PAL, Mac, etc? Is there a European drift to ensure, for the purposes of a common market, that people can move their televisions from France to Ireland, to the UK and elsewhere, and plug them into the wall to receive?

Why must we go into an area of encryption? Why do we allow encryption of free-to-air channels? Our diaspora are poorly served in that a person in Brussels, without paying anything to Sky or another company, can turn on his or her television and get free-to-air every channel, including those from Malta and Cyprus, selling messages of tourism and commerce, while one can tune into RTE and see and hear nothing. I feel strongly about this. I raised this with the Minister on a number of occasions. I raised it with RTE on a number of occasions and I have never got an acceptable answer.

Mr. Conor Maguire

I will deal with oversight first. I do not accept that there is not oversight. There is an implication that if one does not have Dáil oversight, in some way there is a democratic deficit in the drafting and implementation of the rules. I suppose that is where Senator O'Toole and I fall out. I would not accept that such is so.

When one comes to drafting of codes, some of which are of a highly technical nature and some of which involve a requirement for specified knowledge and research in order to come to a conclusion, if one sets up an institution such as the BCI - or the BAI as it will be - which is responsible for that and which one equips with the best possible means of coming to a conclusion in respect of the development of codes, and then one allies to that the question of the input of the Minister on the directives as to policy, etc., it is being done against a background of the possibility of legal challenge. The processes established allow for appropriate and special input into that type of situation. We would boast the process is a wide consultative one. Normally, for example, when looking at a process for a specific code we are open to suggestion, not just as to the substance of the code but also at any stage as to the way in which the process is being done. I probably would not convince Senator O'Toole at the end of the day in respect of it.

Perhaps another time.

Mr. Conor Maguire

I will leave it at that.

On the next question of why digital, I suppose Senator O'Toole could really have asked, why move to 625 line from 405 line?

That was not my question. I am all in favour of digital, but why do we need terrestrial digital as opposed to satellite digital?

Mr. Conor Maguire

I will hand over to Mr. O'Brien because there was also a technical aspect to the question which related to the French system.

Mr. Neil O’Brien

The fundamental aspect is rights issues. When any broadcaster in Ireland goes to negotiate rights for programmes they pay on the basis that these programmes are provided to 3.5 million people in Ireland. If one opens it up on a free-to-air satellite, even if it only has Ireland and the UK, one then must negotiate the rights for approximately 55 million or 60 million people and the costs rise exponentially. Therefore, to pay for those programmes through advertising becomes practically impossible because acquiring the programmes would be too costly.

Perhaps home produced programming could be made available free-to-air. Under the 2007 Act there is a proposal that RTE will set up a channel for Irish people abroad and maybe that could be considered as a free-to-air channel that could be provided with home content.

Watching on digital satellite at present, there are occasions when RTE will not broadcast a football match for which it has sole rights, for instance. This is merely a matter of pressing buttons. My point is that there is no reason "Prime Time", news programmes and the like should not be available all the time all over Europe. The advantage of digital is that it allows such control to take place.

Mr. Neil O’Brien

That is a matter for which RTE might be able to give Senator O'Toole reasons but it would not be appropriate for me to comment on that.

Mr. Conor Maguire

There was another aspect to the Senator's question regarding the multiplicity of systems and compatibility.

Mr. Neil O’Brien

There is an open enough standard as regards satellite broadcasting. One can buy a satellite dish, attach it to one's caravan or motor home and drive around Europe and pick up the channels offered by various satellite broadcasters.

There are also some international standards in respect of digital terrestrial television. Many set-top boxes are produced in the Far East because those who sell them are interested in obtaining them at the cheapest possible price. As a result, the software used in them may sometimes be only country specific. If people are prepared to pay extra, they may be able to choose a more open standard box which they can bring anywhere.

Will there be an open State tender competition, in which the best price will be sought, in respect of multiplex licences, or will it be a beauty contest?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

The conditions relating to the licensing process, of which there are seven or eight, are set out in the Act. From the point of view of the process, we will set out a guide for submissions. We should probably have the latter in February. We will invite applications in late February or early March and those who apply will be aware of the various criteria. The process would be described as a beauty parade rather than one where the highest price would be accepted.

Is Mr. O'Keeffe referring to the best tender price?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Absolutely.

Will outside consultants be brought in to assist in the awarding of the contract? I pose this question because there is an ongoing wrangle in respect of mobile phone licences.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Some economic research will be undertaken in respect of financial models relating to the operation of multiplex platforms. However, the decision will be taken by the commission.

Will advice be sought from outside consultants?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We will obtain advice before the process begins. However, once it commences, we will be responsible for making the decisions.

The BCI will be exclusively responsible for the process.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Yes.

Mr. Conor Maguire

Generally, that is a position we adopt in respect of board decisions of that nature. Research of an economic nature or otherwise may be carried out beforehand but ultimate responsibility for making decisions rests with the board.

That is good to hear. From a technical perspective, are there likely to be any broadcasting black spots? Will there be, for example, 95% coverage and will some people be left out? This is a concern.

If people choose Sky or other service providers, they must pay an additional cost in respect of high definition, HD, services. If a HD service can be made available at no cost to providers, they should not charge people because the pictures they receive might be a little clearer

I do not want to belabour the point regarding the cost of set-top boxes and accept that there are competition issues at play. However, as a public representative, I am in a position to assure our guests that 98% of people have never heard of the BCI. The minds of the 30% of members of the public who are likely to have to pay for set-top boxes will be extremely focused once they realise that there will be a financial cost. Politicians will be asked why they allowed this to happen.

There is an information vacuum. Some people are aware that the analogue service will be switched off at some stage. However, they do not know the exact date. Members of the public are unaware that they will be obliged to pay for set-top boxes. I could be wrong but the 29% to 30% of people who still receive the analogue service have chosen not to pay for additional television services. It will be difficult to convince them to do so but they will not really have a choice because if they do not opt for digital services, they will not receive any television pictures. The BCI needs to provide information that will break the news somewhat more gently. It was stated the cost involved was not likely to run into hundreds of euro. The lower the cost the better. However, the BCI will determine the minimum cost.

Mr. Conor Maguire

We are conscious of the importance of bringing to the attention of the public the information to which the Deputy refers. We take on board his observations in that regard. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the Minister to decide when analogue services will be switched off. It is not definite but the likelihood is that this will occur in 2012.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We are striving towards switching off the service in 2012.

Will it be done before or after the general election?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I could not possibly comment in that regard. Some of the main factors to be considered relate to when the system will be established and the level of coverage achieved. The commission and the Department will take on board the points the Deputy made in respect of the effect on consumers. We will not be ignoring consumers in the context of any policy decisions made.

Mr. Neil O’Brien

One of the difficulties with high definition television is that there is a need to transmit much more data. A multiplex platform that can carry eight to ten normal standard definition television channels can only carry approximately two to three high definition channels. If high definition services are provided, they reduce the number of channels that can be carried.

Therefore, digital terrestrial television, DTT, will not come in high definition form.

Mr. Neil O’Brien

DTT can be a mix of high and standard definition. However, if we were to introduce high definition services from the outset, the number of channels would be reduced.

One high definition channel could be put in place.

Mr. Neil O’Brien

A shared high definition channel could be put in place. All broadcasters may not be in a position to provide continuous high definition outputs. In such circumstances, a shared channel could be considered. However, that is only an option for consideration.

My point is that there should not be any additional costs.

Mr. Neil O’Brien

We are opting for the MPEG-4 video coding standard and related technology because it supports high definition in an effective manner.

With regard to broadcasting black spots, there are still some, even on the existing analogue network. It has taken RTE 30 years to put a more comprehensive network in place and it is still rolling out additional transmission sites. The RTE multiplex would be required to replicate existing analogue coverage. In terms of commercial multiplexes, we are seeking a minimum of at least 90% population coverage. However, we are also asking that applicants show us how they could go beyond that percentage. When the analogue network in the United Kingdom is switched off, public service multiplexes will provide approximately 98.5% population coverage and commercial multiplexes, 90%. Members can see, therefore, that similar difficulties are arising in other jurisdictions.

Ms Celene Craig

The cost of producing high definition content is extraordinarily high. It is several multiples of the normal cost of producing programmes. This must be borne in mind in respect of the availability and stream of high definition content likely to come through on DTT. The cost to the broadcaster is substantial and a continuous stream would have major cost implications in respect of the production of content. The latter must be borne in mind in the context of expectations relating to high definition services. It is not just about the ability of the system to receive or broadcast high definition content. High definition technology is likely to evolve over the lifetime of the licences. However, initial expectations must be tempered by a realisation regarding the cost of producing high definition content.

I am conscious that I gave an undertaking in respect of the length of the meeting because certain people have other obligations. I will, therefore, take a couple of final questions from Deputies Coveney and McManus. I ask members to be brief.

I wish to ask a couple of questions regarding the current role of the BCI and its semi-involvment with DTT. I am concerned about codes relating to children, advertising standards and any new policy direction the Dáil may decide to take. If the Dáil decided that there could no longer be alcohol advertising on television in Ireland, a fundamental unfairness would arise, particularly in the context of the way the current broadcasting system works, because the decision would apply to RTE 1, Network 2, TV3 and TG4 but not Sky.

Has the delegation any suggestions as to how the question of the unfair treatment of Irish broadcasters versus foreign broadcasters in Ireland can be overcome? They are here as a result of satellite and cable television systems. Is it not the case that when the new multiplexes are allocated, the problem will still remain? For example, if a broadcaster such as Sky or any other foreign broadcaster makes a bid for one of the multiplexes, how can the BCI or the compliance commission under the BAI apply and enforce advertising standards? Current codes and standards are ineffectual, to put it mildly, because they only apply to three or four stations whereas most of the television watched in Ireland is from satellite or cable. As the delegation stated, only 29% of viewers watch on the existing analogue system.

We are imposing constraints on broadcasters which impact on advertising revenue and other marketing aspects. They must contend with competition from foreign broadcasters. The bigger concern is that we cannot do what we are trying to do in terms of reducing the exposure to a certain type of advertisement, whether aimed at children or adults. I ask the delegation for some direction on how this problem can be dealt with, either from a technical point of view or a policy point of view.

I wish to ask a general question about consumer choice. In theory we now have a wider range of choice but there is a lot of material which people would not wish to watch. In my understanding, there is nothing a Sky subscriber can do to prevent channels being accessible, other than controls relating to what children view. If I chose tomorrow to ask that 15% of the channels on my television be taken away because I did not want them, I have no choice in the matter. Is it possible at some point that this kind of choice will be extended? This is about making money and about advertising and ensuring that no matter what one does, one will not be able to control what comes through. Does the delegation understand my point? If one simply does not want this material, there is nothing one can do about it.

Mr. Conor Maguire

The questions are interlinked in a way but I will deal with them separately and I will then ask my colleagues to reply. With regard to the regulation of content, all the commission can deal with are programmes originating in this jurisdiction. Our jurisdiction comes from the remit of the Members as public representatives who pass it on to us in the form of legislation which in turn deals with it on the basis of the national territory, for want of better words. The commission does not have any legal control over programmes originating outside the jurisdiction. That said, we are all subject to the rules and regulations which are drafted and are the product of the EU. Up to now it has been regulated by the television without frontiers directive which has been updated and the new regulation will be introduced soon. We all subscribe to an overall jurisdiction which sets parameters to issues, such as the number of minutes in terms of advertising, and is a form of interlinking.

It is interesting that when the commission began to examine the question of advertising codes for advertising aimed at children there was a quite heated debate. We were being told that this would be very restrictive in this jurisdiction and it would give an unfair advantage to those advertising from outside the jurisdiction and being received in households in this jurisdiction by means of Sky television. Sky is subject to the English jurisdiction which has now taken the view which is a stricter view in some respects about some aspects of the regulation by codes. We do not hear many complaints about that now. The way in which the codes have operated has resulted in the issue working itself out. It is true to say that we can only deal with our own jurisdiction, subject of course to the over-arching European legislation.

On the question of consumer choice, we cannot stop programmes being broadcast on Sky.

I am not asking for the commission to make that choice; I am saying the consumer should have that choice.

Mr. Conor Maguire

I will refer to the commission's control structure. The Broadcasting Act 2001 introduced a new scheme of regulation which means the commission examines anything that is presented to it and gives a stamp of approval for broadcasting. It is then up to the broadcasting entity to apply for carriage on whatever platform, be that Chorus, Sky or NTL. The commission merely gives a stamp of approval to what is proposed to it. This is the only way the commission has control. Whether the broadcast in question is carried or not is another day's work and it is a matter for those with approval to negotiate their way onto a platform.

Mr. Neil O’Brien

One can put a PIN number on a digital systems channel to lock out that channel so that it cannot be viewed by others. Another method called "favourites" is used on many digital receivers. This enables one to set up ten or 12 favourite channels in order and just access the ones that are required while ignoring the other 500. There are options available.

That is not quite the same.

Mr. Neil O’Brien

No.

I am curious about it.

I thank Mr. Maguire and his colleagues for attending this morning and contributing to a very informative debate. I am sure our paths will cross again during the course of the 30th Dáil.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.50 a.m. and adjourned at 10.55 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 13 December 2007.
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