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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, NATURAL RESOURCES AND AGRICULTURE díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 May 2012

Advertising Regulations: Discussion with the National Dairy Council

I welcome Ms Maeve Guthrie, who is the interim chief executive of the National Dairy Council. She is accompanied by Dr. Catherine Logan, who is the council's nutrition manager, and Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald, who is a food economist with the council. I thank them for attending today's meeting.

I draw their attention to the fact that witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I understand that Ms Guthrie will open proceedings and that Dr. Logan may wish to contribute at some stage.

Ms Maeve Guthrie

I thank the committee for giving the National Dairy Council an opportunity to present its views on the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland's proposed code for advertising to children. The National Dairy Council, which is almost 50 years old, oversees the primary school milk scheme. It has earned a reputation as a trusted and credible source of expert information about the health and nutritional benefits of milk and dairy products. The council employs two full-time qualified nutritionists, led by Dr. Catherine Logan, who draw on evidence-based data, scientific research and up-to-date guidelines to inform all of the council's work. That work ranges from the provision of nutritional information to health professionals to the organisation of educational initiatives for the public. As the nutrition programme forms the foundation for all of the council's activity, it positions the council as a key resource of nutrition science and knowledge as part of our role in supporting dairy foods as part of a balanced diet. The National Dairy Council is the expert in dairy.

The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, which regulates content across all television and radio broadcasting, is reviewing the regulation of the marketing of food and drink to children. As part of its review, the BAI has prepared a draft children's commercial communications code in which it proposes to adopt the United Kingdom Food Standards Agency's nutrient profiling model, without amendment, to assess which foods should be classified as less healthy and, therefore, subject to advertising restrictions. The authority has invited submissions as part of stage two of its consultations to be received on or before 31 May 2012.

If the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland's proposal proceeds using the model from the United Kingdom, most cheeses will be subject to advertising restrictions and, more significant, cheese will be officially categorised as less healthy. It is interesting to note that under the same model, diet cola would be classified as healthier than cheese. While the National Dairy Council supports the promotion of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle in accordance with Government guidelines and recognises that the rise in obesity among the young is a key issue that needs to be addressed immediately, cheese intake among Irish children and teenagers is not the issue.

We will present four key concerns regarding the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland's proposal. First, the model used in the United Kingdom and proposed for adoption for certain purposes by the BAI is not used in any other European Union member state. It has also been criticised and described as fundamentally flawed by a large number of organisations and independent experts. For example, it could be argued that the model does not sufficiently acknowledge the role of calcium and or take into account related Irish dietary data.

Second, the process involved the appointment by the BAI of one of the scientists who contributed to the development of the UK model for the purpose of assessing the nutritional responses to the stage one consultation, many of which included criticisms or concerns about the model.

Third, the categorisation of cheese as less healthy will inevitably result in consumer confusion. The Department of Health's food pyramid guidelines recommend three servings per day from the milk, cheese and yogurt food group as part of a balanced diet. Teenagers are advised to consume five servings per day from this food group. If the BAI proposal is implemented, it will cause confusion among consumers and members of the public. Recent research commissioned by the National Dairy Council and carried out by an independent research company confirmed that the potential for consumer confusion is high. Classifying an important food such as cheese as less healthy will not help families plan a balanced diet when the promotion of same and a healthy lifestyle has never been more important.

Fourth, the proposal negatively impacts on the reputation of the Irish cheese industry when there are no justified nutritional grounds for doing so. The dairy sector directly and indirectly employs 34,000 people. Under Food Harvest 2020, cheese production and exports are set to increase significantly but it will be difficult to achieve these targets if cheese is classified as a less healthy food on the home market. It is noteworthy that the United Kingdom, whose model the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland proposes to adopt, does not have the same reputational issues because unlike Ireland it is a net importer of cheese.

The National Dairy Council will present data that is specific to the Irish population showing the importance of cheese as a source of calcium. Insufficient calcium intakes among Irish children and teenagers have been identified as a significant public health concern. Should the BAI progress its proposals based on the United Kingdom model, the National Dairy Council will call for an exemption for cheese from the code or until such time as an independent review is undertaken, with a view to developing a model that is more up to date and appropriate to the needs of the Irish population. Dr. Catherine Logan will address nutritional issues in greater detail.

Dr. Catherine Logan

As Ms Guthrie pointed out, the National Dairy Council supports a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle in accordance with Government guidelines. All the information we provide is based on up to date recommendations and scientific and evidence based data. The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland invited submissions in phase one of the consultation process and subsequently decided to proceed with proposals to adopt the United Kingdom's nutrient profiling model, without amendment and in full. It has supported its decision by stating there are no justified nutritional grounds for not adopting the UK model. I will present a number of key points which contradict the BAI position.

Data from Irish food consumption surveys support an exemption for cheese and show it is beneficial to include cheese in the diet of Irish children and teenagers. Insufficient calcium intake among Irish children and teenagers is a concern, as the BAI's working group acknowledges. The figures indicate that 37% and 28% of Irish girls and boys, respectively, between the ages of five and 12 years have insufficient calcium intake. Among teenagers the equivalent figures are 42% and 23%, respectively.

In addition to being a valuable source of protein, cheese provides a range of other nutrients, including, to name but a few, phosphorous and B vitamins. Implementing the UK model would suggest it is healthier to consume products such as diet cola, which has little or no nutritional value compared to cheese. Overweight and obesity are problems and the National Dairy Council welcomes and commends any decisions or actions aimed at tackling them. We would like such action to be implemented at soon as possible. Research shows that cheese is not an issue in this respect as overweight and obesity broadly doubled in the period from 1990 to 2007, during which cheese intake has remained relatively static.

On the national surveys and saturated fat content of cheese, the population dietary goals suggest that 10% of total energy should come from saturated fat. The data collected as part of the national children's food survey and national teens' food survey clearly show that only 1% of the total energy or calories consumed by children and teenagers comes from cheese. It is clear from these surveys that there are no justified grounds for restricting the advertising of cheese. On the contrary, they indicate that it is beneficial to include cheese in the diet of Irish children and teenagers.

The United Kingdom nutrient profiling model has been criticised by a number of Irish researchers and organisations. One of the major criticisms levelled at the model is that its conclusions are based on an amount of 100g. For visual purposes I have brought with me approximately 100g of cheese. As is clear from the amount, 100g does not reflect the typical portion size of cheese consumed. The food pyramid recommends a portion of 28g and surveys show that Irish children and teenagers consume even less than the recommended portion.

The UK model was developed in 2004-05 and is somewhat dated at this point. We understand that previous drafts of the model included calcium. These were justified to reduce the weighting of calcium, partly due to concerns that manufacturers would fortify foods with additional calcium to achieve clearance. This matter is being addressed at European Union level and the National Dairy Council has been informed by the Food Safety Authority that fortification for such purposes would be viewed extremely negatively. It is also important to note that the model in place for this purpose in the United Kingdom is not used in any other country. The food standards agencies of Australia and New Zealand have implemented a version of the UK model in respect of health claims but have amended it significantly to address concerns and flaws they have identified.

The implementation of this model will result in public confusion. As Ms Guthrie stated, the Department of Health's food pyramid recommends three servings from the milk, cheese and yogurt food group and five servings from this group for teenagers. One serving is equal to one third of a pint of milk, a carton of yogurt or a matchbox size piece of cheese. The implementation of a model categorising cheese as less healthy would contradict the Department's guidelines and inevitably result in consumer confusion. It is noteworthy that the consumption of cheese is promoted throughout the European Union via the school milk scheme under which a range of cheeses is eligible for subsidy.

Clearly, significant initiatives are in place to promote the consumption of cheese. If the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland implements its proposals, it runs the risk of jeopardising this good work and accentuating misinformation and misconceptions regarding cheese, a healthy balanced diet and dietary guidelines in general.

I propose to raise a couple of other concerns that have been identified in respect of the BAI proposal. It is a matter of record that the external expert appointed by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland during phase one to review nutrition submissions was one of the scientists who contributed to the development of the model in the UK. A number of submissions made by nutrition experts during the first phase of the consultation were, perhaps, not sufficiently acknowledged or recognised. An example is the Food Safety Authority of Ireland which stated: "The inclusion of cheese with less healthy food products which are subject to advertising restrictions presents some challenges to the adoption of the UK nutrient profile model in Ireland". This specific submission goes on to explain how difficult it would be for children and teenagers to achieve their calcium requirements if cheese was excluded from the diet. That is simply due to the overwhelming volume of milk or yoghurt that would need to be consumed to achieve calcium requirements. This would be a particular problem for the younger children within the higher calcium requirement lifestage. That is just one example of the submissions that, perhaps, was not sufficiently recognised. Needless to say there are numerous others, including a submission from Professor Mike Gigney, University College Dublin, who voiced concerns regarding the implementation of this model in Ireland. That concludes my summary of the key information of the NDC's concerns of the BAI's proposals.

We do not believe the implementation of the UK nutrient profiling model is in the best public health interest for children or teenagers and it could be viewed to be somewhat flawed. I ask Ms Maeve Gutherie to conclude.

Ms Maeve Guthrie

Between 1990 and the mid-2000s, overweight rates among Irish teenage children almost doubled. Clearly the issue needs to be addressed within the context of education on what is a balanced diet and a healthy lifestyle. During the same period, as Dr. Catherine Logan said, consumption levels of cheese by Irish children remained relatively static, therefore, cheese is not the issue. As a parent I do not believe the BAI proposals in their current format will help any family plan a balanced diet. What it will do is cause huge confusion which is borne out by the results of some recent research undertaken by an independent research company, Empathy Research. I shall highlight three points with regard to that research. The research was completed last week and there were more than 1,000 respondents in an online panel. The three points are as follows. More than 80% either agreed or strongly agreed that the categorisation of cheese as less healthy would confuse Irish people because we generally view cheese as a healthy food. More than 80% agreed or strongly agreed that it would send out the wrong message to teenagers and children. As Dr. Catherine Logan pointed out we know there is a calcium deficiency among those populations within Ireland. Almost 80% agreed or strongly agreed it could damage the Irish dairy industry which is a hugely important part of the economy.

Aside from all the nutritional arguments and nutritional rationale if the BAI goes ahead there is potential for a major reputation impact with economic knock-on consequences. In its review of the proposals, the BAI stated that the economic arguments were not sufficient to warrant mending the model. For us it is not about the economic impact of advertising revenue it is much more about the reputational damage we can do by classifying cheese as less healthy in the home marketing abroad. I invite Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald to comment on the economic impact.

Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald

The reality is that there is planned growth for the dairy sector post 2015 when milk quotas are to be abolished. Deliveries of milk will increase by 2.5 billion litres to 2.75 billion litres. The plan is to convert at least half of that into 100,000 tonnes of cheese which will all be sold abroad. This will be undermined in a situation where the product is categorised as a less healthy food product at home. In all the markets where we would hope to sell our product we need to be able to assure prospective consumers that what they are getting is high quality, highly traced and highly nutritional products. A classification that is not based on scientific nuitrition but classifies the product as less healthy will hugely undermine our export capabilities. It is important to recognise that the dairy industry has a turnover of €4 billion in the Irish economy. In that sense, 90% of what the industry buys stays in the economy. It is a huge multiplier in terms of direct and indirect jobs and has an export value of €2.75 billion which is planned to grow.

Those are graphic presentations about the implications for the industry. I have a couple of questions but I will call members first.

I welcome the representatives who are appearing before the committee. This is an important issue. It does not make much sense that cheese would be classified as a less healthy food product. One could use the comparison of Coca Cola or several other comparisons. In general, fast foods would be a major contributory factor to obesity in teenagers particularly during the Celtic tiger when people rushed from A to B and did not concentrate on the food that is good for us. The representatives mentioned certain targets such as Food Harvest 2020. There are large targets to be reached as regards increasing dairy production in that period and 2020 is only eight years away. If we do not reach those targets the country will suffer the consequences, especially with the abolition of milk quotas in 2015. We have a good name in Ireland for milk production and the export of products such as cheese all over the world. This could have a detrimental effect on the whole dairy industry which is key to the economy and agriculture in general. Dairy products have been one of the drivers of the agricultural industry in recent years. If such a classifications was to take effect at this time it would have a serious detrimental effect on confidence in the industry which is key to every industry and confidence in the agricultural industry is high. If that confidence is not backed up, which the evidence suggests, we are in serious trouble. It does not make sense.

The formula appears to be a carbon copy of the English system. What is the formula used in England for calculating the exclusion of calcium in the system? Why is its system being used as a copy and paste exercise here? It does not make sense. We have good systems and there is no reason we should copy another system when we can do our own business. It is a matter of which we need to be conscious. For the benefit of industry in general we must ensure this does not happen.

I welcome the representatives and thank them for their presentation. I speak as a farmer and a biochemist. This is a crazy situation. Our products are manufactured to the highest standards. We have taken the dairy industry to the point where we are world leaders in quality. That we are about to sabotage that reputation is mad. There is no way that cheese can be classified as less healthy, taken in moderation. Calcium intake in children is incredibly important, I have a young family and we cannot get enough milk into them. The consequences of osteoporosis in later life have to be avoided at all costs.

I am disappointed that the school milk programme is not pursued as strongly as it should. There is need to start educating parents on the importance of getting children to drink milk rather the juices which are everywhere that have no nutritional value. When I hear the representatives mention that the "experts" are telling us how to run the industry I get upset because so-called experts in the past destroyed the country in many other fields. It must be remembered that in a review document already, there were so-called experts who were basically capturing policy. They were advising because they had their own agenda.

This is a black and white issue in that cheese is a very healthy product. I am glad that this was brought up today. Obesity is something I have written about quite a bit, and it is a very important topic. It is not just a problem with children but also with adults. It is a huge problem in Ireland. There are several reasons for this. People are not eating enough vegetables, are not taking enough exercise, and are not educated enough, yet everybody is obsessed with losing weight. Television programmes dealing with weight loss are probably the most watched programmes. It is an obsession, yet people are unable to change their lifestyle.

I believe we need to go back to basics in schools and bring back food economics. We need to start teaching people how to cook, rather than walk down to the chipper and consume a big pile of grease and fat. If we are going to tackle this, reclassifying cheese will not matter. People will still go out a buy pizzas and while cheese is part of pizza, cheese is not the problem here. We need to teach people how to cook. We are going to see food price inflation over the next few years. The price of food has held back inflation for many years but that will not continue indefinitely. The only way people will get value for money with food is by going back to the primary ingredients and cooking properly. People can eat a lot of food if they eat healthily and if they cook the food from scratch.

There is a knee-jerk reaction which states that cheese is not right. To say that one of our primary products in the dairy sector is less healthy is crazy. No other country would dream of this. I grew up on a dairy farm. The next thing they will be saying is that our milk is bad. Where does this stupidity end? We need to turn around and use this opportunity to focus on the real issues of how people view food. For a long time people were saying that we can eat faster and that certain meals can be prepared in ten minutes. Food was never meant to be prepared in ten minutes and was never meant to be consumed in five minutes. People were meant to spend a little bit of time on healthy eating. To classify cheese as unhealthy as the panacea for this problem does not stack up. I have seen many things slip under the radar but we cannot allow this to happen. I would be behind any influence that is needed to get rid of this. Many of my colleagues would be as well. The Minister is also annoyed about it.

I would like to put these experts in front of us here. Sometimes people are classifying themselves as experts when they do not know what they are talking about. This does not stack up under a number of categories. It is a very dangerous thing to have even come across the radar. We will do everything we can to oppose this ruling.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. I also come from a farming background and I agree with the points made by my colleagues. It is very worrying. Dr. Logan pointed out the matchbox size of cheese, and the intake is very low. We have a problem with obesity but it is not coming from dairy products. With the removal of quotas in 2015 many people are preparing to produce more milk and more cheese. That is very good for our economy and we cannot do anything to undermine that. I will support my colleagues to do whatever we can to make sure that our best industry is not undermined in this fashion. The witnesses have my full support on this.

I would first like to apologise for missing the start of the presentation. We were all at a presentation eight or nine months ago when the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland first flagged some of the issues that it had about nutritional advertising for children. The proposals were met with some alarm. Proposals on the regulation of advertising for cheese to children defied logic, according to almost everybody who attended that presentation. They were well briefed and well quizzed on the rationale behind it. They did not give real answers and did not provide the real science behind why they were doing what they were doing. This is the challenge.

There is no doubt that we need to protect the industry, the dairy sector and the individual producers. The witnesses have to come up with a science which states that we need to protect children's nutrition as well. They also need to come up with an argument against the BAI's proposals, which do not make sense on the face of it. They need to tell the BAI that it could be doing other things to protect children's health and how advertising affects how children behave. This proposal seems to be plucked out without any rationale. However, the problem is that it is out there in the ether. The challenge for this committee and the National Dairy Council have is to head that off with science.

We will ask for the assistance of the National Dairy Council and others to back with real science what we believe to be the logic on this. We need to say that the BAI needs to address other issues if it is going to protect children or other sectors of society against poor or bad practice in the advertising world. We should ask for continued dialogue on science. That is our challenge. We are exporters of milk products and there is a huge concern here but the focus has to be on how we believe that the BAI is wrong to target children and cheese advertising. There is a huge challenge here and I think it is based on science and nutrition. That is where we should focus our energy.

About a month ago those in question published their response to the first consultation process, in which they dismissed or did not take on board the 200 or so consultations that took place. There is a bit of work to do in countering this document. Professor Gibney in UCD and the FSAI have concerns that were not recognised properly. The FSAI has issues with calcium and the issue of fortification of things like chocolate products, which was being used but which would no longer be approved. We need to make those points when we are making a submission to the Minister about our concerns.

It is important that we challenge a model from another country which is eight years old at this stage and which has very few similarities with the industry itself. We have to develop an alternative proposal that includes calcium. Such a proposal would ensure that dairy products, particularly cheese, would not be listed in the category of foods that are less safe. It is important to realise that obesity levels have risen and that the consumption of cheese, particularly among children and teenagers, has not increased. There is no correlation between the problems which the challenge under discussion presents and cheese consumption. The dairy industry has recognised the need to brand and develop products such as cheese strings, etc., which, I understand, are not excluded. There are products which are targeted at members of the younger generation in an effort to encourage them to consume more cheese, etc., but which are not considered harmful. However, confusion is being created by statements to the effect that cheese is harmful. The food pyramid to which reference has been made, and which provides a graphic demonstration of what is involved here, contains the terms "assumed", "recommended" and "actually consumed". That pyramid puts this matter into context.

It was good for our guests to come before us in order that they could put their points of view across. What the committee will try to do is make a fairly succinct submission to the BAI. It will also make its views - on which, I believe, there is unanimity among members - known to the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

We should invite representatives from the BAI to come before us in order to discover what is the logic behind the proposal that has been put to the committee.

Deputies O'Mahony and Heydon and I were briefed on this matter. I am sure there would be no difficulty in inviting representatives from the authority to come before us to make a presentation on the proposal.

There does not appear to be any logic to the proposal, which will sabotage an industry that is-----

Against the background of what we have heard, in my opinion it is difficult to match up the two. I am sure the authority has its reasons for framing the proposal as it has done. What we need to do is present a counter proposal which is based on nutritional best practice and which takes cognisance of the Irish situation. I do not believe it would be necessary to produce a very extensive document in that regard. It should be possible to keep matters succinct in terms of the counterproposal we produce.

I thank Ms Guthrie, Dr. Logan and Mr. Fitzgerald for attending. We were present at the Aviva Stadium this morning for the launch by An Taoiseach of Teagasc's research and innovation transfer initiative. In conjunction with all players in the industry - particularly the main dairy companies - Teagasc is developing new technology relating to food research and this is being made available to the industry in order that those within it can develop best practice. This is an example of an arm of the State, namely, Teagasc, working with industry. In respect of the matter we have been discussing this morning, however, a confused message is being put forward by another arm of the State. We must ensure that common sense comes into play in respect of this issue.

Ms Maeve Guthrie

We have a more visual summary of what we have presented if members wish to see it.

I would appreciate it if Ms Guthrie could circulate that to members.

Ms Maeve Guthrie

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to come before the committee.

I again thank Ms Guthrie and our other guests.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.45 a.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 15 May 2012.
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