Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht

Briefing on Current and Future Plans for the School Building Unit: Department of Education

Chairman

We are meeting with officials from the school building unit in the Department of Education. I welcome Mr. Hubert Loftus, assistant secretary, head of planning and building unit; Ms Martina Mannion, assistant secretary, head of inclusion division; Ms Áine Cusack, principal officer, schools capital appraisal section; Mr. John Dolan, technical manager with lead responsibility for climate strategy for decarbonisation of school buildings; Mr. Brendan Doody, principal officer, special education section; and Mr. Martin McLoughlin, principal officer, special education section.

The officials are here to brief the committee on the current and future plans for the school building unit and, specifically building and provision of special classrooms at existing school buildings, provision of space to accommodate visiting therapists, forward planning to account adequately for future need to include both the census demographics and county development and local area planning, quality of engagement with school community and school management in the planning of new schools and extensions, and planning for adequate provision for both patronage and language in Gaelscoileanna and Gaelscholáistí.

As for the format of the meeting, I will invite Mr. Loftus to make a brief opening statement. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has an allocated slot, which will depend on the number of people at the meeting. As everyone is probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on its website following today’s meeting.

Before I begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the chair to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative to comply with such direction.

I now call Mr. Loftus to make his opening statement.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

In the interest of time, I will just cover the main elements of my statement rather than the full statement.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss our school infrastructure and our plans going forward. I will use the opportunity of the opening statement to provide a high-level overview of our work, which may assist the committee in our discussions today. I have also provided an appendix to my statement dealing with the specific topics raised by the committee.

Planning and delivering on the climate agenda to meet 2030 and 2050 emissions targets will be a strong feature of our work programme, in addition to the specific topics raised by the committee.

The planning and building unit is based in Tullamore. It consists of more than 180 administrative, professional and technical staff. Their roles are to support the planning and delivery of a modern and sustainable infrastructure for the school system, which involves an estate of close to 4,000 schools. We have done a lot of work over the past five years in the context of reviewing and streamlining our systems, processes and procedures in order that we are better positioned to deliver on the ambitions set out in the national development plan, which is the key guide for our work and direction of travel. The strategic initiatives and reforms we have put, and continue to put, in place are focused on enabling us to plan and deliver in a more strategic and co-ordinated manner.

We have a strong track record of delivery. During the period from 2018 to 2022, being the peak period, nearly 900 school building projects were completed. Through Project Ireland 2040, we are investing €4.4 billion over the period from 2021 to 2025, to add capacity and develop and upgrade school facilities throughout the country. We continue to have a strong pipeline of projects for delivery under the school building programme, involving circa 300 projects at construction stage and in excess of 1,000 at the various stages of appraisal and design. The current status of all projects is listed on the Department's website. This list is updated on a monthly basis as part of our overall communications.

On how the planning and building unit operates, there are two core aspects to our work, namely, planning and delivery. This means that for most schools there are two main contact points when interacting with the planning and building unit. The first of these is generally the school capital appraisal section. This is area led by Ms Cusack. Its role is to assess applications for additional accommodation. Assessing demographic requirements involves using a wide range of data sets and local information to determine what needs to be built where, when and how. The Department has strengthened its planning function significantly by means of the use of a wider range of data sets within its geographic information system, GIS. This better enables projections to be made on demographic requirements for individual school planning areas for the short, medium and longer term. The GIS, which was recently shortlisted for a Civil Service excellence and innovation award, enables all of this information to be displayed on maps and, importantly, includes data on zonings, planned residential developments and residential completions. There is also a strengthened focus on engagement with school patrons.

The second main contact point for schools is the delivery team in the planning and building unit. This team supports the delivery of an approved project from project brief stage through the various stages of architectural planning and, ultimately, to tender, construction and completion. These delivery teams include the additional accommodation scheme team, the major devolved projects team, the design and build team and the modular accommodation team. The bulk of projects are delivered on a devolved basis with professional support provided for schools through design teams. The larger and more complex programmes also involve project management companies to assist with co-ordination and delivery. This includes the area of special needs.

As already indicated, I have included an appendix to my opening statement that sets out the high-level position on each of the specific topics the committee wishes to discuss today. I hope that committee members finds this helpful and that it will assist in dealing with any issues of concern for them. I thank the Chair. We will answer any questions he or the members of the committee may wish to pose.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I thank Mr. Loftus for his presentation. I also thank him and his colleagues for coming before the committee. The appendix Mr. Loftus has provided is quite useful.

My first question relates to an issue I raised previously with the planning and building unit. It has to do with the provision of school halls. Approximately 10% of post-primary schools do not have a hall. I have come across instances of schools seeking the provision of halls. My best understanding of the situation, and perhaps the witnesses can clarify this for me, is that the Department is reluctant to provide funding for school halls or that such halls are not of the highest priority for the Department unless a significant redevelopment is happening. Funding is very often not on offer to schools that are trying to extend their campuses somewhat by adding halls.

What is offered is the kind of large multipurpose room that is not suitable for PE and so on. It is probably not as beneficial to the school in terms of hiring it out. The Healthy Ireland framework has particular targets for physical activity. There is also the objective to ensure that PE is offered as an exam subject in all schools. I have a reasonable understanding of the Department's position up to now. Has the Department given consideration to opening a new funding stream for school halls and revising the position as was previously the case? It is important to ensure that every child at post-primary level at least has access to a hall. The weather here is often wet and cold and they should have the opportunity to continue to participate in PE regardless of the weather.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The provision of PE halls is an important commitment under the programme for Government. It is also an important commitment under Project Ireland 2040. The national development plan, NDP, is the funding mechanism to deliver on those particular priorities. There is not a separate stream of funding in that regard. The NDP is our funding stream. As I said earlier in my statement, there is a €4.4 billion capital programme funding stream to cover the period from 2021 to 2025. Approximately 80% of post-primary schools have a PE hall and a further 10% have access to one nearby, which leaves a residual of 10%. Most of that residual relates to smaller post-primary school.

We are delivering PE halls as part of our capital programme. When we build a new post-primary school, we provide a PE hall. When we do a large-scale refurbishment and extension to a school, we provide a PE hall as part of that. The Deputy is correct that when we are doing other smaller-scale projects, the PE hall is not necessarily part of the brief for that. There are probably a few elements to that residual. We are looking to link in with our colleagues at the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. We are looking at the wider facilities in the community locally to see what opportunities there are for alignment and to achieve best value for State funding generally. Some of our staff are part of the steering groups there.

In looking forward in terms of PE hall provision and dealing with that retrofit and residual, we have the bigger picture to look at as well in the context of the deep energy retrofit programme and how that aligns. If we think of the overall school buildings currently in place in those schools that do not have a PE hall, the question is whether the long-term trajectory for that school is a deep energy retrofit of the existing building or whether it involves demolish and rebuild? That can then feed into the considerations of the best way forward to deal with the PE hall issue. There are certain complexities; it is not simple. Certainly, it is a commitment under the project for Government and is a commitment under Project Ireland 2040. I am also conscious that in dealing with current commencements, we need to manage priorities relating to special needs. We have many Ukrainian children in our schools currently. We have increasing demographics at post-primary level. We need to manage the collective priorities as best as possible.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

What I am hearing is that a school building project needs to pass a certain threshold and if a school might need a complete retrofit, the Department is not at the moment looking at a hall. I will give three examples. I will not name them because I do not have permission to do so. It will give a sense of the kinds of situations we are talking about. I am thinking of a city centre school with about 220 pupils where students need to get on a bus to take part in PE. There is another school relatively close by where pupils need to get on a bus. It is a 1970s Christian Brothers-type school building. I am sure Mr. Loftus is familiar with the type of building with big thick walls. It probably could do with a retrofit. It is a massive school now and has significantly expanded. It wants to get a hall but cannot. In the case of a new primary school build, a new build - albeit it is different at primary school - all that is being offered is that multipurpose room.

This is very disappointing for a school that has campaigned for the provision for a long time. The issue must be looked at again. We cannot let the perfect be the enemy of the good. It is not desirable in the context of the obesity crisis and everything else we are trying to face down that a school could go another ten years without a school hall.

The demographic bulge is moving into post-primary education. Approximately how many additional post-primary schools will be needed in the next ten years?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

When we are looking at demographics, we look at what is the capacity of the existing school system before we look at new schools. That is our first port of call. Looking at demographics overall, the bulge has been there already for the past few years and has worked its way through primary education. Focusing on first-year numbers, to give a sense of where the bulge is at, 2013 or thereabouts was the peak year for junior infant numbers at primary level. Working that through to post-primary level, we will be more or less at the peak in the next year or two in terms of enrolments. That will then work its way through the system. We are still on an upward curve overall and, as I said earlier, there are also more than 1,000 Ukrainian children in sixth class at primary level who will feed into the post-primary system. There is also the question of how all the new housing developments will impact on provision.

To answer the Deputy's question, it really depends on how those particular demographics land in a particular area. That determines the number of new schools. Our typical approach is to provide new post-primary schools at scale for 1,000 pupils or thereabouts. It takes quite a bit of demographic requirement to justify a new 1,000-pupil school.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Is it not possible to give an overall figure?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

In fairness, it depends on the local area and the particular pressures. With the strategic development zones and all of that, we have a pipeline. Back in 2018, we announced a cohort of new schools to be delivered, some of which have not yet been delivered in terms of being established. In essence, that is because the related housing that was intended to be in place in 2021 or 2022 has not yet happened. That cohort of schools will be coming through but it will happen over time, to align with the housing developments.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I thank Mr. Loftus.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the officials for coming before the committee. My first question is a general one about how we can get more Gaelcholáistí established. I raise this matter in reference to my constituency, Dublin Bay South, in which there are six Gaelscoileanna - all bunscoileanna - that are very popular and have good records and to which parents are very committed. However, there is no Gaelcholáiste in the constituency, which I am using as an example of the situation throughout the country. Whenever we speak to parents in order to discover their preference, it is necessarily the case, because there are many more non-Gaelscoileanna than Gaelscoileanna in the constituency, that a vote is not going to be in favour of an all-Irish Gaelcholáiste. The same will happen throughout the country. However, there is still significant interest in and demand for such provision. Can we ensure that the opportunity is given to parents to have their children educated in a Gaelcholáiste in circumstances where they may not have the absolute democratic power to achieve it by means of a vote and in the context of our obligation to ensure that the language is protected?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Supporting the 20-year strategy for the Irish language is an important priority for the Government. Within education, we must follow through on and support that as best as possible. The Deputy is in the south Dublin area, which is one of the most difficult areas for us in terms of getting sites and all of that. It is challenging there.

The Deputy asked how we support Gaelcholáistí and Irish provision generally.

There are many of the same issues with Gaelscoileanna at primary level. It is looking at where there is a pipeline of new schools but that will be limited. We look to see where there are a number of schools being provided and what is the possibility that at least one of them would be an Irish medium school. This speaks to the point raised that in a straight vote, they may not necessarily come out on top but overall they are popular and that is something we are aware of.

Regarding thresholds, we support Gaelcholáistí. The threshold for a standard post-primary school is about 1,000 pupils. It is lower for Gaelcholáistí, with 400 being the threshold we use to establish a school.

Yes, and we are also conscious of the climate change agenda and the most efficient way of doing business. We look at the existing footprint and space within the school and consider the opportunities for reconfiguration of existing space. We have frameworks in place to provide project management support to schools to do that. We have had very positive feedback from schools in this regard over the past couple of years. That would be our first port of call, looking at opportunities for provision of special classrooms in existing schools. It is only afterwards we would look at what would be coming down the tracks for the normal project pipeline and what we need to do as part of accelerated provision. For example, in 2022 we put a lot of work into accelerated delivery of school building projects and modular accommodation to support special classroom provision across schools.

That facilitated something in the order of 900 students getting a special school place very quickly.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

On the climate action agenda, what is being done when new schools are being designed and built to ensure that that school can avail of and use renewable energy?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I will ask my colleague, Mr Dolan, who is a technical manager and lead in the climate area, to deal with this question, please.

Mr. John Dolan

The building energy rating system came in in 2009 and we tested schools built in 2006 to our 2004 standards and they were A-rated. From 2009 onwards, we set the standard for schools as A-rated.

A school entering design today will have renewable heating and photovoltaic, PV, panels as part of that. We have approximately 15 other additional elements that have been introduced and are designed over the past number of years that will help reduce energy consumption in the school. We are aware that the most renewable type of energy is the energy that is not used in the first place. There has been a strong focus on “reduce” and currently 10% of primary energy in a school building is delivered through solar PV panels also.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay. I thank Mr Dolan very much and I also thank the Chairman as I see my time is up.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the witnesses for their presentation and for the appendices, which I believe are very useful, in that they go into detail around the specific questions the committee may have wanted to put.

I will pick up on a point already made by Deputy Jim O’Callaghan to ask one specific question. A point there talks about it being open to existing secondary schools to look at the establishment of an Irish-language medium unit within the existing school. How many schools to date have availed of that?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We will check that and come back to the Deputy with the figure. It is not a very significant number but is an important one and we will revert to the Deputy.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Are we talking less than ten, or between ten and 100?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

No, it would be more, and would be in the high double digits.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is a consideration that I am aware affects Deputy O’Callaghan's constituency and south Dublin in particular, which are not constituencies I should be talking about, but there we are.

I have a specific question for Mr. Dolan on the Government commitment to roll out solar rooftops on schools. This is a very welcome and visual commitment to climate action and the schools will tend to produce the most energy during the time when the children are not in school. It does not make it a bad idea, it still is a very good one, but it creates challenges in how we roll it out to schools and in how we manage that as a resource. We begin to worry then about issues like the feed-in tariffs. Has that been looked at in some detail by the Department? Where are we with that and when can we can be expect to see those solar panels being rolled out onto rooftops?

Mr. John Dolan

Our work on renewables has been progressed in line with our energy research programme, which we started in 1997. It has 53 different research strands and we have tested every renewable that can be considered viable for schools. We put our first PVs into schools around the year 2007. Again, we have been developing and monitoring the progress of those, along with thermal solar panels also.

The requirement with respect to the feed-in tariffs is a newly-introduced opportunity in the past year or so. There will be a benefit there for schools to avail of that period when they are shut down because, for approximately 50% of the year, there will be the opportunity to export electricity. As for the school renewables, even when the school is closed it will use some electricity with respect to its emergency services, security and everything else but there also will be the opportunity to export electricity through the feed-in tariffs. All of that is being taken into account.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am not sure I got a great deal of information there. Are we also considering putting batteries into schools and is that part of the planning?

Mr. John Dolan

No, that is not part of the planning at the moment. The Deputy asked when we expected the programme to roll out. It will be rolling out in the second half of this year and we are in discussions with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications on the scheme.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I will ask Ms Mannion to cover that question. Before I do, however, I refer to the Deputy's earlier question on units. There are 22 units at post-primary level. Generally, in terms of the reconfiguration of existing space, we have a national inventory of school capacity with good survey data coming back from schools. That gives us a good guide in terms of the schools that have the best opportunities for retrofitting and working through. We are conscious of the direction of travel and demographics generally at post-primary level. That will evolve over time. We will reach and are reaching peak, and that will evolve. Naturally, we will be looking at the opportunities that creates. We also have a strong pipeline of projects, which creates opportunities in the existing school system, and then modular is our back-up option. I will let Ms Mannion talk about the percentages.

Ms Martina Mannion

Obviously, a key factor in determining the level of provision required is to look at the prevalence of special educational needs. The Department had previously been working off the figures that were generally in use, including from the Department of Health, which in 2018 identified the prevalence rates, particularly of autism, in the Irish population. A review of the data sources indicated a 1.5% rate. Significant additional work has been done since.

In looking at our forward planning model, the Department has undertaken a very detailed analysis of what has happened in the last number of years to accurately understand. We are now working off a figure of 3.38% in terms of making provision across the system. In that context, in terms of the forward planning piece, we have had a very detailed analysis of our forecasts over the past two years to analyse the difference between the level of provision we had intended to provide and the actual level of provision we ultimately provided. We have undertaken a thorough analysis of the profile of pupils in special schools in special classes held by the National Council for Special Education, NCSE. We have undertaken a review of the data that is held on the Department's primary pupil and post-primary pupil databases. We looked at the number of children in special classes at primary level transitioning to post-primary level. We also looked at the number of children in primary transitioning to special schools.

We reviewed the numbers of children attending these classes compared with the overall student population at county level but more specifically, at school planning area level. Obviously it is at school planning area level that we need to make the extra provision. Then we looked at the emerging evidence on the level of complex needs among young children, particularly in relation to autism. Out of that detailed work, which has been ongoing over a number of months and which was undertaken by a team in the Department's special education section, the National Council for Special Education and the planning and building unit, we now have a much more detailed forecasting model for the level of provision that will be required over the next three years. That is very much aligning with the forward planning work in the building unit, which is also looking at demographics, students from Ukraine and other issues which have to be factored into accommodation.

The Deputy spoke about areas outside of autism but if one looks at special classes in school provision, 92% of all new special classes opened in the last three years have been for children with autism. That is clearly where the growth is in terms of the additional special education provision that has been identified as being needed. Furthermore, in the last two years, we looked at children who are in post-primary special classes and where they have come from. About one third have come from special classes at primary level. Another third have come from within the post-primary school itself. These are children who were already in post-primary schools who did not initially need a special class but as they got older, their needs changed and they then needed post-primary provision. The final third are children who were in mainstream primary schools. These are children who could have managed in a smaller primary setting but who struggled to adapt in a larger post-primary setting.

We have now set out a detailed model as to how we are going to meet this need. We are going to have to continue to deliver the same number of special classes at primary level but we are going to need to double the number of classes at post-primary level over the next three years. The big focus is on ensuring that we have enough provision at post-primary level. The work that my colleague, Mr. Loftus, spoke about in terms of the reconfiguration of existing buildings and new school buildings is going to be a key part of our work in ensuring that we have the physical accommodation available to support these classes.

From our perspective in special education, however, it is not just about the classrooms. We need to make sure that schools have early notification of where those classes are going to be required. We also need to have a good spread of these classes across the country and across towns. As Mr. Loftus said, we envisage that ultimately, every post-primary school in this country will have special education classes. We have spoken to the post-primary stakeholders and they are aware of that. We are now looking at what is needed for 2023, 2024 and 2025 and at ensuring a good spread across the country. The key piece is that we now know what is needed and we now have a plan, with the building unit and the NCSE, as to how to deliver it. The early notification to schools of where it is needed is critical because we want the schools to be able to recruit the staff and get training and support from the NCSE. We also want to make sure that all the grants that we provide for equipment are ready to go in order that children can go into these classes in September 2023.

Chairman

Thank you for that comprehensive response.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have more questions but I will wait until the next round.

Chairman

I will come back to you Deputy. Senator Dolan is next, to be followed by Deputy Nolan.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome Mr. Loftus and the team from the planning and building unit in the Department of Education. It is great to have them here. The figures are phenomenal. The opening statement points out that we have 4,000 schools and nearly 1 million children. The unit delivers accommodation, buildings and schools for children when they move from primary to post-primary schools. The unit bases a lot of its work on the details provided by the census of population. We are going to be getting a lot more detail from the census later but in essence we are looking at around 5 million people, 1 million of whom are children. Of course, there are additional children coming from Ukraine now. I ask the team to provide a breakdown of the numbers of children we currently have from Ukraine or other countries, fleeing desperate situations, at both primary and post-primary level. Is there a breakdown of those figures and are such children included in the Department's plans for future provision?

I am delighted to hear from Mr. Dolan, whose name is easy for me to remember, that there a focus on the climate agenda. Coming from the west, my focus would particularly be on older schools. I am also interested in the impact of housing and how the housing sector contributes to emissions and so on. The Western Development Commission talks about housing in the west as being the oldest, percentage-wise, in the country. We are going to have a big battle with that. Some of my questions for the Department might be around just transition. My area is Roscommon and east Galway, where some areas have been impacted by the changes with Bord na Móna, peat and so on. There is an awful lot more funding coming through Europe and through the just transition fund for particular regions in Ireland that have been poorly affected in terms of work, labour and so on. Would that have any impact on efforts to retrofit some of our ancient buildings, not the newer buildings? I know there are some amazing new school builds. Is there any impact of just transition on primary schools in terms of the focus on retrofitting? I am thinking in particular of the possibility of working with the Western Development Commission and some of those other groups.

I acknowledge that in excess of 900 schools have been built and that we are looking at funding of nearly €4.4 billion from 2021 to 2025. I am delighted to see the amount of funding. What I am not so delighted about, and they have been mentioned here, are the delays. The officials will be aware of an issue I have raised a number of times, coming from Ballinasloe, of a school that is now 27 years waiting. I know it is at stage 2B and I can see Mr. Loftus looking at me and indicating he knows the school. When it went through planning and statutory approval, I was on tenterhooks and was getting so excited. The challenge is that further information is now requested.

Mr. Loftus said he is expanding his team. He is looking at additional accommodation and I can only state that additional accommodation and modular units are what we will have to look at for so many of our schools. Some schools are in dire need. I refer to DEIS schools, which make up one in four of our schools.

There was mention of a geographic information system, GIS, which we are using now, with a wide range of data. I would like a comment around that as well. I welcome the shortlisting for a Civil Service innovation award. The GIS includes data on zonings, planned residential developments, and residential completions. Might it include information about flood zones and things like that? Where is the assistance for design teams for priority schools like this one in Ballinasloe? Mr. Loftus referred to project management teams for serious major capital infrastructure projects. What assistance has been given here? I have been working with the board of management. I know this crops up. When I speak with the Department, I am told it is not the Department's responsibility yet because it is still at stage 2B and it is with the design team. There is a principal trying to manage this as a project manager. Running a school after the past few years presents a lot of challenges. That is my specific query.

More generally, I would like to know what supports are going to be put in place. We can acknowledge there are challenges, for example in respect of areas in the west where we have many special areas of conservation, SACs, and it is a challenge for us in a lot of different areas. If we are looking to build a school and we are 27 years waiting, is this a priority? Does this deserve project management attention from the Department of Education?

I know there are school builds happening. They are on the Department's website and I very much welcome the updates the officials are able to give. It is very important. I also acknowledge the work the Department has done around special schools and the additional accommodation for them. It has been done in a rapid manner. The officials are working to deliver the additional accommodation units as quickly as possible.

On contractors and procurement, there is a challenge with Brexit. Is it still possible to use many of the groups that were doing procurement around additional accommodation prior to Brexit? If so, that is great, but if there are delays in projects being delivered due to health and safety, not meeting European Union guidelines or whatever, what needs to be done?

There was reference to a Gaelscoil earlier. I welcome that the Department is working on a Gaelscoil project in Roscommon town which is at preliminary design stage. That is great to see. It is about working with those groups. However, where there is a 27-year delay or similar serious delays, it is a real issue for me. What support is being offered?

Deputy Carol Nolan

I thank the Chair and thank the Department officials for their briefing. I am going to be brief and precise with my question. It relates to autism spectrum disorder, ASD, units. I understand Ms Mannion's section is heading that up and co-ordinating things but as a local elected representative in Laois-Offaly I am getting some concerns from schools that feel things are not happening quickly enough and ASD units are not on track for this September. There is a bit of panic. What way are things co-ordinated between the special educational needs organiser, SENO, the principal and the Department? Is there close co-ordination and ongoing collaboration? That is vital. I know of cases where parents who are very frustrated are working closely with a principal, and in some cases a SENO, but what extra resources will be put in there to ensure these units are on track and are delivered by September? I appreciate there are pressures and increased numbers in the system. In the autism units that have been opened the numbers have soared and I see that clearly. What reassurance can I give those principals and those parents that the Department has this in hand? In some cases I stress it may entail a second unit where one has already been delivered and now there is demand in the area for another. What is the plan? Are they being fast-tracked and, more important, will they be delivered in time?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank the Deputy for the question. I will let Ms Mannion come in but as a general point, and to bring it up to a strategic level rather than individual schools necessarily, there is a huge amount of co-ordination done across the planning and building unit, the special education section and the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, to ensure there is early identification of need and working through a pathway for delivery. As I said earlier, that pathway involves using either existing accommodation and reconfiguring that or projects as part of our normal programme that are at construction stage, of which there are currently 300, and some of them might be complete in time for September 2023. If neither of those is the route and there is still a need we have modular accommodation solutions in place. We have a modular accommodation framework that assists with accelerated delivery. That makes it more straightforward and easier to deliver on needs.

You can never give a 100% guarantee with building projects generally but when you look at the conditions and mechanisms we have put in place, a huge amount of positive work has been done to position all the stakeholders to deliver on needs as quickly as possible. If one looks at 2022, we were hugely successful at delivering a lot of additional capacity into the system and we look forward to building on that progress in 2023 and beyond. I ask Ms Mannion to add to that.

Ms Martina Mannion

I have a couple of things to start off. The Deputy previously raised concerns about SENO vacancies in her area. I reassure her the vacancy in that area has been filled and the SENO is on the ground working there at the minute. To give her some reassurance about our planning, we have opened 14 new classes for children at primary level in Laois in the past three years and in Offaly we have opened 21. At post-primary level, in the past three years we have opened eight special classes in Laois and eight in Offaly. We know what we need to provide at primary and post-primary levels in both of those areas.

On the physical capacity Mr. Loftus talked about, we have been working to try to ensure that if there is space within existing school buildings, that they are, in the first instance, best-placed to be able to immediately take the classes.

This makes sense because the accommodation is then ready. It is all the supports that come after that which are important. I refer to the teachers, training, school transport and all these grants and supports that schools need to have to allow classes to work effectively. This is where we are at now.

Regarding intensive engagement, representatives from special education, the building unit and the NCSE meet weekly. We go through the level of need known to the NCSE county by county and school planning area by school planning area and the detailed planning I referred to that has been ongoing at a strategic level, broken down into school planning areas over the next three years. We then wish to ensure that where a need is known to the NCSE we are not just meeting it but also meeting what we see as the expanded need, those children who will be coming through from primary school and into post-primary schools and who will need placements. Equally, children in primary school may sometimes need special school placements as they get older. We are, therefore, trying to look at this issue across the continuum of support, including the mainstream, special classes and special schools.

All this together, and trying to get early notification out to schools, is what we hope will allow us to achieve earlier reassurance for parents that the classes they need will be available. A key part of this endeavour is having the SENOs on the ground. Another important point to mention is the additional funding secured for the NCSE in budget 2023. I refer to this because we are conscious this is a front-line service and that the number of SENOs on the ground were just not able to get to all the schools and parents. There has, therefore, been a significant investment in the NCSE. This will double its staff, including more SENOs and ancillary supports. We hope this will make a practical difference on the ground for parents and schools in the context of supporting children with special educational needs.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I thank Ms Mannion.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the witnesses for their presentations earlier. I listened in to them. I commend the good work being done all across County Mayo. We do have a problem, though, where there is not a growing population. There are, for example, 60 pupils in Midfield national school in Swinford. This school has been going since 1964 and there is poor infrastructure there. It has no hall of any shape or size whatsoever and this has been sought for several years. What strategy is there for the current condition of school facilities such as in this national school? These 60 pupils are as entitled to a hall and a play area as pupils anywhere else. What is it possible to do there and how can we progress this?

In another instance, I refer to where there is no suitable playground outside to facilitate children with disabilities, and especially children in wheelchairs. In Bangor Erris national school, for example, it is not possible to bring somebody out in a wheelchair and there is a wheelchair user there. This means nobody can use the yard, because we cannot have a situation where a child in a wheelchair is looking over a wall at other children playing. In this instance, we are not talking about large sums of money, but we are talking about an amount larger than that provided for in the works programme to allow the necessary work to be undertaken. What funding streams are available in this regard?

Turning to basic things, one is a shelter that children can go into when outside. From my school days, I remember the importance of the shelter, especially in the west of Ireland, to allow pupils to go in from the rain so they are not soaked wet going back into their classrooms. This is the situation in Saula national school in Achill, where there is no shelter. Applications have been made for such a shelter for many years and much fundraising undertaken, but the cost to get this done is still out of reach.

How do we get the balance right between what needs to be done concerning climate change and what needs to be done in terms of basic facilities for children, if all children are to be treated equally? When will the summer work scheme be open for applications for 2023? How are we going to get the balance right between climate projects and the traditional maintenance work and repairs that need to be done?

Given construction inflation and with all of these in the pipeline, how is the Department dealing with the fact that schools will have end submissions and costings from builders? Is the Department allowing extra funding for that construction inflation? Will the Department also allow for construction inflation in the summer works scheme and what people can get for it?

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I welcome everyone attending the committee. I will pick up where Deputy Conway-Walsh left off, as Mr. Loftus half-answered the question I was going to ask about inflationary costs. The other side of the question concerns projects specifically. Does the Department have an assessment or analysis of how many projects have been delayed because of inflationary pressures? Have projects not started in some instances? Will the witnesses elaborate on that? I am conscious of asking questions that have not already been asked.

An issue has come to light recently regarding AstroTurf pitches across the country, which ties in with what Deputy Ó Laoghaire raised concerning sports halls. An EU directive is coming down that is potentially going to, perhaps "ban" is not the right word, but will phase out the use of rubber pellets on AstroTurf pitches. Does the Department have any idea how many schools are currently at planning stage for those or in the process of building or tendering them? What likely impacts will they face? What is the latest information the Department has regarding that issue? It is of concern to a number of sports clubs I interact with.

My other question concerns the wider east Cork area, which I have raised with the Minister and officials in the past. No matter which stakeholder I speak to, everywhere east of Cork city, from Glanmire east to YoughaI, they say capacity is a massive issue every year. I have served on five boards of management and while many of the issues around capacity and enrolment work out through the process and many people ultimately find places, the problem seems to be particularly acute in east Cork. If you talk to parents, principals, education and training members or officials, or special educational needs organisers, they all say there is a need for at least one, if not more, secondary schools in the wider east Cork area. We are repeatedly told that the model the Department operates and the geographic information system the Department operates demonstrates that, by 2026 or 2027, I think, demand on those places is set to fall. Will the Department representatives comment on that? Approximately 10,000 houses are planned for Midleton, Carrigtwohill and Cobh and the development of a new village in Water-Rock, for example. Have those been factored in? I am from an area called Little Island, which has a population of 1,200.

In the last county development plan, the council included a provision for a school in an area with declining school numbers. It is a tiny primary school with 170 pupils. I am not sure whether the provision was on foot of a Department request or whether the county council made the decision itself. I would appreciate it if the delegates explained the rationale for how something like that might happen?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank the Deputy. I will deal with the questions about project delays and the Astroturf pitches and my colleague, Ms Cusack, will respond on east Cork and such matters.

With regard to project delays, in the past year or so, since the outbreak of the war in Ukraine, we have been conscious that we are generally in a war-type environment. It has been a difficult enough construction environment in which to work. There are issues concerning construction inflation and issues can arise regarding the supply chain generally, which can have impacts at individual project level.

On where we are at generally regarding delivery, we currently have around 300 projects at construction. This is a very good and solid number. In 2022, we were targeting the delivery of 150 to 200 projects. The number is being finalised but we delivered 180-plus projects. We have had strong delivery but that is not to say there were not impacts on individual projects. Even in the Deputy's area, east Cork, the Carrigtwohill campus was long-delayed in its own way, but it is certainly one of our flagship projects owing to the sea change it will bring to the school and education infrastructure in the town. It is very important.

From the perspective of a tenderer on delivering projects, it is difficult to price projects and get them through. That can cause delays. One can have a scenario in which the first tenderer does not hold its price, meaning we have to go down to the second or third, or refresh tenders or tender again. All these factors have their own impacts but, notwithstanding that and conscious of a strong pipeline, we have been able to keep a strong flow of projects at construction and bring them to completion.

On the issue of Astroturf pitches generally, it will be more of an issue for sports clubs than the Department. As a general rule, the Department has not been overly generous over the years regarding the provision of Astroturf pitches. Provision was sporadic, for various reasons, and there were not many provided generally. The EU directive, of which I am not unaware, will have an impact but there will obviously be some sort of fade-out arrangement in that regard.

I will let Ms Cusack refer to east Cork but will first make a general comment. We are always conscious of alignment of housing provision and school provision and trying to achieve this as best as we possibly can. Regarding housing roll-out, the Deputy mentioned a number of homes in the order of 10,000. The route for managing them from a school-provision perspective involves determining the capacity in the school system as the houses are rolled out over time and the capacity that must be added to cater for additional needs. As a rule of thumb, 10,000 houses equates to a requirement for about 5,000 school places, with about 60% at primary level and 40% at post-primary level. It is a matter of working it through in terms of existing capacity and making additional capacity available. The rule of thumb can vary a little, depending on whether the 10,000 are more in the housing space than the apartment space, having regard to the types of apartments, such as one-bedroom apartments. That gives a guide for what the impact of homes might be.

I will now let Ms Cusack refer to east Cork in general.

Ms Áine Cusack

We may talk in numbers and statistics but we are acutely aware, when we talk about enrolment pressures, that behind each number are a child and a family, and it is a big and important step for them. In our engagement with stakeholders, we are very much focused on ensuring the child is at the centre. As the Deputy rightly said, duplications are drawn into an area from outside the locality. Even something such as a single-sex school can change a dynamic, generating long waiting lists and pressure for places.

The Deputy will be aware we have added significant capacity in east Cork over recent years and continue to do so. There is the Carrigtwohill post-primary school, which Mr. Loftus referenced, and we have delivered an extension to St. Colman's Community College. We also have projects in Cobh and others in Midleton and Carrigtwohill, all of which are proceeding. Based on our projections, we anticipate there could be between 1,000 and 1,500 surplus places in east Cork, although that is notwithstanding Ukrainian arrivals, which are putting pressure on, in particular, Youghal, where a significant number have been accommodated in Pobalscoil na Tríonóide. We anticipate that over the long term, there will be ample post-primary capacity. To be clear, those projections take into account Project Ireland 2040 population growth and housing targets will also have been factored in. We are conscious of the likes of the Water-Rock proposed development in Midleton and, as the Deputy will probably be aware, there is provision for both primary and post-primary sites there. That level of residential development, and of course the train station, may generate additional demand beyond what we have projected, so we are very much keeping pressures and developments such as that under review. Our GIS, and the information we have in that regard about residential development and completions, are very helpful to us anticipating that need. Moreover, our engagement with patrons in the area will be very much focused on garnering their local knowledge about pressures and so on. Nationally, in general, first-year pressures are anticipated to begin to ease, and we anticipate a reduction of about 7,500 of the first-year intake over the next six years or so, from a base of about 68,000. Notwithstanding that, we appreciate there will be local variances, and we will keep the situation in east Cork, like everywhere else, under review and monitor pressures as they emerge.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I might add that, notwithstanding the projects that might be delivered there, where we have short-term needs we might add capacity in the short term to supplement what we are doing. When we assess what is needed, there may be a short-term need to address as well as the longer term one. Ultimately, additional space will never go to waste in a post-primary school. We are all conscious of senior cycle reform and the space requirement that will flow from that. Furthermore, as we look ahead to the climate agenda, it will be important to have some capacity to move students around a school, which might help avoid or minimise the need for decanting, as might be required as part of the climate agenda. That investment now is very important and useful.

I call Deputy O'Connor and then I will come back in again. I will allow members to come back in again as we are here for another while.

Deputy James O'Connor

I thank the Chairman for allowing me to speak today and I thank Deputy O'Sullivan for informing me.

On the east Cork area, I represent the area and I know that the officials are familiar with the growing amount of housing that is going up in the region. At today's meeting there has been reference, through questions asked by Deputy O'Sullivan, on the potential medium-term decline in the requirement for school places in Ireland. However, there are areas of the country that will experience significant growth due to an increasing number of strategic housing development, SHDs. One of those areas is in my constituency and it borders on that of Deputy O'Sullivan. The school placement issue there is chronic. We know that thousands of new houses will be constructed and I am concerned that as of today, every single school in my constituency is at capacity plus has already taken on additional capacity through forms of additional accommodation in prefabricated units. There are several schools and I do not want to mention them individually. The schools in Midleton cannot take any more as they are full. In Carrigtwohill, there is a school entirely in a temporary location but it is at capacity. The new building is almost complete. I hope that the project will be completed in the next 12 to 18 months and upon its completion the school is full. So even the newly-created school has no more additional capacity. We expect an additional construction of somewhere in the region of 2,000 and 3,000 houses over the course of the next five or six years but the Department has no plan whatsoever for an additional school in the area despite the fact that we know, and the Department knows, and I am sure that the Department previously knew, that there would be population growth in the region.

I hate to be blunt, but what are the witnesses going to do about it? I have tried everything I can here in the past three years, and I am a bit frustrated at the level of progress on the part of the Department.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank the Deputy for his question. I will ask Ms Cusack to address it specifically. When we appeared previously at the committee we offered to provide a presentation on east Cork and so on, just in terms of our GIS system and things like that. If the Deputy wishes to take up that offer again, we will be happy to facilitate that. I will let Ms Cusack go through the detail in respect of east Cork.

Ms Áine Cusack

I thank the Deputy. It is an area with which we are very familiar. We have a significant amount of positive and productive engagement with the school authorities and the patrons in east Cork annually. We are aware of the enrolment pressures there. We are conscious of both the short-term dynamics and the medium to longer term dynamics, as the Deputy mentioned. In the short term, as we stated in reply to Deputy O'Sullivan, duplication of applications is a big driver of waiting lists and a draw from external areas. That generally works through, however. We work closely with the school patrons and are in discussions with the principals and patrons in east Cork to make sure there are sufficient places for 2023 and 2024. We have recently agreed with St. Colman's College that it will take extra pupils, for example, and Midleton CBS took an extra couple of classes last year as well. We work closely to make sure the capacity is there in the short term.

We have a string of projects either recently delivered or in train that is delivering significant additional capacity. As I mentioned in reply to Deputy O'Sullivan, we are conscious that those projects should, in theory and relative to our projections, give us ample provision at post-primary level but that is a contingency that we hope will allow to absorb the potential increase in housing, depending on the timing of that delivery. As mentioned earlier in the context of the timing of the lead-in and the child yield, it is important to consider when that housing will convert to primary school children and post-primary school children. We have that contingency there for the level of housing that is anticipated. We know that Water Rock, for example, is targeted for significant residential growth. I refer to the train station to be located there and the opportunities for green travel that may bring. At the moment, we are keeping it under active review. We believe the projects we already have in train will meet that medium-term need but we are monitoring the housing and population targets and the county development plan. Through our GIS, we are monitoring applications for residential development, commencement notices, construction commencements and construction completions to closely monitor the development, the impact in terms of child yield and the ultimate impact on school places in order to ensure we have that provision in the area.

Deputy James O'Connor

I thank Ms Cusack. I apologise to Mr. Loftus, but I have limited time.

Again, I came into this job as head of the planning and building unit back in October 2017, and that was just before the new national development plan, NDP, came through. In the period 2018 to 2022, we delivered in excess of 900 school building projects, and that is a huge level of investment. That involved an investment of more than €3.5 billion, which has had a real and positive impact in terms of education provision and education infrastructure. There is a huge amount to be done. We have a strong pipeline of delivery and much work to do, but a lot has been done, including in the area of special needs as well.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I have a few more questions. Maybe Ms Mannion will be able to come in on some of the other stuff because the clock really works against us in this room. I have a few questions to get through and then I will hand back to the witnesses. I will finish some of my other questions.

It also struck me that the new builds are fantastic. They provide for all learning, curricular, staffing and student needs. However, where an extension or new room is added on to an existing building, while it is fabulous work and always appreciated in the community, as a teacher I think there are certain shortcomings in how a building extension is viewed. The building unit too often ignores the car parking needs outside the wall of the school and the need for a halla, a multipurpose room or a sports room. The new build gets it but the extension does not always get it. It is very difficult. I was a sixth class teacher where there were big strapping lads, tall girls and athletic 12-year-olds running amok during a PE class and I was trying to contain them, a class of 35 kids, in a room of similar size to this committee room. Our hall in Parteen National School was somewhat similar to this size and we would be trying to play a game of basketball by keeping half of them sitting on a bench and the other half on their feet. It was really difficult. I am aware there is a long-term plan for addressing physical education facilities but this needs to be stitched in where possible. Where work is happening on site, car parking, school drop-off zones - a bane of every school - and physical education facilities need to be looked at. During the boom years of development in the 2000s, plots of land were zoned throughout the country and nobody had the foresight to speak to the school community. Huge tracts of land were zoned, houses sprung up and schools were playing catch-up by putting prefabs on school campuses. What level of planning, especially forward planning, in terms of physical education, parking bays and school drop-off areas does Mr. Loftus have to meet future needs?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank the Deputy. He paints a picture there which is quite graphic. We do a huge amount of engagement with local authorities on county development plans and local area plans in terms of the school provision requirements. We are a statutory consultee on that and we interact and engage to a great degree. We find our GIS is very helpful in terms of facilitating and enabling that engagement.

On the specific issues of car parking, halls and things like that, much of that relates more to existing school sites than to new school sites, and working that through. We find much of the requirements for car parking and drop-off areas flow from planning conditions that might relate to the delivery of projects in terms of what is appropriate and what is possible. One also has to be conscious of the longer term direction of travel generally about the climate agenda and how car parking and all of that gets managed in that space as well.

There was earlier discussion around halls and we are conscious of the need.

It is an important part of Government commitments and Project Ireland 2040. It is something that will be reflected, as best as possible, in the context of the wider roll-out of the national development plan modernisation agenda generally. Retrofitting in the context of climate will be part of that.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I have a final question. Shannon, County Clare, is Ireland's newest town. It was built in the 1960s and is quite close to the airport and industrial zone. The population has grown exponentially over the years. It is now a huge town.

The Department of Education has put enrolment caps in place, in particular in respect of St. Caimin's Community School. I do not think the Department fully recognises the needs of the town and hinterland that surrounds it. This policy is stifling school growth, enrolments and building, all of which are interlinked. I know the witnesses will say school building is their realm, but of all of these matters are interlinked. When we cap enrolment, we distort everything else across the school network.

On top of all the existing problems, I have been on the airwaves in recent days to speak about the 150 refugees who are due to come to the town. They will be very welcome, but dialogue with the school community needs to happen. Nobody has spoken to the five school principals in the area. I have asked parliamentary questions about this to try to get some information. I have been told by the Minister that the matters are commercially sensitive, yet RTÉ can be briefed on this.

I serve on the Government backbenches and cannot find the accurate information. The school community does not know what is happening. There needs to be some engagement. The Department probably needs to be the broker in the middle by saying there is solid Government information and a plan for it, as it did so well for the past 12 months. Let us not be blind or put blinkers over people's eyes and tell them to deal with something when it is on their doorstep. We need to engage, plan and deal with stakeholders.

This is not a criticism of the witnesses but rather of the lack of information. When people do not engage, we end up with far-right activism and all sorts of wrong information filling the void. I want the witnesses to be the middle broker for that. They might comment on the cap on enrolments in Shannon town, which is a blind approach to a large town with a massive hinterland. The Department has not fully grasped its needs for additional accommodation and enrolments.

The Department currently has a view that if one school is full, others will have to be filled. That does not work. We have to take cognisance of where people live, as well as their preferences and family links to schools. I hope the witnesses might encapsulate those points in the final remarks.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

If Ms Cusack has any observations in on the enrolment cap on Shannon, I will let her comment. I am conscious of time.

On refugee numbers, as a Department we are proud of the fact that we have put in sustainable, inclusive and integrated school place solutions for all of the Ukrainian children who have come into the school system over the past year, as well as all of the other children who have come through the international protection system. We have found that the regional educations and language teams, REALTs, we set up, supported by ETBs, have been a very good conduit for local engagement with schools and for working through accommodation solutions around that. We have found that very helpful and it is something that we will build on for the future.

Ms Áine Cusack

On Shannon, in broad terms if provision and school places are needed in an area, we will make sure to make that provision. We are monitoring the position. Yesterday, I spoke to one of our key stakeholders in the Shannon region, and discussed Shannon town in particular. Now is a key time in terms of admissions for this coming September, in terms of how the admissions progress is tracking through. We are engaging closely with stakeholders to monitor and see how that pans out. We will then examine what might be needed.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I provided a graphic image earlier, and will provide a final graphic image to conclude. When things are planned properly, Ukrainian refugees are welcome in our country. Refugees from anywhere are welcome in our country but we need to plan, engage and co-ordinate with stakeholders. Where that has been done successfully, we have proper classrooms and planning. When that did not happen successfully, which is not the fault of the Minister or Department, or communication was lacking, children were taught in a cloakroom.

If people want to keep others in the dark because they want to plan things without needing to talk to those in government, Departments or stakeholders and instead take a blinkered approach, we end up with kids being taught in cloakrooms. When we plan effectively, school principals and communities are on board and there are proper classrooms where children's needs are met. I say that as a teacher.

There has to be dialogue. We cannot ignore stakeholders. I thank the Department for what it is doing to properly co-ordinate this through its regional education and language teams and through the Minister. Communication is key at all times.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I agree very much with the points made by the Deputies from the east Cork area and the pressures that exist there. I do not require a response on my next point, which is on patronage. It is something we will really have to consider. It is very clear that the process for identifying new patrons creates difficulties for Irish medium schools. If we rely on new schools to do so we will not deliver the diversified schools estate that we need, particularly in terms of Irish medium education to which people have an entitlement. We must ensure every child in the country has the opportunity to access Irish medium education. It is to some extent the case at primary level but it is certainly not the case at post-primary level. We also have the issue of religious ethos and multidenominational access. We will have to consider how we do this because as things stand the divestment process, which does not even address the language issue, will not deliver the type of change that we need.

I have raised the issue of school planning areas and a peculiar issue can sometimes arise when a school is at the boundary of a planning area. Some local children can lose out when such a school is oversubscribed. This is a problem that can be anticipated in some instances. Obviously it is not a problem where a school is not oversubscribed. Where we have a school at the edge of a school planning area some parts of the local area can conceivably miss out.

We speak about pressure on school places. This is not specifically the responsibility of the Department but it is about co-ordination between Departments. The pressure on early years places and childcare places, as the Department knows, is absolutely savage. There is huge benefit and logic to co-locating early years services and childcare services. In some instances this develops organically over the course of time. Is it something the Department tries to factor in? We have spoken about sites that have challenges but does the Department try to factor in access to early years education? Does it speak to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth about it?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank Deputy Ó Laoghaire. I will ask Ms Cusack to comment on school planning areas. As a general point when we look at provision requirements using the GIS we look at towns and areas that span more than one school planning area. With regard to early years services and childcare, there is a special education aspect to it with regard to ASD. I will ask Ms Mannion to comment on this. As a general point, our new Secretary General Ms Bernie McNally came from the Department with responsibility for children. She is very conscious of this as an issue. It is something we have discussed, along with the opportunities for greater alignment. There is already quite significant co-location in primary schools. There are several hundred early years services and creches in the school system. When we look at the direction of travel of demographics generally at primary level, they are projected to reduce by approximately 100,000 nationally over the course of the next decade. This can create additional opportunities for alignment and we can see where it goes.

Ms Martina Mannion

With regard to strategic engagement at early years level, we want to prioritise space in our schools for early intervention classes if they are needed. They take children from the age of two and a half. We have 151 early intervention classes for children with autism throughout the country, 20 of which opened in the past two years. They are in every county in Ireland. We see very important alignment through having early intervention classes as they are needed in mainstream schools.

Where we have capacity and where there is a need for those early intervention classes, we try to link them to our schools so that they provide those opportunities. That is an important step in ensuring we have that link between early years outside of the non-special educational needs that are also supported on local campuses.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Just to add to the comments the Deputy makes about patronage, I will not go through all of that again as I am conscious of time but I will make a general comment. One of the schools, a Gaelscoil called Scoil Chaitlín Maude in Tallaght, did reconfigure and an interesting aspect of this which may have wider learnings is that it reconfigured from the Catholic church to An Foras Pátrúnachta on the basis that children attending the school would have the option of Catholic programme provision if that is what they so wanted. In a sense, there was a scenario there where the children going to that school, commencing from the junior infants, had the option of either enrolling from a multidenominational or a Catholic provision perspective. It is nearly the reverse of the scenario generally. When you look across at the Catholic schools generally, the default is that pupils go to the local school and have to put their hand up if they want to opt out. The model in this particular school, which is an interesting perspective, is looking at more an opt-in type of arrangement and not making the automatic assumption. It is an interesting comment and it relates to a Gaelscoil as well.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I have a number of short questions to follow up from earlier.

Regarding the special school in Glanmire, there was a site that the Department either acquired or is still in the process of acquiring from Cork City Council. Can Mr. Loftus provide an update on that? I talk to many special education needs organisers, SENOs, and stakeholders on the group who are predicting we are heading for another shortage in terms of capacity for special school places in Cork. We do not want to be reminded of the difficulties we had two years ago. Ultimately they were resolved with the opening of the new school in Carrigaline but that was a very difficult period. Can Mr. Loftus give an update regarding that site? Second, and this goes back to the Chair's earlier point on the site in Wexford, can Mr. Loftus talk me through step-by-step the interaction between the Department and the council in relation to how the development plan gets impacted? Does the council contact the Department as part of the development plan process and it responds? I am assuming this is probably the way or is the Department actively in there every year or every second year? Is the six-year turnover for the development plan sufficient to do the kind of forward planning in which it engages?

The last question relates to projects that are permitted. Sometimes projects go off to tender but for those that are permitted and might not have been tendered for, is there any oversight in the Department as to successfully seeing those projects through? I have come across a couple of examples. I will not name the school but I know of one school that was permitted an autism spectrum disorder, ASD, class in 2017 which is still not built in 2023. It is still nowhere near being built. There is actually a planning constraint on one particular school. Is there follow-through or oversight of those or, I suppose, is pressure put on boards of management to deliver the projects that were permitted?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank the Deputy for his questions. Covering the particular issues raised, the site in Glanmire is a 7.6 acre site and we have agreement in principle with the local authority to acquire it. As far as I understand the current position on that, the legalities are being worked through and we are awaiting the contract documents from the council. That site helps to future-proof Cork in the context of special school provision. I am conscious that over the last year or two we have done a lot of work in the Cork area in special schools in adding and strengthening capacity. We opened a new school there last year as well.

In terms of the site acquisition process generally, without getting into the full detail of it, we are very much actively involved in engaging with the local authorities in relation to the county development plans.

Those are the county and local area development plans and the different stages within that process. We had a very good, positive and constructive relationship with local authorities in that regard and in working that through. We assess and determine what we see as the needs going forward and then make judgments on reserving sites as part of that process.

On occasion, there can be tension with developers who may feel they do not need their site reserved. We engage with the local authority on that to make sure the interests of school and education provision going forward are clear. In Cork, we had a site in the Cork docklands where it was envisaged that the reserved schools site would be reduced. We saw that as impacting on our development plans. While no site is perfect and we have to manage challenges, we had to put our foot down very clearly in objecting to the envisaged reduction. That objection ultimately transacted, worked through and ultimately led, through our engagement with the Office of the Planning Regulator, OPR, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and ministerial direction from the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, to making sure the school provision requirements of the site were appropriate and reflective.

The Deputy mentioned the six-year period. Under the planning and development reform legislation that has been working its way through the Oireachtas, the direction of travel is to move from six years to ten years; maybe with a review period after five years. We see that as very positive and helpful. We are engaging with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage on opportunities to strengthen our engagement generally and school provision requirements.

With regard to the projects permitted, I do not have details of every project, given we have 300 projects in construction and 1,000 projects in the pipeline. Projects are devolved for delivery and we engage closely with the schools on delivery and working through solutions. As part of our strengthening of our delivery mechanisms, we put project management supports in place within the education and training boards, ETBs, to help with delivery. We also put building officer supports in place with other delivery partners, all with the purpose of getting projects delivered as quickly as possible. We are especially conscious of projects in the area of special educational needs. We have used project management supports, more recently in our modular accommodation framework, as a mechanism for delivery. If a project that was in the frame for 2017 was happening today, it might have been done through a different tack, with regard to the particular forms that we have put in place over the past number of years.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I ask for a clarification on that. If a school is permitted an autism spectrum disorder, ASD, class, everybody in the community breathes a sigh relief when they finally are to get their ASD class. All of a sudden, it might be said locally that the class will take two, three or four years. Is somebody from the Department monitoring that? Is someone beating down the door of that school's board of management to say the Department wants the school completed by "X" date and that is it?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Absolutely, but if Mr. Loftus went to a school in the west, he would know that opening windows is not always an option.

Chairman

Yes, I was going to say that we had parents giving out to us because the schools were cold.

I have a couple of questions for the witnesses before we wrap up. I know Mr. Loftus and the building unit are aware there are significant pressure points in the secondary school sector in Wexford town. The construction of a new secondary school in Wexford is required urgently. Students are travelling from Rosslare in the very deep south of the county to Enniscorthy for school. They are not travelling to the meánscoil in Enniscorthy but to St. Mary's CBS or to Coláiste Bríde or to New Ross, which is more than an hour away. No student should have to travel such distances when there is a large town with two boys' and two girls' primary schools and a vocational school. I cannot impress enough upon our guests the urgency of providing another post-primary school in Wexford town. The primary situation is difficult as well but the post-primary school is urgently needed. I ask the building unit to work with Wexford County Council to find an alternative site or whatever is required. People just want to see bricks and mortar. Fantastic work has been done in Wexford town on the CBS but, unfortunately, when the additional classrooms were built, the CBS could only take in one additional pupil. It is a fine school and a lot of money was spent but there are not enough places.

On the summer works scheme, I have spoken to my colleagues as well as to teachers and others in schools. A better title is needed for that scheme. It should not be called the summer works scheme because it is a scheme that is needed all year round. Has the Department any plans to rename the summer works scheme and to operate it all year round?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I note the point the Chair made about Wexford town. Bringing Selskar College up to a 1,000-pupil modern facility and all that is an important priority for the Department to improve provision in the area. Obviously, in the interim, if there any short-term issues, our team and Ms Cusack's team will work through solutions and engage with stakeholders around that.

Okay. I refer to an issue that goes back a couple years and still exists. One of the officials in the building section of the Department was going back between education and training boards, ETBs, and the schools themselves. This is kind of a doubling up and duplication. Take, for example, the summer works scheme and the emergency works scheme, where the Department goes directly back to the school and the ETB itself might have applied for the grant.

In that instance would it not be smoother, and involve less duplication, if all of the correspondence and work would be done between the building unit and the ETB itself instead of going back to the individual schools? A school would contact me to tell me that the project was not what had been applied for so then I would have to approach the ETB to see exactly what was applied for and I hope that Mr. Loftus understands what I am saying. Can anything be done to reduce duplication? Can something be done to smooth the process and ensure there is direct contact? Would direct contact create an issue with the IT system or some other unit?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

In general, and as part of the range of reforms we have introduced in the planning and building unit over the last number of years, we have an increasing and stronger emphasis on engagement with patrons rather than individual schools and then letting it transact out between the patron and the individual school. The ETBs will be the patron. They are the school authority. They will be the client on the projects. As a general rule, I would see no reason our engagement would not be primarily focused towards the ETB rather than the multiple schools under the ambit of that ETB. I would see that as being more efficient and that is a message I can convey to my staff as well.

Chairman

Yes, it would be beneficial if everybody knows the story.

I complimented the Department of Education. During my time in government, we got St. Patrick's special school in Enniscorthy and it is a fabulous facility that cost almost €12 million. Last year, the Minister for Education visited St. Patrick's special school and because the project was not finished it was officially opened at a later date. The school must now rent property like it had to do two years ago because, as its principal said to me, when one builds it they will come. Unfortunately, we have an increasing number of people with disabilities so families and parents want to send their sons and daughters to the very best which is the newly built St. Patrick's special school. Without doubt it is a role model for any special school in Europe. The design team in the Department of Education did a fantastic job as did the developer, the builder and everyone involved. The Department planned with the size of the school in mind but, unfortunately, the school is now looking for additional accommodation. I suggest that the Department when designing considers how many pupils will attend the school in the future.

St. Aidan's primary school in Enniscorthy is the biggest primary school outside of Dublin and now seeks an extension. I have spoken to Mr. Frank Murphy, the school principal, and learned that the school will be caught for space, building up is not an option and building out would reduce the amount of play areas. I will pursue this project with the building section when the school decides what it wants to do. Does the Department plan for the future when designing new schools? When designing a school project, especially a special school, and adding to an existing school are population projections considered by the Department?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank the Chair. St. Patrick's special school is hugely important and is a flagship special school project. We are very proud of it, the work of the design team and the work of the architects in the planning building unit in Tullamore who helped to shape and deliver the project.

On the dynamics and parameters around special schools and the drivers of demand, the landscape has changed a bit since the brief was originally compiled for the project.

As part of improving communications generally, last October, we held our first educational buildings Ireland conference. It showcased much of the good work being done in planning and delivery. Our colleagues in the North and the UK have the experience whereby they have built special schools and found that the additional drivers and the changed landscape are adding to capacity. As we strengthen special classes provision generally at primary and especially at post-primary level, it will help manage some of the pressures. We are also doing considerable work in adding capacity to special school provision. In hindsight, we could have added more to that project, but that is more reflective of the changed landscape than of where we are at. Does Ms Mannion wish to add anything on that?

I know it is very dangerous to quote from a parliamentary question. As a former Minister of State, I had to be very careful about what was put into a parliamentary question because it could be relayed in a number of years' time. According to a reply to a parliamentary question from 2021, about PE halls for post-primary schools, the Department's main focus of resources over the past decade was the provision of additional capacity to cater for increasing demographics. That is understandable. The went on to state that the second half of the national development plan, from 2023 onwards, will see an increasing focus on the upgrade and refurbishment of the existing school stock and that this will include a PE hall build and modernisation programme to ensure that students in all schools have appropriate facilities to support PE provision and supports. I will not ask a question, but I will ask you to comment on the parliamentary question reply from 2021.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

That reply reflected the position then.

As I said earlier, that would be our ambition in regard to PE halls. Part of the challenge we have to manage when we are looking at overall delivery and project delivery is the construction inflation environment we are in at this time. There are challenges in the scale of delivery needed in the area of special needs and also provision generally for Ukrainians. These are all challenges to manage and priorities to work through.

Chairman

I understand that. However, more than ever before, PE, apart from being part of the curriculum, is very much part and parcel of the daily life of schools. It is a problem if a large primary school or very large secondary school does not have the provision to enable students to take part in PE inside when there is bad weather. This is a policy matter and it requires the Government to make a change to ensure the provision of PE halls and playing pitches is a real priority, particularly for new school builds. There is no use in just talking about the health, well-being and fitness of students. We must not only talk the talk but also walk the walk by ensuring the provision is delivered.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We are delivering PE halls as part of new builds and large-scale refurbishments and extensions. That is being worked through in a lot of instances.

Deputy Thomas Gould

That is not the case in-----

Chairman

The Deputy will have a chance presently to ask a question. He is not a member of the committee but I will give him an opportunity to ask his question.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

What I said is accurate. In terms of playing pitches and things like that, the constraints of any site affect what opportunities there are to work through playing facilities generally. Regarding PE halls, overall at post-primary level, nine out of ten schools have a PE hall or access to one nearby. The issue then is looking at the residual 10% and finding a strategy and approach for working that through. Part and parcel of this is looking through to see what are the wider facilities locally, seeing whether there are opportunities for alignment in that regard and then working those opportunities through more generally as part of our modernisation and PE hall programme under the overall NDP delivery. We are conscious that the construction environment is difficult and challenging, which creates construction inflation pressures, and that we have many other priorities as well in terms of special needs. It is about working all those aspects through as best as possible.

Chairman

I have two more questions, on which I ask Mr. Loftus to get back to the clerk. First, as part of our work in the committee, we make key recommendations on making mental health supports and therapeutic counselling services available on site. As Mr. Loftus is aware, this is an issue the Minister has spoken about for some time. It will require additional spaces in schools to which students can go to talk privately and confidentially. What planning is going on within the Department to make sure there are facilities for such services to be rolled out?

Second is another issue that is relevant to the committee's work and recommendations. What plans does the building unit have for library rooms in all new-build schools at primary and post-primary level? We have spoken here about the importance of library facilities and everything like that as part of mental health supports provision. It is a key recommendation in one of our reports, which is being looked at by another section of the Department. I would appreciate if Mr. Loftus would get back to the clerk with replies on those two points.

Deputy Gould wants to come in now. We are here since 11 a.m. and would normally finish by 1.30 p.m. If the Deputy asks his question, I will make sure he gets a reply through the clerk.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I am on the board of management of Gaelscoil Pheig Sayers on the north side of Cork city. It is a DEIS school and has received sanction for a brand-new build to accommodate 300 students. However, there is no PE hall as part of that. This is a DEIS school in the heart of Cork's north side. The board of management has been told it must fundraise €100,000 if we want a PE hall. May I have an explanation as to why DEIS schools are being forced to fundraise €100,000 or the children will not get a PE hall? I ask for clarity on that. We are holding events at the moment to raise the money. If we cannot give the Department a commitment that we will come up with the money, we are told we will not get a proper PE hall.

If we cannot give the Department a commitment that we will come up with the money, we are told we will not get a proper PE hall. Another school, Gaelscoil an Ghoirt Álainn in Montenotte, was built in the past two years and did not get a proper PE hall. We are talking about getting children involved in sport and PE is a means to do that. When was the decision made not to provide PE halls for primary schools, especially in DEIS areas but in all schools? That is an issue on which the Chairman has touched. We need to reverse the decision on that policy. I cannot find out who made that policy decision and when.

Chairman

I will get a reply to that point.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I earlier attended a meeting of the Joint Committee on the Environment and Climate Action. I appreciate being allowed by the Chairman to ask a question. I get queries from parents and talk to schools ever year about the lack of school places. It was crazy in north Kildare this year. There is a severe shortage of school places in the area. Mr. Loftus will know that school facilities in Maynooth have been enhanced. There is one new school, and two new buildings have been erected at another school. Those schools are already oversubscribed. There is also a Gaelcholáiste in Maynooth which is waiting for a brief formulation report. It already has 140 students. This is only the school's third year in existence. It is hoping to have 200 students next year. It is a successful school. Three of its students had-----

Chairman

Projects.

Deputy Réada Cronin

-----presentations at the BT Young Scientist & Technology Exhibition. It is a great school.

We can see the outcome of the census. Principals across north Kildare tell me there is going to be a bulge in the population of the area in the next few years. Does the Department do anything to build in capacity? Maynooth University goes through the census numbers and produces an area report. We can see that kids are coming up through the system. Is there any serious plan to make sure that parents are not waiting ten years for a school? I was told my kids were going to be attending the new building in Maynooth post-primary school but they were in college by the time it opened.

Chairman

We normally finish at 1.30 p.m. I will be fair and ask our guests to reply to the committee members.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

That is fine. We are happy to provide answers to those questions.

Chairman

Do our guests wish to make any closing remarks before we wrap up?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity. I hope the meeting has addressed the issues raised by the committee. There is tremendous work being done on school building projects across the country. They are being delivered. We are doing well in respect of special needs. It is a challenging environment and 2023 will be a challenging year. However, we are doing a lot of work in the area of delivery.

Chairman

Mr. Dolan mentioned climate change. That is something the committee might look into further. We can seek information about what is happening in the Department in respect of old buildings and new builds. That will be an important issue, going forward, as Mr. Dolan said. Committee members might want to hear more about that. We might invite Mr. Dolan to come back before the committee. The work schedule is in place until the summer but at a later date, we might look into that issue. That might fit in with some of the other work of the committee.

I thank Mr. Loftus, Ms Mannion, Ms Cusack, Mr. Dolan, Mr. Doody and Mr. McLoughlin for coming before the committee. The briefing today has been informative on these issues that are of great importance to all the committee members.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.04 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 14 February 2023.

Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht - Tuesday, 31 Jan 2023

Briefing on Current and Future Plans for the School Building Unit: Department of Education

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. John Dolan

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. John Dolan

Mr. John Dolan

Mr. John Dolan

Mr. John Dolan

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Ms Martina Mannion

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Ms Martina Mannion

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Ms Áine Cusack

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Ms Áine Cusack

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

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Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Ms Áine Cusack

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Ms Áine Cusack

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Ms Áine Cusack

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Ms Martina Mannion

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Ms Martina Mannion

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Ms Áine Cusack

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. John Dolan

Mr. John Dolan

Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 31 Jan 2023