Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 May 2023

Education Needs of Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Andrew Geary, who is here to discuss the educational needs of deaf and hard-of-hearing students. We agreed earlier today that we would have another session in the coming months to which we would invite organisations and stakeholders on the needs of deaf and hard-of-hearing students. Today, we are discussing the needs in regard to STEM for our report. The format of the meeting is that I will invite Mr. Geary to make a brief opening statement and this will be followed by questions from members. Each member has a five-minute slot to ask questions and to include witnesses' responses. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on its website following the meeting.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I invite Mr. Geary to make his opening statement.

Mr. Andrew Geary

I thank the committee for asking me to come here today. I am very proud to be here, at the heart of our Government in Ireland. It makes me feel that I can give something back to my country today. I thank you all for asking me to come here. I am here primarily to speak on behalf of my son, Calum Geary. As the Chair has outlined, the organisations will speak for the education system throughout our country. I would like to reiterate the matters I have addressed in my opening statement, which I am sure the members have read.

The statistics are frightening, and they are international and not just bound to the island or the country of the Republic of Ireland. A lot of numbers go around in the deaf and hard-of-hearing community as regards educational outcomes and these are not precisely for Ireland but are in general discussion. A deaf signing child is ten times less likely to go to third level, four times less likely to be employed and three times more likely to suffer abuse during their life. The majority of deaf signing children, unfortunately, leave school and the full education system with the reading ability of an eight-year-old or nine-year-old child.

This is despite the fact we have numerous pieces of legislation in place, including the astounding and world-leading Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act. When it went through this House in 2004, unfortunately, not all parts were enacted but, again, this legislation was revolutionary when it was put together by this House in 2004. There was the Disability Act 2005, which also advocated for and enhanced the rights of our deaf citizens and other citizens with special needs.

We go back to the Education Act 1998, which provided for educational rights throughout the sector, again focusing on the needs of the deaf, and there was specific mention of sign language.

When we go to the Constitution, Article 40.3, one of the strongest articles in the Constitution, states that our country, our Republic, will vindicate the rights of its citizenship. Those are very strong words. It is there in black and white and it has been there for a very long time. Article 42 vindicates the right of our children to free access to education but that has not happened.

As I said, I am very humbled to be here today. I am deeply humbled to be at the heart of our democracy because democracy means a huge amount to me. I have worked as a public servant for 25 years, serving our country on the front line as a very humble, honest, hard-working part of An Garda Síochána. I have risked my life many times on behalf of our country, trying to keep our country safe and coming close to being killed on more than one occasion in the service of our Government and our democracy, which means a huge amount to me. I have gone abroad, humbly representing our country. One thing that comes back each time I travel abroad, wearing no matter what uniform – as Government Deputies, Opposition Senators or whatever – is that Irish people are listeners, communicators, passionate about education and they look back at our history.

When the dark ages took over Europe, who brought the works of Socrates and Plato back to Europe but the Irish monastic universities? When we look to the Enlightenment, again, was it not a strange coincidence that the Enlightenment probably saw the peak of deaf education across the world?

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Mr. Geary’s time is almost up.

Mr. Andrew Geary

That was probably down to a number of famous figures, such as Berthier, who brought that deaf education system back to Ireland. It was nuns who brought that to Cork and Dublin, and that is why Irish Sign Language, ISL, is first cousin to French sign language and American sign language on the sign language tree. Again, I ask the committee to look to what we are. The republican idea began in France and the highest level of sign language education in the history of mankind also occurred in Enlightenment France.

I ask members why my son and my family were forced to go through an absolutely draining, depressing and emotionally and financially stressful two years in the High Court after eight years of campaigning.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

We cannot discuss the case.

Mr. Andrew Geary

Thank you. That case has concluded.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Exactly. We are not here to discuss that today. Thank you very much for your contribution. I would say to those watching that we have ISL interpreters who are providing simultaneous interpretation of the meeting from the broadcasting unit. I call Deputy Clarke.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I welcome Mr. Geary. I do not intend to use our five minutes just with myself speaking. I want to ask two very specific questions because I think it is important that Mr. Geary's voice, the voice of his family and the voice of Calum are heard. I hope Calum is doing well. I understand he is at Bishopstown Community School. I hope he is enjoying his time, making lots of new friends and doing all of the things that every other child does when they go to secondary school.

Mr. Andrew Geary

He is, thanks to the bridge builders.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

On my first question, when Mr. Geary's family first came to be in this situation of needing sign language and knew this was going to be embedded in the family from that day forward, what supports were offered to them at that time? Was it whole-of-family support? Was it a very slow process? What does Mr. Geary want implemented so other families do not end up in the same situation?

Second, the Department has put in those two new individuals, the ISL specialist in-classroom support person and the adviser role.

In Mr. Geary's experience, and from what his family has been through, what is a reasonable time for a key performance indicator review to be carried out so that we are doing something that means something? He mentioned the EPSEN Act and Disability Act, which do not seem to have met the needs of his family at any point along the way. What does Mr. Geary want to see happening and what is the timeframe for it?

Mr. Andrew Geary

From a support point of view, we have had an interim measure in place since last September, which is providing my son with fully qualified interpreters in the classroom. We have seen an immense improvement in his lexicon and vocabulary and his ability to reach his potential. The new roles are in a settling-in period. Unfortunately, no one has taken up the roles. They have been advertised in a number of geographical areas in the country. We are still dealing with an interim measure which, I must say, is working brilliantly. I have some questions on the remuneration and the terms and conditions attached to the roles. There are eight to ten pages of precise details. These people will not be entitled to educational holidays. They will get public servants' holidays. I have some questions about this but they are for the Department of Education.

With regard to whole family support, it is up to the family to find it. A visiting teacher comes to the home. Ours was a very late diagnosis. Despite the fact that Calum has never heard a sound in his life, he was not diagnosed as deaf until he was well over two years of age. This has been remedied by newborn screening and it will not occur again. At the time, we knew something was wrong and it still took two years for it to be diagnosed. Families have to put in the effort themselves. It is up to them.

I had to do all of the research myself on deaf education. I discovered the work of Professor Marc Marschark of the Rochester Institute of Technology and, by coincidence, he came here in the late noughties. He wrote an important research paper. In telephone conversations with me he questioned the fact that he never got to speak to signing parents of deaf children. These are parents who went out and learned to sign proficiently so that they knew what level of sign was going on in the classroom environment. Weekends on newborn diagnosis were put together by the charities which are the backbone of what goes on in the deaf education sector. Our charities, community workers and carers are what we base our entire functional democracy on in this area.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Am I correct in saying that if there is a lack of capability, resources or knowledge in a family as to where to go to seek the additional support available in the various non-governmental sectors, that family is then at a further disadvantage to another family who needs the support?

Mr. Andrew Geary

It is up to each family to throw itself off the deep end into deaf culture, the deaf community and Irish Sign Language. We pay for it ourselves. There is a home tuition scheme of one hour a week. As we all know from the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages, CEFRL, and QQI levels, it takes a minimum of 600 hours to become proficient in a language. We have to become the role model for our children in gaining this proficiency. Until we have done 600 to 800 hours as per the CEFRL scale, we are not a fluent proficient model of language for our own children. We have to bring these people into our homes and introduce our children to people who are fluent in Irish Sign Language or signing interpreters to make sure they reach any level of proficiency. Our deaf children miss out on 90% to 95% of incidental learning in the first three to five years. I have twins. One is deaf and one has hearing. Donnacha received a minimum of 200 times more proficient language in the first five years of his life if we were to define my wife and I as proficient language users, which we were not.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I welcome Mr. Geary to the committee. I salute the great effort he and his family have made on behalf of Calum. Instituting proceedings against the State is not easy. Certainly when up against a defendant with virtually unlimited resources it puts great pressure on the individuals taking the case and their families. In terms of the result that the Gearys got and the outcome, it was worthwhile and they deserve to be commended for it.

Regarding the supports that Calum now has in the classroom, will Mr. Geary describe them for the committee and give us an overview of the consequences of his campaign to date?

Mr. Andrew Geary

I thank the Deputy for his comments. Calum has fully qualified interpreters with him at all times in the classroom. Therefore, his needs are served in the same way as every other language in the State, be that Irish, French, German or whatever. The person who accompanies him into the classroom now has an honours degree in Irish Sign Language. This gives him the appropriate level of proficiency in the management of subjects so when Calum studies his maths, geography or history, he is getting the full lexicon. That is the difference, rather than him going in and dealing with brilliant teachers - and my son has had some brilliant ones - who unfortunately did not have the time to dedicate to him. They had to learn Irish Sign Language in their own time, at their own expense. Now, as some of the Department's own reports state, he is not learning through pidgin or the lingua franca. That is the difference.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

One of the consequences of people vindicating their rights individually through the courts, as opposed to having the benefit of a governmental decision, is that sometimes individuals such as Calum can benefit but maybe other persons who have not taken the case may not benefit. What is Mr. Geary's understanding of other children around the country in a similar position and their access to Irish Sign Language in the classroom?

Mr. Andrew Geary

As I said on the "Late Late Show" just over two years ago, I wanted an open door for every child. The two roles have been opened for every deaf child in the country. That was my aim and that is what has been achieved. I cannot take the credit for that. It goes to many deaf education experts from across the world with whom I have engaged. I have made it my business to get to know them and bring affidavits together from them. I have utilised numerous pieces of legislation. I am very grateful to Senator Mark Daly for his assistance. I assisted in a small way in the Irish Sign Language Act 2017. It is vital that we look at the word "resource". We are looking at that word in the wrong way. In the dictionary, "resource" is not something that one does not utilise, rather it is something that is utilised. In time, when this role is fully established, I hope that 80 to 100 children similar to Calum, whose educational needs must be met through proficient sign language, will then have access through these two new roles.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Mr. Geary's campaign has been very effective, not just in the courts. I know through Senators Daly and Byrne and Deputy O'Sullivan that Mr. Geary's issues have been very much kept to the forefront of the political mindset in the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party.

That Calum now has the right to have Irish Sign Language in the classroom is all well and good but are the teacher resources there to provide not just for Calum but for all other children in the country who are in the same situation?

Mr. Andrew Geary

That is an excellent question. There is a programme under way in Dublin City University, DCU. The first four deaf primary school teachers are due to graduate very soon. The Department has given permission for the second cohort to come through the system. For the first time ever, we will have deaf teachers for deaf students. It is the first time in a long time that has occurred. Perhaps when it comes onstream that will level the playing field in primary schools as regards deaf role models and so on. However, the outcome of a High Court case in 2008 has never been fully implemented. Trinity College Dublin, TCD, had a fully outlined programme ready to roll out where there would be a fast-track continuing professional development, CPD, system for any teachers that needed this training. The programme was ready to go in 2008 and the pause button was pressed on it. We need to reintroduce it. We need to look at the teachers who are using their own time and money to become more fluent in the language they are teaching. It is the only language in the State where a teacher can go into a classroom with no professional qualification in sign language and teach it. To its credit, the UK has a programme, as the members are aware. However, British Sign Language is as different from Irish Sign Language as spoken English is from spoken Russian.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank Mr. Geary.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

It has been fascinating to read Mr. Geary's opening statement and to hear what he had to say and the discussion we have had today, which has given me a much deeper understanding.

Regarding the movement to third level education, obviously universities have considerable autonomy. Is there a coherent approach among the universities or do some universities have greater focus? I went to NUIG, now called University of Galway, which has several great programmes. I would be interested initially in that.

Prior to this meeting, I did some research on pay. In the earlier session we heard about people moving on from third level education. One of the witnesses told us that visually impaired and blind graduates are treated the same as those with no qualifications. What research has been done on deaf students coming out of university? The only study that I could find was from 2006. The majority of participants and the survey said they were in manual work and expected no promotion. Almost 70% of them earned less than €460 a week or just €22,000 a year. It pointed out that educational attainment was one of the reasons for this.

Mr. Andrew Geary

The same thing has happened to Calum this year. Calum has gone into mainstream secondary school. Quite often deaf students can find leaving the deaf environment going into a mainstream environment very intimidating and, therefore, unfortunately, dropout rates may be higher. I do not have the statistics. I am sure some of the expert testimony the committee will get in the future on this area will show there is a significant issue there. It is necessary to find interpreters. We have an enormous scarcity of interpreters per head of population. Someone going to university as a deaf signing person needs the highest quality interpreter to interpret complex terminology. It requires the best of the best. That is another difficulty in the educational context.

In addition, as I pointed out, a deaf person is four times less likely to be employed. Those who succeed, succeed despite the system. Although we have two deaf signers with doctorates, they are two people out of 5,000 first-language users on the island of Ireland who use ISL. A number of young people are coming towards that level, but that is through family-orientated support as pointed out by Deputy Clarke. That is because of the family background there. The whole family are able to sign. There may be older siblings who sign. It has been a whole-family success in those scenarios.

Senator Mark Daly opened the conference for me in 2016 in Portlaoise. He will recall that we brought two deaf ladies over from America, Leah Katz-Hernandez and Claudia Gordon. They are both deaf signing Americans who both worked in the White House. One was President Obama's West Wing adviser and the other was his social affairs adviser. We need to ensure that in the public service, in particular, we are the example for the rest of the world to look to. Up to now those people who rise to the top often do so in an educational context and stay within that educational context or sometimes public service. The people who go outside that need to go to the UK, Europe, Australia or America. Two close friends of ours recently moved abroad because they felt their deaf children would not reach their potential in Ireland. One had to move to the other side of the world to Australia, and one moved to the UK.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

What country does it well and is regarded as world class? It would be important for us in this committee to understand that so we can try to put that in place.

Mr. Andrew Geary

From an economy and a public service point of view, we always look to Scandinavian countries. Finland has between 500 and 800 interpreters for a similar deaf population of 5,000 to 6,000 people; we have 80.

Finland has between 500 and 800 interpreters for a similar population of 5,000 to 6,000 people. We have 80 interpreters. Finland uses a bilingual class education system where two teachers are in the class at all times. There is a deaf signing teacher and a speaking teacher. Sweden makes sure every deaf child is fluent in Swedish sign language, as well as written Swedish, when they leave its school system.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

We might have an opportunity to come back to that. I am just conscious a couple of members wish to leave. Deputy O'Sullivan has facilitated Senators Mark Daly and Malcom Byrne in coming in. Senator Daly will make a brief contribution and then we will move on to Senator Byrne.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Mr. Geary made an enormous contribution to the Irish Sign Language Act for the deaf community. I will put that on the record, because the deaf community had been championing recognition for sign language as one of the languages of the State, along with Irish and English, for four decades. Members of the deaf community were not able to access State services or be treated the same as other citizens of this State. Mr. Geary championed that issue, especially on the education element, and the legislation got passed. I will tell the committee how great that achievement was, in that it was only the sixth time in approximately 70 years, since the establishment of the Constitution, that Opposition legislation was passed in the Seanad. Mr. Geary's achievements are considerable, but he is challenging the system again through the courts. I thank him for all his work and service.

Mr. Andrew Geary

I am humbled. I thank the Senator.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I am not a member of this committee and I am grateful to the Chair for allowing me in. I have engaged with Mr. Geary previously, but I had to come down to thank him for all of his work. I hope, as I am sure Mr. Geary does, no other parent would have to go through the fight he did for Calum. There is a question with regard to the approach of lawyering-up taken by Departments. This is a challenge throughout the system. It is present not just in the education system but also in health, especially when it comes to disability. The shift in disability to a rights-based approach will certainly be welcome, but I am sure Mr. Geary will agree that most families do not want to have to deal with the lawyers. They want none of that. Will Mr. Geary comment on the lawyering-up approach taken by the State? How should the State respond?

Mr. Andrew Geary

The Senator is right, in that it is a cliff-face event when one decides to go to the High Court. Despite my employment and use of courts, the past two years have been the most stressful of my life. One cannot go in there unless one lawyers-up and one has to find the very best legal team. Our legal bills have been agreed, but they are well over €100,000. I will pay interest on that money until the State pays my legal team its fees. There is considerable stress in dealing with that on a day-to-day basis, knowing one's family home is at risk. Unfortunately, my wife and I had to make the decision to put our family home at risk to make sure my deaf son got an education. He deserves it. I do not care if I had to rent for the rest of my life; my son deserves an education.

I am deeply patriotic, as the members know. When I put on my uniform, it is a green jersey. When I see our flag flying, it causes my heart to pound in my chest. I am committed to this democracy and I am very thankful to this House. However, look at section 40 of our Constitution. It is the State's job to vindicate my son's rights. The founders of our Republic did not ask for citizens such as me to vindicate my son's rights. It was the State's job to make sure Calum Geary got an education. It is my job to parent. My wife and I have had to break ourselves backwards to make sure he got an education, despite brilliant teachers. Calum has always had brilliant teachers and schools, but the bridge-builders to his education were not there. I know it, although I am not an expert, because I had to read all the research and hundreds of books. The situation is disappointing. I am a public servant and I have given my life in service of our country. I have nearly been killed on duty. Like every other member, I have risked my life for this beautiful democracy.

We have an amazing democracy here. We should be so proud yet we are forcing the very citizens we are asking our country to cherish to go in and beg for an education. I am here today because of my teachers. I can tell the committee the name of every teacher I have had since I went into primary school. It is thanks to Brother Colm, Mr. Carey in Coláiste Chríost Rí, Professor Joe Lee; any of those amazing teachers. Those people are the reason. Charles Steward Parnell, Thomas Francis Meagher, Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty - they are the reason that we put on our uniform, go out in public service and we are so proud of this nation of ours. Our founders asked us to found a country on the principles of a republic. Are we truly a republic? How far have we moved in our 101 years of independence towards being a full republic if a child, one of the innocent children of our State, has to go in and beg for access to his education? Where is the republic in that? How do I ask my son to give service to the State for the rest of his life if the same country I am asking him to pledge his allegiance to will not even give him access to an education?

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I agree. We need that shift to a rights-based based approach. I genuinely want to thank Mr. Geary for his work. I am grateful to my friend and colleague Deputy O'Sullivan for the time to come in. I know Deputy Jim O'Callaghan acknowledged Senator Mark Daly and myself but Deputy O'Sullivan has advocated on this issue far more than anyone else. I hope nobody has to go through Mr. Geary's experience. I hope he will excuse me as I am due in the Chamber.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I apologise for rushing the Senator. I was under notice by Senators Malcolm Byrne and Daly that they had to run.

Mr. Andrew Geary

I am deeply grateful for the Senator's assistance.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I welcome Mr. Geary. We bumped into each other on the train on the way up but we did not brief each other beforehand, I promise. I echo previous speakers' sentiments about the work Mr. Geary has done. He should not have had to do it and we have always told him that. It has been a long campaign but ultimately he was vindicated and that needs to be acknowledged. I have a few quick questions; I prefer to hear from Mr. Geary than listen to myself.

He spoke about in-class tutors and adviser roles. That is something we have long fought hard for. How many of those positions have been advertised, successfully filled or have failed to be filled up to now? That is also in the context of his own situation. Second, can he highlight the difficulties in getting staff, or at least, adequately trained staff? Mr. Geary mention remuneration. Will he expand on that? I welcome that this is being broadcast with Irish Sign Language for people at home. Can Mr. Geary give an example of how many people need to be trained to satisfy the demand out there? Finally, I want to ask about Calum himself. We have a picture of what his education is like now. Mr. Geary said it is in quite a good position at the moment; will he give us an example of what it was like before those interventions? If the roles we are talking about were filled, what should his education look like in terms of additional resources?

Mr. Andrew Geary

I am deeply grateful for Teachta Pádraig O'Sullivan's huge assistance. It was very humbling and our family is deeply grateful for his having raised those issues for us continually in the heart of our democracy. I am very humbled by his commitment to deaf education and I thank him.

I might be corrected on this, but as far as I am aware from the Department of Education website, I believe the post has been advertised two or three times in the southern region, once in the western region and once in the eastern region. I believe one or two people have been offered the role but no one has taken up the role in the south.

I think there is a process being undergone in the west but from my anecdotal knowledge from networking with other parents, I do not believe anyone has filled the role in the east of the country. On the adequacies around the role, it can be a success. However, when you break down the amount that the person is being remunerated across the year and the number of hours an SNA is in a classroom against this new role, the person in the new role is getting paid less per hour than the old SNA role that did not work for my son. As I said, the new role has brilliant terms and conditions, raising the standard of the person who will be providing support in the classroom. The older SNA role would work for the vast majority of deaf and hard of hearing children who do not have profound hearing loss the same as Calum. Outside of the cohort of 80 or 100, this SNA role has probably worked for the vast majority. I pointed out this weakness that the remuneration does meet the terms of conditions attached to the role to the Department.

We need to set up a second interpreting school under the tutelage or stewardship of the Centre for Deaf Studies. I underwent a level 6 Irish Sign Language course in Munster Technological University, MTU, Tralee over the past few years. I do not need to do a four-year degree to become an interpreter, I believe, to go from a level 6 to a level 8. As outlined in today’s newspaper, it costs the average student attending University College Dublin, UCD, €750 in rent every month. No parent can afford to send their child to college in that environment. The excellent service being provided by the Centre for Deaf Studies is providing an average of four to six interpreters, barely covering the outgoing interpreters every year. They can come in and give their expert evidence in the future. We need to vastly improve the number of people coming out. As I said, we have a paltry number of interpreters at 80 against 500 to 800 in Finland. They have hundreds again for a similar population in Norway and Sweden. Our pro rata ratio is very poor.

As for Calum's picture in the past, he has always been a very happy child. He had a very happy time in primary school. We had some years of full access, when fully-qualified people were in the classroom. When we did not have that fully-qualified person in the classroom, that is, a person who did not have a degree in Irish Sign Language, those were difficult years for us, despite brilliant efforts by the teachers. I would never knock his teachers, who were all amazing people. Each one of them was better than the next. However, in those particular years that there was a huge amount of work on our behalf at home. My wife had to spend hundreds and thousands of hours over Calum’s life on such work. The reason he can read so well today is thanks to Helen Geary and the number of hours that she gave reading with him at home.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Mr. Geary gave us a picture of what Calum’s education is like now and it is vastly improved from previous years. With the implementation of the two new roles, what should it look like going forward in his remaining secondary years?

Mr. Andrew Geary

I am not sure we can catch up on his full potential before he leaves secondary school but the bridge to his full potential is there. There is no fault in the education system with the access that is there now, so it is on him. If he does not do his homework, that is not any fault of the school. He is getting full access to everything that goes on in that classroom. He comes home and does his homework, whether that is maths, history or geography. Believe it or not, Calum is still learning French. Imagine that. A deaf, signing child is still learning French at the end of first year in secondary school. That shows the absolute potential of this role. That is heartbreaking for me but it is also deeply humbling.

I truly believe in this House because of the questions that were asked here. There are three pillars of our democracy: the centre of Government here with our Deputies and Senators asking questions, the storytellers telling the story in the media and the High Court. Unfortunately, in our case, we needed all three pillars and that is why I am broken and burnt out today. However, I am very thankful to our democracy and I deeply love my country.

It tore me apart that I felt I was being disloyal to it. The clerk has warned me not to use another word and I will not do so. I do feel, though, that I have been disloyal to my country in bringing it to the High Court and this has broken me in two.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank Mr. Geary. He absolutely has not been disloyal. Throughout his contributions, I could hear that he feels like he almost has to defend himself and his rights. As a solicitor, I would argue that he does not and that he has done the right thing. The clerk has also been warning me and this is why I have been cautious, which is also correct. We must ensure Mr. Geary is protected in this arena too. What age is Calum now?

Mr. Andrew Geary

He is 14.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Mr. Geary must be very proud of him-----

Mr. Andrew Geary

I am.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

-----and of his twin.

Mr. Andrew Geary

Yes. I have four sons and I am very proud of all my boys. I just want them to love their country as much as I do.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Yes. We are all genuinely indebted to Mr. Geary and everyone who brings a case in this way. Much of the progress that has happened has occurred through people bringing this kind of action. Mr. Geary is quite right in saying he should not have to do so, but because he has done it, other people now have more access and more progress will come as a consequence. I echo what my colleagues said. We are grateful to have Mr. Geary here and we thank him for his contributions. I call Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Earlier, I referred to this meeting being covered through Irish Sign Language, ISL, on Oireachtas TV, which is very welcome. I will cite some of the statistics concerning ISL programming carried by the public broadcaster. To give people an example, in 2019, some 3% of programming on RTÉ 1 and RTÉ 2 was in ISL. This has now increased to 5% in 2023. The RTÉ Junior channel has gone from 2% to 4% and Oireachtas TV from 4% to 6%. There are, therefore, gradual increases here, but we will all agree there is a long road to go in respect of ISL provision by the main broadcaster.

To pose some follow-up questions to Mr. Geary, he referred to DCU providing the course earlier. Has he had any interaction with any other university or higher education authority regarding the provision of a further course of this type? I ask Mr. Geary to give us any details in this regard.

Mr. Andrew Geary

Yes. Trinity College Dublin, TCD, runs its Centre for Deaf Studies, which covers sign language interpreting and sign language teaching. It also produces graduates in deaf studies. DCU, as I said, is doing the first course for primary teaching. I have done a level 6 course with Munster Technological University, MTU, Tralee over the last few years. It is an excellent course that has brought my sign language to another level. I have done levels 5 and 6 and there is potential there for a partnership.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

A business case.

Mr. Andrew Geary

Many countries tend to bring people from level 6 to level 8 in partnership. I suggest this could be a way to increase the numbers. At the moment, the graduates being produced are only replacing those leaving the profession. Four to six graduates in this area are being produced annually. They are brilliant, of the highest calibre and some of the best in Europe. They are not, however, sufficient in number to provide the service the members of our deaf community require. It is the provision of their constitutional rights we are trying to adhere to. I ask the Government to explore facilitating extra courses, extra places or a partnership with another third-level institution.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

It is something this committee could probably facilitate.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I agree with that point. I have tried to get ISL interpreters myself for events and it has been incredibly difficult. There is a desire to do that, though, because we need to make things as accessible as possible. Mr. Geary's suggestion, therefore, could be a recommendation of this committee.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I would appreciate that. I have one last question and then I will be done.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Okay.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Mr. Geary has already kind of answered this question earlier in respect of the progress Calum has made now due to recent interventions. I think I know the answer to my query already, but has he lost out?

Mr. Andrew Geary

Oh, yes, hugely so.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

In his remaining years in secondary school, are there any additional interventions he should be getting, and not just Calum but all the other children in these circumstances? Should there be some way to, and I hate to use the word compensate but to ameliorate the loss of time?

Mr. Andrew Geary

As part of our action in the High Court, we sidestepped that point recently to come to a negotiated settlement. Calum has, however, lost out on a great deal of learning. There is no doubt about this when we compare him to his brother. My oldest son has gone off to university. He has done that through his own hard work and had nothing to do with me or my wife. He is studying medicine and I know Calum has the same brains. The same look is in his eyes. I have no doubt he has the same intelligence and intellect, but has this option been taken off the table for him? There is absolutely no doubt but that it has. No matter how hard he works, he is not going to get 600 points in his leaving certificate examinations because his level of English is years behind where it should be. He does, though, work hard and I want him to reach his potential. I am looking forward and this is where I keep focusing, despite the need to look backwards to put our cases together. I am, though, very thankful. I am a very grateful person. I believe this may be the destination of Calum's access. I am fearful, and I am always a pragmatist, that this may be another junction on our road towards achieving access. I am praying this time, however, that this will be our destination that results in full access.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank Mr. Geary.

Mr. Andrew Geary

I thank the committee.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank Mr. Geary. We really appreciate his coming in and sharing his first-hand experiences. It has been invaluable.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.06 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 30 May 2023.