Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 2023

Ireland-Canada Trade Relations: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

We are now in public session. Anyone joining the meeting remotely needs to do so from within the Leinster House complex, as members are well aware. We have not received any apologies to date.

Today, we are going to look at Ireland-Canada trade relations. Ireland and Canada share many common ties and enjoy a positive relationship. Trade between Ireland and Canada has brought huge benefits to both countries and continuing to strengthen the ties between our nations is a matter of great importance. I am pleased, therefore, to have the opportunity today to consider this and other related matters further with the Minister of State with special responsibility for trade promotion, digital and company regulation, Deputy Calleary. He is joined by the following officials from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment: Mr. Stephen Curran, principal officer; and Ms Amanda Smith, assistant principal officer. I also welcome Ms Suzanne Drisdelle, senior trade commissioner with the Embassy of Canada in Ireland; Ms Julie Connell, director of the US–Canada unit in the Department of Foreign Affairs; and Mr. David Costello, deputy director of the US-Canada unit in the Department of Foreign Affairs, who are all in the Public Gallery.

Before we start, I will explain parliamentary privilege to the witnesses. There are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege.

Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Opening statements have been circulated to members. To commence our consideration of this matter, I invite the Minister of State to make his opening remarks.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Dara Calleary)

Gabhaim buíochas don Chathaoirleach agus don choiste as an gcuireadh a bheith anseo inniu chun caint faoi chúrsaí idir Éirinn agus Ceanada. Táim díreach ar ais ó Cheanada. Tá sé suimiúil gur tír dhátheangach í agus is é sin rud ar fiú a thabhairt faoi deara. I am delighted to be here, and to be joined by my colleagues who have already been introduced by the Cathaoirleach. Amanda Smith is in her first week in the Department, so I welcome her. I thank Suzanne Drisdelle and the ambassador, in particular, for their assistance in preparing our programme for our recent trip.

I do not need to tell the Cathaoirleach about the very strong bond between Ireland and Canada, a bond formed through the creation of many partnerships across the Atlantic Ocean over many years. Bilateral relations between Canada and Ireland are close, with, as I have referred to, a long-standing combination, reaching back over generations, of family ties, cultural affinities and shared democratic traditions. In fact, approximately 14% of the Canadian population claims some Irish ancestry. March was named as Irish heritage month across Canada this year, in an acknowledgement of the contribution Irish Canadians are making.

The Ireland Canada Business Association, ICBA, has been instrumental in promoting and developing trade and industrial links between Ireland and Canada. The business communities in Ireland and Canada have strong ties with each other and new linkages are being developed on an ongoing basis. The ICBA has been key in strengthening these relationships since it was founded in 1978 and it provides an essential representative voice for more than 90 companies conducting business between the two countries. The Irish Canada Economic Opportunity, a report written by Jim Power, was commissioned by the ICBA and launched in September. It provides a powerful confirmation of the current strong status of trade relations between Ireland and Canada:

The Ireland Canada relationship is thriving politically, economically, and culturally. Ireland remains a stable economy and continues to attract Canadian companies who are looking for a like-minded open business environment with a global outlook. In turn Canada has become an important export market for Irish SMEs who wish to access the North American marketplace. The economic value of trade between both countries is a focus point for policy makers and business leaders while the societal value of the relationship is one that is much valued.

According to this report, Irish exports to Canada could double in the next five years. It also notes that while Ireland is very heavily dependent on US companies in the context of trade and FDI, Canada also offers significant potential for Ireland to diversify its external trading relationships. My own recent trade mission to Canada set out to strengthen our relationships with key Canadian partners across industries of strategic importance to Ireland. The trade mission also promoted world-class Irish companies and SMEs that are growing and developing business opportunities across Canada. Canada is a key export market, particularly for our indigenous exporters, with more than 400 Enterprise Ireland clients doing business there. The value of Ireland's total trade with Canada in 2021, which is the latest year for which service trade data is available, was €6 billion, which is a 150% increase over 10 years. The value of exports from Ireland to Canada in 2021 was €4.2 billion, while imports were valued at €1.6 billion. Some 69% of exports from Ireland to Canada in 2021 were service exports and 31% were goods exports.

Canada is Ireland's tenth-largest goods export market and 20th-largest services export market. Goods exports to Canada in 2022 increased significantly, by 156% to €3.4 billion, due mainly to increases in exports of organic chemicals and medical and pharma products. Ireland’s main goods exports to Canada are organic chemicals - mainly for the pharmaceutical sector, medical and pharmaceutical products and inorganic chemicals. Ireland’s main goods imports from Canada are cereals and cereal preparations, medical and pharmaceutical products and petroleum, petroleum products and related materials.

Enterprise Ireland opened its first Canadian office in Toronto in October 2006. In 2019, IDA Ireland opened its first presence in Canada and both organisations are co-located in Toronto. The establishment, under the Government’s Global Ireland 2025 initiative, of the Enterprise Ireland presence in Montreal in 2020 is a further investment in the potential of the Canadian market. That office was officially opened in November 2021. Both agencies took advantage of the recent trade mission to showcase the positive economic impact of their presence in market. Enterprise Ireland's key purpose on our recent mission was to strengthen our relationships with key Canadian partners across industries of strategic importance to Ireland, to promote world-class Irish companies that have achieved leading market positions across Canada, to support continued client growth by providing forums for Enterprise Ireland client companies targeting the Canadian market, especially its construction and fintech markets, to connect with current and prospective business partners and to build on our recent record-high exports of over $452 million to Canada by Enterprise Ireland client companies.

IDA Ireland's opportunities on the recent visit were to promote Ireland’s attractiveness as a location for Canadian foreign direct investment. Since it opened in 2019, IDA Ireland's Toronto office has been successful in growing investments made by Canadian companies in Ireland, as well as attracting new companies for investment. Our recent mission was the first in-person trade mission to Canada since 2021 and gave me an opportunity to restate Ireland’s global position in a post-pandemic world as a stable location for investment and expansion, despite an ever-changing global environment for investment flows. IDA Ireland also used the opportunity to build relationships with representatives and decision-makers from important IDA Ireland clients in Canada. It used the opportunity to promote transformation, sustainability and research, development and innovation in line with the White Paper on enterprise. It was again an opportunity to showcase a wide range of sectors typical of Canada, which is diverse in industrial output. Canada is home to some of the world’s leading financial services, technology and consumer, content and business services companies as well as a growing life sciences sector. Our recent mission offered an opportunity to showcase the sectoral spread of companies from Canada that choose to locate in Ireland.

In leading the recent trade mission to Vancouver and Toronto, I had the opportunity to highlight Canada as an important trading partner for Ireland, especially across the construction, digital tech, fintech and life science sectors. In 2022, Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland delivered strong growth in the Canadian market, with, as I said, Enterprise Ireland client exports reaching a record €452 million, which is up 11%. This trade mission built upon the recent success of Irish business and will I hope create, along with members' visit, further opportunities and profile for investment into Ireland and especially for Irish companies exporting to Canada.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State. I invite members who wish to discuss this issue to indicate. We have a roster and Deputy O'Reilly is first.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank the Minister of State and his officials. I welcome Ms Smyth and wish her the best of luck. I hope she really enjoys and does well in her new role.

I will ask the Minister about the 400 Enterprise Ireland currently doing business in the Canadian market. The breakdown is worth €4.2 billion, which is not a small amount of money, but 69% are service exports and 31% goods exports. Is it the same breakdown for the Enterprise Ireland clients or is their profile different? I am just wondering about where there is potential for growth. It is currently split between 69% for service exports and 31% for goods exports. Is the profile of the Enterprise Ireland clients the same?

Deputy Dara Calleary

I do not have the precise figure of the profile and will get it for the Deputy, but my sense is it would not be. There are probably more goods exports. There is a really good tradition of engineering companies from Ireland such as Combilift working in Canada with Canadian construction partners and we visited a key trade partner with Combilift. There is also Moffett Automated Storage, a new company also based in Monaghan, which is working with a major partner in Toronto that we were able to showcase. We had some companies and services in fintech and we launched a fintech round forum of some Ireland-based companies that are doing business with Canadian Government agencies in providing software and fintech solutions. One of the key aims for Enterprise Ireland in this visit was to showcase Irish companies that are in the market, to expand their presence in the market but also to offer a stage for new Irish companies and to offer support. We are very lucky we have a superb Enterprise Ireland team in Canada. They are exceptionally committed and I thank them for their assistance and ongoing work. The Deputy and other members will get to meet them when they are over there.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Absolutely, and we are very much looking forward to that. My question related to where there is scope for growth. Most of my questions will relate to that, jut to try to get a handle on it.

The Minister of State referenced our being heavily dependent on US companies in the context of trade and FDI and that there is significant potential for increase in the trade between Ireland and Canada. There is definitely scope there, but with respect to FDI from Canada, what are the Government's plans to continue to attract that investment into the future? I talked to a number of multinational companies recently. The landscape is changing, as the Minister of State knows. The 15% corporation tax rate is a factor. Companies are now looking for what we might call different incentives. What supports and incentives are going to be put in place or enhanced and expanded to underpin the strategy and continue to attract FDI?

Deputy Dara Calleary

Going back to the Deputy's first question, the opportunities we have identified and prioritised are in fintech and construction. We launched a construction forum. The construction industry in Canada is buoyant and there are huge opportunities for Irish high-tech construction firms. Some of the senior executives of various companies in the Canadian construction sector are also first-generation Irish and that goes back to our point about the Irish diaspora.

On FDI, as part of the OECD arrangement we are going to 15% and IDA Ireland has done a strong job in communicating that. The recent budget also includes improvements in the research and development tax credit that will allow companies increase their research and development presence and the value of their presence in Ireland. We had a number of engagements with IDA Ireland client companies where we walked through what will be involved in that. The companies do not just come here for tax reasons, as the Deputy knows. They come because of our strong labour force and strong skills availability. We were able to go through the work that is under way on skills and future skills needs, the work being done, for instance on AI, by the commission on future skills needs. We were able to give assurances our skills profile is still strong and still relevant to the kind of companies we are engaging with. Our tax offering is one aspect, but the research and development offering is another and the importance of the availability of a strong labour force that is highly educated and flexible cannot be overstated.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Yes, and I was not suggesting tax is the only reason, but it is less of an incentive. We can all agree on that. I am interested to explore where the potential for the growth is and whether we are pivoting to ensure we are maximising what we get back from the investment.

I return to increasing exports among Irish companies and diversifying our trading relationships. We have a very open economy and a significant trade surplus relative to our size, but that is not always the case within the SME sector. Our export levels are very low in the SME sector by international comparisons. Only 6% of our SMEs directly trade across borders and the share of SMEs in total domestic value added exports is also relatively low by comparison with other states.

Most SMEs do not export. A significant percentage of existing SME exporters only trade with the British market. There is a significant opportunity for both growth and jobs in this area. Given the unique challenges faced by SMEs, such as current low levels of cross-border trading and the fact that they export at an earlier stage in their life cycle than other European countries, we obviously need Government policy and funding to suit the need for that growth. Some 6% is a low figure. There is scope to expand it. Does the Minister of State believe if a bespoke policy of planning and strategic funding streams is now needed for our SMEs to capitalise on exporting, specifically to Canada but more generally to other countries? Does he see a need to look at SMEs, particularly at a low level, and to tailor a suite of measures to encourage that figure to grow? It is specifically Canada in this instance but also more broadly in general.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I agree with the Deputy. We absolutely need to grow that figure. We are putting investments in place to do that. For instance, Enterprise Ireland has six staff in Canada, including a manager, senior market adviser, market adviser and two international graduates. The support that it gives to companies that want to come into the Canadian market is extraordinary. It is dedicated and focused. It is tailored to the specific companies. According to the companies I met, as the Deputy will get a sense of when she travels, there are significant opportunities for Irish companies to take the jump and go beyond the UK market. Yesterday, in association with our colleagues in the Department of Foreign Affairs, we had a forum looking at the Latin American and Caribbean market. We had people and companies in with Enterprise Ireland at Dublin Castle for a forum. Enterprise Ireland advisers are in Dublin to try to encourage companies to look at the market too.

We need to continue the expansion. Canada is a good case. We have put resources behind that ambition to expand our Enterprise Ireland footprint and to work with our colleagues in the Department of Foreign Affairs through the Global Ireland initiative. I put on record my thanks to our consul in Vancouver, Cathy Geagan, and our consul in Toronto, Janice McGann, who work closely with Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland as part of the team Ireland initiative. We need to work far more closely with the local enterprise offices to encourage companies to take the leap to exporting, because there are significant opportunities there.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

That was my question. Part of the focus is growing the 6%, specifically for SMEs. That is where there seems to be a lag. Many SMEs are only servicing a domestic market and will never export, which is fine. For the ones that will, that figure is low. Will specific measures be targeted at SMEs to encourage that figure to increase from 6%?

Deputy Dara Calleary

Next year, we will expand the local enterprise office budget by €9 million. Next year, LEOs mark their tenth birthday. Deputy Bruton was the creator of them all those years ago. We are tightening the connection between the local enterprise offices and Enterprise Ireland. The companies that have the capacity to export and want to export will have a relatively seamless transition and the supports will be put in place. You can only bring a horse to water; you cannot make it drink.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I understand that.

Deputy Dara Calleary

What I would say to companies that are thinking about it and maybe have a fear, because it is a big step to make, is that the support available, having seen it first-hand during the recent trip, is extraordinary. It is tailored to the company, its markets and its ability to deliver. It is definitely worth engaging with Enterprise Ireland on it.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I appreciate that you cannot make the horse drink the water, but a drop of Ribena could be put in it, as if it was a child, to make sure the horse stays hydrated. I was in Vancouver earlier this year and I was struck by most of the businesspeople I was speaking to. I spoke to a number of trade unions too and to the consul. The focus is very much on expansion and growth, which was welcome.

I want to talk briefly about CETA and the investor court system. We know this gives multinational companies the right to sue governments for alleged breaches of their rights. Why does the Government remain wedded to enacting this aspect of CETA when we see other European countries disentangling from similar aspects of other treaties such as the Energy Charter Treaty? Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain and Poland have all announced their intention to leave the Energy Charter Treaty over these investment and arbitration courts. An oil and gas company, Rockhopper, is demanding €260 million from the Italians for banning new oilfields off its coasts. This is just an example of what is happening. Ascent wants €120 million from Slovenian taxpayers for prioritising the environment over gas with regard to fracking. The list goes on and on. There is direct evidence that these investor courts are not good for countries, people and definitely not taxpayers. I am struggling to understand why our Government remains wedded to involving the State in another court like this. Can the Minister of State enlighten me why that is, when the mood across the EU seems to be to leave these courts, as with the Energy Charter Treaty?

Deputy Dara Calleary

Regarding CETA, there was a Supreme Court decision last year, which is currently being assessed by the Attorney General. The Deputy is looking at one aspect of CETA. There is so much more to it. I make no apologies that Ireland is an advocate for fair trade and free trade. The kind of opportunities and the potential that she has spoken about are embedded and wrapped up in free trade. We feel, and it was my experience a fortnight ago, that Canada is a like-minded partner. It shares our values and principles. It shares our common belief in a rules-based multilateral trading system. The provision application of CETA has been the background to the increase in our goods exports, which went from €936 million in 2016 to more than €3.3 billion in 2022. Services exports grew from €1.44 billion in 2016 to more than €2.8 billion. The provisional application has allowed that to flow. It has allowed an increase in the connection and a deepening of the business relationships. It is way above my paygrade when it comes to the Attorney General and issues that need to be involved but the overall effect of CETA is positive for Ireland-Canada relationships.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Does the Minister of State agree that this increase in growth, as he describes it, which I do not dispute, is happening without the investor court section of CETA being enacted? It is not a necessary portion of it. The trade is increasing. The figures that the Minister of State has outlined are proof that it is going in the right direction, which is good. Other countries are leaving the investor court system for all the reasons, and for the millions of taxpayers' euro. The increase in exports is happening without the investor court system. I would have thought it is not a requirement.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I am conscious that this is subject to agreement but one cannot cherry-pick bits of the deal that suit. The Government has gone through every aspect of the CETA deal and feels it is good for Irish companies and Canadian companies, and that it will strengthen our relationship and even the business and commercial relationship. The Deputy will get a sense of that when she visits. Hopefully, she will have discussions about the potential.

Senator Ollie Crowe

I thank the Minister of State, and Mr. Curran and Ms Smyth for joining us this morning. Has Brexit had an impact on foreign direct investment? Has there been an increase in the number of Canadian companies setting up in Ireland post Brexit? Is there an opportunity to further capitalise on this?

Deputy Dara Calleary

There is absolutely a bigger interest. Post Brexit, we were hit by the pandemic, which has made some Canadian companies a little more cautious about investment. Our approach during the recent trade mission was to meet existing clients, predominantly, and to reflect on their investments. Some of them have increased employment in the context of Brexit and the expanded opportunities, and others are planning to. Current global conditions are making long-term investment decisions a little more difficult, but they are very much attracted to Ireland's offer. Going back to Deputy O'Reilly's question, they are very much attracted to the enhanced changes that we made, particularly to our research and development tax credit, in the recent budget.

Brexit is a factor but it is only a minor one.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

As the Minister outlined, Irish export volumes have risen considerably following the provisional application of CETA, and this has been an enormous boost to hundreds of companies with thousands of employees. In his opening remarks, the Minister of State said the Government remains committed to ratifying the agreement and is consulting the Attorney General. Can the Minister of State advise if there is any time pressure with regard to this? Is there a looming deadline by which we will need to have completed ratification? If so, what will be the consequences of not ratifying before it?

Deputy Dara Calleary

The Attorney General is going through all the issues involved and we await his judgment. I would not be cheeky enough to give the Attorney General a timeline. There is a very strong relationship between both countries economically, societally and culturally and it is in our interest to develop and strengthen it.

An Cathaoirleach

The next group is Fine Gael, which has 14 minutes. Deputy Stanton to go first. He has been a champion of trade between Ireland and Canada. He pushed this for many months before we got to this stage. This time next week, four of us from the committee will be in Canada. I am looking forward to that.

Deputy David Stanton

It was with much support from the Cathaoirleach and colleagues. We have all been considering this.

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials, and also the people in the Public Gallery. I echo what the Minister of State said about the support of the embassy and the ICBA for trade and the promotion of the relationship between Ireland and Canada.

I must put on record that I have a family member living in Vancouver. We will not be going there, however. I am told that Vancouver has the fastest-growing GAA club in the world. There are so many Irish there, which is just amazing. It is an extraordinarily attractive place for young Irish people to visit and live for a period before coming back with new skills and so on.

The Minister of State said that according to the excellent Jim Power report, commissioned by the ICBA, Irish exports to Canada could double in the next five years, given the right conditions. Does he agree with that sentiment? Where does he see the exports coming from?

Deputy Dara Calleary

I agree with the ambition. I acknowledge the Deputy is the chair of the Ireland–Canada parliamentary friendship group, and I thank him for his work on this. I agree with him in that I know the growth can be achieved. I have seen the work of some of the companies. As I said to Deputy O’Reilly, we, particularly Enterprise Ireland, have identified fintech. We had a very good fintech forum at which we had some Irish companies around the table with Canadian companies and operators, including some start-ups and some established companies. Second, construction was identified, but particularly high-tech construction. Irish construction companies have gained significant experience from their work on some of our incoming FDI projects. In pharmaceuticals and technology, our expertise is now all over the world. There are Irish companies supplying the Canadian construction market. A glass company in Tipperary has provided the glass for one of the biggest tower blocks in Toronto. Construction and fintech services will definitely feature.

It is important for companies that are serious about exporting to note that when they develop relationships and have a physical presence in Canada, which entails a big investment, their investment will be returned. The companies that have been successful have either a physical presence involving their own staff or a presence through an agent. I believe the market is big. It is a five-hour flight from Vancouver to Toronto, which has a different market. Different regions have different cultural challenges, so any company that is serious eventually needs to put boots on the ground.

Let me return to a point I made to Deputy O’Reilly on the quality of Enterprise Ireland staff in Canada. Their commitment and their knowledge of the various parts of and trends in the market are extraordinary, and companies should engage with them.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Minister of State for that. I agree with what he said. In his submission, he stated 18% of all Canadian IDA Ireland clients originate in British Columbia. I agree that having feet on the ground is important. Hats off to the IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland staff in Canada and elsewhere. They are doing a marvellous job. I met them when I had the Minister of State’s role. What they do is just amazing.

The Minister of State said Canada is a massive country and that we have a presence in certain parts of it. Has he given any thought to increasing our presence in the centre of Canada, for instance, in Calgary, Edmonton and Saskatchewan? It is a vast area. I believe the third largest city in Canada is Calgary. The Minister of State might outline our presence there. It is a long way from Toronto or Ottawa to Calgary. It is really in the centre and it is growing. From looking at the map, does the Minister of State agree we could increase our presence there? Having feet on the ground, including those of the State and its agencies, is important. Has the Department or Government given any thought to opening up offices or having a presence in the Calgary area of Canada because it is so big and doing extraordinarily well in fintech and other areas?

Deputy Dara Calleary

Not that I am aware of. We are trying to bed down what we have. Other markets are also demanding our attention but I know the team in Toronto services the area pretty diligently. We had some companies from Saskatchewan with us during the trip, given the connections there. Ideally, I would love to have more bodies and resources in the region but it is an Enterprise Ireland matter. I am very conscious that we put it under huge pressure with respect to other markets. I am not ruling out the Deputy’s proposal by any means. There is definitely great potential.

Deputy David Stanton

The Minister of State might consider it. The region is probably the fastest growing in Canada. Jim Power states Ireland needs to build its presence in Canada. We have a lot done but there is a lot more that we can do.

With respect to Irish companies investing in Canada, what did the Minister of State pick up from his trip? What do they need to do and what supports can we give them? Are they getting enough support if they want to invest in Canada? Are companies in Ireland aware of the potential of the Canadian market?

Deputy Dara Calleary

Some of them are. If they are hungry enough, they are. I do not mean that in a smart way; it is just that we got a sense of it from the companies we met, which were in construction and fintech. The whole plan of one of them was to set up its product and service so as to invest in Canada. It did that during Covid. Others have built on existing relationships and solutions and have adjusted those solutions to changing markets. The companies in Canada would say there is a lot in common culturally and much affinity, but in business these do not count for anything unless the product, service and price are right. The successful Irish companies in the Canadian market deliver on all of these. They are also heavily invested in innovation.

Irish companies in Canada are investing significantly in innovation here. Combilift is a company with a serious track record of investment in its own innovation. It is constantly providing solutions. We think the weather here is challenging but different regions of Canada provide different challenges, particularly in construction. Irish companies are providing solutions in this regard. You have to be innovative and invest in innovation, as the successful companies are doing.

Deputy David Stanton

I have two more questions. One is the mirror image of the one I just asked.

Regarding Canadian companies investing in Ireland, we have a very strong record on US foreign direct investment. We are only starting to engage with Canada and reach out to large Canadian companies to have them locate and invest here. There are some here already but my sense is that there could be many more. Can the Minister of State give us his views on that, state what IDA Ireland is doing and outline the reaction to his overtures in Canada?

Deputy Dara Calleary

We had some very good meetings, many of which were actually in Cork, which seems to have a good Canadian presence. I will do my best for the people of Cork.

Deputy David Stanton

Well done. I thank the Minister of State.

Deputy Dara Calleary

We have two IDA Ireland executives in Toronto at the moment, and they are backed up by the North American team, who give them really good support. I thank Mark Shorten, vice president for financial services and life sciences. He led out on this and did considerable work. I also thank Deirdre Moran, the country manager. We met representatives of several companies that are very happy with their presence in Ireland and that are going to maintain what they have.

Others are looking at opportunities. They are definitely looking at opportunities to expand their existing presence and at how they can expand. They are looking at the supports - coming back to Deputy O'Reilly's question - that are available. We were able to update them on those supports. Again, the one thing I have noticed not just in Canada but all over is that the presence of Irish people on senior management teams in these companies is a massive door-opener. They are there. In the middle of some of the biggest companies that we met, there are Irish people at the very top or in mid-rank with regard to executive decisions. They are putting on the Irish jersey. It is not just the GAA that is the fastest growing, it is Irish executives who are also the fastest-growing team around the world, and in Canada as well.

Deputy David Stanton

I am glad to hear they are putting on the Cork jersey as well. That is hugely important.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I did not put on the jersey.

Deputy David Stanton

Obviously, it works both ways. Canadian companies will benefit from investing here because Ireland is the gateway to Europe. We are an English-speaking people, we are in the Eurozone and we have all the advantages that Deputy O'Reilly listed earlier a.

The one issue that remains outstanding, which Deputy O'Reilly has also listed, is that relating to CETA. It is a full year since the Attorney General was before the Supreme Court and it gave its ruling. It is a year since that was given to the Attorney General to, as I understand it, make changes to the legislation, namely,the arbitration Acts and so on. Has the Minister of State any sense as to what is happening there? Are we going to see this coming forward? It is a matter of concern and interest that even though the trade issue is growing and all the other relationships are very strong, this still remains on the table and needs to be resolved one way or the other. Where does the Minister of State see it going, and how soon will the Attorney General come back with it?

Deputy Dara Calleary

The Department and the unit are in regular contact to try to get a sense of progress. We do not have a timeline on it. In fairness to him, and I know from other issues we are dealing with him on, his office is pretty stretched. It is important that we get clarity. The relationship is there, and the potential relationship is absolutely enormous. Building on potential - and using every tool we have to build on it - has to be our priority.

Deputy David Stanton

I have a final question. I have been asked about research and development, our relationships with universities and that area of scientific development and interest. I know that the Minister of State's own area is around digital as well. Could he comment on whether there is a sense that there is potential to do more between our universities and research institutions here, and the Canadian mirror image of that?

Deputy Dara Calleary

I think there is. We already have a huge presence. Off the top of my head, I do not know how many Canadian students are here in Ireland. They are one of the biggest cohorts that are here to study at third and fourth level. I know the Minister, Deputy Harris, was out there earlier this year as part of the St. Patrick's Day missions. He had engagements in his capacity with colleges in Vancouver and Toronto. I would imagine we will see something coming out of there as well.

Deputy David Stanton

This is my final comment. It was mentioned that Canada has chosen March as its Irish heritage month. There was a unanimous decision in the Canadian Parliament, and Mr. James Maloney MP, the rapporteur for the Canada-Ireland Interparliamentary Friendship Group on the other side, was very instrumental. We must recognise him for furthering that work. It is massively important for us because as the Minister of State said, so many Irish people over the centuries and decades have contributed so much. Our ambassador out there, Eamonn McKee, has done a lot of work in pulling this together. It is really insightful to see the impact they have had. Perhaps we need to do more here in Ireland to recognise Canada. We have a great relationship with the United States and that is hugely important but our relationship with Canada needs more tender loving care to build it up further. Has the Minister of State or anyone else in the Department any further plans to visit Canada in the near future?

On increasing our footprint there with respect to IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland, and more staff and support for those organisations, I feel that if they had that extra resource they could do even more than they are doing at the moment in that massed market. This is especially the case in the centre of Canada. Calgary has the second largest concentration of head offices in Canada, behind Toronto, and yet we seem to fly over it to Vancouver and not land there or use the potential that it has.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I acknowledged the strength of the relationship. I did not have the chance, though James Maloney was due to join us. He is highly thought of among the Irish community and our officials, and he is somebody who is a very good friend. I did not have the chance to meet him.

I have to say that the current Canadian ambassador to Ireland is an absolutely wonderful force of energy. She is all over the country, as was her predecessor with regard to expanding footprint. That is the case for our own team, Ambassador McKee and his team in Ottawa. Our ambassador-elect, Mr. John Concannon, will bring his energy to the relationship in 2024. I have no immediate plans to go back there but I know the committee is going there. I feel like St. John the Baptist in that I just paved the way for the committee to go over there. However, members will genuinely get a sense of the connections, and a sense of the wish on the part of the Canadians to deepen and build this relationship, not just economically but also culturally. The Deputy is right. We maybe take these things for granted here but for a country to designate an entire month, we need to appreciate that. Then there is all that goes with that. It is not just a designation, there is a lot of time that goes into that, and investment and events. We need to appreciate that and not take it for granted. We need to attend this relationship with every bit that we can.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Minister of State, and I hope he does not end up like St. John the Baptist.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I welcome our guests, and I wish Ms Smyth the best of luck in her new role. The Minister of State has himself well-ensconced at this stage.

What is happening is very interesting, and I am grateful for the opportunity. We are certainly looking forward to going out to Canada. I want to echo the Chair's comments about Deputy Stanton, who has certainly driven this initiative. I am very happy to support it and I am looking forward to getting out.

It is interesting when we talk about the relationship with Canada. In Waterford, we have a very strong relationship with Newfoundland, where they still have small communities out there who speak with Waterford accents. There is a large extended family of Powers out there, so Waterford knows about Canada for quite some time. It is interesting looking at Jim Power's report, when one analyses not the locations but the sectors we are doing business in, how strong it is with regard to the organic and inorganic chemical areas and products. It is a really huge amount of the export that we are doing. It is obvious that we have not even begun to tap other potential in the Canadian market.

From my point of view, I am most interested in the FDI component. There is a huge opportunity there, and that is what I hope to speak people about out there. In Waterford, we have Sun Life, and we are very grateful to have it. It is very progressive Canadian company in Waterford. There is a huge opportunity to build, particularly across the south-east region, in fintech. I hope that is something we can discuss.

I want to come back, if I may, to this issue of CETA, which has come up in this committee a number of times. Deputy O'Reilly highlighted her concerns about the investor courts. I do not think we have got to the end of that discussion. Could the Minister of State indicate why we have to ratify this agreement, considering it is in place to a large degree for the last number of years and is working well? What is the rush for Ireland to be seen to ratify this, and why can we not allow other countries among the 28 to see what their position is going to be about it?

Deputy Dara Calleary

On Deputy Shanahan's first point, I did not meet anybody with a Waterford accent, but I met somebody from Newfoundland with the biggest Donegal accent I have ever heard, and she has never been in Ireland. The connections are strong in Newfoundland in particular.

We have to ratify every trade deal. All trade deals have to be ratified by the Oireachtas. This is an EU-Canada trade deal so that we can have it legislatively underpinned. It is provisionally applied, and we are working it. As I said, I have given the figures on the expansion in opportunities that have arisen during provisional application. The Supreme Court has made its views known, and that view is being assessed by the Attorney General. They have made the decision where it needs to be looked at, and the Attorney General is looking at it at the moment.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

Is there a concern that if Ireland ratifies this agreement, we will not be able to withdraw from it in the future? It would seem that, basically, once ratified, there would be no way for Ireland to decide that it wants to opt out in the future in circumstances where, for instance, we had a bad outing in an investor court. We might decide that this is not for us, but it does not appear that we can actually do that.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Again, I will make the point that the Attorney General is going to make the financial conclusion. Without referring to CETA specifically, we are a small country. We maybe like to think of ourselves as being a bit bigger than we are. We need trade, and we need free and open trade. Trade agreements have been the foundation of our economic success, and our ability to use trade agreements at EU level in particular is extremely significant.

This is no different. We cannot take for granted the kind of expansion we want to discuss when we get out there, or the kind of opportunities for Irish companies. We cannot be à la carte when it comes to trade and trade agreements.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I accept that. There is also a lot of IP domicile in this country and that might possibly be a concern for the tech sector in relation to that. I accept that it is a trade agreement and that Ireland is very small. As we are a small member of the community, we will have only a small amount to say. If other countries are ratifying it, maybe we should, too. Yet, it is notable that we do not need to be the first. There was talk of us being among the first and it was certainly a long road-----

Deputy Dara Calleary

We are by no means the first.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I am still studiously looking. I do not think that is a bad position for Ireland to continue to adopt until we will see how this plays out.

I will go back to the issue of the opportunities for exporters to Canada. As I said, it seems that we are not really tapping the market, although it is great to see that exports have climbed quite dramatically over the last decade. Did the Minister of State get any sense of them? One of the issues that occurred in the last number of years was the difficulties the US J1 visas. Many university students have suddenly decided to switch largely to Canada over the last number of years. Is that having any effect on the ground in terms of the retention of Irish people? The Minister of State noted that Irish people are starting to arrive into high-end management structures in Canada. I suggest that is a bit like the States. It is a very good thing. Is that an area we can try to promote? Is there a way of getting longer-term visas or visa application decisions to stay for people who are going there?

Deputy Dara Calleary

This was cited by a number of community leaders we met, particularly in Vancouver. Vancouver has become a huge attraction for Irish emigrants and Irish students. It is a very welcoming city and there are huge opportunities there. It was cited that there is a much easier system to manage there. We would like to get people home as well. We hope to bring as many people home as we can, and for them to bring back their experience of Canada. I also make the point that the Irish in Canada go back generations. This has been a consistent thing, long before there were issues with J1 visas. There has been consistent travel in both interactions. Indeed, one of the Canadian companies we met in the context of foreign direct investment, FDI, has had a base in Ireland since the mid-1960s, which was even before our EU membership. That shows how, even then when there were not too many international countries investing in Ireland, Canadian companies were doing so.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

It is a natural privilege for other countries to look at Canada in terms of trying to get into the US, particularly if they are in the med-tech area for instance, where it can be hard to get certification in the States. Oftentimes, people try to do it by going into Canada, which might be a cheaper route to market than trying to tackle the US. I hope we can speak to some med-tech providers over there as well. This is an area in which Ireland can grow hugely, based on our numbers. Fair play to the Minister of State for leading the charge. We hope that when we go out there, we will not disgrace ourselves.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Bruton has seven minutes.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I would first like to take the opportunity to congratulate the Minister of State and, in particular, the EI staff in the field who work in Canada and many other places. They have been extraordinary in supporting companies to enter new markets that often have practices they would not be familiar with. They need pathfinders and Enterprise Ireland has been superb at that.

There are a couple of questions in which I am interested. I know Canada continues to have a fair amount of protection around its food and drink sector. I am interested in how successful expansion in the food and drink area has been. As far as I recall, this sector would not be thrown completely open.

My second question relates to the trade figures, which stand out like a sore thumb. While, as the Minister of State will know, Ireland has nearly quadrupled its trade and grew by 31% in this year to date, until this year Canada showed no growth in its trade. Therefore, the balance of trade between the two countries has moved dramatically in favour of Ireland compared to Canada. What is the political mood in Canada around the success of the trade agreement with Europe? More recently, last year, there was a 39% growth in Canada’s trade into Ireland. Is that a sign that there is a pick-up?

I would like to make another comment. I heard what other members said about the investor protection agreement. It is worth saying that the withdrawal from the energy treaty is for completely different reasons to the industry dispute settlement arrangement. It is to do with the fact that that treaty does not recognise the Green Deal and the drive towards net zero. It is for that reason we are withdrawing from the energy treaty. It is not because of the dispute mechanism.

I have a second comment about the dispute mechanism. There may be a situation where a country like Ireland sends a small business and it is in a complicated state. Canada has laws that are much like our own, so it is not a good example of that. Yet, it has multiple provinces. If you find that you have been discriminated against, the advantage of the dispute settlement is that you can go to one point instead of having to pursue your case in multiple different jurisdictions within a country like Canada. It is particularly important in countries that do not have a tradition of settled courts to protect an Irish investor who goes into a country that there is the option of having a dispute settlement. To be fair to the EU, it has bent over backwards to ensure that the approach in the Canadian deal is not like the many criticised approaches that were in place in years gone by. There were other deals, and this is a very different version.

Many of the cases that were quoted are in respect of old treaties. I do not hold the view that we need to be worried about ratifying, with a modern democracy like Canada, a trade agreement that includes an investor dispute settlement arrangement under the sort of judicial oversight that was put in place in the trade agreement with Canada. I just make that point. While I respect Deputy Shanahan in raising this, I do not share the view that this is a big worry for us in any sense. Canada has a settled, good trading arrangement and is a good partner to deal with. Can the Minister of State address the questions?

Deputy Dara Calleary

I do not have specific figures on food and drink, but I know that Canada exported nearly $82 billion worth of agriculture and food products last year. Enterprise Ireland is trying to identify the opportunities that are there for Irish companies to assist some of that market. As I said, we launched a partnership with Moffett engineering systems, which is the new generation of the Moffett family. It is an extraordinary product. It is with a company called Ya YA Foods Corp. in Toronto, which is one of the biggest food providers in Toronto. This provides a solution that is specifically tailored to that company. It employs approximately 60 people in Monaghan. It is growing its footprint to the Canadian food company. We will supply the committee with figures in relation to food.

In relation to the political environment, it is obviously very successful and very positive for Ireland. The Canadian Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, has been here on a number of occasions. We have had ongoing contact and travel over and back. Covid-19 may have gotten in the way of deepening that political relationship. Yet, in terms of trade, there is an appetite there for doing more with Europe, but also doing more with Ireland. Ireland needs to position itself to take that advantage. Deputy Stanton made some interesting proposals about expanding our footprint in specific regions and I will discuss those with Enterprise Ireland. It might also be useful for the committee, once the members return, to come back with their findings on it.

There is political support on both sides for deepening and expanding the relationship. There are opportunities. Genuinely, I want to join with Deputy Bruton in praising the Enterprise Ireland staff. Our country manager, David McCaffrey, and his team over there are really hungry on the part Irish companies. They are throwing themselves into this role to open up opportunities for Irish companies that want to go out there and take advantage of this relationship.

An Cathaoirleach

Does anybody else wish to make a comment?

Deputy Matt Shanahan

To address Deputy Bruton's comments, I was only questioning. The point I was making was not so much to question the whole dispute resolution process but to question why Ireland would be one of the first to ratify this and to ask why we do not let the people with bigger pockets explore all the options before we pile in. That is the point I was making.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Before we conclude, I thank the committee. It was an interesting discussion. I assure members, before they travel out there, of the strength of the relationship, which, as I said, goes back generations, and the ambition on both sides of this relationship in terms of expanding it, not only in business and economically but also culturally and socially. They will get a sense of that strength and ambition from both sides when they get the chance to go out there. They will also be made extraordinarily welcome. They will see first-hand the fantastic team Ireland has across Canada and the work they are doing on all our behalf. I always say it because it has to be said. We ask our diplomats and our agency staff who are abroad to make huge sacrifices for our country. They leave their families and their networks behind to go away and put themselves at the service of Ireland. We are incredibly lucky to have such a fantastic global Ireland team, and members will get to see that for themselves in Canada.

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes our consideration of this matter today. I thank the Minister of State and his officials for assisting the committee in our consideration of this important matter. That concludes the committee's business in public session for today. I now propose that the committee goes into private session to consider other business. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I wish to put on the record that we are looking forward to this trip to Canada and we hope we will have some benefits coming out of that. We will be producing a report on that as well.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.02 a.m. and adjourned at 11.08 a.m. sine die.