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Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Dec 2023

Shoplifting: Discussion

As members will know, if they are participating remotely, they are required to do so from within the Leinster House complex. We do not have any apologies as of yet. The issue of shoplifting and how it affects retailers is what we are going to discuss today. In many of our communities across Ireland, the issue of shoplifting and other forms of retail crime is having a detrimental impact and is causing serious harm to retailers. Theft of goods and the antisocial behaviour faced by many people operating in the retail sector have grown in recent years. There have been calls for greater action to be taken at policing and policy level to address the challenges posed.

I am pleased that we have the opportunity to consider this and other related matters further with the following representatives: from the Convenience Stores and Newsagents Association, CSNA, a fellow Limerick man, Mr. Vincent Jennings, CEO, and Mr. Michael O'Driscoll, a member who operates the Spar on Talbot Street; from the Retail Grocery Dairy and Allied Traders Association, Mr. Colin Fee, president, and Ms Tara Buckley, director general; and, from the Musgrave Group, Ms Julie Dorel, head of communications, and Mr. Noel Dunne, a Centra retailer in Dublin.

Before we start, I will mention, as we always do, parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The opening statements from all three organisations have been circulated to members. To commence our consideration of this matter, I invite Mr. Jennings to make his opening remarks on behalf of the Convenience Stores and Newsagents Association.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

I thank the Chair, the Deputies and the Senators. We welcome the opportunity afforded to us to present on this important topic, mindful that it is not only retailers who are affected by shoplifting and that our employees and customers are also victims of these practices. Shoplifting is not a victimless crime. It can play a large part in reducing choice for communities and it can have long-term debilitating effects on the physical and mental well-being of owners, managers and retail staff. To use the words a superintendent used at a recent briefing attended by myself and others present this morning, shoplifting has reached pandemic levels. In some ways, it was gratifying to hear this acceptance of the level of problem we are experiencing across the retail sector. The invitation from this committee further demonstrates that there is a growing problem that needs urgent attention.

The most worrying aspects of shoplifting today are the accompanying threats, actual violence, obscenities, misogyny and vile racist abuse levelled at owners and staff. There is no doubt but that these abuses are increasing year on year and that they have most certainly become more pronounced after the Covid pandemic. It is impossible to conceive of a more worrying aspect of running a retail business for the majority of our 1,500 members than having to console someone who has been assaulted and abused just for doing his or her job. It may not be considered parliamentary language in these Houses but I cannot think of a more appropriate term for these people than "thugs".

The committee will most likely seek to learn from the various representatives whether we consider there to be a need for additional powers for An Garda Síochána or whether the Department of Justice should consider extra legislation to alleviate the terrors that we and our staff currently experience. The short answer is "No". We do not need more laws but we do need better service from our gardaí and those charged with the responsibility of managing young offenders. We also need our Courts Service and, in particular, our judicial system to pay attention to the trauma occasioned against the victims of these crimes and to seek to ensure that restitution is not only awarded, but enforced.

A number of shopkeepers are aware that those involved in shoplifting progress to other so-called more serious crimes and have commenced a policy of demanding that all reports of shoplifting carried out by juveniles be the subject of a mandatory referral by the investigating garda to the Child and Family Agency, Tusla. The CSNA suggests that the committee recommend that each and every theft and act of abusive behaviour carried out by youths be the subject of a Tusla referral. We also ask the committee to recommend the setting up, possibly on a pilot basis, of a clearing house or sorting office, possibly run by the local chamber of commerce, to help retailers report crime and share evidence with An Garda Síochána, ensuring consistency in reports and supporting evidence such as CCTV.

It will come as no surprise to members of the committee to learn that Garda intelligence has pinpointed that the majority of offences are carried out by a relatively small number of criminals stealing on a regular basis. It is of great concern to our association that attempts by Dublin City Council, the Retail Grocery Dairy and Allied Traders Association, RGDATA, and the CSNA to replicate the very successful approach taken by Belfast retailers and the PSNI were consistently shot down by An Garda Síochána, even when representatives from the Department of Justice saw merit in operating a similar scheme in the Republic. GDPR and different protections afforded to criminals leave a very bitter taste in our mouths. Balance needs to be restored. We are on the front line. There is only one reason that antisocial behaviour orders, ASBOs, are not commonplace throughout Ireland as an added deterrent and that is the unwillingness of An Garda Síochána to manage and oversee them. The CSNA would ask the committee to seek explanations from the Garda as to the reasons that these orders, used extensively in other jurisdictions, have not found favour here.

Our final suggestion to the committee is to accept that our staff are providing an essential service and are fully deserving of protection. A recent change was made to the sentencing available to judges where the victim was a Garda or first responder. The CSNA suggests that our vital and essential employees deserve similar accelerated protections. It should not be necessary to have to debunk suggestions - some of which have surprisingly been made by Members of the Oireachtas, although not, I wish to stress, by anyone here this morning - that the rise in shoplifting is directly related to the increase in the cost of living.

This is not true. It is not basic foodstuffs that are most frequently stolen. Shoplifting by gangs is not carried out by Robin Hood and his merry men. Individuals secreting alcohol on their person or persons literally emptying whole display sections of expensive personal hygiene products or washing machine refills are not robbing to feed a starving family. Anyone suggesting that retailers get what they deserve due to their position in society is guilty of perpetrating a falsehood.

Finally, it is a great concern to our members to note a deterioration in service from the Garda in recent years. We are frequently provided with “lack of resources and personnel" as an explanation for slow and, in some cases, no responses to calls for assistance. One of the most annoying comments made by members of the force is, “Why don’t you get your own security?”, or the more recent and certainly offensive comments have been, “Take it up with your politicians" or "Take it up with Drew Harris."

I am accompanied by CSNA member, Mr. Michael O'Driscoll. He owns a Spar convenience store on Talbot Street in Dublin and his store is less than 100 yd from Store Street Garda station. His business is affected each day by the activities of anti-social thugs. Michael is willing to provide the committee with an account of his frustrating interactions with those who are supposed to protect him, his staff and his customers.

I thank members for their attention. We are willing to expand on these matters as they consider this most important topic.

I thank Mr. Jennings. I invite Ms Buckley to make opening remarks on behalf of the Retail Grocery Dairy and Allied Trades Association.

Ms Tara Buckley

I thank the Chairperson, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to me and the president of the association, Mr. Colin Fee, to talk about this very important topic. As members will know, RGDATA represents family-owned food retailers operating in every community throughout Ireland. Our members provide a vital social, economic and community function within the areas that they are located. Over 3,500 shops provide a focal point for many communities, towns and villages. They play a key role in supporting the vitality and vibrancy of many towns and villages in Ireland. It is no exaggeration to state that there has been an explosion in crimes against retailers in recent years. As I have told this committee previously, our members report that incidents of crime, fraud, abuse, theft and shoplifting happen every day in their stores. There are serial shoplifters who rob them several times a month. There are gangs of feral youth who are completely out of control. These people believe they are untouchable and can abuse who they want, and steal whatever they want, with no consequences. There are also organised gangs who arrive into towns like a plague of locusts and rob to order.

RGDATA and our members were highlighted in a “Prime Time” special some months ago where the shocking and frightening testimony of our members provided the basis for the programme. Retailers spoke of daily incidents of shoplifting, robberies, fraud, and verbal and physical assaults that had been inflicted on them, their families and their staff. While retailers are determined and hardworking people the programme also gave a very clear indication that there is only so much that retailers can withstand, and that the impact of retail crime needs to be taken seriously.

The retailers I represent fear that the retail theft in their stores is not taken seriously because the items taken are often low in value. However, if a store is robbed on a daily basis it mounts up very quickly. Our members report that retail theft costs them at least €40,000, on average, per store in loss of goods, repair of fixtures and fittings, and security and CCTV costs. The amount can be more for some of our members who are in areas where crime is even more prevalent. Collectively, it is a significant amount of money. It is said the overall cost to the retail sector is €1.6 billion. Our members are investing in security and CCTV. All of these costs increase every year so are a huge drain on these businesses and obviously it is a huge threat to local communities.

Earlier this year, we had the spectacle where a chat show on RTÉ made light of robberies from shops. It was a subject of supposed amusement and entertainment. We complained to Coimisiún na Meán but, frustratingly, the commission is not yet set up to take and process complaints against RTÉ. It would be helpful if this committee could make sure that the commission is doing what it should be doing.

Some common themes have emerged in terms of the experiences of our members around shoplifting and retail crime. First, there is the lack of Garda visibility on our main shopping streets. The shopkeepers RGDATA represents have a lot of sympathy for local gardaí because after all they are dealing with the same thuggish, abusive and angry people that we are. Most of our members believe their local gardaí are doing their best in extremely difficult circumstances. However, in some cases we have received complaints from our members about a lack of response from the Garda to calls and complaints from retailers about retail crime. There are also accounts I can cite of retailers who called the Garda to assist when a crime had been committed but the response was exceptionally slow. This was most graphically illustrated recently on the morning after the riots in Dublin when one of my members went in to open up his store in the centre of Dublin at 5.30 a.m. Within minutes he was threatened by a group of youths so he called the Store Street Garda station but got no response. A short time later another group of youths arrived at the shop. The shop owner was so concerned for his safety that he pressed the panic button but, again, there was no response. There are clearly persistent issues concerning the availability of gardaí and these issues need to be addressed urgently. The responsibility for these matters rests with Garda management and the Minister for Justice who should ensure that the Garda are adequately resourced.

RGDATA welcomes the announcement last Monday by the Minister for Justice and the Garda about Operation Tara, which will target serial shoplifters and organised retail theft gangs. We certainly will work with local gardaí to ensure that Operation Tara is successful. The reality is that the scheme will look at serial offenders and organised offenders but will not address a lot of problems that are an issue for us on a daily basis. Also, we need to ensure that the resources are put in place to ensure Operation Tara can be successful.

Second, the courts system does not appear to take retail crime seriously, which is perhaps one of the biggest frustrations for our members. There is huge frustration among retailers who put a lot of time and effort into preparing a case against a shoplifter only for the courts to give the perpetrator the benefit of the Probation Act or let them out on bail. Quite often, our members say they arrive in court and present their case but the shoplifter is let out and back in their shop robbing before they, the owners, even have time to get back to their shop. Our members also believe that there is a real absence of a deterrent for offenders with many complaining there are repeat offenders who attempt to rob their stores shortly after having been caught. There is a persistent problem with youths, some of whom are minors, who have very ingrained criminal habits. Therefore, any deterrent needs to match the crime and be applied consistently by the courts. We would like to see zero tolerance of retail crime and abuse against retail staff, and owners, and custodial sentences for serial offenders.

Physical risk is another serious issue for somebody who owns a shop or works in a shop. Our members and their staff have been hit, kicked, beaten, spat at, stabbed with knives or syringes and shot at in the course of their work. There is a significant level of personal risk when seeking to protect your property. For many that personal risk is at a level where it is causing them to question the wisdom of continuing to expose themselves to this level of risk. Our members also find it extremely difficult to retain and recruit staff because people do not want to work in these abusive and threatening environments.

Fourth, there is a legal risk to our members. There is a persistent fear, among our members, of being sued if they seek to protect themselves or their premises. The threat of an action for defamation or some other spurious legal action is very real for shopkeepers and their staff. We have one member who had been put through the WRC by a customer who took a case because of being asked to wear a mask during the times when the Government had regulated that masks must be worn. Our member successfully defended themselves but it cost them €10,000 in legal fees and this was a cost they cannot afford.

Last, the threat to the viability of businesses from retail theft goes to the very heart of business viability. I have never seen retailers as concerned about their businesses as they are at present. Retail crime is one of the significant issues but I can tell the committee members that there is a slew of new State-imposed costs coming all together in 2024, which is causing huge stress. As I am here before the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment it would be remiss of me not to take this opportunity to tell committee members about that. It is the most significant concern for these business owners in terms of the future of their businesses, and the employment they provide in towns and villages all over the country. At the same time as having that stress about the future of their businesses, business owners have to deal with the persistent threat and practice of stock walking out the door of their premises through theft or robbery. Retail crime, at its core, undermines the motivation of retailers to stay in business and of their staff to stay working in retail. It is hard enough to work long hours and face daily stress and risk without having to witness your turnover and profit being undermined by persistent thieving. One of our members owns a number of convenience stores in Limerick and he told the creators of the "Prime Time" programme that retail crime generates shrinkage and security costs which adds up to over €250,000 annually. Shockingly, the store owner now believes he will have to give his security staff bodycams and stab-proof vests to protect them. So there is no end in sight to it all.

What can be done to address this crisis? First, RGDATA believes specific offences concerning retail crime should be recognised in law to signal that persons robbing retail operations will face stiff sanctions. This should be a deterrent. The new law should specifically address the sanctions arising for persistent offenders and offenders committing retail crimes while on bail, as well as providing statutory protection to retailers to permit them to refuse to allow a person into their shop or to ask a person to leave.

Second, the gaps in Garda resourcing need to be filled urgently. Although all retailers have CCTV, the greatest deterrent to crime is a visible policing presence. Operation Táirge needs to have all the resources required to ensure its success. Tangible steps to address any inadequacy in Garda response times when a retailer seeks urgent intervention need to be taken.

Third, we need a specific response to youth crime and anti-social behaviour. This will require an interdepartmental approach that includes the Departments of Justice, Education, Social Protection and Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The most critical thing is that politicians and the Government need to recognise that many community retailers are, in effect, an endangered species, operating under extremely difficult, expensive and stressful operating and trading conditions. They should recognise their positive contribution to society and the economy, support them and stop imposing additional red-tape burdens and significant additional costs on them. The retail landscape of this country will look very different in the coming years if the Government does not recognise the impact of its actions, as well as its inactions, on local essential retailers, and take steps to support them. We are happy to take any questions the committee may have.

Ms Julie Dorel

I am joined by Noel Dunne, essential retailer. As Ireland’s leading food retailer, wholesale and food service company, Musgrave, together with its retail partners, supports more than 41,000 jobs in more than 1,000 stores, warehouses and offices. Every day, we feed one in three people in Ireland through 15 market-leading food and beverage brands. Through our retail brands SuperValu, Centra and Daybreak, we are at the heart of local communities throughout the country. We partner with independent retailers who, together with their staff, work tirelessly every day to serve friends, neighbours and the wider local community. In many communities around the country, the local SuperValu or Centra is a key employer. In fact, the average SuperValu employs between 80 and 100 people and the average Centra between 25 and 30 people.

The operating environment within the retail sector has changed in many ways in recent years. Worryingly, however, in particular through the past two years, the levels of crime, violence and anti-social behaviour towards staff are at an all-time high. Retailers are experiencing three types of crime, namely, organised gangs, opportunistic criminals and an alarming rise in the number of underage youths who get a kick out of intimidating staff and are totally lacking in fear given there are little or no repercussions for their actions.

Shoplifting sounds innocuous - what harm can it do? It is not a victimless crime. Retail is a low-margin business and stock walking out the door daily has a serious impact on a retailer’s profit for the week – money that pays wages and taxes and keeps the lights on. More than that, there is the impact on staff of being verbally abused, threatened and intimidated. Nobody should come to work and feel threatened and unsafe while doing an honest day’s work. For the individuals, this is terrifying. Retailers are very concerned for the safety and well-being of their staff. They are worried staff will not want to return at a time when retaining and attracting staff is already a challenge. Every day, retailers tell us about an upsurge in theft and anti-social behaviour and the debilitating effect it is having on them and their staff, both emotionally and physically. There could be more than 1,000 issues a week across our network that mainly go unreported. This fully supports survey findings from RGDATA which describe the situation as out of control. My colleague, Mr. Dunne, is a Centra retailer in Dublin who is currently dealing with two to three incidents a day. He can provide the committee with more detail later in proceedings.

In addition to the emotional impact on retail workers, the financial cost and implications associated with retail crime are significant at a time when independent retailers are facing a barrage of increased costs. International events have driven up a range of input prices, especially with energy costs remaining at more than double pre-Covid levels. Domestically, retailers are dealing with the cumulative financial impact of a number of Government measures, including the living wage and sick pay. Further labour costs increases, including pension auto-enrolment, are planned. We are awaiting the publication of the retail costs audit as recommended by the National Competitiveness and Productivity Council to highlight the increased burden faced by retail SMEs. Without greater supports in the current economic climate, independent retailers are increasingly coming under pressure to retain existing employment levels and maintain opening hours. In a highly competitive environment, all additional costs, such as those resulting from theft, increase the threat to the viability of some retailers. Retail crime is not victimless; it has an impact on owners, colleagues, and customers. It is an issue that has been raised and discussed with the Garda on several occasions in the past year, including at the retail forum chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond. We fully appreciate there is no silver bullet for tackling retail crime. We would welcome, however, any steps that can be taken to address the situation and are willing to work with the relevant Departments and trade bodies.

We were appalled by the recent events in Dublin city centre. Some of our stores are still dealing with the fallout. We are asking the Government to step up its efforts to tackle this issue to ensure, as a sector, we can keep retailers, staff and customers safe. The recruitment of more gardaí for front-line policing duties would be welcomed. However, there is a need for a responsive, resourced and dedicated operation by the Garda to tackle assaults on retail workers and theft from shops specifically. I thank members for listening. We are happy to answer questions.

I thank Ms Dorel. All members will agree that the three opening contributions were informative and worthwhile. I will move to members to discuss the issues raised. The first member on our rota is Deputy Louise O'Reilly.

I will pass on my slot as I have to step out for 15 minutes to attend another meeting. I will take it later on if that is acceptable.

Okay. We will move to the Fine Gael slot and Deputy Stanton.

I thank our guests for being here and for their informative and disturbing presentations. I asked colleagues for this meeting - there will be several more on this issue - to be held because we have heard reports of this traumatic, important and damaging issue. The witnesses have highlighted and reinforced that. I thank them for being here.

Ms Buckley and others referred to under-reporting. Is there an estimate of the scale of under-reporting? Has research been undertaken on the cost to businesses – retailers and shopkeepers – of shoplifting and theft that is going on at the moment? Do the witnesses have figures in those regards?

Ms Tara Buckley

We encourage our members to report every incident. If incidents are not reported, statistics will not show the extent of the problem. There was concern that there is no point in reporting. For some of the incidents, particularly those involving youths, there is a feeling that there is no point in reporting because nothing will happen. We encourage our members to report. The incidence is up 14% in the Garda statistics, so the reporting is up, but we are aware that not every incident is reported due to the feeling that doing so is pointless. A retailer who has gone down the route of reporting an incident and creating a case only for nothing to happen or for the person to get bail or whatever may get disillusioned and decide it is not worth doing so again. It will make a big difference if cases that arrive in the courts are treated adequately. Reporting is up 14% in the past year. The Garda knows this is a big issue.

As we already know, that has been an issue over the past number of years and unfortunately it is growing every year. In terms of the cost, that cost we put on is an average cost of approximately €40,000. That included the loss of goods, damage to the store and whatever else would have to be paid for such as CCTV and security. On average the cost is approximately €40,000 for our members. Retail Ireland did a study on the overall cost of retail crime and came out with a figure of €1.6 billion. The items stolen from our stores might be of low value but there are significant amounts of them. The value of the items is higher in the case of jewellery and mobile phone shops in terms of individual robberies.

That cost is obviously made up somewhere else by passing it on to other customers who are not shoplifters. We are probably all paying for this indirectly. This might seem to be a silly question but is there any insurance cover for this kind of stuff that is going on in any instances or is that possible? The witnesses are shaking their heads so, no. I will not go any further down that route. In the presentations, a number of themes came up. One theme mentioned was feral youths coming into shops and who intimidate and maybe physically attack people. That is one particular group. Underage people were also mentioned and Tusla is involved there. The second theme that came up was organised criminals who focus on high-value items. The third theme is, and I have seen some documentation on this, with the advent of scanning machines - somebody of my age would find these things hard to work sometimes - a person goes up to the scanning machine and it does not work and they pop the thing in the bag keep going. I have seen evidence from the UK and other places that these scanning machines actually encourage theft from shops by people who would not even consider this in the first place. There is no way of checking. I know that sometimes shopkeepers are afraid to challenge people because they might be set up to have a false accusation made that can also lead to costs for retailers. Would anyone like to comment on those three issues?

Ms Julie Dorel

To come back to the question on under-reporting, we estimate we have approximately 1,000 incidents per week. Although we do not consolidate the data from our independent retailers centrally we meet through retail forums, councils, and clusters on a regular basis and it is top of the agenda. We consider the 1,000 incidents per week to be quite under-reported. As Ms Buckley mentioned, we encourage all of our independent retailers to report incidents but many consider it to be an investment of time with little outcome so that is a key challenge.

We see a significant rise in underage theft. It is the fearlessness in our stores and the abusive behaviour. I will ask Mr. Dunne to give a bit more of an example of what he has experienced.

Mr. Noel Dunne

I thank the committee for the invitation to come and talk about this rising problem. On the Deputy's question about the number of incidents per day, I am in Dublin city centre and have at least two to three incidents per day, sometimes much more, of petty thieving. Organised gangs of four or five people come in together. One or two of them keep an eye while the other two or three people fill their bags or they talk to the manager or the staff.

The biggest rise is underage 14-year-olds to 16-year-olds on those wretched electric scooters who pull up outside, run in as gangs, grab what they can and run out. They are completely brazen and aloof to any law or wrongdoing. They know, and they say very often, that they cannot be touched, that "You cannot put your hands on me. You cannot stop me." Then they run out the door. They are right, in the present situation, that we cannot. They run out the door with the product and that is it.

Costs were mentioned earlier and we do a stock take every quarter. It costs at the very least €25,000 per year for stock alone. I also have CCTV cameras in the store. I have a security guard for 25 hours per week which costs approximately €35,000. Altogether it costs me €60,000 to €70,000 per year before I put a light on just to protect the stock knowing full well that at least €20,000 to €30,000 of the stock will go out the door anyway - and this is the stock we can account for.

As for my ask today, we need a deterrent. I know the issue of deterrents came up during the three presentations. There is no deterrent and that is getting worse day by day and week by week. The frustration for retailers, certainly in the high-volume areas where we are in town, is that with the rise of what social media can do to crime and how it can fuel crime, lately these guys text one another and say, "Look, this is easy. If you are caught they will not touch you." If we go to court - as I have done many times - they get a slap on the wrist and are back out. So, why not?

I thank Mr. Dunne. He presented that very well. My time is getting short. Does Mr. Jennings want to come in on any of those questions?

Mr. Vincent Jennings

Maybe not me but Mr. O'Driscoll who also is part of the statistics.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

I have a shop in Talbot Street which is a tough area in the city. I probably have five to ten incidents every day where I have to challenge people robbing in my store. What I find very upsetting is the aggression of people now. There seems to be a terrible anger in society in terms of 20-year-olds to 30-year-olds robbing a drink. When I see they have it I ask them for it back they will not give it back to me. They want to fight me for it. They walk out. They push their way out. They have no fear now because there is no deterrent. Nothing happens to anybody anymore. In terms of going to court they are not afraid. There is a new level of aggression in terms of where they are now. My staff are all foreign so I am always afraid as they have no respect for my staff at all. They think they should not be in Ireland so therefore I have to deal with most of these incidents myself. You learn what you can do and what you cannot do.

I thank Mr. O'Driscoll. I travelled to New York a number of years ago and there were similar issues over there. They talked about the broken windows initiative and so forth. I visited community courts. Mr. O'Driscoll mentioned courts. I know some work was done in Ireland quite a while ago on community courts whereby an incident such as shoplifting occurs and the person is apprehended and they are in court the following day. There is no delay. Here it seems to take forever. Very often these people would get a community sanction or whatever but it is dealt with straight away. Is that something Mr. O'Driscoll is aware of? There is a community court in Red Hook in midtown. I know we are probably veering into the justice committee's remit but this has a huge impact on business and is why I wanted to have this hearing today.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

That is a fantastic idea. That is exactly how I see it, this thing of waiting for six months to go to court for something really small and petty. If we have gardaí on the street - one of our big problems is that we do not have enough bodies on the street - we can call a garda for this small incident and if we can get one quickly, he or she can catch the person on the street. The garda can bring them somewhere to get dealt with in a very basic way rather than having to go through the whole justice system where there is a legal aid solicitor who has all the excuses for the judge as to why the person is shoplifting. They have issues with their family and all of that stuff. Nothing ever happens so it is a very basic situation in terms of punishment. They cannot get away with it and there has to be some punishment no matter how small the crime.

The National Crime Council did a report on this issue in 2007 and recommended community courts in Ireland. We did some work in the justice committee a number of years ago as well. Basically it means that somebody is in before the courts the following day and there is no delay whatsoever.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

Yes.

Quite often the person is also interacted with in a different way to prevent them from getting into this. Not just punishment but other work is done to see what is going on. We need police around the place as well.

Will somebody comment on the scanners as a matter of interest? I noticed that some shops in the north of England are now getting rid of them because the scanners were encouraging shoplifting and theft. I am not sure if anyone has any experience of those? The scanners are relatively new.

Mr. Colin Fee

I have three stores in Dundalk and with the rising cost of labour, we looked several times at self-scanning checkouts.

Every time I discussed it with my staff, we said absolutely no way because the amount of stock we would lose would be prohibitive. It is bad enough at the moment when we have people behind the counter and even our off-licence staff now are locked behind a door. If we were to do that, it would just be a free-for-all. We cannot put them in. We are being advised to try to reduce our labour rates because the labour costs are rising all the time. In the next two or three years, we are going to see significant increases. We just cannot do it. We just could not take the risk.

Mr. Fee is saying that the actual losses from the scanners would potentially negate what savings he would make by reducing staff numbers.

Mr. Colin Fee

We believe they would far exceed it. I would like to add to some of the comments made on reporting. It got to a stage where we were not reporting a lot of the thefts. The managers were not reporting a lot of the thefts because there was no action, and it was pointless. Earlier this year, we mandated that every single theft, incident and assault had to be reported, and we have recorded them. We also get the number of the garda and the PULSE identification number. We are analysing it at the moment. We are at it a little over six months now. The response is not great.

I will give the Deputy an example. There was one case where we had a guy and again, it is the same people. There are a handful of people who are creating or causing 50% or 60% of the crime. We had one particular guy who shoplifted us 20 times. We kept reporting it. There were five or six bench warrants out for his arrest because he did not show up in court. He was arrested and taken by two gardaí to a court many miles outside Dundalk. He appeared in front of the judge and the judge gave him bail. That night, he came back in and shoplifted. My staff asked why they were bothering reporting it. To be fair to the gardaí, that was not their fault. The gardaí did what they had to do. He got as far as the court, and he was straight back out.

We are talking about €1.6 billion of a loss. I thank the Chair.

The next person indicating to speak is Senator Sherlock. She has seven minutes.

I thank all the witnesses for taking the time to come in today. I am conscious that it is obviously a very busy time of the year, but it is also timely that they are here, particularly in light of what happened three weeks ago tomorrow in Dublin city centre. That was rioting and looting, but the issue of shoplifting and attacks on shops is not just confined to Dublin. It is right across the country, and it is not a new issue.

I want to pick up on something Mr. O'Driscoll mentioned about his staff. We know that in many shops across the country there are a very high number of migrant staff. We know they are being particularly singled out for threats, intimidation and attack. It is important that Mr. O'Driscoll said that this morning. Mandate Trade Union, which represent many retail workers, has been consistently calling for laws. I am hearing a call from most of the witnesses for a change in the criminal justice system. Mr. Jennings had a line about it, but I think people are ultimately calling for changes to sentencing. It is just to be clear on that.

I really want to ask this morning about the witnesses' engagement with gardaí, particularly those retailers in Dublin because that is where I know the gardaí, but also around the rest of the country. Do retailers have regular conversations at chief superintendent, superintendent or inspector level with their local gardaí? Have gardaí been assigned to retailers, particularly where they experience a high number of incidents? I have worked with other shopkeepers and not necessarily in the inner city. I am thinking of one big meeting in Glasnevin where everybody was up in arms about a number of incidents relating to a shop. Has a business watch scheme ever been offered, particularly to those retailers in the inner city? We have a context now where we have fewer gardaí than before in the inner city. We have a dramatic drop in community policing. Juvenile liaison officers have been at a practical standstill over the past five years. What initiatives has the Garda taken to reach out to retailers to try to prevent crime? There is a conversation about what happens when incidents happen, but it is about the prevention piece or at least working closely with the retailers to reduce the number of incidents. That question is to Mr. Dunne and Mr. O'Driscoll, in particular, but also, of course, to all the witnesses.

Mr. Noel Dunne

My local Garda station is Store Street. We are on Parnell Street. The superintendent there has carried out three or four meetings throughout the year at various times. When we call them, we get the chance to express our feelings and he will tell us what is being done on the ground. Regarding the liaison officer, I think the Senator is referring to community gardaí.

Mr. Noel Dunne

We used to have a community garda who was very active with us a number of years ago. Since Covid, however, that seems to have whittled down a bit. That is not being critical; that is just something that has happened. It is one of the points I think is vital for the city centre, or anywhere, but certainly from where we are. People think of a city centre in a capital city. It is the city centre, and it is a community. We are a community.

Mr. Noel Dunne

We have a huge number of regulars who come in every day. As Ms Dorel said, we trade information between central retailers in Dublin at regional meetings and cluster meetings. There is information to be passed and shared. I would certainly welcome the reintroduction or, indeed, revamp of the community garda and liaison with individual stores. We do know most of the gardaí in the area from coming in and out regularly and meeting them in the Criminal Courts of Justice. I would very much welcome more engagement from the gardaí. I would also reiterate what was said earlier. We need more boots on the ground. I have 14 cameras in the shop, which is great. To have 2,000 sq. ft with 14 cameras seems excessive, but it is definitely necessary. Nothing is better than a uniform walking past my store regularly, however. That is the deterrent we need. I would welcome an opportunity to work with the gardaí in setting that up.

I thank Mr. Dunne. Would Mr. O'Driscoll like to comment?

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

For me, there is not a proper connection in terms of my business and the Garda. If there is an issue, when I meet the superintendent, as I have done before, there is a bit of effort for a while. Gardaí come in and ask if everything is okay and then that just drips again. The problem for me is that there are not gardaí on the street. I believe there needs to be gardaí assigned to a street for a certain period so that they get to know everybody and get to know the street. They are coming and going. They are moved around and they are not consistent to an area. We need that. We need to be able to go out and see who the gardaí are. We need to know. They need to be coming in and talking to us.

The other problem is that because nothing happens in terms of crime, the gardaí, many of whom I have spoken to, are disillusioned. They take small petty cases to court, and nothing happens to those involved. We are left to deal with those situations ourselves. I would only call the gardaí when I have a serious issue or where somebody is potentially coming in or there is an attempted assault. We are forced to deal with simple things ourselves because, really, we are going to get nothing more than that. I might bring a garda in for something that happened and ask if he or she knows that person. Most of the time, the garda will say that he or she does not know the person. Gardaí should know them because we know them. If they are on the street and policing it, for me, that is the problem.

The speed at which we get a garda to come into the store is also a problem because there are not enough gardaí. We could be waiting one hour after reporting an incident or we could be lucky. There could be a garda close by and we could have someone there within five minutes who might be able to deal with that situation. I have noticed it since the riots when there was a lot more focus. I had two or three incidents. Two boys came in one evening with masks on their faces. I knew they were going to hold the till up. They were definitely going to hold it up. They were working their way into it. I challenged one of them and the next thing that happened was that four plain clothes gardaí came in and dragged them out of the shop. They had been following them. That was where the real policing was for me. I had other instances where I have gone out after someone else on the street and the gardaí were on them. They caught them in the act of doing something and were able to arrest them. That really gives us a certain safe feeling in the environment we are in.

I thank Mr. O'Driscoll. It is important to let Mr. Fee speak as well because I do not want to have a total Dublin-centric focus. It is important to get the Dundalk perspective.

Mr. Colin Fee

I was going to add that we quite recently had a meeting. We have a Garda liaison officer. It might have been because we keep emailing and asking what is happening.

In the past we have had meetings with the superintendent but the big thing we need - the gardaí themselves need it - is boots on the ground. There is absolutely no doubt, in Dundalk as well, we need boots on the ground. We need more presence.

The gardaí are demoralised as well. They need the deterrent as much as we need the deterrent. These guys put in a lot of work to get these cases. There is a lot of paperwork involved in taking a case to court and then nothing happens. They get as demoralised as we do. I know two former members of the force, one particularly good member of the force, who left for that reason. In fairness, they need our support. I am not saying they are perfect in any shape or form, but they need a bit of support as well.

The deterrent is the big thing. Boots on the ground and a deterrent is what we need.

I thank Mr. Fee and thank the Chair.

Mr. Jennings wants to come in briefly there.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

Relating to consistency, that is what it requires more than anything else. The Chair would know only too well that what we had in Limerick was good. There were four gardaí on mountain bikes and it worked ever so well. All the retailers knew them. They were on top of issues ever so quick. Then it was pulled. It was a successful programme, but it was pulled.

For many years, the oil industry and the company that operated chose not to report drive-offs in any big way and then they realised they were not doing themselves any favour. Now there is a consistent policy that all drive-offs are reported and it has had an effect. Reporting, most certainly, on a macro- and on a micro-level, really helps. We need to help in the situation here as well.

I thank Mr. Jennings.

I thank everybody for coming in here this morning. They are all busy, but this is an important issue. I thank Deputy Stanton, who has led this at committee level. It is important that we hear the experiences on the ground.

I also want to acknowledge the change, I suppose, the cultural change and also the social change and economic change that is happening in society. It is interesting when we hear the difficulties that the retailers are expressing this morning and the drive that Government has to try to bring social change in terms of the additions that we have had in terms of minimum wage, trying to get to a living wage, auto-enrolment, sick pay, etc. We have pushed that through and yet, at the same time, we are not looking at the effect of what is happening in the economic sense to the retailers' business in terms of justice, policing, etc.

The days of Lugs Branigan, unfortunately, are long over. I had a conversation with the governor of Mountjoy some years ago and he told me, if one drove through Dublin city at that time, he could point out 15 families where 50% of the crime was coming from. All of that seems to be changing and we have to change with it. It is quite obvious that the justice system here is a big problem, our policing and our policing response is a problem, and GDPR is also. The idea that business people, such as Mr. O'Driscoll, have to go out and challenge thugs to try to recover his property and put himself and his staff in physical danger is unacceptable. The question here is, how can we move this conversation along to try to generate some kind of response at Government level?

Our guests outlined that there are three problems: the organised gangs element; the opportunistic crime; and the underage. They are all similar but they are not the same. They obviously need a separate kind of response. The organised gangs is conspiracy, and that is a high-level crime. The Garda probably has detective resources to go after that. In the case of the other two, it is not so. The opportunistic crime and the underage crime is a huge problem and if one goes into the family courts, one will see the difficulties of the gardaí trying to progress anything there, particularly with the underage.

Mr. Jennings stated that he wanted to mimic what Belfast retailers had done and that the retailers felt that there was not support from the Garda Representative Association. Mr. Jennings might elaborate. The idea of ASBOs would be my second question to Mr. Jennings. Third, I would ask Mr. Jennings to address this business watch idea that was brought up by Senator Sherlock. Could Mr. Jennings address those three questions for a minute?

Mr. Vincent Jennings

It was as a result of Assistant Commissioner Paula Hilman directing some senior level gardaí to facilitate Ms Buckley from RGDATA, Dublin city and ourselves to look at what was happening in Belfast. It was information sharing. It was photographs. It was records. It was anybody who was convicted. They had to be convicted. Obviously, one could not talk about suspects and the like, but they were convicted. There was photo-sharing. There was a central clearing office organised by the retail group in Belfast and it worked its way into the rest of Northern Ireland as a result. They facilitated the sharing of photographs with all other retailers in the area and, therefore, one was aware of people, one was aware of what their proclivities were and one was aware of new people. People were told, by the PSNI, "That guy is out of jail now", or otherwise, and to be aware of it. It was a much more collaborative approach.

I would like to think Ms Buckley would back me up on this one. When we brought this to fruition, we got a reasonably warm reception from the Department of Justice. They could see how it could work, they could see how they could amend legislation to bring it about and the like, but the gardaí, to a man, were opposed to it and it died a death. It is amazing how it works perfectly in Northern Ireland but cannot work here, and there is no willingness to bring it about. That is the retail. The sharing of information still is something that we would benefit from but, because at the moment, even though I know that it happens, we cannot go to gardaí with photographs of people and say, "That fella is after stealing from me. Would you make others aware of it?" It works. We saw a situation where a post office was robbed recently, they wanted to share with other post offices in the area and they were told that they cannot do that even though it was to the benefit of society at large.

Relating to the ASBOs, the anti-social behaviour order is something that is used throughout the world, particularly for youngsters who need to have manners put upon them. They are excluded from certain areas. There is at least one shopping centre in north Dublin which uses it and insists upon it. It is fortunate that there is a Garda station close by but it insists upon it being done. It is useful and it works. It excludes people from certain areas once they have met the criteria that they should be barred, because that is one aspect. Once they come into an area, they can cause havoc. Keeping them out of the area is the solution.

I cannot tell Deputy Shanahan anything about the business watch that Senator Sherlock was speaking about. Maybe somebody else can.

Mr. Dunne might like to come in there because he expressed an interest in it.

Mr. Noel Dunne

I would certainly welcome anything that would help and would be a deterrent. Certainly, on the third issue, the youths, say, 14-year-olds to 17-year-olds, as I explained earlier, there is absolutely nothing we retailers can do. Like the gentleman who spoke earlier, I have gone out after people. My staff have gone after people.

The youths on these scooters are an absolute nightmare and we need to have something where they are deterred from coming into an area. I read recently about another jurisdiction where the police were allowed to escort these people home, back to their houses and back to their parents. We need something like that. Anything that would be a deterrent would be welcome so that when these guys come into town and they want to do something like this, they would ask themselves if they are caught what could happen to them whereas at the moment what they say is if they are caught nothing will happen to them and why would they not try it. I would welcome any deterrent whatsoever, be it barring, fines or being brought back home. I would welcome anything that would help us to curb what is happening at the moment and see if it develops

What is happening at the moment, as I said earlier, is that it is increasing because there is no deterrent. If there is a deterrent put in place, let us see would it decrease over time with deterrence. Of course, it would.

That is what we are here for today. We need a line drawn in the sand now that we will put deterrents in place. For each of these groups, whether they be youths, the opportunists or the gangs, we must have a deterrent in place. As the Deputy so rightly said earlier on, it will be a different approach to each of them.

We need to take action now. Deputy Shanahan spoke about the rising costs of doing business in Ireland, not in Dublin city but everywhere, with the minimum wage and the auto-enrolment coming through.

This is another huge cost on top of what we will face in 2024. I know it sounds dramatic but Ms Buckley spoke earlier about the chances of small retailers becoming defunct and being gone. That is a real possibility. Now that we are in a room together, we have an opportunity to do something. I ask the committee to please help us put any deterrent it can in place for these groups.

It would be helpful if the witnesses could identify what legislation was enacted or changed in the North of Ireland to facilitate what the Belfast retailers are doing.

I do not expect the witnesses to have that to hand. They might come back to us on that.

I apologise that I had to step out briefly. If I am asking questions and I am repeating what was asked earlier, I apologise for that. My first questions are addressed to the two retailers from Dublin. I spoke to people who work in Dublin city centre in the immediate aftermath of the incidents on 23 November. To a man and a woman, they told me they were not entirely surprised by what happened. It had been developing over a period of time there was a sinister culture emerging. Last summer, I met people who work in the city centre and they told me about difficulties with recruiting and with people literally walking away because they could not cope, not just while going to and coming from work but also in work which is at a completely different level. Were the retailers surprised by what happened? Was it a shock to them or did they feel like it was coming?

Mr. Noel Dunne

What happened was not a surprise to me. What we are most concerned about is the aftermath of it. As the Deputy rightly said, we have always had a certain element of our non-Irish staff being racially abused as they try to stop somebody going out of the shop with product. That has always been the case and it is more so in recent times. What was more worrying for me was the aftermath of the horrible events. We had four staff who were afraid to come into work the next day. Those events were on a Thursday. On Friday, Saturday and Sunday we were very badly staffed. Obviously, we were very quiet as well because there was nobody in the city centre for Black Friday which should have been one of our busiest weekends here. Our trade was down by 50% as was everybody else's. More concerning was the staff and their welfare. They did not come into work. Since then, they have had that air of looking over their shoulder.

We have had no real issue recently, in the last year or so. We have always had a problem with getting people to work in the city centre. Ironically in the last year we have been very lucky in getting people to work. As I said earlier, while the Deputy was out, we have a lot of non-Irish staff who are students and live in the area and go to school in the area. They are afraid to come into work not only after that incident but just being in a store where people are coming in robbing. They are afraid if they talk to somebody or say something to them that the racial card will be played and it is extremely difficult. It is not so much us employing staff, but staff retention is a major issue.

That was also relayed to me during the summer.

Mr. Noel Dunne

Retention is the problem in the city centre. If those students move out of town or do not want to work in town, we are in real trouble. That is tied into what we said earlier about having gardaí on the ground, getting people to feel safe, not only staff but also customers. Half of my staff are non-Irish and you can see the difference in them.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

In July the American tourist was assaulted about 20 yd from my store. I actually sent an email to the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, on that. I said there was nothing surprising about someone being assaulted because it is something we regularly deal with around the area. I told her there was a complete change and a foreboding in the city centre. There was a fear that something was building. I said that something very serious would happen. What happened on Thursday, 23 November was very prophetic. I sent another email on Thursday relating back to that previous email warning that I saw complete lawlessness developing particularly since the Covid pandemic and that came to pass. As far as I was concerned, I was not surprised by those riots.

That backs up what the workers were telling me. When I met them on a number of occasions, I got the same feedback. It is not as people might expect going to and coming from work; it is actually while they are it work. I will continue on that for all of our guests. The incidents that are described are on a scale. I have spoken to retailers who have talked about hammer attacks. There is everything from someone simply shouting a swear word and walking out right up to very serious levels of violence. The low-level ones we never hear about because very often retailers tell me they do not report to the Garda because it is not necessarily a huge incident. However, it is very traumatising and disturbing for staff, owners and everyone working there. What types of incidents are the retailers dealing with on a regular basis?

Mr. Noel Dunne

We have two to three incidents every day. Thankfully, very few are at the higher end, the violent end. We certainly get abuse, verbal abuse, racial abuse and sexual abuse. It has more to do with the consistency of these incidents. As the Deputy said, the small incidents are not being reported. It is the consistency of these small incidents all the time. We cannot look away from the fact that these small incidents are the big problem. It is every single day. It is constant. It is on every single staff member's mind. It is on my mind every single day. Once the automatic doors on the shop open, the customer comes in. The first thing people do is have a look to see if they look okay or if we might have a problem. I get a phone call or a text every night from the manager giving me the read for the day. My first question is, "Is everything okay?"

That is more constant and continual.

Mr. Noel Dunne

I do not want to diminish the bigger incidents which are awful. However, they are the ones where we press the panic button and gardaí come to handle it. Because of the numbers we have coming through the shop, it is the smaller incidents, the petty thieving and the constant feeling of what might happen next. That is what turns staff off. That is where staff say, "I've had enough of this. I'm ready to go."

I am conscious that our guests from RGDATA have not spoken yet.

Mr. Colin Fee

I have three sites in Dundalk. One of them is much more troublesome than the others. We find it very hard to fill the roster in that site. We have had people who have handed in their notice and we moved them to another site and they have stayed with us. It is because of constantly being threatened and being abused every day. I said earlier that we report absolutely everything. We have staff who are being threatened and are being told that they will be got at on their way home. Then we end up having to drive them home ourselves because the threat is always there.

There is one particular guy who started at 14 or 15. He did us 100 times and that was just our shop. There was nothing that could be done because he was under 16. The older he got the more aggressive and vicious he became. He ended up pulling a knife on one of our staff on two occasions. He committed a crime somewhere else and he is now in Oberstown. However, why did it take so long? We were able to tell the Garda that this guy was going to kill somebody one of these days. Why did it take so long? With somebody under 16 the Garda's hands are tied.

Everybody's hands are tied and nothing can be done about them. As Mr. Jennings said in his opening statement, it starts off at the level described and gets progressively worse. The guy I have mentioned will end up-----

Unfortunately, but I hope not.

Mr. Colin Fee

He is not going to come out and stop; he will keep going. It just gets worse.

Ms Tara Buckley

That is why we are so insistent that zero tolerance for this type of crime would be doing good for the community. A tiny minority are creating all this drama, but the reality is that they go on. Our members see them progressing to far more serious and aggressive behaviour. Verbal abuse and racism become a knife, gun or some other type of weapon. If we could nip it in the bud, it would be help.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

I had a incident about three weeks ago. Four youths, probably in their early 20s, came in on Sunday morning at 10.30 a.m., wanted drink and were going to take it. One boy robbed three bottles of wine and ran out. One of the other boys got two big crates of beer. I challenged the boy with the beer. There were two boys with him. One of them kicked me in the side and the other pushed me so they guy with the beer could get out. The guy who got the wine and who had gone out ran back in with the three bottles and was swinging them, so I had to let the guy out. We pressed the panic button and it took eight minutes for the gardaí to come to the shop. That might not sound long but it is.

What distance did they have to travel?

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

Only 300 yd. However, in fairness to the gardaí, they got the guy who took the wine. He has been charged. I have not heard anything back on that. The Garda expects him to plead guilty. The serious aspect is where you do not know your level and have to decide whether to let the offenders go. That is the problem.

Mr. Jennings mentioned in his presentation that his members are sometimes asked why they do not get their own security. I have engaged with security officers and their representatives. I understand security means an additional cost to CSNA members. I get that. Also, security firms are having difficulty recruiting people who want to be the first or last line of defence in a retail operation in an area where there might be a high incidence of the behaviour in question. What is the CSNA's members' view on hiring security personnel? Is it too expensive? Even if they had the money, would they be able to get the staff?

Mr. Vincent Jennings

You could not have security for all the hours you are open, and you can be absolutely sure that it is in the hours you do not have it that the lads will come along. They are so quick to jump in.

On the subject of progressing, the Chair and I come from the same city and both know how people in certain families, who are nearly all locked up now, began their lives. They began when people allowed them to do what they wanted and did not stop them. That is the problem. It progresses from one thing to another and the individuals end up committing murder as a result. This happens. It has got to be nipped in the bud at the earliest stages.

There is a lot to be said for youth diversion, investment and community gardaí to deal with activity that is not the high-level activity that requires everybody to jump into a squad car and have a major investigation. It requires personnel, which is the difficulty.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

When shoppers see gardaí on the streets questioning people about what they are doing and searching them, they feel much safer. Bodies of gardaí make everything look so much safer.

There's definitely a theme emerging. Could I get an answer on the security staff?

Mr. Noel Dunne

I have security guards from 5 o'clock until 10 o'clock each day because I cannot afford to have them all day long. Just as Mr. Jennings said, the lads get to know very quickly that they need to be in before 5 p.m., before the security guard is in place.

On the matter of boots on the ground, since the horrible events of Thursday two weeks ago there have been more gardaí, and it is no coincidence that there has been a lower crime rate in my store as a consequence. We have had police walking by the store much more regularly. We are even busier because we are starting to see confidence in the town again. While there might have been one or two incidents in my store, rather than three, in the past ten days, the staff notice that it is a lot nicer. It is awful when staff say, "It is actually nicer to work here today."

By comparison with the alternative. The key point is that there is a need to continue to deploy the additional personnel.

Mr. Noel Dunne

Additional boots on the ground.

The fear that this will end on 1 January is the main thing.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

I probably have had seven or eight incidents in the past three weeks on foot of which gardaí came in to look at the CCTV footage. It was burned for them and they went off with it, but nobody came back to say whether the culprits were found or were spoken to. You never hear anything again unless you are asked to go to court. It dies the minute the gardaí walk out onto the street. You will have shown them something in the hope they will come back and say they know the offenders, have picked them up or are still trying to find out who they are. The gardaí, through their system, can let each other know about incidents. They are always able to identify the people. They might be in a different jurisdiction, but, through the PULSE system, other gardaí can be informed. That is how it should be possible to identify people, even if they are perpetrating petty crimes.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

That is where the suggestion to have a central clearinghouse or sorting house comes in. With the shift patterns of gardaí, Michael might ring but then be off for the next three days. If there were a co-ordinating office, it would chase up cases rather than leaving it to the individual retailers. It could work and should be considered, including for assembling evidence.

Mr. Colin Fee

We had security for about six years for the evening shift on the troublesome site. Eventually, we stopped it, purely because of the cost. The security guards from the third-party contractor were afraid. There were a couple of robberies in which they said there was no way they would take on the offender. Therefore, it was pointless having them. We do take on security for leaving certificate nights, busy nights and festivals but the cost is an issue. The security guards were afraid.

Ms Julie Dorel

On security, we estimate expenditure of an additional €1,000 per week on additional security hours. This is third-party security in some instances but there may be more hours for floor staff. That is a significant increase. That is when we can get third-party security businesses to work with us. This is a nationwide trend.

From talking to people in the security industry, I know it is proving difficult for them to recruit. Women and migrant workers are particularly difficult to recruit. I would say this is replicated in Ms Dorel's business.

Ms Julie Dorel

Yes.

Mr. Colin Fee

Many gardaí frequented one of our sites just because of its position. We gave gardaí a discount on coffee at the troublesome site and our sales dropped. However, the fact that the gardaí started to frequent the shop resulted in a drop in crime. That was only in the last four weeks.

Garda figures show 30,000 thefts from shops per year. This is a very significant increase but obviously Covid is distorting it. It is completely under-representative of what the delegates are referring to. They say they have perhaps 500 or 600 thefts each. There are three delegates here but, between the three of them, they account for nearly one tenth of the Garda figure. Therefore, there is considerable under-reporting. It is said 50% of the incidents are detected.

That is a serious issue. If for whatever reason it is not being reported it definitely downplays its public profile. We need to find some way of addressing that. That is one question.

The second question relates to Operation Táirge, which has been put together during the week. It looks like a pretty well-designed programme. They are talking about enhanced engagement with high-risk outlets - which I presume include those of the representatives here today - bringing to bear the proceeds of crime, supporting reporting, pursuing black market outlets, pursuing intelligence sharing, and deterrents for those involved. They are hitting all of the themes the witnesses have raised here. What engagement have the representatives had to date with the unit there, which is the organised retail crime group co-ordinating within An Garda Síochána? They have come up with this. Have the witnesses been actively engaged in the design of this and do the witnesses see many gaps in what the group is doing? Clearly it is aiming at the more professional end than the youngsters or the opportunistic ones. It would give us an understanding of how the programme currently going into operation is interacting with the representatives' experience.

The witnesses keep coming back to the outcomes for detection . I see that everyone is frustrated that nothing happens. Deputy Shanahan has left the room but I am interested in how that operation worked in north Dublin where retailers succeeded in barring people. What did they use and what were the ingredients that made this a success? Was it within existing law? Does it need new law to make it more prevalent? Perhaps we could just get a handle on that. We do seem to be moving. The Garda has recognised the need to do much in this area. It would be a shame if we do not get our ducks in a line and if the witnesses' needs do not meet their new resourcing commitments. I would like to get a response from the witnesses on those two questions.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

The 30,000 number is obviously a low figure but it comes about as a result of people's frustration. Mr. O'Driscoll is not going to give his date of birth on each occasion that somebody comes in to take a statement. He has not got the time. That whole process is required to be much quicker. It was suggested by Deputy Stanton there would be night courts or courts the following day. That level of quick justice is a much better thing. If we could see that things worked in that regard it would be the case that we would have much more faith in it rather than the whole idea of sending somebody down to the courts for it to be adjourned, having to go through that three times and then finally find the prosecuting garda is not there that day. The person walks off scot-free and he or she is back in the shop before we get back. This is where we need to have faith in the system.

I would love to say that Operation Táirge is going to work. Definitely on the organised criminal end of things it seems to meet all the objectives but that is only one part of our problem. The other problem is the opportunistic thief and the young thief. There is nothing in Operation Táirge that actually is going to deal with those people. Those people are really causing mayhem for the convenience sector. The Deputy knows all about e-scooters and mopeds going around Limerick. It is happening everywhere. Those gangs are really lawless beyond belief. They need to be tackled. I believe Táirge is a result of a very strong collaborative effort with retailers, with An Garda Síochána, and with the Department of Justice. It has every ability to actually work but this still leaves the other elements.

Mr. Noel Dunne

The Deputy asked why incidents are not being reported, with only 30,000 incidents with the Garda. In my experience, and to reiterate what Mr. Jennings has said, it is the frustration from retailers at having to go to court for everything. I have two or three incidents a day. I could not possibly report and prosecute two or three people a day given that every time I must go to court. I have a very good friend who is a barrister and I joke and say I have been in-----

Is it about intelligence sharing and maybe moving to barring these people from certain areas? Would that not then justify it if the retailer knew these frequent offenders were-----

Mr. Noel Dunne

Absolutely. I was getting to that. I very much welcome that we can get areas where people could be barred from. I absolutely welcome anything that helps. Of course that would help but the point is to get it to act as a deterrent. When we go to court we must see that the person in court is going to have some sort of sanction. Anecdotally, I was in court with one gentleman who I had caught robbing. He was up on the stand and the garda read out that this was his 95th appearance on shoplifting. I presumed in my naivete - a number of years ago - that this was going to be a big sanction. He walked out of the court with me with nothing but a hand slap. It is a half a day for me to go to court. If I go at 10 a.m. I must wait to be called. How can we go to court with every single incident? All of this notwithstanding, if I went to court and I knew there was a possibility of the person being sorted out and that there was going to be a sanction this would help down the line as I would go to court with everybody. We would see a huge rise in the numbers of incidents reported to the Garda immediately.

I welcome Operation Táirge. It is really good they are tackling organised crime but as Mr. Jennings has said, this will not stop what we are here to discuss today, which is the petty thieving from the small stores.

Has that engagement started with the witness as a high-risk store?

Mr. Noel Dunne

With Táirge?

They are saying there will be engagement with high-risk undertakings as key.

Mr. Noel Dunne

No.

Ms Tara Buckley

What has happened is interaction with the likes of mobile phone stores and big jewellers. They are looking at the organised robbery of high wealth things and where those organised crimes would go. We are incidental because they still come into the town and rob us as well. Because we are low margin businesses what they take when they walk out the door is high worth to us. In the scheme of their robbing it may not be the most expensive stuff they rob but we are hoping that with this crime the operation will work. We will co-operate with the operation but we believe that something else needs to be done about the more incidental robberies and the young thieves.

Before my time runs out do the witnesses want to comment on how that north Dublin initiative is exercising-----

Mr. Vincent Jennings

That is in Northern Ireland. It is in Belfast.

There was a reference to a shopping centre in north Dublin as well.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

Yes. I beg your pardon. That is the ASBO. The ASBO is done in north Dublin. It is the anti-social behaviour order. This is insisted upon by the management of this north Dublin facility. Deputy O'Reilly is aware of the shop.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

It is the insistence of the management to get it done.

Is that not something Mr. Jennings' association members could-----

Mr. Vincent Jennings

We would love it.

What does it take to make it happen?

Mr. Vincent Jennings

A willingness by the Garda to actually do it. That is all it is. The law is there.

Maybe we should contact those running Operation Táirge to ensure this becomes part of it.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

Yes, a suite of measures is required.

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. I thought that the most interesting thing was what Mr. Jennings said a few minutes ago about how the development of an individual can start at shoplifting and can go on, through years of being let off with it, to a much more serious crime event. In this building we sometimes hear from individuals - particularly in the Seanad - who would talk about crimes such as shoplifting and others and they say these are by individuals in areas of deprivation, that they need to be supported and that locking them up is not the answer and punishment is not the answer because they need support. From the witnesses' view on the ground what is their response to that? More important, how do the representatives feel when people in this building say that punishment is not the answer?

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

I do not agree with that. Obviously there are people who come from disadvantaged areas.

Ultimately, however, you are talking about people coming in and being very aggressive to us and we have done nothing wrong to them. We are just trying to run a business. We are trying to manage our businesses and protect our staff. All we want to do is it make a living. The idea that it is not for us but for a different body of people to deal with. What we are dealing with is people robbing. There has to be punishment, whatever that punishment is, because there is no other means by which to improve the situation.

These people are saying they are from their community and understand it, or they may be from a minority group. People should not be let off simply because of their background or where they grew up, family circumstances or anything like that. A crime is a crime.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

For me, it is a crime. In the courts, however, the solicitors who are defending these people have all those answers: where they have come from; what happened to them; and different situations in their families that have created these problems. Nothing ever happens. They still do the same thing over and over again. Unfortunately, for me it passes through generations of families. They grow up, and their parents did the same thing. In some way, that has to be dealt with. There are other situations where people genuinely have social issues. Social services should know about that and deal with those situations. There should be communication with the gardaí about who they are and how they can be helped. There are both sides to it.

Ms Julie Dorel

Many of our independent retailers and colleagues live and work and are from those same areas.

Exactly. And they are the ones being victimised.

Ms Tara Buckley

That is why we have suggested that what is required is some type of interdepartmental group to look at this. We understand that it has to be addressed from an educational, social welfare, justice and enterprise perspective. For the vast majority of our members operating shops in these communities or in any other community, 99.9% of people are supportive customers who want the shop to be there and are fine. It is a tiny minority but, unfortunately, the grief that tiny minority causes is significant.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

It is really important that we, as representatives of the business community, stand up for the people who work in our stores, particularly those who are thousands of miles away from their homelands and are being, embarrassingly for us, subjected to the most vile abuse. That is not the Ireland we want to live in but it is an Ireland in which direction we are going unless we all collectively call it out.

Mr. Dunne was talking about his shops in different areas and challenges he faces. I was talking to one of his managers in a shop in Tipperary. where I am from. One of Mr. Dunne's shops in Tipperary has been robbed three times since this meeting started.

Mr. Noel Dunne

One of the Centra stores.

Mr. Noel Dunne

We are all independent retailers.

One of the independent stores has been robbed three times since this meeting started.

Mr. Noel Dunne

Right.

That just gives an idea.

Mr. Noel Dunne

Absolutely.

I am not making it up. This would be in a rural town in Tipperary which would not be perceived as being very socially deprived or a place where a lot of crime occurs. It is a very good town. It has been robbed three times and its employees are victims.

Mr. Noel Dunne

That does not surprise me.

Is Mr. Dunne finding what I find in Tipperary, namely, that shops have different relationships with different Garda stations? There could be a Garda station covering one area of Tipperary where the relationship is really good and the gardaí arrive quickly. However, there could be another place in County Tipperary where the gardaí in the station do not come out at all.

Mr. Noel Dunne

I am in Parnell Street. In our area, we are assigned to Store Street and we only deal with Store Street. That is who we call if there is a problem. They are the people who liaise with us. As I said earlier, the gardaí in Store Street respond. We have waited an hour or an hour and a half some times for gardaí to come. There are reasons for that which relate mainly to resources. Gardaí are very like ourselves; they are the people in the job and they are frustrated. They come to investigate an incident, take the details and go to court. I am repeating myself, but there is nothing done. It starts at the top. If there was a sanction, then gardaí would be more invested in tackling this crime. Of course they would.

We heard earlier about gardaí leaving the force. We have heard that being reported, and very much so lately. That happens if there is no end result and they are demoralised about bringing people to court, as a we are. If you get it right at the very top, the positivity will filter all the way down and not only to gardaí but also to the owners and staff and the perpetrators, who will know, when they walk into a store, that there will be consequences. The first thing they will think of is that if they do something, X, Y and Z will happen. In other words, I will catch them. The guards will arrive and make an arrest and they will be in court tomorrow or the next day, and a sanction will be put in place if they are repeat offenders.

To return to what the Senator said earlier about socially deprived areas, I am right in the heart of a very socially deprived area in Parnell Street. Some 95% of my customers are absolutely fantastic. We meet them every day. It is a small minority that causes trouble. This is a problem that can be handled if the sanctions at the very top are sufficient to the crime. Then we would see that filtering all the way down. I would be more enthusiastic as would staff and the gardaí. The only people who will not be more enthusiastic will be the guy on the electric scooter. That is what we want.

Ms Buckley said the retail landscape of this country will look very different in coming years if the Government does not recognise the impact of its actions. What did she mean?

Ms Tara Buckley

To be honest, with all the different measures the Government is introducing, in 2024 we will be facing what we believe will be a cost of €4,200 per employee just for employment of-----

Why does Ms Buckley raise that in the context of shoplifting?

Ms Tara Buckley

Because when we ask our members what are the biggest issues for them, shoplifting is in the top three. The cost of doing business is-----

Ms Buckely is hardly suggesting that we should eliminate these to reduce costs because shoplifting is expensive.

Ms Tara Buckley

No. What I am saying is -----

And she is hardly suggesting that employees in the sector should not get a wage increase, especially when they are working in very difficult circumstances. What Ms Buckley is talking about is a wage increase and sick pay. Ireland is one of only two countries that does not have sick pay. I recognise entirely the cost involved, but I am just saying that I am not sure that this is the day to identify that as an aspect of the challenge we have with shoplifting. We need to tackle shoplifting but also support the employees that the retailers have.

Ms Tara Buckley

You need to tackle shoplifting, the cost of banking, the cost of insurance and the cost of doing business. We understand that we are facing into bills for reverse vending machines and other types of sustainability and decarbonisation. We understand these are good things to do, and we have to accept that. We are very green and good employers.

Albeit that they are challenging, you would support those measures that were brought in to support employees wages and sick pay. These were all done in consultation with these groups. I recognise that it is challenging but I do not think, when we talk about how we will fix the problem of costs and what shoplifting is costing shops every year, that we should say that how we should reduce costs is to go back on what we agreed in the budget for employees.

Ms Tara Buckley

No, what we are talking about the importance of dealing with the high costs of doing business in this country. We have been asking people to deal with this for a long time and whether the Government can address some of the high costs of doing business. Retail theft is one of those reasons why there is a high cost of doing business. You have to accept that the future of these business lies in their ability to pay their bills.

The point I am making is that shoplifting and crime places a serious cost on businesses. The solution to that is not lowering the wages of employees.

Ms Tara Buckley

No. We do not want the Government to lower the wages of employees. What we want it to do is look at how it will support those viable businesses to bring in all these things at the same time.

I thank Ms Buckley. We have got slightly distracted from the topic there but it was a good point made by Ms Buckley. She has to defend her interests and it was a fair point made by Senator Ahearn.

I would not have said anything had it not been raised.

It was not exactly on the agenda, but fair play to Ms Buckley because she got it on the agenda and she got to speak on it.

That is the end of round one.

Before we move on, I want to reference a Garda operation in my area, Operation Meirle, whereby two gardaí are walking around non-stop on key city streets. It started on 1 December and will continue until 31 December. It is early yet, but the feedback has been exceptionally positive. The levels of shoplifting have dropped dramatically. I hope this will continue. The gardaí involved have been diverted from the courts, which are not sitting. This is how we were able to get two additional gardaí. There were not two gardaí sitting around doing nothing. At the end of December, when the courts are sitting again, this operation will finish. It is good to have it in place.

I thank witnesses for all the information they have given us so far. I want to go back to the issue of recruitment and retention. I touched on it earlier. This is something that been raised with me a great deal. I would like the responses to be brief because I do not have as much time as in the first round. I would like a picture of what it is like with regard to staff turnover. We are aware of the additional costs that a high turnover of staff places on a business. Are there issues or are there specific groups of workers whom the witnesses are finding it tough to recruit? My information is that women and migrant workers are finding it harder and harder to be able to put up with what people are doing. Is this also the experience of the witnesses?

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

I have no problem with staff at present. Generally what happens is that I take on somebody and when they leave they recommend somebody else. It is a progression of people coming over and helping each other. My staffing situation is that people are coming here for a year. They do not see our business as a career in any form. People work in the bigger supermarkets as a career and it is a different environment. For us staff stay for a year and then move on. The problem is that people are not experienced. When there are problems in a shop, newer staff do not recognise them. This is the negative of people moving on. With regard to getting people, I have no problem at present. However, Irish people do not come to me looking for a job.

Mr. Colin Fee

Three or four people have left this year from one site we have. We were able to redeploy one of them, who agreed to stay as long as they were put on the other site. When we interview we advertise for all the shops and when we get down to the question as to which shop someone is going to one out of every two people says they do not want to go to the shop in Castletown because the area has a reputation. It is hard enough where we are to get staff and this is an extra complexity.

Mr. Noel Dunne

It varies. We have a bit of both in our store. Some people are very interested in a career in retail. Certainly my managers and supervisors have visions of being retailers themselves in future, which is great. We also have a large number of non-national staff who are studying in the area. They find it most difficult to come in part-time for four or five hours a day and see this sort of behaviour in the store. It is difficult. We do not have a difficulty with recruiting. We are very lucky. People want to come and work at the Centra on Parnell Street, which is brilliant. The problem is retention. The store is grand. It is a nice store and it works very well, but the problem is what comes in when the door opens. The main difficulty is retaining staff.

There are people who can switch off and there are people who cannot. We have to understand this. It is very difficult. I was trying to explain earlier that it is the constancy that is the difficulty.

I want to ask about the supports offered to people, including to the witnesses. All of these incidents, whether it is a combination of a lot of minor incidents or one big one, are all traumatic. All the money in the world would not pay for what some people have to deal with on a daily basis. In the aftermath of a traumatic incident what is done? In my previous work I represented healthcare workers, who had system in place for debriefing. Of course the challenge is having enough staff to do what is written in the protocol. What do the witnesses do to support themselves and keep themselves well, mentally as much as anything else, and for their staff? What supports are there? What happens in the immediate aftermath?

Mr. Vincent Jennings

We have an insurance policy that provides for counselling for staff if they have been subjected to any level of trauma. Is it good enough? We do not know but it is there and it is made use of. It is also very important to understand that Covid has changed the attitude of so many people in so many different ways. People who previously would have considered working in a retail environment now have a different attitude to it and to working in hospitality. Their parents may be sheltering them or diverting them away. The pool is smaller from a recruitment end of things. Retention is obviously down to what is provided in the store and how good it is. We cannot factor in the possibility of these gobdaws coming in on their e-scooters and causing mayhem and abuse. It is a challenge and there is no doubt about it. We are in the post-Covid period. I do not know at what stage we will become normal again.

Or, indeed, what is normal.

Mr. Colin Fee

It depends on the severity. For severe events we give people time off first and foremost and we keep in touch with them on a daily basis. We offer counselling if there has been a knife or a gun attack. Because they are victims of crime, the Garda would also be in touch with them. On the lower level stuff and consistent harassment, we talk to them. We have a HR person people can go to. Very often, we move people from the site where they are having the trouble and redeploy them. Then we have to try to backfill the position. It depends on the staff member. Some people say not to worry about it and they are thick skinned but it does bother other people and we move them to another site.

Even for people with a very thick skin, it will get in on them. The question was twofold. It related to the people working with the witnesses but also for the witnesses themselves. They are getting it in the neck as well.

Mr. Colin Fee

Nobody has thicker skin than me-----

You probably need it.

Mr. Colin Fee

-----but there are times when I ask myself what I am doing this for. In the past two or three years, I have been asking myself more and more what am I at.

Mr. Noel Dunne

It is about communication. We speak to the staff all the time and reassure them. We ask them what they think we can do to make it easier for them and whether there is anything we can provide. Centra provided a counselling line on the Friday morning, which was great. People could phone if they wanted to speak to somebody, which was excellent. It is about communication in the store and what I as an owner can do to make it any better. Perhaps we can rearrange a store. People have come up with all sorts of ideas whereby they can see the store better or see something happening faster. We have done all of this. It is about communication. As Deputy O'Reilly said, it is so difficult. If a member of staff is 3,000 miles away from home how do we talk to them? It is very difficult.

I thank the witnesses very much. This is very interesting. Earlier, they spoke about the escalation from very small stuff to people perhaps getting injured or killed. I draw attention to the youth justice strategy, which I put together when I was in the Department of Justice. It is up and running, and I want to make the witnesses aware that it is there specifically to stop young people from becoming involved in crime initially.

I will also ask about the retail forum. Some of the witnesses might be members of that. Has this issue come up at all at the retail forum? Is it possible for it to come up at that forum? I note that there is a national retail crime strategy group in the UK. Is there anything like that here? Should we have such a group? Mr. Jennings mentioned the sharing of information. There does not seem to be a sharing of information and data between the police, business and public in the UK, which he suggested is happening in Belfast. We might be able to do something on that. I listened when Mr. Jennings talked about that. It is very important.

Professor Emmeline Taylor of the University of London has come up with a term, SWIPERS, or seemingly well-intentioned patrons who engage in routine shoplifting. I am not sure whether the representatives have come across that. They probably have. We have focused on the dramatic up to now, for example, the youngster who comes in, and the grabbing, violence and aggression. To what extent is the sneaky shoplifter, who is seemingly well intentioned, an issue? This is somebody who comes in, takes stuff, puts it into a bag and walks out quietly or, as I said, goes to the scanning machine to scan carrots instead of avocados, which was given as an example. I ask for comment on that as well.

For Mr. Dunne and Mr. O'Driscoll, a local community safety partnership has been established in the inner city, instead of joint policing committees, JPCs. These partnerships are meant to work with business, education, the voluntary sector, the HSE, Tusla, the Garda, local authorities and councillors. There have been three pilots, one of which is in the inner city. Have Mr. Dunne or Mr. O'Driscoll any interaction with that? Do they know about it? I ask them to talk to that.

I know I am covering a lot of matters. If that €1.6 billion was impacted on, or reduced in any way, would it mean cheaper goods for other customers? Could that saving be passed on? I assume shoplifting is an extra cost that has to be built in in order to keep businesses profitable but if we could in some way impact on that, would it mean prices could come down?

On the Garda Reserve, we talk about people with yellow jackets going around and being visible. If we had the Garda Reserve up and running, we would have more yellow jackets on the streets. People might want to do that.

In 2015, a symposium, or Retail Retreat, was held by Retail Excellence Ireland, REI, on retail crime in Ireland. At that time, the estimated cost of retail crime was €1.62 billion. Some 98% of retailers saw the judicial system as ineffective and 81% of them called for a significant increase in Garda numbers. However, they also said that employee theft was quite high. I ask for comment on that. It was put at 42.7% of losses, which seems very high. Shoplifting was at 35%, while administrative error was 15%, vendors were 3.7% and unknown reasons were 3.9% of losses. I talked to the manager of a large store recently, who told me employee theft is an issue for him. I said I would bring it up to see whether it is something the witnesses came across in their experience. Will they comment on it?

The Department of Justice has an initiative, the joint agency response to crime, JARC, where the Garda, Prison Service and Probation Service come together to sit on somebody who is a known, prolific criminal. The Department also put together the youth joint agency response to crime, YJARC, which, again, sits on a young person who is known to be carrying out a lot of crimes. The various agencies really sit on this person. It seems to have been effective in Cork and Dublin, where it was put in as a pilot project.

There are a whole load of questions there. I am sorry for taking so long.

Ms Tara Buckley

I will answer the question about the forums. The retail forum is chaired by the Minister of State with responsibility for retail in the Department of enterprise. We asked for it to cover retail crime and we asked members of the Garda to come in to make a presentation to it. The issue has come onto the agenda of the retail forum. Its members realise we have a shared goal to try to reduce retail crime and have agreed it is worth putting it on the agenda as a regular item. They have linked up with the Garda on that. We would like to see the Department of Justice involved also. We believe a lot of the frustration, as the committee heard, is about sentencing and what happens when people are convicted of the crime.

The Garda also has a retail forum, which includes good representation from across the retail trade on security and other issues. It gets very good information. That meets intermittently, maybe twice a year. The operation has arisen out of that forum. Work is being done in between on trying to target the issue. People have tick-tacked with members of that group. The Garda also has a national rural safety forum, which includes the IFA and other community groups. Mr. Jennings and I are on that as well. That is a way of addressing safety issues in rural Ireland. The forums are talking to us and we have the opportunity to bring these issues to them.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

I do not distinguish between the sneaky shoplifter and other shoplifters because they both result in losses, as does the person who acts with aggression.

On the €1.62 billion figure and whether there would be reductions, there obviously would be after a period, but it would require a period when that is consolidated. Retailers would be able to become more competitive but, to be perfectly honest, they would need to get back on their feet first before they could do it and, in the interim, they would manage to pay wages and all the other costs that come their way. Certainly, retailers would not be pocketing it all because they are out to be competitive and to try to be competitive. We have a collective challenge. There is no doubt about it.

Have Mr. Dunne or Mr. O'Driscoll come across the community safety partnerships?

Mr. Vincent Jennings

I am aware of two of them in the Dublin area. I thought they were more at the council-based end of things. I know there is a Garda representative on them but I do not see them having the same level of importance as the policing group, to be honest.

Mr. Noel Dunne

From our point of view, the business improvement district in Dublin is currently representing us on both those partnerships.

I will finish on this, if I may. Will the representatives give some feedback on the issue of community courts at Red Hook and midtown in New York, if they look at it? Those courts certainly got in early and there was an immediacy with respect to the reaction to people being arrested and charged. They are in the courts the following day. It is just something we might-----

(Interruptions).

The National Crime Council had it.

Senator Ahearn has seven minutes.

I probably will not need it. I will pick up on what Mr. Dunne said about seeing a difference in the past number of weeks in that shoplifting crimes have reduced. Has that been seen across the sector?

Mr. Noel Dunne

Is that in the past week or ten days?

Yes. In Dublin, in particular.

Mr. Noel Dunne

Yes.

Is that agreed by everyone?

Ms Tara Buckley

It is just because there is more of a Garda presence in Dublin.

Does everyone see that?

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

There is an improvement, yes. We still would have-----

Is it too early to have any data on that yet in terms of-----

Mr. Noel Dunne

Absolutely. It has only been ten days. My fear, and what I believe, is that the Garda presence will be until the end of December. Surely, we can extend that to give us a chance to get a read on it and arrive at a consensus to see how much shoplifting has been reduced. We should have those boots on the ground for a further couple of months, rather than two weeks over a very busy period. That could be a test to see whether it works and it is viable to continue it.

What Mr. Dunne is essentially saying is a couple of weeks is not long enough to see if this is working.

Mr. Noel Dunne

Absolutely, yes.

What we need is three to six months-----

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

Absolutely.

-----of boots on the ground. If we are seeing a change in the space of two weeks, why not do this for a little longer, and continue to pay overtime for people to come into Dublin on their days off to protect the city as best as possible?

Mr. Noel Dunne

We can prove to the Garda that it is viable to do so.

Is the reduction in shoplifting anything to do with the reduction in numbers coming into the city since what happened three or four weeks ago?

Mr. Noel Dunne

No. From a sales point of view, this week we are back to where we should be.

That is my next question. Irish people are amazing. They support communities, shops and companies when they go through very difficult times. Deputy Stanton would know this well from Midleton.

I was down there last week. I spoke to a friend. People have been adamant in their support for Midleton since it was flooded. They want to support their local community and their shops. Is that happening in Dublin as well?

Mr. Noel Dunne

Absolutely. People want to come back to defy what has happened. They want to come back; they want their city. Dublin is a great city and we just need to protect it. They want to come back.

Ms Tara Buckley

When we look at the good results in Dublin, we have to check the results in the surrounding areas to see if it just dispersed. Did the crimes still happen? It is just in case we get a false sense of success.

In Tipperary, the concern would be that we might be moving gardaí from Tipperary to Dublin to cover the latter. At the moment, it is only overtime so we are not being affected. However, we need to see the crime figures to make sure they do not just move from one place to another.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

It is repetitive. It occurs every day. Gardaí get to know what is happening around the area. If gardaí are in a particular area all the time, they get to know all the petty offenders we have coming in every day. They deal with them on the street and that moves them. Some kind of respect will come on these people when they realise they are not getting away with this stuff anymore. It will take some time to develop that.

We all agree that gardaí are doing the best they can. Many of them are very deflated. I know gardaí who come to small stores, take someone to the courts and the judge asks if there is a space in a jail for them before they go into court. It is almost as if it is a garda's job to find something before the judge decides whether a person are prosecuted or not. Many gardaí are deflated because there is not enough space and they are not being punished the way they should be punished. The only way to solve this quickly is not so much changing the court system because that will just-----

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

There is also another issue. I have appeared in court for cases involving people who have robbed my shop. That person could have at least ten incidents from other shops they have robbed. There could be six gardaí there for the whole morning in court dealing with this one person involved in different incidents. It is just such a waste of time for those gardaí. They are in court all morning waiting for the judge. The case might even be put back and not be dealt with on that day. I have seen six gardaí there all morning dealing with one person because-----

The person gets off free, comes back to a store and robs it again.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

The person could get off as well.

Those six gardaí are not able to be on the street protecting people.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

There is something wrong with how that system works. It makes no sense to me that one garda cannot deal with all those issues particularly when-----

Gardaí will say they are frustrated with that. There is a greater problem within the courts. Instead of having that many people going to court, the only way to quickly deter it is by having more gardaí on the street.

Mr. Noel Dunne

We have often gone to court after six months and we have to review the CCTV footage to remember which incident it was because there are so many. We are then sitting in court all day. As I said earlier, if gardaí see that action is being taken, they will be more motivated to get these people into court. It is very demoralising for six gardaí to sit there all morning and for the person to be told "Off you pop."

We have seen an increase in this over the years and all this morning's contributions have referred to the extraordinary levels of crime. Almost all shops have installed security systems at their own expense. Do people feel it has been a waste of money putting in security systems or would things be even worse if these things were not in place?

Mr. Noel Dunne

It is two pronged. It would be worse if we had not got it in; I have no doubt about that. In addition, we talked about peace of mind for staff. Staff feel much better if there are 14 cameras watching everything that happens and if there is a uniformed security guard walking around the store. It is there for staff as much as it is for crime prevention. They feel that the environment is much safer and I certainly feel that the environment is much safer. Sanctions because of the cameras would be ideal.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

We also need evidence if there is an issue. False arrests are another problem for us. We are catching so many people robbing, if we make a mistake, it is very expensive. We have to be absolutely sure that-----

Does that happen frequently?

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

People also set the retailers up. I had one incident last week where two people came in and got roll and a drink. They put the drink and the roll on a till that was not in use and they went over and talked to somebody in the shop. Another person came in off the street, picked up the roll and the drink and paid for it. On the way out, the person handed the roll to the people who had ordered originally. My staff behind the till were watching and they saw them walking out. It was a busy moment. They saw them walking out and they said to the manager they did not pay for the roll. They did not realise that somebody else had picked up the roll and paid for it. My approach is that we do not stop people unless we are-----

However, that was deliberately done to try to catch the retailer out.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

I believe it was. We are caught in that conundrum where we are trying to stop people robbing.

Mr. Noel Dunne

I had one incident where we were set up; we knew we were set up. They left. They sued us for false arrest. It is a long story. It went to court. Outside the court, my insurance company, in its wisdom, decided it was best to pay them.

The only successful court proceedings the retailers seem to be involved in are the ones against them.

Mr. Noel Dunne

Yes. For some reason they come up much quicker and they are solved much quicker.

There is something wrong with that.

I call Senator McGahon for seven minutes, followed by Deputy Ó Murchú for seven minutes. I have an awful feeling we are going to hear a lot about Dundalk.

Absolutely. I am not a member of this committee. I thank the Chair for allowing me to come in. When I heard Mr. Fee was here, I decided I would have to come in and ask a few questions. Mr. Fee and I have chatted a lot about retail in Dundalk in recent years.

I had a conversation with another shopkeeper about some amazing technology that I did not know existed. It is the concept of smart video surveillance where AI technology is used in CCTV to try to identify suspicious hand movements and other suspicious activity. The Dundalk retailer who installed it said he was amazed at how many of his regular day-to-day customers, people whom he knows and whose families and kids he knows, were stealing from him. It all added up. In his usual diplomatic way, he was able to say to someone "Oh, you might have forgotten about that newspaper." It started out with a tin of dog food and a newspaper. Studies show that this type of surveillance can reduce shoplifting in a shop by over 40%. It was the first time I realised that this type of technology existed. I just thought CCTV was CCTV and required the retailer to go back and look at it. This is this is real-time detection on his mobile phone through AI where a human can then look at it and identify if somebody is robbing something or just moving their hand to get their wallet out. How widespread is that in retail stores? What is the cost for a business to install that level of AI-type CCTV?

Mr. Colin Fee

I am actually due to visit the store the Senator mentioned to have a look at it. I have spoken to a few people about it. There is a lot of overhead. There are a lot of man hours involved. The technology is getting better but it does give a lot of false alarms where the customer did not take something. However, it does alert the retailer. It is quite new technology and the feedback we are getting is that it is picking up a lot of stuff that we might not pick up ourselves. I am not aware of how much it costs but it is not overly expensive. For each store we would budget about €2,000 a year just to maintain the security systems, mainly the CCTV. The big issue is that even if that detected something the retailer has to go back and make absolutely sure that the theft is caught on CCTV and that the person has it when leaving the store.

I was in that shop a couple of weeks ago and they showed me how it works.

I thought this could go a long way. However, margins are tight enough, as they are in every sector, and in retail you are trying to make as much potential profit on everything you sell. Even though something like that will save money by reducing the potential amount of theft, it will still be quite a burden for retail and businesses. While it is where the future of CCTV is going in retail, I am concerned about the cost burden for shops, especially smaller retail shops that would be trying to deal with it.

I appreciate the ability to come in.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

Shops with high-value items are where that would be more relevant, where there would be expensive clothes-----

Mr. Vincent Jennings

Designer bags.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

Yes, bags and items that are €100, for example. It would be beneficial in that case. Our business is small items. You are trying to value how much you will save by doing it and how much you are doing when you are in the shop yourself all day.

Mr. Colin Fee

We have another prevention tool that tracks stuff coming off the deli that does not go through the tills. When we got that and put it in, it was the very same thing. Many customers we never would have dreamt were shoplifting were taking from us.

People you see every day.

Mr. Colin Fee

When we caught them, we would go back as far as we could on the CCTV and it was happening. It was not a one-off. Everything helps.

Catching them is one thing, but with regard to the Garda, the justice system and the jails, we are wasting our time and money if we cannot get a conviction and there is no deterrent.

Looking the court pages in the The Argus any day of the week, all the retail theft crime is there. There are people with a litany of charges against them and who have huge rap sheets. When you see that type of stuff happening and it is there every week, what will stop someone if there is no deterrent? I thank the Chair for letting me in. I used to work for the late Senator Paul Coghlan, who worked closely with RGDATA for many years. It is nice to see everyone here and I thank Mr. Fee for his time.

I should probably thank the Chair for letting me in even though I am not a member of this committee. Everyone seems to be very mannerly here. I thank the witnesses for coming. It is good to see Mr. Fee.

It was always said to me that when you were trying out new technologies in respect of shoplifting, you would try it out in Ireland because, on some level - it is not something we would like to be proud of - we had the best shoplifters going. Is that still the case?

Mr. Colin Fee

I do not know what other countries are like but we are a nation of cute hoors. It is a problem that has always been there but it is much bigger than people realise. People look at it as petty stuff. However, a large number of small things become a big number.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

It is a volume problem.

Mr. Colin Fee

Adding to that, what starts small gets bigger.

Once a person gets away with it.

Mr. Colin Fee

They start getting more aggressive and that is when it starts hurting – when the staff feel threatened.

Once upon a time, another job I did badly was as a security guard one summer – a highly trained security guard in my case. I was told you do not put your hand on anybody unless you think they can get a six-month sentence. I do not how you would work out in real time whether somebody would get a six-month sentence. We have all seen where the witnesses are dealing with a greater level of aggression and all the rest of it. They have security guards who are probably not paid huge money. It is particularly seen in hospital settings, never mind in shops, where you can be dealing with very chaotic characters. Someone like a security guard will probably not take that risk and the people at the other end are probably aware of that. It is an issue that needs to be addressed. I am not entirely sure. It is not like you can make people into an almost garda, as it were. I have seen it be an issue across the board.

The witnesses are talking about an increased amount of shoplifting. I have seen a huge amount. If you go through court reports, you will find it is the same names. In fairness, if you break them down individually, they are not crimes that will get a person a life sentence. These are probably chaotic people. I can think of a number of them. When they are not busy shoplifting, they are eating tablets and whatever else. It is a wider societal issue but the witnesses have to deal with it. I am not saying there is any way to absolutely police that. Wider issues need to be dealt with. In some of the cases I am talking about, you would also want a "Back to the Future" car and to have dealt with it 20 years beforehand. However, we are where we are. There needs to be some element of sanction, and chaotic circumstances need to be addressed. We also need to at least try to address it in relation to future generations. Sometimes, the problem for the witnesses is they will be dealing with these people head on. We can all talk about what needs to be done in respect of intergenerational trauma, addiction and mental health issues, but it is not always pretty when you have to deal with it in your shop and it is going off on one of your staff members.

Mr. Colin Fee

It is not pretty at the coalface. If you have a site in a disadvantaged area, 95% of the people are nice, law-abiding, good people. It is just a small minority. The Deputy quite rightly said it and Senator McGahon alluded to it as well, that it is the same names over and over again. My biggest problem is that there seems to be no deterrent. Earlier, I mentioned a guy who has four, five or six bench warrants against him. He came back in and robbed again. In fairness to the gardaí, they got him.

Without getting into the ins and outs of who he is, what other issues does he have?

Mr. Colin Fee

I do not know. All I know is that he was arrested six, seven or eight times. He has done us perhaps 20 times. As I said, we started reporting everything. We had five or six but he was up for other stuff in other shops as well. Two gardaí took him to another court an hour's drive away to get him. The judge let him out and he came back and shoplifted in our shop that night. There were two gardaí in a car, at taxpayers’ expense, going-----

I get it. None of this is working. He might get three or six months at the most. Even those who work in the Prison Service say that, in respect of rehabilitation or dealing with detox or whatever is necessary, none if it works unless a person is in for a year-plus sentence anyway.

Mr. Colin Fee

And we do not have the space.

No. That is it, but there is a wider societal issue that there are more of these cases. Everybody has mental health issues and we are all very understanding. However, a percentage of people are a danger to themselves and others and I am not sure society has a means of dealing with that. I am sure we dealt with it imperfectly before but sometimes that is also an issue the witnesses are dealing with.

Mr. Colin Fee

I think they are playing the system as well.

Mr. Colin Fee

These are very clever people. They can play the system and we have to abide by the rules and the Garda has to-----

I understand. Mr. Fee said some of these people are very clever, but some of these cases are relatively chaotic crimes and those involved are getting caught consistently.

Mr. Colin Fee

I agree.

It is not exactly a great lifestyle.

Mr. Colin Fee

No, it is not.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

Really and truly, we are here just as retailers and representatives of retailers. We are not sociologists or criminologists.

I am not asking you to be. I will stop Mr. Jennings now because I was going to ask what the witnesses propose. If the witnesses get all these guys done, as it were, they are not getting them on anything that gets them a five- to six-year sentence.

Ms Tara Buckley

In respect of the youth problem, we propose that justice, social protection, education and enterprise come together to look at all the elements they can harness to try to address the problem. We should nip it in the bud when they are young and deal with whatever problems in whatever way. I refer to Deputy Stanton’s idea of the community court the next day and things like that. It would all be feeding into a system that is designed to try to assist people who might start a life of crime to not to go down that route and to go down a better route.

I get it. None if it is working and the witnesses are paying the price. I am not saying the witnesses need to solve their problem.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

I can think of no greater level of child abuse than sending a child out to steal for you.

I agree with Mr. Jennings.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

That is happening and it absolutely needs to stop.

I have a particular issue with the idea that kids are only in danger if the danger is imminent, for example, if someone is about to hit them with a hammer.

People who use their kids to steal or for drug deals are having their kids around absolute danger. There are a huge number of issues which are not been dealt with. I accept this is beyond the remit of what we are dealing with here, but until we address all of that we will have problems.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

There is no doubt there are social issues as the Deputy has said. In the nineties we had a heroin epidemic. It was a very serious problem for me in the early years in my business. We had to deal with heroin addicts but we knew who they were. They were just one cohort and that was it. Now we still have addiction and social issues but there are more people who are aggressive and do not show the signs of drug addiction. These are people who think they can get away with it because they have been getting away with it for so long.

People will keep pushing and pushing if they are not knocked back. Obviously, there needs to be sanction. We cannot exist without it

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

If we can even clean up that bit, if we can get some control over those people to make them know they should not be robbing because they will not get away with it, then you can deal with the social issues. They are always going to be there and there will always be theft but the volume of theft at the moment is the problem. It is not only drug addicts who coming in to rob from my store. Only a certain volume of people who do that now.

It is important to acknowledge it is not to up to retailers to sort out our socioeconomic problems. That is a job for Government policy. We need to have the witnesses leave here today with an idea that this committee can do something to support them. Mr. Jennings mentioned bringing his private CCTV to a garda. What is the admissibility of that as evidence? If I am an arresting inspector sent to get CCTV footage, that is fine, I get it. If Mr. Jennings shows the footage to gardaí, do they actually take note of it or record it or do they simply acknowledge that the culprit has been caught on camera?

Mr. Vincent Jennings

I have moved on from working in retail, so perhaps one of the retailers can answer the question.

Mr. Noel Dunne

We have a relationship with Store Street Garda station. It has specific gardaí who are CCTV experts. When an incident occurs, a garda will come to see what has happened and then he will request one of these experts. I know them well at this stage. They can operate my system better than I can. They take a copy of the footage, put it on a fob or pen drive and that then is admissible in court. They are definitely taking all the footage and they are appreciative of it.

When Mr. Dunne makes a complaint, how often do the gardaí ask to review the CCTV footage?

Mr. Noel Dunne

Every single time. Any time the Garda is called, its members will ask to see the CCTV. They will insist on somebody coming later on for me to make a statement and sign the form, giving them permission to take a copy of the CCTV footage from the system. I will then have to go to court and say that is the footage from my store. They are definitely taking the CCTV footage.

I want to go back to the point of the appetite of the Garda to try to give more support to the witnesses vis-à-vis the Belfast initiative, which was discussed earlier. I understand that the PULSE IT system is presently undergoing a major upgrade. I presume this is because it has not been upgraded in more than 20 years. If we are doing this business watch scheme, there is an opportunity to ask the Garda to try to get some kind of a feed-in system from retailers where they could interact with the PULSE system. An arresting garda might see five pieces of private CCTV in relation to five different arrests and cautions previously. That is the kind of dashboard we need to start trying to get to. It is clear that we have a number of problems and the witnesses have highlighted them themselves. A youth who is constantly in trouble with the Garda will end up getting cautioned 25 times and have 20 charges before being brought up in court. The youth will then get some kind of pretty small misdemeanour, will be out with a suspended sentence for six months and will be back in operations again. We need to do something that highlights the real impact of this. It is not just about the profits of shopkeepers or the viability of their businesses. It is also about the impact on the people working there and the cumulative social degeneration it leads to. We need to do something. This committee should interlink with the Department of Justice to see if something like this could be done.

Mr. Noel Dunne

We spoke earlier about Operation Táirge and what that is going to do for the top level. I suggest a similar project for our level, where members of the Garda would come and talk to retailers. Between us, we could develop something that would target this petty crime in a more organised fashion. What the Garda intends to do in respect of the top end of retail crime, gang crime and fencing and resale is excellent. Hopefully, in a couple of years' time, it will stop our perpetrators from moving into that zone. While we have the opportunity, can we have something similar directed primarily at shoplifters at the small end? By their very nature, retailers and staff would be more than willing to contribute to such an initiative. If there was a link between ourselves, the Garda, courts and CCTV experts, we could put a lid on this - or at least put a project in place to capture all of this - very quickly. In other words, if we can do something like what is being done at the top end. If everyone was communicating, we would have something that would cover the whole timeline of crime, so to speak.

We can talk to colleagues to see where we can go with that.

Ms Julie Dorel

Retailers across the country are equipped with the technology and are willing to share and collaborate to tackle the issue.

Musgrave is a large company. Perhaps it should pilot something in a number of stores and try to link in.. A lot of this will have to be proven. The problem is the Garda does not have the resources. It does not even have feet on the ground. That is the big problem. We need to use technology to short-circuit some of this. There should be more discussion on the issue. This committee is probably not the appropriate forum. It needs a justice response. However, we can certainly do something to promote the idea.

Ms Tara Buckley

The Garda needs to be involved. If we want to prevent a crime, you have a reason for holding onto CCTV footage or sharing it. However, in her annual report a few years ago, the GDPR director issued a warning about this. Retailers were sharing images when they thought a well known shoplifter was arriving in town. If anyone put a message on WhatsApp with a picture warning other retailers that this person had just robbed his or her shop and to keep an eye out, that person was told it was against the law.

That needs to be revisited. It is simply common sense. If we knew there was a known paedophile running around between national schools, would we be saying that we should not be sharing information and images? That is totally ridiculous. We have lots of archaic lawmaking and laws made with the best of intentions and the worst of outcomes. This is something else for broader discussion.

Mr. Michael O'Driscoll

Population increase is also a problem. We have a larger population now so there is a larger amount of disadvantaged people, some of whom may turn be robbing. As population increases, the Garda needs more resources. Many more people are coming from abroad; we have people from every situation now. We are still living in the eighties in terms of how we are trying to deal with petty theft.

I thank all the witness for attending what has been an informative meeting. I myself worked in retail for 19 years. One of those shops was a travel agency in London in what people would have called a tough area to work in. I can appreciate some of what you have said. My office in Limerick is an area called the Market Quarter and the gardaí often come into my office for CCTV footage of crimes committed on the street. As a level of crime is going on in the area, I can empathise there as well. We will not leave it at that. We will try to do something because we can understand the what the witnesses are saying. I am mindful of the costs that are coming down the line for them. As they do not need this one as well, we will do our best to mitigate this.

That concludes the committee's business in public session. I propose we now go into private session to consider other business. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 12 noon and adjourned at 12.20 p.m. sine die.
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