Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Feb 2024

IDA Ireland: Chairperson Designate

An Cathaoirleach

I remind members who are participating remotely of the need to do so only from within the Leinster House complex. We have not received any apologies.

Today we will engage with Mr. Feargal O'Rourke, chairperson designate of IDA Ireland. As members will be aware, IDA Ireland is an autonomous statutory agency set up under the Industrial Development Acts 1986 to 2019. It operates in accordance with the provisions of the Acts and under the aegis of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I welcome the chairperson designate, Mr. Feargal O'Rourke. He is joined by: Mr. John Nolan, secretary and manager corporate services, IDA Ireland; Ms Breda O'Sullivan, manager corporate strategy and planning, IDA Ireland; Mr. Paul Bailey, head of global marketing and communications, IDA Ireland; and Mr. John Hughes, principal officer, inward investment unit, Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Before we begin, as is always the case, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references that may be made to another person in evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is important they comply with any such direction.

The opening statement has been circulated. To commence our consideration of this matter, I invite Mr. O'Rourke to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I am delighted and honoured to attend today's meeting as the new chair of IDA Ireland. It would be remiss of me were I not to begin by paying tribute to my predecessor, Mr. Frank Ryan, who served as chair of IDA Ireland for the past ten years, having previously had a successful executive career with both Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland. His wise council and thoughtful leadership played a key role in the success of IDA Ireland during that period. Moreover, Frank is one of life's most decent human beings and has been extremely helpful to me in the handover period.

The committee may not be familiar with my background. I am from Athlone, where I grew up and went to school. I came to Dublin to study in University College Dublin, UCD, graduating with a B.Comm and a diploma in professional accounting. While I have spent two thirds of my life in Dublin, I still consider myself to be a proud Westmeath man. On 8 October 1986, I joined what was then Price Waterhouse with the intention of qualifying as a chartered accountant and returning home to Athlone, but 37 years later to the day I retired from PwC, having had a wonderfully fulfilling professional career beyond any expectations I had when I joined in 1986. I was fortunate to work with some great leaders in the organisation locally and globally and with great clients of the organisation. In 1996, I became a tax partner in the firm and worked a significant portion of my career in the area of foreign direct investment, FDI. For most of my career, I worked extensively, but not exclusively, with household names on the west coat of the US. I was privileged to work with many of the companies that now rank among the largest FDI employers in Ireland.

I held several management roles in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa and the Irish firm, culminating in my being head of the PwC tax practice from 2011 to 2015 and being elected managing partner in 2015. I was re-elected unanimously for a second term in 2019.

I was appointed as chairman of IDA Ireland by the Minister, Deputy Coveney, on 3 January 2024. In the seven weeks since then I have been busy reading my way into the role and meeting team members, wider stakeholders, and of course my predecessor and the CEO. Two weeks ago, I chaired my first board meeting following an informal icebreaker virtual meeting to introduce myself and the two other new board members to the rest of the board. I was fortunate to be appointed on the day of the annual staff conference, which I attended, as that allowed me a timely immersion into the agency.

This year, in fact, last week, IDA Ireland marked its 75th anniversary, reflecting Ireland's long-standing track record of positioning FDI as a key pillar of the country's enterprise policy. IDA Ireland's mission is to partner with multinational companies to win and develop foreign direct investment, providing jobs, economic impact, and opportunity for the people of Ireland.

The agency is a world-class organisation. That is not just my own view. Over the course of my 37 years in the professional services industry, I was repeatedly told this by clients who had experience of being courted by a variety of inward investment agencies from around the world. Punching above its weight and populated by a team who metaphorically get blood on their shirts in trying to win projects and investments for Ireland, IDA Ireland is the envy of many other countries who seek to replicate the success we have had as a country, over many decades, in attracting FDI here.

The success of IDA Ireland is systemically important to the well-being of the Irish economy and, by extension, Irish society. IDA Ireland clients directly account for 11% of total employment nationally and make a major economic contribution that ranges from an annual spend of €35.8 billion on payroll and Irish sourced goods and services, to €15.5 billion on capital expenditure and more than €7 billion on in-house research, development and innovation. These figures tangibly demonstrate the scale and scope of FDI in Ireland today.

While 2023 was a turbulent year, it was one in which Ireland's FDI performance remained strong. Direct employment in IDA Ireland-client companies now stands at 300,583 with good sectoral diversity. We saw particularly welcome momentum in transformation-focused investments last year. IDA Ireland approved 25 sustainability projects focused on carbon abatement and building Ireland's green economy. New research, development and innovation and talent development projects were won with associated client spend commitments of €1.4 billion and €77 million, respectively. Overall, 248 investments were approved by the agency in 2023 with the potential to create almost 19,000 jobs as these projects come on stream.

Regional development plays a key part in our story of success as well, with over half of all investments won last year going to locations outside Dublin - 132 investments in total. IDA Ireland's 2021-24 strategy includes published investment targets for the eight regions of the country. We expect to achieve those targets, building on the record levels of regional investment secured since 2015. This success, in a global FDI context where investors typically favour large urban centres or large mega sites, is testament to IDA Ireland's partnership with a broad range of regional and national stakeholders and to key initiatives such as the regional property programme and Digital Manufacturing Ireland. As we enter the final year of our current four-year strategy, we have made considerable progress and expect to achieve or surpass the range of targets set at the strategy's outset.

In sporting terms, IDA Ireland is like Limerick in hurling or Shamrock Rovers or Manchester City in football. We have a fantastic record of success, but once the year or season is over, we have got to do it all over again. We can survive a year where we are not top of the pile, but we cannot afford to enter a period where we are living off past glories. In my initial draft I mentioned some counties and teams but I will pass on referring to them on this occasion.

The single biggest task for the board this year will be working with management as we collectively shape a strategy for the organisation that will get us towards the end of the decade. That process had already started prior to my joining the board and will continue through 2024. This is against the backdrop of significant geopolitical uncertainty, with the resultant impact on the business environment. They include a more muted pace of growth in the global economy; a more active industrial policy from some competitor nations; the challenge of climate change and the opportunity of the green transition; companies globally grappling with the next step on their diverse digitalisation journeys; and of course the artificial intelligence, AI, revolution that is taking place.

Ireland's ability to compete in this changing world is also dependent on having the right set of enabling conditions in place. The national competitiveness challenges encountered during our current strategy are well understood at this stage and include issues relating to energy costs and renewable energy provision, housing, infrastructure, and utilities. With countries around the world vying to win the race for the next generation of FDI growth, the opportunity cost of not addressing these issues in a timely manner, particularly sustainable energy supply, risks being sizeable. Against this national and international background, IDA Ireland's focus for 2024 will be on developing a new organisational strategy while at the same time ensuring the organisation continues to do what it has done well for so many years.

Our approach in 2024 recognises the need to help the Irish operations of global firms transform to thrive in a fast-changing world. IDA Ireland is actively partnering with client companies on investments in talent development, digitalisation, research and development, innovation, and sustainability, including decarbonisation.

Ireland's existing enterprise and talent base places us in an enviable position as the twin green and digital transitions reshape the global economy. With the requisite national enabling conditions in place – aligned to emerging FDI attractiveness factors such as AI skills and renewable, reliable, affordable energy – we will be well placed to capture new investment opportunities. Over the coming months, agency's strategy development process will focus on these new opportunities and the steps we need to take as an agency and as a country to realise them. At the same time, we will assess how best we can continue to support our existing client companies to maintain and enhance the economic impact and opportunity that they provide for people throughout the country.

While I expect the pipeline of projects to continue to be strong as we move through 2024, the challenges we face to stay to the forefront of attractive locations to invest in are significant. However, I assure this committee that the board and the entire organisation understand these challenges. I have no doubt we will give our all to rise to them.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. O'Rourke. I now invite members to speak. There is a rota in place. The first group slot is for Sinn Féin. Deputy O'Reilly has 14 minutes.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Mr. O'Rourke and his team are very welcome. I wish him the very best in his role. We look forward to ongoing engagement with him and the team. Since we are all mentioning our teams, I will not go without saying "Up the Dubs". We can move on from that.

In his opening statement Mr. O'Rourke mentioned his own CV and his work history, which is broad and comprehensive. He mentioned his work with companies on the west coast of America as well as in Europe, the Middle East and Africa, which is obviously what equipped him for the job. Will his experience in these roles and covering those areas help the agency and Ireland build and maintain the success of the past while also securing investment from new markets in the future?

Mr. O'Rourke mentioned that the capacity to secure FDI, and the work of IDA Ireland in that regard, is a very striking feature of our economy. Preserving the flow of high-impact US projects is very important, but it cannot be to the detriment of other areas. We know that there are other markets where we can and should be active. Does Mr. O'Rourke agree that we can expand and perhaps take the focus off the US? Is it possible to keep the focus on the US while also expanding? Is he confident that his own experience and the geographical spread of his CV lends itself to being able to execute that expansion?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

It is very interesting. I will take almost either extreme. I think we have 40 companies from China operating in Ireland, as against 600 companies from the US. There is no denying that when it comes to inward investment the United States is the 800 lb gorilla, and will continue to be into the foreseeable future. When we look at large global companies, many tend to be headquartered in the US. As a result, the US will always be our number one priority market for where we focus our resources. Having said that, there has been a move by successive Governments to enhance our focus on Asia. Investing in Japan, China and the emerging markets will continue to attract more of our resources going forward.

In my experience, during most of the 37 years before coming here, I was in rooms with clients when they were deciding where they would locate, primarily but not exclusively in the United States, and the things they look for are pretty common. They include our access to the Single Market, and the fact that we have available talent coming from third level, from apprenticeships or, as we welcome people in, from abroad.

These are common whether people are coming from China, Japan or the USA. They want to have a pro-business society and economy that welcome inward investment and where there is this attractiveness and access to the Single Market. We will, therefore, continue to focus heavily on the US but also recognise there is a world beyond it that we need to continue to tap.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank Mr. O'Rourke. His opening statement referred to areas of concern. This is fair enough because it cannot all be smiles, rainbows and roses. We know there are global factors that are important to consider. Reference was made to global uncertainty. The Department of Finance recently cited a rapidly changing global economy and deglobalisation as the key trend that will transform our economy over the next decade. Mr. O'Rourke also referred to there being more attractive industrial policies in some areas from some of our competitors. I ask him to go into some detail on what those are and what we can do as policymakers to perhaps address this aspect. I am a firm believer in not reinventing any wheels. If something has been done well elsewhere and if it fits our context, there would be no reason we would not try to replicate it. Are there examples that could be pointed to or any specifics that can be elaborated on concerning this aspect?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I am an optimist by nature. No matter how the world changes and moves, we tend, and have done for 75 years, to adapt to those changing circumstances. There are probably two key enablers for Ireland. One is that we are nimble and agile. Successive governments have been very good at looking out into what is happening in the marketplace and then seeing if we can adapt it. To take the research and development tax credit, for example, it has been around for 20 years, having been brought in 2004. It has, though, been adapted and adjusted many times over those years to take into account feedback not just from FDI companies but also from indigenous industry. This is a really good example of our nimbleness and agility.

There are some areas we might not be able to compete in. If we look at what the US is doing now, in a change in recent years from the past, it is offering significant subsidies to microchip manufacturers to base their chip manufacturing operations in the US. Now, we will not be able to compete with the numbers being offered by the US to subsidise companies making chips. Having said that, however, whether it is chip manufacturing or any other industry, companies have a desire for geographical diversity and not to have all their eggs in one basket. When companies are looking at geographical diversity and at the European market, then our job is to be in the top two countries on the list when they are starting their analysis and to get to number one when they have completed it. If we continue to be nimble and to reflect the feedback we receive from client companies and then to action it into changes in policies and legislation, we will continue to be at the forefront.

As I look at the landscape, the other country that would have come up quite a bit, again in the context of my previous career, is Singapore. It is a different model in many ways but people would talk about the IDA and the Singaporean authority in the same breath as being excellent at what they do. I definitely do not want to sound complacent. We recognise it is a war every week to get inward investment. I am not looking at any other country, however, and wishing we could be it. I am very happy with where we are at and I am very happy with the support received from successive governments in giving us the changed tools when they are needed to attract inward investment.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank Mr. O'Rourke for that answer. I do not wish to be negative but he did refer in his submission to challenges that affect our ability to compete in a changing world. As he said, we must have the right enabling policies in place. We have had heard from plenty of witnesses who have referred to the challenges being faced by businesses. These are pretty much the same ones as everyone else is facing in terms of energy costs, housing and infrastructure. I ask Mr. O'Rourke to speak about the risks in this regard and to categorise them as those he might classify as sizeable and those that may prove to be risks but not massively serious ones.

I also ask him to comment on how housing and infrastructure are impacting on the capacity to deliver inward investment. No organisation has come through here and not referred to the housing disaster, or "catastrophe" as the President called it. Whatever we call it, this is a fact and we are living with it. I refer to the extent this situation is now impacting on our capacity to attract inward investment and for existing companies to be able to expand. Mr. O'Rourke referred to this aspect in his submission but can he elaborate on this point and speak to it a little more?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

This is a societal issue. The impact on FDI is very much of a secondary or tertiary nature. The Deputy outlined issues with housing, renewable energy, the grid and water. These are probably the four areas. Again, the optimist in me would say we had the same housing pressures last year and yet it was another great year for foreign direct investment. It looks like more than 30,000 houses will be built this year, so the Government's Housing for All programme is delivering on the targets. What is coming back, though, is that those targets are not high enough and that we may need 50,000 new houses to be built next year.

Housing has been referred to in the context of inward investment. It is not proving to be a negative factor yet for us. On power, I think this issue is probably one of transition. If we look out to 2030, our current demand for about 6 GW to 7 GW is scheduled to be about 10 GW in 2030, of which 80% is predicted to be renewable power. Now, much of this increased supply will meet the increase in demand from data centres, electric vehicles and the growth in the economy. If we get to 2030 with a supply of about 10 GW, of which 80% were to be renewable, that would be fantastic. It is getting from here to there in this transition period where there may be bumps along the road.

Right now, again, I think we are still ahead of the game. I met the chair of EirGrid this week. He was filling me in regarding the investment programme it has for the years to come. Whether we are talking now about water, the grid system or renewable power, there are plans in train. The quicker we can get to 2030, if this does not sound like a contradiction, the better. At the moment, I think we are just ahead of the game. I do not think, though, that we can afford to slow the progress we are making concerning investment in the grid, renewable power and housing over the next five or six years. If we were to slow progress in this regard, then we will run into issues.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I agree progress is necessary in those areas. We have heard from IBEC and other business representative groups and they have spoken in stark terms about how the housing crisis is impacting on their capacity not just to maintain the current situation but in respect of fundamental issues like recruiting and retaining staff. If people cannot afford to live near where they work or within a reasonable commute of where they wish to work, then these are real challenges that people are facing.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

They are. We are not alone in this challenge. The growth in the population we have had, especially in the past decade, has exacerbated the problem in Ireland. If we look at other European countries, however, they are also struggling with this same affordable housing issue. The bar also keeps getting higher. If we were to go back five or six years ago, and it was said we would be producing 30,000 units in 2023, people would have said that was fantastic, but the world has moved on.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

That is it, yes. It has moved on and it moves very quickly. The Department of Finance recently cited the four Ds, namely, demographics, decarbonisation, digitisation and deglobalisation, which just trips off the tongue, as key trends that are likely to be transformative for our economy over the next decade. The belief among some business stakeholders is that high-value, emerging technologies in a variety of areas, like renewables, AI, quantum computing and ultra-personalised medicine, are going to be massive areas of opportunity. Securing investment in these areas will be absolutely crucial in securing the next generation of FDI. How is the IDA equipped to handle this next generation of FDI? I ask this because Mr. O'Rourke himself said an organisation is really only as good as its last season. The IDA's last season was decent. What is it doing to build for the next one and specifically to secure growth in those areas? We would nearly class this as the type of technology that just did not exist when we were in school.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

Correct.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

This is going to be a feature of the future. How is the IDA managing future-proofing in this context?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

We are literally in the middle of our strategy process for the next four or five years. Two of the big themes coming through on this, or probably three if I break them out a bit, are sustainability and decarbonisation, artificial intelligence and, as a kind of a subset of that, digitisation and associated issues.

If I take artificial intelligence first, I am old enough to remember when personal computers first came in. People said it was amazing, would lead to huge reductions in job numbers and everybody would be able to sit back and work a four-day week and so on. What happened? It freed people up to work in different areas. It created new jobs. It did eliminate other jobs. I remember in my old job starting off we had comptometers and people had the job of literally totting up numbers all day, every day. They were superseded by the advent of personal computers.

Artificial intelligence is going to have the same impact. There is an artificial intelligence industry, like OpenAI, but every single company in every single industry is looking to see how artificial intelligence can impact its business. What is likely to happen is that it will eliminate some jobs but will also create greater opportunities for people to move up the value chain. If we look forward a few years, artificial intelligence will impact some of the jobs that are currently in IDA Ireland supported companies. However, I like to believe that in the same way that a number of companies here have evolved over the years and increased their employment while doing things unrelated to what they were originally doing, we will combat that as well. Where the IDA is helping, whether it is in artificial intelligence or on sustainability, is that we are recognising that Irish operations of these multinationals are having to prove their relevance to headquarters - that they are ahead of the game and understand what the overall corporate mission is on sustainability and AI - and setting out what they are doing in Ireland. Therefore, what we are helping those companies to do is understand where they are on their roadmap within their organisations and offer assistance, whether it is grant assistance or training, to help them upskill within their organisation. Even at my first board meeting last week, when we were reviewing some project applications, it was incredible to see a number that were addressing this issue of artificial intelligence head on within their organisation and trying to get better than their counterparts in France, Spain and everywhere else.

Sustainability, which includes decarbonisation, renewable and artificial intelligence, which includes digitisation, will be core to the IDA strategy of helping our existing clients and also trying to attract higher value parts of those industries into Ireland. It is very much on the agenda. It is very much already being supported by the IDA and will be a central part of the strategy. The things we have done well over the past 75 years, and particularly over the last decade, are great but they will not get us to where we want to get over the next five years. We have to take those new areas on board.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Is there anything specifically that members of the committee, as policymakers, can do? I know I am out of time but, very briefly, is there anything we can do to assist?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I would love to say they could give us even more people but, absent that, it is about being receptive to a lot of the developments that will take place in Europe and making sure we are at the forefront of that. The IDA will certainly feed into policymakers what we think is the best answer for attracting inward investment to Ireland.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I am sorry for taking more time, Chair.

Deputy David Stanton

I welcome Mr. O'Rourke and his team and congratulate him on his appointment. I wish him well with the work ahead.

I will follow up on Deputy O'Reilly's comments on AI. Last week, I attended a global parliamentary seminar at which we heard AI being described as the fourth industrial revolution following on from steam, electricity and the computer age. It is that important. The seminar heard that we are now in a post-Internet age, which is amazing to think about.

I will start by addressing a report on the IDA website on European cities and regions of the future. The Chairman will be glad to hear that the mid-west is ranked No. 1 in FDI strategy. Thankfully, Cork is ranked No. 2 for friendliness, which does not surprise me, and economic potential. Dublin's is ranked No. 3 overall and No. 2 for economic potential. That is excellent. The west of Ireland is also doing extraordinarily well. Other parts of the country obviously need attention. Will part of the IDA's strategy be to look at parts of the country that are not doing so well and could do better? I note Mr. O'Rourke said the IDA moved many of the start-ups and FDI outside Dublin last year. What work is the IDA doing to spread investment out even more? What parts of the country has it identified as needing attention?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

With a chairman from Westmeath and a chief executive from Leitrim, the regions will not be forgotten in the IDA strategy. It has been very successful, particularly over the last ten years. As I mentioned, 54% of our IDA client employees are now outside the Dublin region. From a strategic perspective, we do not look at counties but at regions. We have eight regions we report on and all eight are ahead of target with regard to the objectives we set for the four-year strategy concluding at the end of this year. We talk about the past but this will probably continue into the future. The IDA has a regional property programme as well. It will look at having strategic sites and making sure business parks are fit for purpose. We are looking well into the future and asking what if we wanted a mega site somewhere of 1,000 acres rather than 100 acres. These are regionally balanced. Again, to put that in context, with the world moving to large urban centres and with Ireland, viewed in European terms, only having one or two big cities, the fact that we have managed to push so much into the regions is fantastic. In the past, where the private sector has not been able to stand up with regard to the construction of buildings, whether advance factories or advance office blocks, the IDA has stepped in and done that.

As part of our project, we will look at how we have done in regionalisation. As I said, we are ahead in all the eight regions already, but we will look forward and ask whether there are gaps. Of course, when people look at this they tend to say their town does not have a factory. To speak for my home town, if there is a factory in Athlone, it impacts on Roscommon, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly and east Galway. It has a pull effect. As the chairman, I try to look beyond counties or towns and look at regions and make sure the regions are well serviced.

Deputy David Stanton

The committee did a lot of work earlier on remote working, the right to request remote working and so on. Recently I have noticed that some companies pushing back on remote working and trying to get people to come back into the office more. What is Mr. O'Rourke finding in that particular space?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I do not think we will ever go back to having people in the office from dawn until dusk. It is just not going to happen. We are in an era of effective full employment now. Employees, in a way, probably have the upper hand and whip hand in a way they never had before. People have the right to say that this suits them better. Many great companies are offering not just that flexibility to work from home some days and work in the office some days, but also in-day flexibility. If people want to bring their kid to school or attend a recital they are having, they do not have to come in until 11 a.m. and they can make up the time at another time.

The position varies from industry to industry. Financial services tend to try more than others to get people back into the office. The more creative industries with skills like technologies and engineering are probably a bit more flexible. There are some industries where people have to be on site, for example, manufacturing. It varies by industry and geography. In the United States, not many people are coming into the office on the west coast. On the east coast, most people are back in the office. It is varied and it is not going to change. The best companies will recognise that a happy worker is a good worker and give people the flexibility they need.

Deputy David Stanton

One of the terms that is also used is that we are beyond full employment, which is fantastic to see. There is actually pressure getting workers. I read somewhere yesterday that there are over 200 vacancies for high-level construction workers at the moment which just cannot be filled. It is a big issue. I notice the IDA is a member of the Open Doors initiative, of which I am also a member, which is trying to encourage and support people from marginalised backgrounds to get employment.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

Yes.

Deputy David Stanton

Is it part of the IDA's strategy to engage with the companies in its portfolio to get them to look at that particular space? People who are marginalised can, with a little assistance, become productive employees, with all that goes with that for the individuals themselves, the company and so on.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

Open Doors is a great initiative. The issue with it is probably that not enough people know about it. Certainly, from chatting to companies, both in my past life and my current role, my experience is that getting good people is probably their number one priority at the moment. Making our client base more aware of that is something we can certainly look at.

Deputy David Stanton

The IDA has eight overseas offices in the United States - in Atlanta, Austin, Boston, Chicago, New York, northern California, southern California and Seattle.

It has one in Canada, in Toronto. I have been promoting the idea of having one in, for instance, Calgary, which is a big centre and Canada is a massive country. Does Mr. O'Rourke envisage the IDA expanding and opening more offices globally?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

At the moment, about 69 of our 360 people are abroad. The Deputy mentioned our US offices and asked if we would expand. Absolutely, we will. In some instances, we have gone into markets previously in a pathfinder way to have a look and see. Some of those pathfinders have then led to more permanent offices and some have not. As part of this strategy refresh, we will be looking at markets where we believe further opportunities for investment might arise and roll out a staggered approach to that via pathfinder in the first instance and potentially moving on to a full office.

Deputy David Stanton

The Speaker of the Senate of Canada is visiting at the moment. We have done some work with the friendship group. We looked at Canada as a case study for trade because this committee has responsibility for trade as well as enterprise. We took that as a case study and have done some work on it. I have met representatives from Calgary who are interested in engaging with the IDA and others.

Mr. O'Rourke mentioned the IDA's property portfolio. In my county, just to be parochial as we never are, but anyway-----

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I am married to a Cork woman.

Deputy David Stanton

There you go. In my county, as part of the old Amgen site in Ballyadam, 153 acres have been sitting fully serviced with a rail line at one side and a motorway on the other. It has been idle for years with nothing happening. Is Mr. O'Rourke aware of that site?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I am not, at the moment. I have been in the job for seven weeks and I am working my way through it.

Deputy David Stanton

I just wanted to bring it to his attention.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I am sure it is on the radar screen.

Deputy David Stanton

I take every opportunity to bring it up here because I think the road infrastructure is the problem. I just wanted to bring it to Mr. O'Rourke's attention.

Senator Garret Ahearn

I welcome Mr. O'Rourke and congratulate him on his new role. When members of the public speak about the IDA, job creation is always perceived to be in Dublin, but that is not the case anymore. In my county, Tipperary, Clonmel is a prime example of a regional town that has really benefited on the back of big multinational companies such as MSD, Boston Scientific and Abbott, which have given great employment to the town and region. The benefit goes beyond County Tipperary, reaching into Waterford and other counties. Mr. O'Rourke spoke about a changing market and a changing world. Has the pitch changed to bring companies to Ireland?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

It has altered a bit. For example, 20 years ago tax was a predominant consideration in site location. If I fast-forward to 2024, tax is important, but it is not the single dominant factor, far from it. We have evolved. In recent years, two thirds of all investments have come from companies already here. The reason they have expanded here is that word goes back to headquarters that Ireland is a great place to do business and the country really works.

Over my career, I have noticed that there is one thing that Irish people in multinational organisations are really good at, more so than in any other country I have seen. They are very good at understanding who runs the show back at headquarters, what the roadmap back at headquarters is, and the people they need to know back at headquarters in order to get Ireland to the front of the queue for the next wave. Irish people are really good at that.

As the pitch has evolved over the years, the single biggest issue now relates to track record and the fact that we do what it says on the tin. We deliver a quality service with great people and with access to the market. We are pro-inward investment. That track record is probably our single biggest factor. Access to the European market is now fully understood. That talent bit is important as is the fact that we are so welcoming to the people coming to meet the need we have. That is not the case in every country in Europe and it is seen as a positive here. The pitch alters not fundamentally, but the nuances change from time to time as we have to bring something new to the table.

Senator Garret Ahearn

Mr. O'Rourke has said he wants Ireland to be in the top two countries in Europe for attracting in companies. If companies are coming from America, the obvious decision will be to locate in Dublin or Cork. How often does the IDA convince companies that actually Clonmel, Athlone or Leitrim is the place to be? How difficult is that? How many successes has the IDA had?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

It is a lot. The first instruction everybody has is to win the project for Ireland. That is the first and overriding issue. Each person in the team has targets for the region. Dexcom in Athenry was a fantastic announcement recently. It has also recently taken up the naming rights for the sports ground in Galway for the Connacht rugby team. That is a fantastic example of winning it for Ireland in the first instance and then the mid-west winning it. Once the account person has won the project for Ireland with his or her team, and the company has agreed in principle to Ireland, their job is then to ask if we have our balanced portfolio this year. We may have got a couple of investments in Dublin but how are we doing in the eight regions? There is an element of making sure we look at this pretty quickly after we have won the mandate and then look at which region is next up for an investment.

Senator Garret Ahearn

This is a year of elections. Elections and politics play a key role in businesses and business decisions. Is what is happening in America, with what people would say is the fear of a second Donald Trump presidency, playing a role in the decisions American businesses are making? Have questions been asked about elections in Ireland and two different proposals being put forward by two different perspectives, groups that want to be in government in Ireland? Does the IDA get questions from companies in America asking about the political future in Ireland?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I am a bit of a US political junkie. There have been 14 US Presidents since the IDA was set up in 1949 and whether it is a Republican administration or a Democrat administration, Ireland has always done well. As such, I do not see the US election as having any real impact on inward investment in Ireland.

Regarding the Irish political landscape, at the end of the day, companies want two things. They want stability and predictability. Predictability does not mean that things cannot change; it just means that if they are going to change, there is a roadmap showing how the changes will occur. The IDA is agnostic when it comes to politics. We have had multiple different administrations since the IDA was set up in 1949, not just involving large parties but also small parties. We have always provided that political stability and, broadly speaking, predictability. I do not see it as a problem here.

Senator Garret Ahearn

Clonmel has a site which is co-owned by Tipperary County Council and the IDA. It is a business and technology park in Ballingarrane. It is quite a facility and it is totally full. There are plans to build a new centre to attract new businesses. Is the IDA still supportive of working with Tipperary County Council on that? Would Mr. O'Rourke and a group from the IDA be willing to visit Clonmel to look at that site?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

Absolutely.

Senator Garret Ahearn

Over the years, Clonmel has proven it is able to attract big multinationals and hold them for a significant amount of time.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I would be amazed if the IDA were not interested, although I do not have command of the detail. We will certainly bring it back to the property team to see what the story is and then get back to the Senator.

Senator Garret Ahearn

Would Mr. O'Rourke be willing to come to Clonmel?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

Yes. I would go anywhere.

Deputy Mick Barry

I want to talk about job losses in the tech sector. What has been happening internationally has been described by some as a jobs massacre. I believe that more than 30,000 jobs have been lost globally in the first six weeks of this year. I want to talk about how this impacts the area I represent, as a Deputy for Cork North-Central, the Cork city area. We are expecting details in the next week of job losses at VMware in Ballincollig and Blizzard in Blackpool.

This affects 364 jobs in Ballincollig and 164 at Blizzard, giving a total of 500 jobs. Those job losses will have a knock-on effect in the city and region. That particularly relates to VMware, which is a key player on the tech scene in the Cork area. There will be a lot of people, many of them with families, kids and mortgages, coming onto the tech job market at the same time. Does Mr. O'Rourke accept there will be a pinch point, for want of a better phrase, in respect of tech jobs in Cork in the next couple of months? What steps have been taken or will be taken to find replacement jobs and investment in that regard?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I am around long enough that this is probably the third or fourth wave of tech contraction I have seen in my career. Looking broadly at the numbers, last year the numbers in technology stayed broadly consistent despite the very high-profile lay-offs during the year. In the course of the year, the numbers in technology stayed approximately the same. That indicates the skills are transferable into other industries.

As regards the specificity of the companies referred to by the Deputy, that is an operational issue for the executive of IDA Ireland, but he can take it that if he knows about this, I would be amazed if the executive team is not also aware of it. I suspect that other employers in Cork that are doing very well in the tech sector might be on the look-out for staff. As I stated in response to Deputy Stanton, getting good people is the number one challenge for companies at the moment. If the people to whom the Deputy referred are going to come on the market in Cork, I would be very hopeful that many of them will be able to walk straight into jobs elsewhere. The Deputy can take it that the IDA will be aware of this issue and will be working on an overall basis to see how we can get them back into employment.

Deputy Mick Barry

Mr. O'Rourke is hopeful, and that is fair enough, but this situation will depend on the nuts and bolts and active intervention, with a prioritisation of jobs and investment. There is a particular scenario when that number of people in an area come onto the jobs market at the one time. People can handle being out of work for a couple of weeks or months, but mortgage and finance pressures start kicking in by the third or fourth month. I wish to pinpoint that as an issue in Cork in the coming period.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I was reading myself into the job in recent weeks. What tends to happen is that the companies give the IDA an early warning that this is happening and the IDA will then engage with them, first to see if the workers can be redeployed elsewhere. The IDA works very constructively to see how many jobs we can work with the company to try to preserve. It also works with Enterprise Ireland and other companies in the area with regard to the fact that there will be people coming onto the jobs market. The normal course of action when something like this happens is the IDA gets involved straightaway with the company in question, associated companies and EI to see if it can help with people who may be coming onto the jobs market in the next while. That will take place.

Deputy Mick Barry

We will keep a close eye on it. These companies have benefited from IDA grant aid and taxpayers' money. VMware has received more than €4 million since 2005. Microsoft, which has taken over Blizzard and is in the driving seat there, received €1.75 million in 2017 alone. A specific issue I wish to raise relates to companies that come in, take over a company based in Ireland and start dealing with the workforce that is based in Ireland and has contributed its labour and skills for many years. As in the case of Blizzard, many of the workers decide to join a trade union and want the company, when engaging on redundancies, to deal with the trade union as their representative. The company, however, which put its hand out for cash and took the cash, states that it will not negotiate on the number of jobs for redundancy, the package or whether the redundancies are voluntary. It tells the workers that it will speak to their representatives in the plant as part of the 30-day consultation but it is not a negotiation. Rather, it is about how the company is implementing the plans. I think that approach is wrong. I would be interested to hear Mr. O'Rourke's viewpoint on it.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

That is an issue for the executive, rather than for the board. The remit of the board is strategy and operation. The Deputy raised the issues of grants and union recognition. On the issue of grants, there will always be clauses that remain in place for a period, whereby if the jobs are not maintained for a certain period, the grants become repayable. Every year, a small number of grants come back into the IDA coffers from companies that have not met or maintained the commitments they made through the years. That clawback of grants is a well-understood process. I do not wish to get into the specifics of a particular company, but the IDA will always negotiate in Ireland's best interest and ensure it gets money back if promises are not kept.

With regard to union recognition, that is entirely an issue for the company. The IDA cannot be in a position where it is telling companies that they must or must not have union recognition. In its 75 years, the IDA has never taken a position on union recognition. It would not be right for it to do so.

Deputy Mick Barry

I will leave it there.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

Mr. O'Rourke and his team are very welcome. I congratulate him on his appointment and wish him the very best. Like many others, I am aware of his career. He should be congratulated on his influence on Irish tax policy through many years. I hope his influence on Government strategy will continue in future.

We can all accept that Ireland internationally is ticking a lot of boxes for corporate FDI. All parties, including the IDA, the Government and EI, are to be congratulated on their work in that regard. I refer to the regional development priority Mr. O'Rourke envisages for the IDA. As other members have taken the opportunity to speak about things local to them, I, too, will do so. Leaving aside the issues of energy structure, political stability and all that, companies looking at where to base an overseas operation for access to the European market consider issues including talent pool, connectivity and access to social infrastructure, such as housing, schools and the kind of quality of life dimension the families of company executives will want in an area. Which of those considerations does Mr. O'Rourke see as being pre-eminent? Which of those factors, including talent, education, social infrastructure and connectivity, are the most important?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

Through my career, I have seen different approaches. If the person making the decision will be moving to the proposed location, the company takes a great interest in schools, connectivity, housing and so on. If the person making the decision is not going, the company tends to be much more focused on what the numbers say and the return on investment. There is almost a correlation relating to whether the person making the decision will be going with the project or not. It depends. In some cases with which I have dealt through the years, it has been heritage. Some people wish to locate a business in a particular county as that is from where their ancestors came. There is no one truth that governs this. Clearly, companies will always do the numbers on return on investment. Things like access to third level education are important. It is desirable to be near a hub that provides good third level graduates. If it is a manufacturing business, it is important to be located in an area from which it can export its product. The services industry is more location agnostic. The finer points tend to be determined by whether the person making the decision is travelling with the project. I know Waterford is a 15-minute city. I presume the Deputy is about to make a pitch for it.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

Not so much the 15-minute city but I am glad that Mr. O'Rourke referenced a couple of areas that I will ask him to take a look at, and maybe go back to the Government on and one area concerns South East Technological University. He might not be aware that Waterford Institute of Technology, WIT, was the top performing institute of technology in the country, which garnered the largest amount of research outside of the national universities for a number of years. There has been no investment whatsoever in capital infrastructure on that campus for more than 20 years, despite it supposedly being the south east's economic driver.

Second, there is a €350 million project plan that was devised by the former bursar, who is now the president of SETU, that the Government has been sitting on. There has been no capital investment at all on the site other than the purchase of the €4 million brownfield site, even though we have 30 other acres of development land, and have had for the past ten years. Therefore, I suggest there is a significant problem in respect of the south east in terms of development and the developing SETU. I ask Mr. O'Rourke to please look at that with the Government.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

That is probably an issue for the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. In my previous career, we had an office in Waterford and we had many successful recruits from WIT so I am well aware of the quality of the south-east region on a personal level.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I thank Mr. O'Rourke for that. I also want to put on his radar the issue of connectivity. There has been no investment in the N24 and N25, which are the two roads out of the region, in nearly 30 years. Again, these are strategic infrastructure pieces that I am sure Mr. O'Rourke will address at some point as part of the strategy, theme and focus of IDA Ireland.

At present, we seek €7 million from the Government to support a new investment case for Waterford Airport. I engaged with a company recently that hopes to talk to IDA Ireland about setting up some small fintech firm in the south east. As this proposal for Waterford Airport has come up, the company has suddenly decided to start looking at Waterford, which it had not done already. Again, I ask Mr. O'Rourke to please talk to the Government because it would appear that there is not much appetite, despite the small amount of money required, within Government circles and particularly within the green criteria in government, to support the development of Waterford Airport.

To widen the discussion, as I have made my pitch for Waterford, IDA site visits are absolutely important for us. We do have a small number but nothing like the other regional cities. I wish to point out there has not been a large-scale IDA investment in Waterford in over eight years. West Pharmaceuticals was the last one. We have had a couple of small ones. It is because we do not have the infrastructure. In my opinion, the infrastructural piece is missing. I understand how difficult it is for the IDA to sell a region when there is competition from other regions that are better set up.

Mr. O'Rourke has referenced sustainability, the environmental challenge and the energy portion, which are all largely interlinked. When I entered the Dáil in 2020, there was an awful lot of talk here in the first year, about the development of wind energy in Ireland. Since then there has been a lot of wind and a lot of talk but not much has happened. If we look at where wind generation is going at the moment, again there is a large project being positioned off the south-east coast, I think it is going to be problematic because of its proximity to the shore and it is all fixed bottom. The solar industry is moving on. There have been some really keen developments in solar infrastructure in the last 12 months and that is an area that can gain very quickly. We have lots of agricultural farm sheds in the country that could be converted to solar but we need grants to effect that. Both Japan and Germany are basing a lot of their future energy provision around possible hydrogen development. What are Mr. O'Rourke's thoughts about Ireland becoming a key enabler of that strategy?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

As members will know, there has been a successful auction of offshore wind. It is the first successful one we have had. To the Deputy's last point, and I think it is really important and again we are looking well into the future, some people have talked about Ireland becoming an exporter of energy in the future. I think that would be an opportunity missed. I think that would be a bit like, back in the day, exporting live cattle on the hoof. The things we could do with that excess of energy in developing hydrogen opportunities in bringing back industries like the manufacture of steel and concrete. If we manage to become a net surplus generator of renewable and reliable energy then we should not just export it but should be asking what industries can we build around hydrogen and in industries that we have been in before. That is the real opportunity for us over the next decade.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I thank Mr. O'Rourke.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I congratulate Mr. O'Rourke on his appointment. It is interesting to see that the leadership is moving from a Kerry-Louth combination to a Westmeath-Leitrim one. I would like to pay tribute to the outgoing Kerry-Louth combination. I really believe Mr. Frank Ryan made an exceptional contribution and so did Mr. Martin Shanahan. The figures speak for themselves. The doubling of employment in the period of their involvement and huge success in regional spread, which was not a given at the time they started.

I want to ask the Mr. O'Rourke about what he sees as strategic threats and how he assesses threats and opportunities. In particular, there is a sort of reshoring protectionism occurring and I wonder whether that will impact some of the bigger players that IDA Ireland has. There is a need to seriously regulate artificial intelligence in the interests of protecting human endeavour. We will become a centre of the oversight of any new rules and I wonder how that will impact on our approach.

The chairperson designate mentioned sustainability. I do not know. I certainly know, if one looks at indigenous companies, we have not moved to build the capacity to meet that challenge in Ireland. Whether we have done it in overseas companies is a question.

In terms of threats, we have the continuing BEPS process and the whole tax issue. I saw a former competitor of yours with an article in the newspaper saying that Ireland needed to sharpen up its tax offering in areas and so on. I would like to hear his views on some of those strategic threats.

Next, I want to hear Mr. O'Rourke's views on the cap on data centre capacity and whether that impinges on the IDA's approach. It is a short-term difficulty in terms of power but a huge long-term opportunity to have data centres in Ireland using the huge renewable capacity that we hope to build. The management of that pathway seems to me to be a strategic issue.

It is worth asking, and I do not want to put Mr. O'Rourke in an embarrassing position but he has come from a company that had massive professional and commercial dealings with FDI. Does he envisage having to create some sort of separation between his new and old roles? I know that he has retired but I ask in terms of protecting himself and everyone else in order that there can be no suggestion that anyone is being favoured. I would like to hear him address the issue rather than leave it unsaid and have people wonder about it.

Last, it seems to me that strategic leadership within companies is the lowest hanging fruit in terms of us winning new business or adapting to these new challenges. How far down the road is the IDA now in investing in capacity? I mean much like Enterprise Ireland has done very successfully with some of its now global companies but once small operations. Do we need to have the same approach to building strategic leadership in overseas companies?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

There was a lot there and I will try to get to it. The question about my new and old roles made me smile. I am a bit like a Deputy who has moved parties. I mean one will still have friends in one's old party but one has moved. In the same way, I have retired now and there is nothing as ex as an ex-managing partner as well. I wish my old firm well but they have moved on and I have moved on and that is that.

I will next discus the interesting question on data centres. We have about 80 data centres at the moment. First, I will put forward the proposition that data centres are a good thing. Why are they a good thing? At the end of the day they are a critical part of our digital infrastructure and anchoring the technological operations that are here. They play a part in our everyday lives whether it is video-conference calls, health records or whatever. Data centres are a good thing. The problem we have at the moment is a supply of renewable energy to power the incremental data centres we have got on.

Earlier I mentioned a talk that Mr. Brendan Tuohy gave as chair of EirGrid in UCC earlier this month.

He talked about supply of up to 10 GW by 2030, of which 80% would be renewable. At the moment, we are between 6 GW and 7 GW. For making the jump from here to there, he postulated 1.6 GW might be from heavy energy users, another 1 GW might be electric vehicles and the rest might be natural growth of 4% to 5% in the economy in the coming years. This goes to a question the Deputy asked earlier. If we can get to 2030 with a supply of 10 GW, 80% of which is renewable, we will have bridged the next six years exceptionally well. Of the strategic challenges facing the country, the ones in our control are delivering on renewable energy, water, the grid system and housing in the next six years. If we can deliver on the plans we have in place for those, we will manage that transition. I have a slight concern that period could be a littlle bumpy if demand gets ahead of the supply of renewable energy. Data centres are good and we should accommodate them as much as we can. If we get to our planned supply of energy and renewable energy by 2030, we will be fine. It may be bumpy along the way as we try to get more data centres in and are not far enough advanced at the time. The Government is producing an industrial policy on renewable generation, wind in particular, which is due out in the next couple of months from the Department. That will hopefully lay out the roadmap for the next five or six years.

I have mentioned the delivery challenges within our control - renewables, water, the grid and housing. On the geopolitical ones, in a way near-shoring and friend-shoring are playing to us. One thing Covid taught many companies was their supply chains were too stretched. Something like Covid, or war in Ukraine or the Middle East, is a dislocative event to supply chains and causes angst in the system. As a result, Ireland looks more attractive because it is stable, predictable and far removed from centres of ongoing war and the humanitarian disasters that accompany them. We are a friendly neutral nation that is pro-business and pro-inward investment. People ask if I worry about getting into a more protectionist era, but if we get into a protectionist era with a fortress US and a fortress Europe, global companies will have to have a foot in both camps and operations in both camps, which will help us. While the geopolitical landscape is in flux, we are well positioned to take care of that.

The Deputy mentioned tax. We have seen in the past three or four years a massive increase in corporate tax receipts, fuelled predominantly by foreign direct investment companies. That is not a surprise for those who have worked in tax because the whole OECD proposal since 2014 was designed to say you cannot have profits in far-off locations where you have no activity and that you have to align your activity and your profits. We have successfully done that with our multinationals in recent years and generated tax benefits from it. There will be a slight retreat from the current numbers. In simple terms, 100 years ago the big countries decided the tax rules would work as follows: you will pay tax where you have a physical location; if you do not have a physical location, you will not pay any tax. Mail-order businesses never paid tax in the countries they sold into but it was hard to penetrate a market if you did not have people on the ground. The world has moved on and the big countries are saying they need to change the tax rules. They are looking to change them to say that if you sell into a country, even if you do not have a physical presence there, you will pay some tax there. That will see us giving away some of the tax we collect from companies whose centre for operations is here and, therefore, whose tax is paid here. Some of that tax will have to go to the countries into which they sell. We signed up to that a couple of years back but the US have not signed up to it yet - and they are the ones who are the biggest proponents of this. I still think we are in a great place.

This came home to me a few years back during the OSCE discussions when I was having a discussion with a global head of tax of one of the biggest companies in the world. I said to him that he had never asked me whether the 12.5% rate would move or not, and his answer was that whatever way the landscape played out, Ireland would be at the competitive end of it so he was not worried. That is where we need to be. We need a fair tax system recognised globally and by the OSCE as fair. We need a competitive tax system. We are nimble and can change legislation when needed to get a better result for Ireland and for inward investment. It is probably the optimist in me. The things under our control I think we can manage over the next five or six years. The geopolitical thing I think we can manage. To answer the Deputy's last question, it is about making sure, with the challenge of sustainability, decarbonisation, artificial intelligence and digitisation, we are right on the shoulder of our clients helping them with that. Strategic leadership is a key part of that and making sure Irish local management understand what their companies' global roadmap is, where it is going and how we use our influence to make sure Ireland is on the next iteration of that global roadmap. That is the challenge.

We have already set up a programme in IDA. It is relatively small at the moment but we run an academy for business leaders in multinationals to help them meet their peers. It can be a lonely job sometimes to run a multinational. You do not really have a peer network. We are trying to help them create that network to learn best practices and give them the tools to influence the global roadmap back at headquarters. We are on it. It is a challenging environment for the next few years but one the IDA is capable of succeeding in.

Deputy James O'Connor

I congratulate Mr. O'Rourke on his role. I wish him well and am sure his extensive service in the private sector will be a great help to the IDA. I also wish his predecessor well.

I do not want to be overly parochial but I come from an area of Cork East that has long yearned for IDA focus and investment because there were huge issues with long-term unemployment. Youghal was once a thriving hub of light industry around textiles and other areas that, unfortunately, there is no longer a demand for. There was a lot of relocation of labour to eastern Europe. Kodak, Power Products, the famed Youghal Carpets and other employers had about 3,000 people working in the town. Around the mid-1990s, the tide really turned and, by 2005, all of those major employers had left. We have a number of IDA facilities locally that have not really been in use. There are many empty factories, some of them now converted into housing estates. It is a great shame. I do not have to tell IDA board members or officials how much it means to a rural town to have a major employer. Look at what Haleon, formerly GSK, has done for Dungarvan. Eurofins and other employers have come to Dungarvan as a consequence of having that major employer. From a corporate social responsibility perspective, community benefit funds have made a huge difference.

The Celtic interconnector is a huge opportunity. The Celtic interconnector from Brittany, France is landing in Claycastle, Youghal. There are 700 MW of electricity coming with it, in addition to a fibre-optic cable landing on Claycastle beach. That cable, from an employment perspective, sparks my interest in seeing if Youghal can be be a centre for financial services, data centre construction and growth in that area. From my engagement locally, there seems to be more focus at Little Island, which is already jammed with successful businesses. The IDA park is up the road in Carrigtwohill and companies in that area like Stryker and Millipore have thousands of people working there. It has been a huge part of the work IDA has done and the success it has achieved locally. I am looking at that little corner that to me is very important but it is struggling.

I know the board's remit is not necessarily operations but it is strategy. I have seen the success the IDA has had in towns like Athlone, where Mr. O'Rourke has well-established connections. Enniscorthy, Clonmel, Cavan town, Tralee, Castlebar, Monaghan and Sligo all have IDA advanced hubs and solutions facilities. Would the IDA look at that for my home town and the people locally, who are more than deserving of it?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I am well aware of Cork East because I am married to a Corkwoman. I have been down there. I mentioned before the Deputy came in that IDA Ireland does not look at counties or towns but at regions. We have eight regions. This is because the spillover effect tends to go far beyond the town in which an enterprise locates and can bleed into neighbouring counties and areas. However, the Deputy can take it that while the specific issue of where enterprises go is a matter for the executive, the board we will be ensuring regionalisation and balancing investment in the eight regions as much as it can. Therefore, if we see areas that have not received the right amount of investment relative to others, we will need to direct investment towards them. With regard to equality, I promise the Deputy that we will ensure the regions are fairly treated. The target of having over 50% of investment outside the Dublin area has been met and will be exceeded when the four-year period ends, which will be at the end of this year. The balance between the regions is as important as the balance between Dublin and the rest of the country.

Deputy James O'Connor

I understand and appreciate that. In east Cork, around the periphery of Cork city, it is no secret that there have been great achievements. However, IDA Ireland advance hubs have a role. To my great interest, I learned during the pandemic that many multinationals will not consider an external base unless they have secure premises. The likes of Apple and other major multinational tech or pharmaceutical firms do not want workers working in remote-working hubs unless they have a secure facility. In east Cork, particularly Youghal, this might be worth examining. The number of people who commute to Cork city daily from Dungarvan and Youghal along the country's southern corridor, the N25, is enormous. From a political perspective locally, what I call for would be much appreciated. I understand the prism through which IDA Ireland has to do its work and I am in no way critical of that, but I ask Mr. O'Rourke to acknowledge that there are consequences for towns that have had major long-term structural problems owing to the loss of so much employment over a relatively short period. This leaves behind much deprivation and poverty. The State, through IDA Ireland and other organisations, has a role to address this, where possible. A little forward thinking could account for the Celtic interconnector, which I believe has a role owing to the fibre-optic cables coming in from France, connecting continental Europe to Ireland directly by way of the largest-ever bilateral capital infrastructure project involving France and Ireland. If Mr. O'Rourke could consider this and have a conversation with Mr. Michael Lohan or other senior executives within IDA Ireland, I would appreciate it. I would also appreciate it if the executives visited the town.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

We will certainly feed that back in. I understand exactly what the Deputy means in that, for Gentex in Athlone, which was a textile manufacturer for many years, the tide had gone out by the late 1970s. However, other industries, such as Elan, came in. I understand the impact of the disappearance of a large traditional employer on a town and also the efforts needed to reinvigorate such a town. We will certainly relay the Deputy's point to the executive.

Deputy James O'Connor

I thank Mr. O'Rourke.

Deputy David Stanton

I have just one or two other issues I want to raise. A referendum on the Unified Patent Court is coming up in June. I am sure Mr. O'Rourke is aware of it. It is very important and we have done some work on it here. I am not sure whether Mr. O'Rourke could give a view on the impact it could have on companies and businesses within the IDA Ireland portfolio.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I do not have command of the detail on that yet. I could talk at a high level but would prefer to have command of the detail before doing so.

Deputy David Stanton

That is okay. Mr. O'Rourke might revert to us on that.

A question I have been raising quite a bit here, on which I have tabled parliamentary questions for the Minister for Justice this week and which I raised last week and the week before, concerns intra-company transfer employment permits. Several people and companies have raised this with me. We spoke about skill levels. One way of achieving high skill levels is to bring people in from a sister company or sister facility in another jurisdiction. While they might stay here for several years and their partners or spouses can come with them, those partners and spouses are not allowed to work. Some companies have told me that some of their top-level technical staff decided not to come here as a consequence, to the detriment of our ability to improve skills here. This is a matter that the Department of Justice should be aware of. I want to make IDA Ireland aware of it. I am not sure if it is. There are a couple of hundred intra-company transfers every year. The transfer of knowledge, skills and leadership is very important for companies. I am not sure whether IDA Ireland has a view on this. I think it has made a submission stating it is in favour of the change in this area, but I just wanted to bring it up here because I feel strongly about it.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I am aware of that issue. We will ensure the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is aware of it. That Department will follow up with the Deputy on it.

Deputy David Stanton

In fairness, I believe the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is very much in favour of this, but it is a matter of that Department and the Department of Justice coming together and changing the legislation or rules to achieve what is required. I am told by some companies that the existing arrangements are having a detrimental effect.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

Absolutely.

Deputy David Stanton

Deputy Bruton spoke about data centres. This matter is very important. Is IDA Ireland doing anything to encourage companies to establish their own renewable energy systems on the roofs of buildings and so on? Are there any incentives for companies to do that? I am referring to solar in particular.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

The short answer is "Yes". Also, the push is coming from within the organisations themselves. The Deputy can take it that it is happening within the organisations, and we are supporting them to do what is envisaged locally.

Deputy David Stanton

In what way are we supporting them?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I think we have grant aid available for that. It is also a question of making the companies aware of what peers are doing. I have found that there has been much networking over the past couple of years to find out what others are doing. It is not a matter of competition between companies, so they are trying to find out what the best practice is. It is quite well advanced among local subsidiaries.

Deputy David Stanton

Mr. O'Rourke might give us some details in a note on the assistance IDA Ireland is giving the companies.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

They are predominantly in the research and development area.

Deputy David Stanton

I strongly support my constituency colleague concerning Youghal. We are both well aware that the town once had full employment, going back to the 1960s, but that all the traditional jobs closed. Because the town is cut off from everywhere else, being in a cul-de-sac on its own, it may be an area that Mr. O'Rourke could pay attention to. Perhaps he could ask the board to consider this. I strongly support Deputy O'Connor regarding what he said in this regard. It is very important.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

We will transmit that back.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome Mr. O'Rourke, the new chairperson of IDA Ireland. I am based in Ballinasloe, so I am a very close neighbour to him in Athlone. I represent Roscommon–Galway. We are going to have the twentieth anniversary of Jazz Pharmaceuticals. The Minister of State, Deputy Neal Richmond, will be coming down to visit us next Friday. He will be examining his remit in terms of local enterprise offices and connecting them to industry in Roscommon town.

My colleague Deputy Bruton mentioned the action plan for jobs and the work done in this regard. The Deputy has been one of the key drivers of the plan. The work done was absolutely phenomenal and it is a true credit to the Deputy. I know about this because I worked in Science Foundation Ireland at the time in question. I was the person who saw the action plan for jobs and knew there were certain tasks our agency had to ensure would be done. Each agency had responsibility in this regard. At the time in question, from 2012 to 2014, the attention to detail and focus were incredible, not just within one Department but across Departments. This was innovative at the time. I do not know whether the connection between Departments had ever been as established as it was at that point. Suddenly there was very much a Team Ireland effort. I hope and presume this continues in terms of the networks and relationships. I would like to see the engagement continue across various Departments with respect to delivery. I am thinking in particular of the likes of Monksland, a true pharma driver in Athlone, as Mr. O'Rourke will be aware. We have the likes of Alexion and Alkermes. Alexion has recently invested in the area. One can see the construction from the motorway and the brand-new developments.

When speaking to IDA Ireland officials, housing and access thereto arise. The question of how to develop housing is one that we consider in Ballinasloe as well. It is a question of our being able to tell companies we have a wonderful location to base themselves and that they will be connected to the Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, and have a huge workforce within an hour's drive by motorway or within a catchment that includes at least four or five counties.

The importance of development in the midlands is crucial because it has a huge impact. I look at the IDA annual report, and at how in 2022 some 52% of investments were regional, balanced wins. I acknowledge the teams I work closely with, which is IDA Ireland west. I work closely with Ricky Conneely and Imed Abnoun. I have a question for Mr. O'Rourke in his new role. I see a lot of things. I worked in health with Saolta in CHO 2, which is primary care in counties Roscommon, Galway and Mayo. That will change with the new regional ways of looking at health. In education there are now technological universities like ATU in Galway city and the regional campuses are becoming important. There can sometimes be core thinking when the IDA is looking toward the east and dealing with counties Longford and Westmeath. How do we build connectivity between the different IDA Ireland regional teams in an area like Athlone? The Athlone catchment covers an area within approximately one hour of Athlone city. There are a lot of informal connections and a good chamber of commerce. I am taking that as one example of an area. There is also the west, which is wonderful and the best place. When there are agencies working hard across the river how do we ensure there is attention to detail to say there is an opportunity for places like Ballinasloe, which I am looking at? How do we develop and attract industry into a place that was perhaps more traditional? We are now driving a focus on bringing in supply side companies, maybe some of our major FDI multinationals. Does Mr. O'Rourke have any thoughts?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I thank the Senator for extolling the virtues of Athlone city. We are not a city yet. We are working on it. That is the next jump.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Visualise.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

Absolutely. The Senator also mentioned the university. My grandfather, who was a Member of these Houses, was heavily involved in establishing what was then Athlone Regional Technical College. She is right that the action programme for jobs was probably the best example, in the past 20 years or more, of a whole-of-government approach. Departmental and agency boundaries were pushed to one side and people had real targets and initiatives that had to deliver. So far in this century it is probably the resounding success of Government policy when it comes to employment. It was fantastic. That understanding still reverberates a bit throughout the system. I mentioned earlier the challenges we face on the grid, water, electricity and housing. They will require a whole-of-government approach in some areas too. In my seven weeks in the job, I have met some of my peers - chairs of some of the other key agencies - and we recognise it requires that coming together of agencies and Departments to do it.

In terms of the IDA, we win the mandate for Ireland and then try to get it out to the regions. All of the teams have regional targets, so we are trying to make sure there is balanced investment between the eight regions we report on. Some members here would say they would prefer if it was focused on towns or counties. However, regions are the best way because of the spillover effect. The Senator mentioned that if there is something in Monkstown, Athlone, it has an impact on Roscommon, east Galway, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly and that is only within a 30-minute drive of the town. There is good connectivity between the various IDA regional teams. There is good connectivity between the regional teams, the local authorities and the local chamber of commerce. I was in Athlone last Friday. What I see of the connectivity between the IDA and local stakeholders is still strong. It is understandable why the Senator might say Ballinasloe might be better than Athlone for certain things, and that is right. From an IDA regional perspective, it is looking at the region and asking if it is balanced vis-a-vis the other region? That interactivity will continue. I find the best cases are made by people like the Senator or the local chamber of commerce, who ask if we can consider Ballinasloe for this. That feeds into the thinking. When there is more promotion of towns or counties by stakeholders it seeps into the psyche.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Mr. O'Rourke mentioned water infrastructure and wastewater treatment plants. When we look at developing our towns and trying to get housing, this is one of the major constraints we have. If you talk to anybody in IDA Ireland about this, he or she will say there is no housing available in an area for someone to rent or live in and we have pressure points on this. What is the role of the IDA? How will it feed into Irish Water at national level? How does it tell Irish Water that 52% of its investment is regional, that it now wants to invest into other regions that have not seen investment but there are constraints? How does it tell the utility that these are the constraints and here is its voice? What does IDA Ireland envisage can be done in those terms? How do we invest in that type of infrastructure? It is one of those things. It is maybe not something that comes up in the IDA annual report. I do not know if I see it in here, but it is a constraint.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

It absolutely is. I was reading myself into the role at the start of the year. At one level, IDA's role is not to solve the problems of the world in terms of housing, water or electricity. I do not mean that to sound trite but our role is really about getting those messages from inward investment and transmitting and amplifying them to the right places within the system to say we have a water problem in whatever is the area or a grid connection problem somewhere else. The CEO meets regularly with the other agencies, and as chairman at the start of that programme, I will be meeting my counterparts in the key agencies to make sure we are aligned from a strategic perspective. The CEO will meet with his peers. I will meet with my peers to make sure of, not quite a whole of government approach, but a whole of agency approach. We will obviously be feeding back to our parent Departments too. It is trying to get the spirit of the previous approach - if you look at jobs more than a decade ago - of always being on the same page singing the same song and making sure we are delivering.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I appreciate that he will have a regional focus, and it is important to understand the constraints for towns in regional areas that do not exist for our larger city centre friends. I expect that focus would be front and centre. I know it is not the only thing.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

No, but the Senator is right.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It is part of everything else. We will not win investments in regional areas if we do not have this. We need to fight for this. I would see IDA Ireland saying that it wants to see more regional investment and asking why it is not happening. It is clear why it is not happening. I hope that is something that will be highlighted in Mr. O'Rourke's tenure.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

As I said earlier, with a chairman from County Westmeath and a chief executive from County Leitrim, we will not be forgetting. The country has moved to a more central axis.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I hope we might see him next Friday too. He would be very welcome

An Cathaoirleach

I will briefly put on record the good jobs we have had in the past number of years in my own constituency of Limerick. It has been fantastic. There have been Eli Lilly, Dell, Analog Devices, Carelon and lots of others. Are there any plans for additional property or site purchases in the mid-west region? Castletroy industrial estate is probably almost full. I know Raheen business park is full. Eli Lilly is finishing that off. The issue raised by others about housing is the number one priority. I understand some companies, including Eli Lilly and others, are either buying the houses themselves for their employees or going through long-term leases with different builders. That is good for the company but unfortunately, it means people trying to buy houses themselves are being locked out. Can Mr. O'Rourke give us a flavour of what sort of stuff the IDA has purchased or intends to purchase in the mid-west?

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

That would primarily be an issue for the executive but I could not even talk about it. The minute I say we are looking at buying somewhere in County Westmeath, there would be a number of landholders with their ears up immediately. It is an executive issue. Even when we talk at a strategic level and look at the regions, we have to be extraordinarily careful about where we say we are buying next for fear that they see us coming. However, regional balance is again to the forefront of our strategic thinking.

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes our consideration of the matter today. I thank the representatives for assisting the committee in its consideration of this important matter. This concludes the committee's business in public session. I propose the committee goes into private session to consider other business. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Feargal O'Rourke

I would like to make one final comment. In preparing for this I watched some previous sittings. The first thing everybody says is that they are delighted and honoured to be here, and they look like they would rather be at the dentist than appearing before the committee.

I am delighted to be here. Five members of my family have served in both Houses in the past 50 or 60 years. I understand the commitment that politicians make and the public service they give so I am genuinely honoured to be here. I am the black sheep of my family as I went into private business rather than the other side of the House. I acknowledge the work members do and the commitment they make.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. O'Rourke.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.10 a.m. and adjourned at 11.30 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 28 February 2024.